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Does a character lose his shield bonus to AC if he uses a bow while carrying a buckler? The rules only mention not getting any penalties and adding that the character loses his shield bonus if he uses a weapon in his off-hand, but it's debatable if the bow is used in the off-hand.
I'd say a character loses his shield bonus, but it's probably better to get some additional input on this (and maybe even an official answer).
A bow requires two hands to use.
Therefore, a character firing a bow is using the arm holding the buckler to attack with a weapon.
Therefore, said character will lose the buckler's shield bonus to AC.
Would you allow them to keep the shield bonus if they attacked two-handed with a Greatsword?
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Technically, it could be ruled that the off-hand in this case holds an arrow. I wouldn't buy that argument for a minute though.
You do lose your Shield Bonus to AC when firing a bow as it is a two-handed weapon. The AC bonus returns at the beginning of your next turn, and will be retained until you use your buckler arm for something other than holding a light object, such as firing the bow again.
I'm going to ignore the rules and look at fight choreography. You can have an archer, or even a battalion of archers, knock an arrow, loose it, then hide behind their shield(s). Watch any old Ivanhoe epic. Archers do not loose arrows then thrust forth their manly chests so the opposing archers have a clear target. And arrows are not bullets. You have time to see one coming at you and raise a defense or get out of the way.
Yes, yes, RAW! RAW! My GM calling is that if the rules fail to reflect both real world historic warfare and Hollywood epics based on same, then the rules are wrong. If your character is wearing a buckler that a historic archer would have worn, then you get the armor bonus, same as the historic archer.
Just wanted to say that under PFRPG you do lose buckler AC now for lots of things including using a bow. Under 3.5 you did not.
..And arrows are not bullets. You have time to see one coming at you and raise a defense or get out of the way.
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An arrow is not a bullet which can travel at 800+ feat per second. On the other hand a arrow travels at around 200 feat per second. So if you are within 200feet of an archer shooting at you the arrow reaches you in one second. So even if you saw the arrow leave the bow you really could not dodge the arrow as most peoples reactions times are about 1.3 seconds. I think your thinking of very long range angled shots you see when two medieval armies face each other. In that case yes you could see them coming as they are falling from a very far away and have lost most of their speed.
I'm going to ignore the rules and look at fight choreography. You can have an archer, or even a battalion of archers, knock an arrow, loose it, then hide behind their shield(s). Watch any old Ivanhoe epic. Archers do not loose arrows then thrust forth their manly chests so the opposing archers have a clear target. And arrows are not bullets. You have time to see one coming at you and raise a defense or get out of the way.
Yes, yes, RAW! RAW! My GM calling is that if the rules fail to reflect both real world historic warfare and Hollywood epics based on same, then the rules are wrong. If your character is wearing a buckler that a historic archer would have worn, then you get the armor bonus, same as the historic archer.
Maybe doing it as Std action for a single attack and Move action to *equip* the buckler without having to take it out or pick it up. You could still get a 5' step and it might just be RAW.
More than fair--it's logical.
Not to let the rules get in the way or anything but:
"You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it."
Seems to me you could use the bow without penalty (i.e. losing your sheild bonus) as the rules state.
Just sayin
Not to let the rules get in the way or anything but:
"You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it."
Seems to me you could use the bow without penalty (i.e. losing your sheild bonus) as the rules state.
Just sayin
Yes that is the full rule for 3.5 and it did work then, but in PFRPG added the following to a buckler: "In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you lose the buckler's AC bonus until your next turn."
Heck even casting now with a buckler causes you to lose the buckler now also."You can cast a spell with somatic components using your shield arm, but you lose the buckler's AC bonus until your next turn." Not in agreement with this change, but that is how it is now. =(
I don't know ShadowChemosh... I dodge paintballs flying at me at 300fps all the time and I'm not a small guy. Average range is 20-30 yards?
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--Vrock Star!
Well in the IL area no paintball field has allowed 300fps speeds in over 16 years. Of course that was back when a field was several acres in size. =) Even then the highest fields I use to go to allot was 230fps and I always ran my gun hot at 280fps. Even at over a 100ft it was very rare to dodge one of my paintballs and if they did hit at under 100ft meant it left a welt or a large black and blue mark on the person.
At 50ft or less my paintballs broke the skin and you actually bleed. This was one of the biggest reasons paintball guns speeds fell quickly over the last 10 years. Last time I went to an indoor range in IL the speeds where barely over 100fps.
So my point would be to ask if it was any time recent and you sure 300fps is correct? Maybe its different in different states. Otherwise its simple physics as an average person has about a 1.3 second reaction time. Hence when driving their is a 2 second rule for following. So if a bullet/arrow only takes 1 second to reach its target its pretty hard to figure without a little luck how you dodge the projectile.
Hate to use a show like Deadliest Warrior, but they used the same logic when dealing with thrown spears and axes. If you are within the range that the weapon reaches its target in 1 second the ability to dodge the projectile is almost impossible.
Last thing to say is you are correct as I have dodged paintballs my self. Though always from a good distance 100+ft away and I was looking directly at the person and gun when the paintball left the gun. Otherwise it was just pure luck to dodge them.
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Just wanted to say that under PFRPG you do lose buckler AC now for lots of things including using a bow. Under 3.5 you did not.
An arrow is not a bullet which can travel at 800+ feat per second. On the other hand a arrow travels at around 200 feat per second. So if you are within 200feet of an archer shooting at you the arrow reaches you in one second. So even if you saw the arrow leave the bow you really could not dodge the arrow as most peoples reactions times are about 1.3 seconds. I think your thinking of very long range angled shots you see when two medieval armies face each other. In that case yes you could see them coming as they are falling from a very far away and have lost most of their speed...And arrows are not bullets. You have time to see one coming at you and raise a defense or get out of the way.
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actually most people's reaction times are around 7/10 of a second...for something which is expected, .5 to acquire visually, .2 seconds to react physically.
times increase based upon unexpected occurrences to 1.25 seconds (in the range you said) and totally unexpected (1.5 seconds)
I had always understood that the buckler was invented for archers. On that ground alone, I'd say they keep the bonus.
actually most people's reaction times are around 3/4 of a second...Just wanted to say that under PFRPG you do lose buckler AC now for lots of things including using a bow. Under 3.5 you did not.
An arrow is not a bullet which can travel at 800+ feat per second. On the other hand a arrow travels at around 200 feat per second. So if you are within 200feet of an archer shooting at you the arrow reaches you in one second. So even if you saw the arrow leave the bow you really could not dodge the arrow as most peoples reactions times are about 1.3 seconds. I think your thinking of very long range angled shots you see when two medieval armies face each other. In that case yes you could see them coming as they are falling from a very far away and have lost most of their speed...And arrows are not bullets. You have time to see one coming at you and raise a defense or get out of the way.
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Mythbusters covered this. They brought in a professional Ninja. HIS reaction time was about 6/10ths of a second. Average Mythbusters were about 1.5 seconds.
The Ninja was able to grab an arrow fired at 75% pull at 50 feet about once out of 10 times. He was able to dodge/touch it about 5 out of 10 times. Note that they were not aiming at him but aiming beside him.
At full pull, you just are not going to dodge an arrow at 100ft or less, and have a VERY poor chance of getting a one pound steel buckler directly between you and the archer, even if you are prepared and watching for it.
I had always understood that the buckler was invented for archers. On that ground alone, I'd say they keep the bonus.
I think you may be right, but I don't think the buckler was for defending against arrows or such. It was for the archer in case someone got into hand to hand range and he had to fall back to the short sword or dagger on his hip.
At full pull, you just are not going to dodge an arrow at 100ft or less, and have a VERY poor chance of getting a one pound steel buckler directly between you and the archer, even if you are prepared and watching for it.
That's why a buckler is only a +1 armor bonus--the chance that it's going to help is very small, but there is still a chance.
And yes, there are magical bucklers with better bonuses, but then there are magical amulets with better bonuses too. If it's magic, it sort of by definition violates regular probability.
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Well in the IL area no paintball field has allowed 300fps speeds in over 16 years. Of course that was back when a field was several acres in size. =) Even then the highest fields I use to go to allot was 230fps and I always ran my gun hot at 280fps. Even at over a 100ft it was very rare to dodge one of my paintballs and if they did hit at under 100ft meant it left a welt or a large black and blue mark on the person.I don't know ShadowChemosh... I dodge paintballs flying at me at 300fps all the time and I'm not a small guy. Average range is 20-30 yards?
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--Vrock Star!
The field limits at Hell Survivors (my home field near detroit) is 289fps... which for all intents and purposes is aboot 300fps. And I've only ever bruised from a paintball hit within 10 feet. But then again I'm well padded ;-)
--Vrock n' Load!
If a bow fires at 200fps, and they're standing at 50ft, that's 1/4 of a second from release...
75% pull would be 150fps, so at 50ft, that would be 1/3 of a second from release...
not 6/10th of a second, but a little over 3/10 of a second. correct?
Yeah, if it fires at 200 fps, it's 3/10 of a second. If it fires at 100fps, it's about 6/10 of a second.
Either way, it's very very hard. I don't think the Mythbuster's had the best bows in the world either.
Loses Shield AC, but doesn't receive a penalty to attack rolls.
End of story.
(P.S. Which episode of Mythbusters?)
Episode 109
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The field limits at Hell Survivors (my home field near detroit) is 289fps... which for all intents and purposes is aboot 300fps. And I've only ever bruised from a paintball hit within 10 feet. But then again I'm well padded ;-)--Vrock n' Load!
[Thread jack for a minute.] If fields around me kept good speeds like that I probably still play, but Detroit is a nice 5 hour drive. =(
I actually got kicked off a field mid day when they did a random test of my gun and it was clocked over 300+fps. Its an older buder sniper that is still pump action and when it got hot outside the gun actually shot faster.
I use to always come back from games with welts and black and blue marks and so did most of my buddies. When everything changed to speed ball with really small fields like 100ft by 100ft I gave up the game as it was not what I wanted. It all came down to spray and pray and buy more paintballs from the fields. Its also when the gun speeds started to get slower and slower which I guess made sense as you where so darn close to other people. Unfortunately the slower the paintballs went the more inaccurate they fly which just increased the spray and pray methods that the fields where hoping would make them more money....
[/thread jack over]
actually most people's reaction times are around 7/10 of a second...for something which is expected, .5 to acquire visually, .2 seconds to react physically.
Hate to break it to you, but you're waaaayyyy off on the reaction times.
At least according to our friends at Wikipedia and backed up by some fairly formidable studies (linked from the same), the average simple reaction time (which includes both acquisition and response) is closer to 1/4 of a second (215 milliseconds) for visual cues.
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Note the sentence includes "casting with your shield arm", most casts can be done one handed so if you cast with your main hand you can still get the shield bonus with the other. This of course means your main hand must be free.Most of this is common sense; you need to move a shield in order to block with it. If you're doing anything else with the shield arm, you're not blocking. However you do have that other arm to do stuff with, whether it's striking with a sword, firing (but not loading) a one handed crossbow, shooting a wand, casting a spell.
Yes the shield arm, but that is what it was used heavily for by clerics and Warmages. As they could keep a weapon in hand and cast using the buckler hand in 3.5. I am not going to get into 'its common sense' as I have never cast a spell so can't back it up with real world argument.
What I do know is that expecting players to remember the loss of the buckler AC for one round when they cast is asking allot. Its also another situational modifier that must be tracked by the DM for players and NPCs alike. That is what I don't like about this new rule regardless if it makes sense or not it is not easy to track.
Yes the shield arm, but that is what it was used heavily for by clerics and Warmages. As they could keep a weapon in hand and cast using the buckler hand in 3.5. I am not going to get into 'its common sense' as I have never cast a spell so can't back it up with real world argument.
What I do know is that expecting players to remember the loss of the buckler AC for one round when they cast is asking allot. Its also another situational modifier that must be tracked by the DM for players and NPCs alike. That is what I don't like about this new rule regardless if it makes sense or not it is not easy to track.
You can always just switch your weapon to your shield hand to cast...you won't be attacking with it so you'd still get the AC, and you can switch it back after casting anyway, so unless you're casting something for longer than your turn you're fine.
Everyone who posted anything about bucklers has been almost entirely wrong, and that's frankly amazing considering the existence of Wikipedia just next door.
Since nobody else bothered fact checking, I'll do this entirely from memory so I have the potential of being equally an ass. ;) The historical buckler was held in one hand; imagine a dinner plate mounted on brass knuckles. It was not strapped anywhere and while I suppose there are ways an archer could have used one, it wouldn't have done much.
Bucklers were part of a style which used a one-handed sword (or "swash" in certain vernacular); the off-hand (holding the buckle...r) was used to cover the sword hand, serving the purpose of a basket hilt without restricting grip position and also allowing the user to feint more effectively because his grip couldn't be seen. I don't recall any evidence that they were used prior to medieval Europe.
There is not and has never been any functional shield which simply straps to the forearm; it literally can't work without some perpendicular support (either a firmly gripped handle, or being mounted to plate armor) to prevent the whole thing from flipping around your arm and giving you nasty friction burns. The best you can do in that regard is reinforced bracers, and to maintain sanity in the face of game mechanics that's always how I picture a D&D "buckler."
Hmmm...whilst the description of a European buckler is gripped in one hand, the Zulu's adopted a better grip when fighting spear and sheild as found HERE. So it could be possible to use the buckler as an archer, etc.
There is more than one way to skin a cat.
Tejon you are very late to the party but I'll go ahead and inform you that we have been over the history of Bucklers through and through. We are aware of what actual historical Bucklers are, when they came into use, how they were used, and why they are called what they are called.
We are not talking about historical bucklers though. We are talking about D&D bucklers (which 'historically' speaking would be more on line with vambraces, or bazubands).
actually most people's reaction times are around 7/10 of a second...for something which is expected, .5 to acquire visually, .2 seconds to react physically.Hate to break it to you, but you're waaaayyyy off on the reaction times.
At least according to our friends at Wikipedia and backed up by some fairly formidable studies (linked from the same), the average simple reaction time (which includes both acquisition and response) is closer to 1/4 of a second (215 milliseconds) for visual cues.
I guess none of the studies involved referd to full-body evasion or eveb lifting a 4+ lbs steel or wood shield up and straight into the path of an onrushing missile you are only glimpsing at a a very narrow cross-section in the first place. Instead these guys pushed a button or trigger (for minimal physical delay and study precision)... which is far easier than moving your arm and attached protective device into place. Or jump/twist out of the way, with a lengthy implement in hand, wearing protective and weighty leather armor or better. yeah, even leather will slow you down - just try to run or do some exercises with a leather cuirass (or a thickish leather jacket ) on for some realistic impression.
And remember - that arrow is coming right at you (almost straight on usually, with people commonly aiming near the chest or head of a humanoid target, the ones likely to use a shield...). Now, feel free to look at an arrow from the front, with the shaft lined up behind the point and consider spotting it that way from 100'+ out within a narrow 6'x3' field around the archer.
In bad light.
....keeping an eye on the battlefield as well.
....and trying to shoot your own bow.
Even if you do, now try to catch it with the buckler, the size of a large pizza, strapped to your lower arm. nevermind that an arrow shot from a 50+ lbs pull bow will punch straight through an 1/2" wooden board into the arm it is strapped too. And medieval bows had a far heavier pull than just 50 lbs.
Oh, and strapping a buckler to your arm should... well.. really heavily interfere with the wristguard the archer wears to protect the wrist and inner arm, preventing the bowstring from snagging on it.
Historically people used shields to block the approximate path of an arrow, if aware of the archer's activity in the first place. And even then, because that was better than doing nothing, but not because it was a very valid and feasible option
Heroic fiction may consider things differently, but that is only.. fiction
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wrt: "offhand" here's how it works.
I'm left handed. My right hand is my offhand. I hold the bow with my right hand, and the string with the pulled arrow in my left hand.
I sight with my left eye.
With rifle, it's the same. I hold the grip with my right hand, trigger with my left hand, and aim with my left eye. I can shoot crosseye if I wish, without too much loss of accuracy. Don't know about crosseye with a bow; never tried it.
So, you hold the bow with your offhand, and pull the string with your primary hand. Right handers do the bow with their left hand, and pull the string with their right hand.
I guess none of the studies involved referd to full-body evasion or eveb lifting a 4+ lbs steel or wood shield up and straight into the path of an onrushing missile you are only glimpsing at a a very narrow cross-section in the first place. Instead these guys pushed a button or trigger (for minimal physical delay and study precision)... which is far easier than moving your arm and attached protective device into place. Or jump/twist out of the way, with a lengthy implement in hand, wearing protective and weighty leather armor or better. yeah, even leather will slow you down - just try to run or do some exercises with a leather cuirass (or a thickish leather jacket ) on for some realistic impression.
Oh I'm not arguing for or against either side in the whole buckler/archer thing, if it were up to me I'd just houserule bucklers into something more historically accurate and forget the whole mess. I was just annoyed with people making arguments based on random guesses at the average human reaction time, without any evidence to back up their argument either way.
Considering most people can throw a punch at around 15-20 miles an hour, averaging somewhere between 1/5th and 1/4th of a second in duration, and it's not at all unheard of for people to dodge a punch, I'd say it's not at all unreasonable to use the numbers from the reaction time studies (215 milliseconds or so) for basic, muscle memory level reactions like blocking an attack or moving out of it's way in combat.
Now, when it comes to the whole bracers and archers and do I keep the AC and all that whatnot, I'm not taking a position either way, I just wanted to contribute some verifiable facts to the discussion.
So, you hold the bow with your offhand, and pull the string with your primary hand. Right handers do the bow with their left hand, and pull the string with their right hand.
This is absolutely correct, I actually have and shoot a bow in the medieval style. The bow is held in you off-hand and you pull back the bowstring with your main hand. In general it is much easier to hold the bow than it is to pull back the string.
As for the buckler with the bow, I don't think it would really interfere that horribly with using the bow in general. That is why it doesn't give a penalty to fire the bow with a buckler equipped. Someone else mentioned it interfering with the wrist guard, which I would just have to say is silly. Granted, I actually don't use a wrist guard, I've never really needed it. The worst injury caused by the bowstring that I have seen was actually from that wrist-guard. A friend of mine managed to catch his arm higher up than the guard and it pinched him between the string and the guard...
In any case, the way the combat system is designed it is supposed to be everyone acting simultaneously. People don't patiently wait for the other people to act for six seconds, it would just be far too complicated to try to simulate the actions happening at the same time. That would explain why using the bow would eliminate the shield bonus. While firing you have your shield arm outstretched holding the bow and not able to maneuver it at all.
This pretty much follows the reading of the rules for the buckler, no penalty for using a bow with a shield (this refers to the otherwise present -1 for using a weapon in that hand). Using a weapon in that hand (no matter what weapon) removes the shield bonus. Even if you want to claim that one of the hands is just holding a string or an arrow, as we said above, that would actually be your primary hand, not the one with the buckler.
Oh I'm not arguing for or against either side in the whole buckler/archer thing, if it were up to me I'd just houserule bucklers into something more historically accurate and forget the whole mess. I was just annoyed with people making arguments based on random guesses at the average human reaction time, without any evidence to back up their argument either way.
Considering most people can throw a punch at around 15-20 miles an hour, averaging somewhere between 1/5th and 1/4th of a second in duration, and it's not at all unheard of for people to dodge a punch, I'd say it's not at all unreasonable to use the numbers from the reaction time studies (215 milliseconds or so) for basic, muscle memory level reactions like blocking an attack or moving out of it's way in combat.
Now, when it comes to the whole bracers and archers and do I keep the AC and all that whatnot, I'm not taking a position either way, I just wanted to contribute some verifiable facts to the discussion.
As for the punches, one does not actually dodge on the cue of the punch being thrown, but reacting to the shift in position and stance, reading that and the movement preceding the actual forward extension of the arm, or the swing. That is, at least from my experience, with strike-based martial arts. And I wouldn't disagree with extensive training with regard to close-combat actually helping to avoid blows through swift counter-moves. Hence the Dodge feat.
But an arrow, viewed from the front or an oblique(?) angle is very hard to spot ( speaking from my own archery experiences - if the arrow has not struck the target at an angle or having been skewed through the inertia after impact, thereby pointing more or less sideways, it is very hard to spot from any distance.
And that is a stationary object to spot, with brightly coloured vanes to make it more visible.
I sincerely doubt that anyone (bar the ninja from "Mythbusters", and I have no idea about the flightspeed of the arrows used there) to interpose a shield effectively if one doesn't actually spot the archer releasing the shaft and follow its course with maximum concentration.
Guess that leaves little time or attention to fight anything else. Full defense , anyone ?
And your attempt at getting the debate down to facts is appreciated, at least by me^^
And your attempt at getting the debate down to facts is appreciated, at least by me^^
Heh, thanks. I could point out some other examples of reflexes being similarly quick, even when uncued; Catching a falling cup, dodging oncoming traffic, etc., but when did the topic change to blocking an arrow with a buckler anyways, I thought the topic was supposed to be firing an arrow while wearing a buckler.
(Oh, and I know it's a complete digression, but most of the time in a medieval warfare situation, you would not have been blocking/dodging arrows fired from close range and directly at you with no arc, most arrows would have been fired en masse from much longer ranges, and would have arced prior to impact, making them far more visible, and far more instinctively predictable. People are very, very good at guessing the path objects will follow in a parabolic arc.
Crossbows on the other hand were fired at close range, and had sufficient power to hit their targets with next to no arc and much less time to react, part of the reason they were so deadly in real life.)
As for the buckler with the bow, I don't think it would really interfere that horribly with using the bow in general. That is why it doesn't give a penalty to fire the bow with a buckler equipped. Someone else mentioned it interfering with the wrist guard, which I would just have to say is silly. Granted, I actually don't use a wrist guard, I've never really needed it. The worst injury caused by the bowstring that I have seen was actually from that wrist-guard. A friend of mine managed to catch his arm higher up than the guard and it pinched him between the string and the guard...
speaking for myself, I frequently have bruises after archery sessions, even though I wear a wristguard, cause even a single snap over the course of a 120+ releases(about the numbers in a regular training bout) will be something you feel for days after. The same goes for the scratches from the vanes/fletching which, though less painful are more frequent.
And although I do my archery in short sleeves, long sleeves pretty common on medieval clothing would be possible, since the secondary purpose of the wristguard-bracers was/is to prevent the string from snagging on the sleeve.My club also has a formidable collection of instructional photographies of the effect of snagging your bowstring on your wristwatch or bracelet - some people are just plain.... careless, I guess - which range from some pretty nasty bruises up to broken wrists.
I wouldn't care to wrap a leatherstrap, probably strong and perhaps with a clasp over that - open invitation for the string to snag. And angling my elbow would both drastically increase the strain on my arm and decrease the pull-distance of the bow, lowering range and velocity.
As for the rules... you need both hands to fire a bow, any type of it, even if you can hold it with one hand. Ergo ----> no physical shield should be able to be usefully deployed at the same time.
And your attempt at getting the debate down to facts is appreciated, at least by me^^Heh, thanks. I could point out some other examples of reflexes being similarly quick, even when uncued; Catching a falling cup, dodging oncoming traffic, etc., but when did the topic change to blocking an arrow with a buckler anyways, I thought the topic was supposed to be firing an arrow while wearing a buckler.
The "blocking" aspect came into the second someone stated that it may not only be worn at the same time (doubtful to my mind), but also gainfully employed ! Never even considering to swing it about with 4+' of bowstaff firmly clutched in that arm's hand against a foe's melee swing or stab^^
As for "direct" fire with a bow - happened a lot, though not in the larger, well-depicted battles, where long-range ballistic fire proved so exceedingly decisive from the 13th century forward.
But far less so for the horse-archers of, say the mongolian steppes, the srazens or the skirmishes for the roman and greek armies, who fought so much more on the scales used in the battles of Pathfinder (and other heroic RPGs) which happen at ranges of under 200'.... the flightpath of an arrow from a non-amateur bow there is just barely ballistic to the naked eye, much like a crossbow's bolt....
...stuff, see above...
Fair enough.
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You can always just switch your weapon to your shield hand to cast...you won't be attacking with it so you'd still get the AC, and you can switch it back after casting anyway, so unless you're casting something for longer than your turn you're fine.
For the most part its true except its a move-action* to move the weapon to the other hand and then a standard to cast. So you can't move it back until next round. Which why you can do it is another area of specific circumstance penalties to take into account as if you take an AoO its at -1 to hit and then you still lose the buckler AC for the rest of the round. Not including have to use two move actions to accomplish this. Just seems like allot of special rules to fix a something that I never saw as being a problem.
If next someone says make it a free-action to switch hands on a weapon as that fixes the buckler casting problem why even have a rule about casting and a buckler then? Would it not be easier to make the buckler work as it did in 3.5 and it solves compatibility issues with 3.5 feats at the same time.
*And my source for being a Move-Action is the WotC FAQ that uses an example of a cleric and a light shield on page 11.
If next someone says make it a free-action to switch hands on a weapon as that fixes the buckler casting problem why even have a rule about casting and a buckler then? Would it not be easier to make the buckler work as it did in 3.5 and it solves compatibility issues with 3.5 feats at the same time.
I would instead say make it a free-action (or maybe a swift action) to shift a weapon to your other hand purely because it's common sense, and fixing the buckler casting problem is purely a beneficial side-effect of that.
My club also has a formidable collection of instructional photographies of the effect of snagging your bowstring on your wristwatch or bracelet - some people are just plain.... careless, I guess - which range from some pretty nasty bruises up to broken wrists.
Oh, it gets worse. The wife of a friend is a master archer in the Japanese style. She was instructing in San Francisco and was used to cautioning women to wear protective bras. She was not expecting to have to caution male students to remove body jewelry.
She now does so, after a rather graphic and painful incident with a bowstring and a nipple ring.
Buckler AC is retained while using a bow.
Uhm, not to be an ***, but, some documentation to back your statement up would help. Unless it's just your opinion?