I don't see why the King dieing makes a difference in the PCs caring for the city. You want the PCs to adventure in the city so they to know Korvosa. That's exactly what the first three adventures do.
Opinions? Yeah, the adventure is fine as is.
If youre running the adventure and you need to make those changes then just make them for your group. Just make sure that somehow the major plot points are still in place some how so that your PC's can move on.
But COTCT is fine as it is. If you need the characters (players) to be vested in the city start them
of in a prequel adventure(s) or solo adventures to show them how and why they have beef with Gaedren Lamm. That way you can retain the essential structure of the 1st adventure but now the PC's have a "real" reason to get involved.
For my money COTCT is probably one of THE best of the AP's thus far and needs no major changes as is (except to customize things for one's group).
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I love the Curse of the Crimson Throne AP, it's my favorite one so far. But I agree with the OP. I think it would be great to have at least a few games for the players to get to know the "normal" Korvosa at the start of the campaign before all hell breaks loose. It would make the "abnormal" events of the rest of the campaign seem much more drastic in comparison!
I totally agree that running a small adventure as a prequel to the first part of the AP would help create this atmosphere.
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For my money COTCT is probably one of THE best of the AP's thus far and needs no major changes as is (except to customize things for one's group).
Agreed, I haven't played any of the Pathfinder APs but I've read them all. CotCT is my favorite to date. ...interestingly if look at each adventure individually I almost always like the second in each path best.
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I love the Curse of the Crimson Throne AP, it's my favorite one so far. But I agree with the OP. I think it would be great to have at least a few games for the players to get to know the "normal" Korvosa at the start of the campaign before all hell breaks loose. It would make the "abnormal" events of the rest of the campaign seem much more drastic in comparison!
I totally agree that running a small adventure as a prequel to the first part of the AP would help create this atmosphere.
I thought the point was that Korvosa wasn't supposed to have a "normal" atmosphere.
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I quite liked Crimson Throne. I did start running it with a group but unfortunately I moved away so only got about 1/2 way through Seven Days.
Korvosa is a great setting, overall plot is enticing. That said if I was to run it again I would concur with the OP, a prelude adventure would be helpful preferably one involving Gaedren Lamm, as I found that he was too quickly dispatched.
Otherwise EoA, and Seven Days are quite solid. The problems for me started with Escape from Korvosa:
So the whole Escape from NY vibe was great and I was quite keen on the rakshasa family (can't remember name) but wasn't too struck with the dungeon crawl under their manor and also felt that the rakshasa were squandered as they have little effect on the campaign aside from holding the seneschal prisoner. If I had ran it further I'm pretty certain I would've tried to keep the family in play through to the end (after disposing of the Queen, if they were still surviving they would certainly make a play for the throne).
That said it is an AP, they provide the base, the DM and players can jazz off it from there. I was pretty certain I had thought of making other changes to History of Ashes and Crown of Fangs but its been awhile. Scarwall was another very solid adventure and might've been my favourite of the AP if I had had the chance to run it.
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I thought the point was that Korvosa wasn't supposed to have a "normal" atmosphere.
I agree that the things you list make Korvosa different than other cities (in a very cool way). That's what makes this city so interesting to discover, and to live in through our characters in this AP. But as written, the player characters don't get to enjoy this stuff before "all hell breaks lose".
I didn't mean to say that Korvosa was a normal city. I meant, it would be nice for the players to get to discover what Korvosa was like when things were normal there by Korvosan standards... Before everything changes drastically.
It would put some perspective between what is exciting in the city for us as players, who discover this city for the first time, and what is exciting about the dreadful events that happen during the campaign, which should arouse the outrage and anger of our characters, who are seeing their beloved city go through such hardships.
Does it make more sense now?
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Korvosa doesnt have to be normal. But a bit of adventuring before everything goes to hell might make players actually care somewhat when things do go to hell.
I'm not disagreeing with your assertion. It is typically a good idea for the players to have some idea of the campaign that they are going into. Its hard to play in a game where the GM hasn't set up the appropriate links, thus suspending the immersion factor that their players want.
While that isn't the business of the adventure path, it never hurts to have something. Good backstories for characters are often the best way to do this. Talk between the GM and players is essential before the campaign even begins because their characters will know somethings and have certain assumptions about how the game world works. Even a well meaning prequel or start up adventure won't address this issue the same way some direct talk will.
So, while i'm not disagreeing with you, I just don't think that "normal" is an appropriate description for the city. Hence Korvosa does need a little more exposition, but I wonder just how effective a pre-adventure really would be considering all the things that need to be explained.
Korvosa doesnt have to be normal. But a bit of adventuring before everything goes to hell might make players actually care somewhat when things do go to hell.
Surely that's a GM issue, not a publisher issue. They gave us Korvosa as a source book with lots of ideas on what to do. When my players were getting ready to play and deciding on character concepts and such it became clear that they'd enjoy gaming for a while before the king died, so I just ran a few sessions like that before setting them against Lamm. This was easy because of all the support material Paizo provided (plus the advice of the amazing people on this very board).
I think that a GM needs to figure out how to make this stuff the most fun for his/her players. Since it's different for everyone Paizo can't really script it too much, but I think that they did a fine job in this case.
Note that I'm agreeing with your basic point. :) It is more fun to adventure a bit first before starting the AP!
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To me it is a Publisher issue to a degree. Sure as a DM you can throw some adventures in to create background, but you are limited. Too much and players may acquire wealth or levels that make the first module a cakewalk or force the DM to modify parts. Thats why it should be built into the path.
This is why I recommend a good backstory for your character instead. You don't have to worry about accidentally gaining too much xp or treasure before the main part of the campaign starts, plus the player gets all the information necessary for his character to participate in that adventure.
The AP isn't in charge of character backstories, unless you are playing with the pregenerated characters in the back of the AP. Once you have an idea of what you'd like to do with your character the GM should be willing to give you some exposition materials in order for your character to have a reason to care about Korvosa.
Or are you saying that you want the players to care about Korvosa? That is an entirely different matter, a meta game issue that the AP will not be able to cover because it doesn't control people.
To me it is a Publisher issue to a degree. Sure as a DM you can throw some adventures in to create background, but you are limited. Too much and players may acquire wealth or levels that make the first module a cakewalk or force the DM to modify parts. Thats why it should be built into the path.
Sorry to disagree. The entire point of the start is to get the PCs emerged into the ongoing events first thing. The adventure does this admirably, especially since it does NOT assume the players to be some goody-two-shoes working for the guard, "railroading" them into a specific role. Being given "the mission" by the "the man" etc etc.
Something I remember you complaining about in another thread on this forum- . Loudly too....If the player characters want/need some glimpse of Korvosa's normal life, they can easily have that either in between the short adventures of the first chapter five episodes (Fish-factory, slaughterhouse, casino, rooftop-chase and burial mount ) if I count correctly, and none of these require to be played back-to-back. Or even be played in that order (although common sense dictates that "casino" should not happen before "slaughterhouse").
My players actually did a lot of side-treks between these sub-chapters, linking up with their relatives and contacts, taking care of Lamm's orphan, checking on their burned down housing, making friends with NPCs encountered, even doing some minor crime-fighting on the side. It is possible - simply because there is no fixed timeline for events to occur... sometimes Korvosa is in upheaval for weeks, someplace else everything is over after two nights.
Friend of mine shoe-horned in an entire coronation ceremony involving his players so they could meet some nobility and get impressions on some of the major players - I don't think that netted them masses of XP but lot's of fun. My players' groupon the other hand would have stood out like sore thumbs, leading to a less enjoyable session
His guys busted a smuggling ring in the harbour and found some odd clues about stuff brought to Korvosa (to be late found in the hospital).. his own invention ( I think he skipped "casino" though, which he hated). Mine planned and almost executed a heist on the "Floating Eels". Now two groups play alike, want the same thing and will make the same "logical" choices !
And since every GMs Korvosa is bound to be different in feel, grittiness and athmosphere, this is a good thing ! I could point you at some players how would never want to stick around in a town for the first few levels - keeping them there unless the real big events were happening right there, now that would be railroading and stiffling. This way, the major events - the death of the king and the new era dawning with the princess taking the throne - are there as a background from the beginning.
And before that canvas, Korvosa unfolds in individual glory...
Minor bonus from a GM's perspective - players who have memorized the Guide to Korvosa in preparation should be in for some rude surprises, since all of that information quickly becomes.... dated ?
I also find it... interesting.. that while you argued for the players' Right to leave town and have some adventure outside to upgrade before facing the AP's challenges, you here defend the other side of the coin, saying that characters with too many resources are bad for the Ap and make it too easy ?
Now, what should it be, because it can't be both, right ?
Besides and in all honesty - when you go and complain about the qualities of an adventure path, the worst possible foundation for that would be to argue from the PoV of a player still participating (who naturally shouldn't have read the AP in the first place), not a GM who sees the actual machinery and plotting of the AP. Plus, as far as I remember, your GM seemed to be less than... adaptive, judging from your complaints in the previous thread. So you argue from a limited perspective, and what you actually know about the AP is filtered by another person, who won't tell you all of the choices possible, even should he be aware of them.
Basically, a position one shouldn't be arguing from too loudly. YMMV
I think Edge of Anarchy *is* the introductory part. I toned down the background rioting and general unrest quite a lot (which doesn't affect the adventures, just the background fluff) because it all seemed disproportional. If you do that, the meat of the adventure gives a little tour of the different parts of the city, working for the good guys and introducing some major characters (like Kroft and Orisini). Besides the five major sub-adventures given there are also a few minor encounters that can be expanded and, as others have said, if you have Guide to Korvosa and/or various city-based adventures from Dungeon or elsewhere you can easily pad things out.
I agree that it might be good to keep Eodred alive for a little longer, perhaps he dies midway through Edge of Anarchy*, but I don't think it's a major flaw.
That would work easily enough. The Old Fishery is self-contained and tied up with the character's backgrounds. They could still end up with the Queen's brooch - the King is so ill, she's acting as Regent and she can still send them to Kroft. Verik and Co. don't need the background of riots to desert and open ATWM, they can have done that at any time. If Eodred dies after that segment, you could even change the hook for Eel's End - Devargo claims to know the identity of the assassin, for example, or he is a suspect.
After that, business as usual for the AP.
This is a bit tricky an issue. Essentially they have done that before, see particularly Age of Worms, where things start out with the PCs not really on the main quest initially. The problem is that this kind of fogs out the main story line for the players who are not privy to the fact that these initial adventures don't have much to do with the actual plot line.
Its already pretty tough for players to get a feel for the story without having that story not really start up until later on. Essentially the 'jump right in' aspect of the current batch of APs is in response to people complaining on the message boards that they didn't like the slow starts that we saw in some of the previous APs. Part of the problem is you end up with the players believing that all the initial stuff was relevant and then the players start to jump to faulty conclusions.
In some ways this is even more important with a city adventure as there are already so many other distractions around so its important that the main plot line is emphasized again and again or ones players are going to lose the message.
Its also a little tougher to start earlier as it does tend to shoehorn what the players are. Currently the way things stand the link between the players initially is that they are residents of Korvosa. In some sense they can be any kinds of residents and they are drawn into the adventure because of the crisis that Korvosa is undergoing. If we deal with Korvosa earlier then we need to design some kind of a plot line that defines the players as they will need to go on these earlier missions.
Now there is nothing inherently wrong with defining things more clearly and it is the usual starting point for an AP, Legacy of Fire starts the players off as caravan guards for example, but it is a nice feature of the Curse of the Crimson Throne AP that the early plot, being a city in crisis, works so nicely for any kind of PCs with any kind of background.
In any case, the bottom line is that the most of the more recent APs tend to get into the main story quickly mainly because people were complaining that the slow starts didn't work well.
Interesting. I can see your point that the paranoid will of course think everything is related. Its the downside to television and movies where everything is of course is related.
I am probably not the best person to argue against that though. My preferred style is gothic horror and evil society. In games like that everything really is part of a big dark plot to take your soul and the universe.
As for the slow start. I guess I can understand that if the players are anxious for the world shaking events but small "get to know the place" adventures can be just as fun if designed so as to not feel like filler. I guess its a pretty hard line to walk.
Its not really an issue of being paranoid. Its essentially a combination of human nature and the static between what the DM knows and what the players know.
Its human nature to draw links between events and form conclusions based on that. We are puzzle solving machines and we'll solve the puzzle even if there is not actually a puzzle to solve. Essentially players can easily pick up on almost anything taking place in early modules and build that up into something that is not even there. This is made mroe extreme in an RPG because there is a certain amount of static between what the DM knows and what gets passed on to the players. I'm not just talking about secret stuff - if the DM tells the players an important clue but the two guys that actually pay attention to the DMs yapping are distracted then that information never really got passed on. The DM might think that the info got to the players but it did not. This can mean that when yet another new clue shows up the players decide that it actually connects with something unrelated that took place earlier.
Keeping players up to date on the relevant information in an RPG is actually pretty difficult. Hence the dramatic drop off in things like red herrings in modern adventures.
Thinking about this some more I think Edge of Anarchy is actually a pretty good way of getting the players come to care about the city.
If you think about it an AP has to focus on action sequences. If the initial adventures are about the players leaving the city to clear out marauding kobolds or what not they don't really care about the city - its just the nameless place where they go to buy equipment out of the players handbook.
This means that an adventure must focuses the players on the city folk themselves. That requires adventure worthy action sequences involving the city folk in some manner. To make it adventure worthy the city folk have to be part of the early scenes and that means they need to be in trouble. Edge of Anarchy does this by putting the city into crisis and thus creates many adventure worthy encounters with the people of the city from the get go.
Sure this means getting lots of little fed ex quests from various people in the city but in the end that has the most opportunity to develop some kind of a relationships between the players and the ith the city folk handing out the fed ex quests. It might not work at any given table but it has the best shot of doing so.
Adding my two copper, I like the AP as it has been written. Working the characters into the city and the AP was my responsibility as GM, by giving my players the information about the city that they needed to create their background and friends and family. It was also their responsibility to give me that information.
The players have access to the Player's Guide, and I purchased the Chronicle about Korvosa to give more information. I read everything in the first two books to glean every bit of info to hand out to my players.
Creating a tie to the city (or whatever location) is something that is not appropriate for the writer's of the AP to have happen. It was stated that the players should be Natives of the city and all should have a reason to hate Gaedren Lamm. If that information is laid out, and the players and GM works together, you will have all the reasons you need so when things begin, you jump into the adventure with both feet running.
If more is wanted, that is up to any given playing group, not the authors of the AP. They are writing the adventure, the stuff that takes you from first to wherever you end. Anything prior is up to the group to supply. If the GM wants more, adapt, add, adlib. If the players want more, talk to the GM ... don't expect every module or AP to be tailor-made to your specific group. That's the GMs job.
I've been running CoCT, heavily massaged to fit into a homebrew setting (e.g. Shoanti are a nation of civilized hobgoblins based vaguely off of the Aztecs), for a couple months now. We've just now managed to start HoA, since I threw Clash of the Kingslayers in to placate a player with a dwarven PC who was feeling a little left out.
The first three APs have a breakneck pace that was hard to slow down. There's always some horribly occurrence pressing on the PCs to move faster, whether its riots, a city in flames, or a plague ripping through the populace. With most of the situations, slowing things down meant that lots and lots of people lost their lives, which didn't sit well with my group of heroic PCs. And, since in many cases, one situation was a reaction to an earlier situation, letting too much time pass between them weakened the tie (i.e. Old Korvosa can't be quarantined months after assassination attempt)
I managed to slow things down a tad by making the Hellknights an even more oppressive force in the city, instituting a city-wide curfew, and running most of the first three adventures in a paranoid, silent city of mostly deserted streets and occasional Hellknight patrols (my players are terrified of Hellknights. The PC's are 13th level now and still give any Hellknights they see a wide berth).
Some downtime between each of the first three adventures would have been nice to give the PCs time to establish themselves (in a way that first level PCs find it hard to do), open businesses, get married, etc...
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Some downtime between each of the first three adventures would have been nice to give the PCs time to establish themselves (in a way that first level PCs find it hard to do), open businesses, get married, etc...
EoA really has a tenative schedule that doesn't have to come at you all at once. In fact, I've tried stretching out the events so far to great success. One of my players is trying to train to be a Hellknight, another has taken up the cause of helping the poor of the Shingles as a member of the faith of Desna, and another has been working with the church of Pharasma to transport his dead wife's remains to a proper burial in the city. I even dipped into someone elses idea (I think it was Mikaze, if I'm wrong somebody correct me), and now the party bard is a part of the local opera scene. None of this would've worked had there not been some down time, which the schedule allows for by not giving an exacting timeline.
Really, the only problem that will arise at lower levels toward doing any extra-campaign work is funding. Still cannot give them too much gold, after all.
It also wouldn't have worked had they not had backstories for their characters when the game started. The Player's Guide to CotCT was great for that, giving a framework from which to build the characters pasts and why they each have something to do with Korvosa.
The major change needed is to eliminate Skeletons of Scarwall, have the
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I don't agree, I think that Scarwall is excellent and fits in well. You are traveling to the place where the great evil began way back in the day and are going to get the key to it's downfall from then to bring it back and use it for that same purpose once more. It ties the history of the story to the present.
I do agree, however, that the adventure is an excellent adventure that could stand on it's own. But I love it's place in the AP also.
Guys keep the spoilers down as there is a player reading this thread.
I thought the point was that Korvosa wasn't supposed to have a "normal" atmosphere.I agree that the things you list make Korvosa different than other cities (in a very cool way). That's what makes this city so interesting to discover, and to live in through our characters in this AP. But as written, the player characters don't get to enjoy this stuff before "all hell breaks lose".
I didn't mean to say that Korvosa was a normal city. I meant, it would be nice for the players to get to discover what Korvosa was like when things were normal there by Korvosan standards... Before everything changes drastically.
It would put some perspective between what is exciting in the city for us as players, who discover this city for the first time, and what is exciting about the dreadful events that happen during the campaign, which should arouse the outrage and anger of our characters, who are seeing their beloved city go through such hardships.
Does it make more sense now?
I agree. Due to the riots, players are pretty much prevented from interacting with many of the interesting shops, the Academe, et cetera. I also wish there had been about one scenario worth of city-wandering first - could cut down on the desert wandering later to compensate.
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I agree. Due to the riots, players are pretty much prevented from interacting with many of the interesting shops, the Academe, et cetera. I also wish there had been about one scenario worth of city-wandering first - could cut down on the desert wandering later to compensate.I thought the point was that Korvosa wasn't supposed to have a "normal" atmosphere.I agree that the things you list make Korvosa different than other cities (in a very cool way). That's what makes this city so interesting to discover, and to live in through our characters in this AP. But as written, the player characters don't get to enjoy this stuff before "all hell breaks lose".
I didn't mean to say that Korvosa was a normal city. I meant, it would be nice for the players to get to discover what Korvosa was like when things were normal there by Korvosan standards... Before everything changes drastically.
It would put some perspective between what is exciting in the city for us as players, who discover this city for the first time, and what is exciting about the dreadful events that happen during the campaign, which should arouse the outrage and anger of our characters, who are seeing their beloved city go through such hardships.
Does it make more sense now?
Only if you let the riots completely fill the streets. It seems that there are many areas of the city that are unaffected by rioting to the extent that would make the players unable to shop or even sell their gains.
Plus, it does give the PCs a chance to actually join the riots...
I agree. Due to the riots, players are pretty much prevented from interacting with many of the interesting shops, the Academe, et cetera. I also wish there had been about one scenario worth of city-wandering first - could cut down on the desert wandering later to compensate........
Does it make more sense now?
The riots don't really prevent anyone in the southern half of town or on the East Shore from interacting... much. Especially after the riots die down for good in the final sequences of Chapter #1
Besides the timetable of the plot being really wide open for the GM to fiddle around with, and there being plenty of opportunity between chapter #1 and the proceedings of chapter #2 ("Seven Days") even without intervening GM fiat.
Throughout chapter #2 there might be some... impromptu closures, environmental circumstances and all. Then there is another large gap possible between chapter #2 and #3, although that one might depend upon the players' resolution for the finale of "Seven Days"
I tend to agree that "Skeletons of Scarwall", while pretty nice and with some nifty and horrific ideas throughout, feels odd as the one "huge dungeon crawl" in the entirity of the rather open, short episodes AP. Let's be honest - most groups who enjoyed the open structure before that installment will not like it. And the "bash the door and tactical gamer" side of fandom will in all likelihood hate the other five chapters of the path.
But apparently we owe at least one "megadungeon" in each AP to the crowds of "crawling" fans.
I very much consider cutting it out, given that my group will probably feel bored out of their minds by the throwbacks to early eighties "huge and nasty place" design. They hated Runelords #4 and #5 for the same reasons - too "crawly, too little roleplay". So I doubt they will like sifting through the halls and chambers of Scarwall for several sessions. YMMV
Working the characters into the city and the AP was my responsibility as GM, by giving my players the information about the city that they needed to create their background and friends and family. It was also their responsibility to give me that information...<snip>...If more is wanted, that is up to any given playing group, not the authors of the AP. They are writing the adventure, the stuff that takes you from first to wherever you end. Anything prior is up to the group to supply. If the GM wants more, adapt, add, adlib. If the players want more, talk to the GM ... don't expect every module or AP to be tailor-made to your specific group. That's the GMs job.
I think that pretty well sums it up, GG.
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I am playing in 2 groups doing this AP, the 1st group has just finished Chapter 4, no I did not read the spoiler. The ONLY disappointment I've had so far is the beginning of Chapter 3 and then again with the beginning of Chapter 4. I really don't care for what I will call "MMO Questing", this being quests that blatantly make you GO HERE, GO THERE, GO HERE, GO THERE about a dozen times. I'm pretty sure our party(group #1) was partly to blame for this in Chapter 3, but in Chapter 4 the whole story is given to you IN THIS FORMAT from the start. I suppose you could argue that is what D&D is, but IMO the above mentioned sections failed to disguise it well enough, which made it feel kind of tideous, even from an IN-CHARACTER perspective. Likely just a matter of personal preference.
The adventure is fine as is. I only miss more social encounters in the third module (the rakhasas are wasted, its true potential is social), and a more elaborate revolution in the sixth (the assault on the castle did not need to be so long)
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I am playing in 2 groups doing this AP, the 1st group has just finished Chapter 4, no I did not read the spoiler. The ONLY disappointment I've had so far is the beginning of Chapter 3 and then again with the beginning of Chapter 4. I really don't care for what I will call "MMO Questing", this being quests that blatantly make you GO HERE, GO THERE, GO HERE, GO THERE about a dozen times. I'm pretty sure our party(group #1) was partly to blame for this in Chapter 3, but in Chapter 4 the whole story is given to you IN THIS FORMAT from the start. I suppose you could argue that is what D&D is, but IMO the above mentioned sections failed to disguise it well enough, which made it feel kind of tideous, even from an IN-CHARACTER perspective. Likely just a matter of personal preference.
Term I've heard used for this is Fed Ex Quest. Thing is your generally choosing roughly between this style of gaming in which many smaller scenes are parceled out or between mega dungeons (Castles, tombs cave complexes etc. etc.).
Structurally its very difficult to break an adventure up into many component parts in order to create many interesting and exciting scenes without having lots of Fed Ex quests built in. If one thinks about a good action flick from this perspective you can probably break the movie down into the action hero essentially getting what amounts to one Fed Ex Quest after another in order to stick him (or her) into one death defying location after another.
Hence we are down to the nitty gritty of constraints within adventure design. We can have a mega location - works as a Sandbox and the players can do what they will in the sandbox though they are usually trying to accomplish something in the location. Fun and popular style of gaming but no longer pretty much the only way to play - as was the case maybe 20 years ago (God I'm getting old).
Alternatively, many popular adventures know try and break things up to be more like modern action movie where the players are moved from one interesting scene to the next. This however generally involves many Fex Ex Quests given out by NPCs. These NPCs are essentially the glue that holds the adventure together - without them there is no coherent way to move the players on to the next interesting scene.
These really are the two main ways of dealing with an adventure - mega sandbox locations or spliced into scenes connected by Fed Ex Quest givers.
There are some other alternatives but they tend to have issues. One is the road adventure - players try and get from point A to point B and they encounter interesting scenes along the way. Most of the time this just feels like a less dynamic version of many Fed Ex quests - its very similar except without the NPC interaction. This sort of thing works best if there is something interesting about the road, A exploration mission into Darkest Mwangi, a race against the clock through Break Neck pass to warn the Five Nations of Good about the impending atatck by the minions of the Darklord, or a journey into the depths of the Underdark. This sort of thing makes the road, and traveling it, interesting and it works in these cases but otherwise road adventures are usually second best to the many Fed Ex Quest option since Fed Ex Quests provide one with the opportunity to introduce NPCs that might play an interesting role later.
Finally one can have something really dynamic involving all sorts of clues and leads and such like. When the players figure out the clues they move themselves to the next interesting location. Call of Cuthulu is famous for doing this really well. Its really, really, hard to pull off and D&D does not make the task any easier. Occasionally we'll get this sort of thing in a published adventure and when its done well the adventure gets heaps of praise but its a rare thing and not likely to come about that often.
There might be other ways of setting up an adventure beyond this but I can't think of any.
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I once changed "There is No Honour" the first adventure in the STAP into an Eberron investigation (the PCs were members of the Watch). The trick is to pull each section of the adventure apart and see if you can have a common thread.
Then add a corpse with clues that the PCs could interpret as being part of different locations.
Now the PCs are investigating this murder and showing up in all sorts of crazy places.
Term I've heard used for this is Fed Ex Quest. Thing is your generally choosing roughly between this style of gaming in which many smaller scenes are parceled out or between mega dungeons (Castles, tombs cave complexes etc. etc.).Structurally its very difficult to break an adventure up into many component parts in order to create many interesting and exciting scenes without having lots of Fed Ex quests built in. If one thinks about a good action flick from this perspective you can probably break the movie down into the action hero essentially getting what amounts to one Fed Ex Quest after another in order to stick him (or her) into one death defying location after another.
I've also heard that term, not often enough to remember it however. The "movie scene" breakdown example helps ease my opinions some as I'm a huge movie fan. As I said it's likely a matter of personal preference and "group #1"(I'm in 2 of this AP atm) is not real big on "gather information", so it's partly our fault as well. Being a 'retired' player of quite a few MMOs it's also likely that I'm just not "reading the text" and clicking accept to all of the quests... bad habit in MMOs, even worse in P&P RPG. "Now who in the heck were we suppose to take these 36 chicken legs and 52 brown rocks to again?! Oh yea, that guy in that place with the thingy!" Sound familiar? LOL!
Honestly having an issue with one section or even one chapter out of 6... that still rates a pretty damn good AP IMO! Not everything is going to please everyone, all the time... that would be a dull world.
I once changed "There is No Honour" the first adventure in the STAP into an Eberron investigation (the PCs were members of the Watch). The trick is to pull each section of the adventure apart and see if you can have a common thread.
Then add a corpse with clues that the PCs could interpret as being part of different locations.
Now the PCs are investigating this murder and showing up in all sorts of crazy places.
This really works as well - though, in the end, you'd probably find that what your looking for is a mix of clues leading to the next scene or clues leading to an NPC that can be interrogated to lead you to the next scene.
In the end these are still basically Fed Ex Quests but there is something about the PCs proactively going to find the NPC that makes it much more palatable. While it seems tired and boring to have the NPC approach you at the bar and get you to go on the quest it never really gets boring cornering some NPC down a dark alley and intimidating him into sending you on your Fed Ex quest. They are the same thing from an adventure design (or adventure structure maybe) standpoint but players much prefer the proactive version. Thing is it also requires them to be paying much better attention. If your sent by a friendly NPC to do something you can always go get more info (well usually anyway). If you track down the petty crook and force him to divulge secrets with the threat of violence its not so easy to go back if your forgot to ask a key question.
I've also heard that term, not often enough to remember it however. The "movie scene" breakdown example helps ease my opinions some as I'm a huge movie fan. As I said it's likely a matter of personal preference and "group #1"(I'm in 2 of this AP atm) is not real big on "gather information", so it's partly our fault as well. Being a 'retired' player of quite a few MMOs it's also likely that I'm just not "reading the text" and clicking accept to all of the quests... bad habit in MMOs, even worse in P&P RPG. "Now who in the heck were we suppose to take these 36 chicken legs and 52 brown rocks to again?! Oh yea, that guy in that place with the thingy!" Sound familiar? LOL!Honestly having an issue with one section or even one chapter out of 6... that still rates a pretty damn good AP IMO! Not everything is going to please everyone, all the time... that would be a dull world.
I got no issue with whether or not you like the adventure. My real agenda here was to point out that structural limitations within adventure design really bring us, by and large, to only two possible adventure designs, sandboxes or episodic scenes and that one is pretty much forced to use NPCs giving out Fed Ex Quests if one goes with episodic scenes. That'd be true for both good adventures made of episodic scenes and bad ones.
Though it sounds like your down on a History of Ashes Personally thats second only to Kings of the Rift for favorite adventure in an AP.
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I once changed "There is No Honour" the first adventure in the STAP into an Eberron investigation (the PCs were members of the Watch). The trick is to pull each section of the adventure apart and see if you can have a common thread.
Then add a corpse with clues that the PCs could interpret as being part of different locations.
Now the PCs are investigating this murder and showing up in all sorts of crazy places.
This really works as well - though, in the end, you'd probably find that what your looking for is a mix of clues leading to the next scene or clues leading to an NPC that can be interrogated to lead you to the next scene.
In the end these are still basically Fed Ex Quests but there is something about the PCs proactively going to find the NPC that makes it much more palatable. While it seems tired and boring to have the NPC approach you at the bar and get you to go on the quest it never really gets boring cornering some NPC down a dark alley and intimidating him into sending you on your Fed Ex quest. They are the same thing from an adventure design (or adventure structure maybe) standpoint but players much prefer the proactive version. Thing is it also requires them to be paying much better attention. If your sent by a friendly NPC to do something you can always go get more info (well usually anyway). If you track down the petty crook and force him to divulge secrets with the threat of violence its not so easy to go back if your forgot to ask a key question.
Yeah before I started the game I told the players:
"This is an investigation game, so you'd better put your brains in gear and focus. Because if you miss a clue, you might just fail to solve the murder and that won't look good on your Watch House at all."The players got really into it and to this day it's still their favourite adventure that I've run for them.
Another way to get the players pro-actively involved in adventures is the "heist" or "caper" style adventure. Basically the PCs need a McGuffin of some description (maybe it's the magic sword the fighter really wants so that the PCs can finally start dragonslaying). The McGuffin is in a place that is heavily guarded, but publicly accessible (like a bank).
The GM has to think of the place's normal day to day business operations, how it's guarded and trapped (like a regular dungeon). But in this scenario the PCs can use disguise/invisibility/sneak or what have you to 'case the place' and basically get a layout of the dungeon, come up with a plan and take the McGuffin hopefully avoiding combat or keeping it to a minimum. Of course never realising the inevitable complication (a rival band of thieves or even just a layer of security that their casing didn't uncover). This style of adventure is amazingly fun because it puts the PCs in a very powerful role and forces them to think smart about how they are going to approach the situation since they probably don't want to attract the attention of the law. This style of adventure is suited best from low-to mid-levels.
Guys keep the spoilers down as there is a player reading this thread.
Players should not be reading these threads as it amounts to cheating. It's quite impossible to have any type of conversation without revealing SOME spoilers. A player can click on the spoiler link as easily as anyone reading the board, and every post reveals SOME part of the story that may be a spoiler to someone, so technically we should all be seeing nothing but a bunch of spoiler buttons.... which would be really silly.
To Players.... if you're reading a discussion thread of the game you're currently in, it's the same as sitting in the store reading through the module. You succeed in nothing but spoiling your own fun.
Players should not be reading these threads as it amounts to cheating.
But if you check the OP you'll see that this thread was started by a player in order to give feedback on his play experience.
I did find that the first adventure threw the players into the middle of things with the abrupt death of the King. I personally just extended the time after the fishery adventure by two sessions, just having them run around the city and having fun, letting them get a feel for the place with the hint that things were starting to turn into a powder keg. Then, when the King died, they felt a little bit more involved when all hell broke loose.
I think it's all a matter of timing and how you incorporate it into your own game. The setting, as is, did it fine.
Players should not be reading these threads as it amounts to cheating.But if you check the OP you'll see that this thread was started by a player in order to give feedback on his play experience.
Tbug has it right - players should not read random threads but they can physically start the thread themselves to ask questions and what not and then the onus is on any DMs reading the thread to be careful with the spoilers for adventures after the ones the player has been through.
Players should not be reading these threads as it amounts to cheating.But if you check the OP you'll see that this thread was started by a player in order to give feedback on his play experience.
...which is perfectly fine once the campaign is done, at which point the spoiler point is moot because the player isn't a player anymore. However, even some of the thread TITLES can be spoilers based on how DMs are structuring their campaigns and how close to the chest they are playing their cards. So I still say... players reading the boards are GOING to pick up information they shouldn't regardless of how liberally the spoiler button is used.
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Unless we are talking with DM and Player at the same time due to some issue arising between them about the campaign and they seek the advice of other GMs, then we should be careful about what information is given to players. We aren't in control of their games, but the information we give out could very well damage the games they are playing. I wouldn't want to be accomplice to that.
So, in short, I agree with Tiger Lily.
<snip> I had stopped reading this thread a while ago mostly because the whole point of my post went over the head of most of the posters who like fanboys just started screaming how awesome Paizo is and nothing better could be done. <snip>
[sarcasm] What a shame that we don't agree with you. So far you have started two threads, both of which harp on how bad the AP line is, and you don't seem to get a lot of sympathy in either one.
I don't see us as "fanboys" (a term of derision thrown out by those that don't like something at those that do -- and a term I am finding I despise). I see a large group of players and GMs, some who have run this AP more than once, trying to answer your questions and queries only to see you dismiss our advice and information as being wrong or irrelavent to what you really wanted -- us to jump on your hate bandwagon.
Sorry to disappoint you. [/sarcasm]
Hey, Gary, if you're reading, I think you can stick a fork in this thread as being done ;p
Another way to get the players pro-actively involved in adventures is the "heist"...
If you've not already seen it might I suggest picking up a copy of The Aundairian Job by Craig Shackleton in one of the later print issues of Dungeon Magazine as its an excellent version of this style of play. That said I feel that this kind of a mission is probably best used moderately sparingly. If its going to be the focus of a campaign then you really might want to consider Shadowrun simply because this is really the focus of what many Shadowrun games are about and the system handles this method of gaming exceptionally. Shadowrun is lethal in this regards, which really plays up the planning aspect, if you screw up and walk into an ambush because you your pre mission planning was faulty thats the end of your group. You'll be cut to ribbons in a few seconds of automatic weapons fire.
In D&D its only really appropriate for a certian kind of group make up and even then tends to work best in a fairly narrow band of levels. Enough abilities to accomplish the mission and have a number of ways of going about doing that without having so many resources that you can essentially auto solve the mission through the use of carefully bought scrolls.
...which is perfectly fine once the campaign is done, at which point the spoiler point is moot because the player isn't a player anymore. However, even some of the thread TITLES can be spoilers based on how DMs are structuring their campaigns and how close to the chest they are playing their cards. So I still say... players reading the boards are GOING to pick up information they shouldn't regardless of how liberally the spoiler button is used.
Worrying about whether or not a DM is playing their cards so close to their chest that the game will be damaged if the players even see thread titles is between an individual and their DM. Once a player has decided to post something its reasonable for others to answer the post but not particularly reasonable for us to answer the post by spoiling things for said player - especially if the player makes it clear where he or she is in the AP and asks that material after this point not be spoiled.