
glenstryder |
I have not found a post that directly talks about the whole druid design.
My current opinion is that there is a flaw in the design that makes a druid really STR dependant, a lot more than the cleric.
I am not saying at all that the druid is not a powerfull class. I think it is a very nice class. I just want to point out that without strength, the possibility of a druid are a lot reduced.
Basically a druid has 3 main abilities:
1) Spells
2) Companion
3) wildshape
1) Druid spells are mainly divided into 3 parts
1-a) Summon, the worst summoner in the game
1-b) Buff spells: best animal buffer
1-c) Attack spells
The druid has a good attack spell, flame strike (I won't talk about call lightning, I have never understood the design idea behind call llighting... 3d6 damage on a single target with no level advancement is just lame...). However the druid does not have a lot of spells. So basically, the druid won't cast this one that much. Plus it lacks a bit of diversity in attack spells
The summon is very good, but it's frustrating that now the druid has the worst summon spells. But ok I can live with that because of wild shape (see point 3)
Out of that, there are some "effect" spells, communicate with plants, with animals, travelling, and so on. But nothing really shiny at medium high level.
2) Companion
The companion is a good add to the druid. It can deals decent damage , but, if we take the standard wolf companion, it does not deal a huge amount of damage. It's nice, but it's not shiny neither.
The companion can also have nice abilities (fly, stealth, to spy etc...).
These are good but not that mutch in combat.
Ok you can take a tiger... which is awasome ^^ But let's consider that you take a basic wolf.
Maybe the design idea here is to let the low str druid takes the tiger ^^
3) wildshape
Any animal wildshape spell gives a +1 attack bonus (basically +6str for huge transformation is +1 attack bonus only).
So if we take a druid with 10 str, that means a attack bonus of 8 at level 10...
This is very crappy. Very very crappy. It will deal ok damage because of str boost, but will miss a lot... Ok it can be buffed and so on, but it won't be extraordinary.
If we shift into small or tiny creatures, with weapon finess, we can have a nice attack bonus, but the damage will be really crappy.
The main difference here with the cleric is that the cleric has direct bonus on attacks and damages. The size is not modified hence no malus to attack! That means a level 10 cleric with the same str will have attack bonus of 10 with one spell.
Ok so a druid with low str cannot really fight. No issue I can use special abilities of shapes. Vortex of the air elemental for instance...ah...it is str based...hmm
Well, a druid can use wildshape to shift into a air elemental and fly and cast spells from the air...But the spell list is not that fun (compared with cleric and wizards. I don't ask for the wizard list hey, just more fun spells or varied effects)
Ok that's nice, but it's frustrating to be able to shift into that many creatures and only...fly...that's all...(ok immunities, etc...that's powerfull but it's not ...fun to just be immunized and do nothing really shiny).
A druid with decent STR (14 at last) will be a good shapeshifter and will be able to have fun, but I think that without a good str, the druid looses a third of its capacities and the class just becomes less appealing.
In fact, I would like some shapeshifting abilities that would be nice for a low str druid (don't talk about fly or etc...).
Sorry for my english, I m not a native speaker at all ;)
Thanks.

-Archangel- |

Also, I do not see a problem being Str dependant with a melee character.
If you wanted a class that only needs one stat to play, go play wizards.
And since equipment although it melds into your new form still continues to work things are pretty sweet. Start with 14 Str, get +6 bracers, +4 tome and +8 from wild shape. That is 32 str at really high levels.
That is NOT weak. That is similar to what the fighter will have at that level. And you get to cast offensive, defensive or healing spells while in that combat form. Your companion gives you flank or can even trip or grapple your foes.

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The druid has a good attack spell, flame strike (I won't talk about call lightning, I have never understood the design idea behind call llighting... 3d6 damage on a single target with no level advancement is just lame...). However the druid does not have a lot of spells. So basically, the druid won't cast this one that much. Plus it lacks a bit of diversity in attack spells
I'm not sure where this statement comes from since Call Lightning DOES scale with level via duration (though not manifested as direct damage) and can be a versatile attack spell. With a 1 minute/level duration (long enough to cast well before the start of a fight), Call Lightning provides the druid a back-up attack with without resorting to using sling stones or using up other spells he/she may not want to waste. Heck, at mid-levels watching a druid roll over people with his flaming sphere and chain lightning combo every round is pretty darned sufficient. It may lose its luster at much higher levels, but we're talking a 3rd level spell here (with an upgrade to Call Lightning Storm at 5) that you can combine with Djini summons and control weather to boost its damage nicely. In a direct comparison to Fireball (which deals only a max of 10d6 points of damage) Call Lightning does upwards of 30d6 (up to 10 strokes for 3d6 each), it's just a little more spread out than instant. A disadvantage? In a lot of cases absolutely, but if I can call for even four consecutive calls I've beaten the fireball damage. Even then you can't just think of it as a blast-away kind of spell, it's just a solid ranged attack replacement and I'll take 3d6 over 1d4 + 3 any day of the week.
I'm also going to agree with the other poster and say your analysis of Summon Animal is off for the same exact reasons he noted.
I think a lot of what you're complaining about is based on the concept and theories behind what you'd be using, not their actual use. I've never seen Druids as fighter types, or healers, or wizards, but I have seen them as a bit of all three. They'll never be quite as strong as a fighter, but they can provide backup in a pinch. They'll never put out the healing like a cleric, but they can heal when needed. Finally they'll never lay down the mass damage of a sorcerer or wizard, but they can have a nuke-orientation pretty easily. All in all though, I'm not sure they're nearly as weak as you seem to think.

glenstryder |
Also, I do not see a problem being Str dependant with a melee character.
If you wanted a class that only needs one stat to play, go play wizards.
And since equipment although it melds into your new form still continues to work things are pretty sweet. Start with 14 Str, get +6 bracers, +4 tome and +8 from wild shape. That is 32 str at really high levels.
That is NOT weak. That is similar to what the fighter will have at that level. And you get to cast offensive, defensive or healing spells while in that combat form. Your companion gives you flank or can even trip or grapple your foes.
14 str is a very good start with 15 point buy, and I am not talking about High level plays with a lot of magic items, but medium play (level 12 for instance). Low str druid for me is 8 str.
Summon monster is now better than summon nature ally in most cases ( big change from 3.5). For instance summon monster 6 summons dire tiger celestial. Summon nature ally summons dire tiger ... Ok they are some differences but not that much.
But that's not my point. My point is that when you have a low str, wildshape is not very usefull that's all. I find that's a pitty.
I am not saying druid is not good. I repeat I find it's a very powerfull class with a lot of options IF you have a decent str (14 for instance)

Majuba |

Addressing the wildshape attack bonus.
In brief, you're right, the druid attack bonus doesn't go up as much as others because of size penalty. But Damage goes up far faster because of size change.
To use your example, a cleric with divine favor will have +10 to hit (BAB + spell), and do 1d8+3. A druid as a huge creature will have +8 to hit (BAB + shape - size) but deal 2d8+4 damage. Two to-hit for an average of 5.5 damage.
There are several other things you can do to increase to hit, but having a 14 str is hardly a penalty (14 str/dex/con/wis would be a fine point-buy build for instance) if you're going to be a strong combat druid.

Lael Treventhius |

I'm playing a monk 1 / druid 12 (with DM's blessing) and spends all his time in earth elemental form, and I'm certaintly not feeling left behind playing him.
Because of the monk level I have the highest AC of the group because my wisdom is getting added to me AC and probably the highest CMD as well I susepect. I have the highest HP's in the group when going into large or huge elemental form. And is immune to crits, sneak attacks and poisen i.e rogues
Damange wise, I'll never keep up with the fighters or melee specialists, because they are hitting more often yes, but at the moment we seem to be running into things that have DR slashing, so being the only blunt weapon around I'm doing the most damage. But I always have 2 greater magic fangs spells going (one for natural weapons and one for slam) so thats +3. Improved Natural attack means I do more damage with the slam, and if I can't hit with the second attack I switch to flurry without any penalty because of the changes to monk, which means basically more damage as I'm liking to hit more. And then I always have the option to summon up some earth elementals and increase my overal damage as well.
But yes, it does require you having more than one better then average stat unlike before, but you had to be like that if you were playing a monk. So if your not going to be a combat druid, still to spell casting and summoning elementals.