|
In the home campaign I DM, I recently converted my home campaign from D&D 3.5 to Pathfinder.
I had a villian cast repulsion to keep the PC's 35ft away from him while he tried to bribe them. They all failed their saves (except the wizard who was out of spells). The barbarian came up with the idea of bullrushing an the halfling rogue (who doesn't resist) into the repulsion field. Does this work? If it doesn't, what happens?
After that, the wizard came up with the idea of having the barbarian drink a potion of fly, pick up a couple of PCs, flying above the repulsion, then dropping the PCs. Does this work? If it doesn't, what happens?
The barbarian came up with the idea of bullrushing an the halfling rogue (who doesn't resist) into the repulsion field. Does this work? If it doesn't, what happens?
It works or the barbarian could have just picked him and tossed the halfling. Once in the area the halfling could still not have approached. The spell prevents one from moving towards the caster, but its not a force field nor does it cease to function once your past that 35ft line.
"If you move closer to an affected creature, nothing happens. The creature is not forced back." Being tossed or bull rushed into the area would work just like the caster moving towards those affected. The PCs can simply not move towards the caster of their own free will and the caster could simply take a step back if the halfling was dropped, tossed, or bull rushed to close to the caster.
After that, the wizard came up with the idea of having the barbarian drink a potion of fly, pick up a couple of PCs, flying above the repulsion, then dropping the PCs. Does this work? If it doesn't, what happens?
Its the same as I mentioned above. They can get dropped high enough to be outside the affect, 35ft in your case, but once they hit the ground they could not move towards the caster. They would also take falling damage.
Hope that helps. At least your players where trying to creatively find a solution. =)
|
|
Hope that helps. At least your players where trying to creatively find a solution. =)
Thanks for the response...
How about the 11th level Rogue who decides to do a running jump into the field (and he will think of this)? Should this be ruled like the falling, since he can't control it once he leaves the ground. One DC 35 Acrobatics check later (I know his acrobatics is like +39) and he's right next to my NPC.
Repulsion seems like a really silly spell if it's can be so easily bypassed by skills, combat manuevers, and lower level spells.
From what you've said it sounds to me like a better way to run it would be like a modified Sanctuary... anytime they try to move close is when they loose that part of their action. It would at least defeat the jumping into the area.
"If you move closer to an affected creature, nothing happens. The creature is not forced back." Being tossed or bull rushed into the area would work just like the caster moving towards those affected. The PCs can simply not move towards the caster of their own free will and the caster could simply take a step back if the halfling was dropped, tossed, or bull rushed to close to the caster.
Taking another look at the spell... The first line of the text says "An invisible, mobile field surrounds you and prevents creatures from approaching you." and it's an abjuration... and not an enchantment or illusion, its not a compulsion or a mind-affecting spell.
Ugh. I think my NPC is going to Word of Recall away and I'll have to come up with something else to give him the time necessary to actually negotiate with them... Maybe a proxy of some sort?
|
No the Rogue cannot Jump at the BBEG as that is approaching and is really cheesy. And Bull Rushing someone towards the foe also breaks the spirit of the rule if not the letter. Just tell your players you failed your save and cannot approach the caster.
Remember in a jump you don't have to go the full distance rolled. Once the Rogue enters the field and presumably fails the save he must land immediately as the spell makes him abort his jump.
--Vrock the Casbah!
This would be hilarious.
Replace the notion of the repulsion effect with a brick wall that people can "will" away, if they have strong enough will-power.
Does being held in the arms of a big muscled behemoth while flying straight at a brick wall, or falling to the pavement from above, sound like a great idea?
Let's say you do will away the pavement ceiling. Can you will away the ground below?
Everyone who failed their will save the first time ends up as a flat bug, and anyone trying to fall at him will end up as a flat bug, one way or the other.
|
The only way for someone to 'enter' the field (assuming a failed save) is if the caster of said field moves closer to them.
An attempted bull rush, jump, throw, etc. would not allow someone who has failed their save to move closer, whether directly or indirectly. Only if the caster moves towards them can they indirectly 'enter' the field. Even then they cannot move closer themselves, only as close as the caster gets to them.
Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys
The only way for someone to 'enter' the field (assuming a failed save) is if the caster of said field moves closer to them.
An attempted bull rush, jump, throw, etc. would not allow someone who has failed their save to move closer, whether directly or indirectly. Only if the caster moves towards them can they indirectly 'enter' the field. Even then they cannot move closer themselves, only as close as the caster gets to them.
My understanding of the the spell is that it is not creating a Force Field or barrier. We can prove this as the spell description says " They (the repelled creatures) can fight other creatures and can cast spells and attack you (the caster) with ranged weapons.". I am also going that this is a mind-affecting spell as it has a will save. "Will: These saves reflect your resistance to mental influence as well as many magical effects. Apply your Wisdom modifier to your Will saving throws."
So what is preventing a person who is thrown into the area from going in? Granted once he lands he can't keep going in of his own free will. In example lets say he is launched against his will from a catapult. He would be the same as a weapon in my eyes and could not stop himself so would land inside the affected area.
I understand what you are saying, but not getting where the rules back up that line of thought is all. Can you share as I may have missed something.
|
|
The intent and purpose of the spell is to prevent all movement from an individual towards the caster if said individual failed his Will save.
Any creature within or entering the field must attempt a save. If it fails, it becomes unable to move toward you for the duration of the spell.
A person thrown at the caster is moving towards the caster, despite it being an indirect movement. The spell would prevent said movement if the thrown person had failed his save.
An individual that failed his save can get closer if the caster moves towards him, but he can never move towards the caster himself.
For help, think of it this way. If someone throws a baseball at you, is the baseball moving toward you?
Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys
The intent and purpose of the spell is to prevent all movement from an individual towards the caster if said individual failed his Will save.
Any creature within or entering the field must attempt a save. If it fails, it becomes unable to move toward you for the duration of the spell.A person thrown at the caster is moving towards the caster, despite it being an indirect movement. The spell would prevent said movement if the thrown person had failed his save.
An individual that failed his save can get closer if the caster moves towards him, but he can never move towards the caster himself.
For help, think of it this way. If someone throws a baseball at you, is the baseball moving toward you?
Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys
I think it comes down to this. You think its a Physical Barrier stopping living objects and I think because of the will save its a Mental Barrier. Both I think have a point for being correct as Abjuration effects do normally create physical barriers based on the school description. Its that its a will save that seems to me to say its a mental thing.
|
|
No, I don't think it's either. In fact I never said it was one or another. I merely quoted the spell, which says that a creature who has failed his save cannot move towards the caster.
This is very simple to understand. Throwing a person at the caster causes them to move towards the caster. The spell prevents this. I would advise against trying to complicate things by defining exactly what the 'magic' does. The spell is clear enough as it is.
Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys
|
|
"Will: These saves reflect your resistance to mental influence as well as many magical effects. Apply your Wisdom modifier to your Will saving throws."
I should have thought to check this too. Hmmm... I think the key phrase might be "as well as many magical effects." It sorta indicates that not all will saves are mind affecting or mental influence.
So what is preventing a person who is thrown into the area from going in? Granted once he lands he can't keep going in of his own free will. In example lets say he is launched against his will from a catapult. He would be the same as a weapon in my eyes and could not stop himself so would land inside the affected area.
This is a very good argument... I'd like to know too. Also, what happens if a character is dropped by our flying barbarian from say 100ft up on to the center of the top of the 35ft radius.
No, I don't think it's either. In fact I never said it was one or another. I merely quoted the spell, which says that a creature who has failed his save cannot move towards the caster.
This is very simple to understand. Throwing a person at the caster causes them to move towards the caster. The spell prevents this. I would advise against trying to complicate things by defining exactly what the 'magic' does. The spell is clear enough as it is.
Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys
I apologize for putting words in your mouth. My bad. Then no I don't understand what you are saying at all.
|
|
This is a very good argument... I'd like to know too. Also, what happens if a character is dropped by our flying barbarian from say 100ft up on to the center of the top of the 35ft radius.
This kind of thing amuses me greatly. If the dropped character makes his Will save, then he can fall to the ground by the caster just fine. If he fails? The spell prevents all movement towards the caster, so it is reasonable to think that the dropped character 'stops' at the top of the 35 ft. radius and hangs there so long as the caster is directly below him. If the caster moves then the character would feasibly fall an amount dependent on how far away the new 'bubble' was.
This is a perfectly good example of indirect movement. If it was so easy as to throw or drop a character in order to 'break through' the bubble, it would not be appropriate for a 6th or 7th level spell.
Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys
|
|
I apologize for putting words in your mouth. My bad. Then no I don't understand what you are saying at all.
1. The spell prevents movement towards the caster on a failed save.
2. Being thrown at a target is moving towards that target.3. If someone is thrown at the caster, they are moving towards the caster.
4. If the thrown person failed their save, they could not move towards the caster.
I'm not sure how to make it much simpler.
Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
|
The only way for someone to 'enter' the field (assuming a failed save) is if the caster of said field moves closer to them.
Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys
While I agree with your assessment of the hypothetical situations with this spell, I have to disagree with this statement. If you amend it to say "The only way for someone to physically enter the field (assuming a failed save) is if the caster of said field moves closer to them." then I would agree.
Someone could dimension door, teleport, etc. to enter the field, since they are not moving towards the caster, but simply redefining their current location without movement inbetween.
Another good tactic would be to dominate, charm, or suggest to the caster to approach you.
|
|
While I agree with your assessment of the hypothetical situations with this spell, I have to disagree with this statement. If you amend it to say "The only way for someone to physically enter the field (assuming a failed save) is if the caster of said field moves closer to them." then I would agree.
Someone could dimension door, teleport, etc. to enter the field, since they are not moving towards the caster, but simply redefining their current location without movement inbetween.
Another good tactic would be to dominate, charm, or suggest to the caster to approach you.
As it stands, the spell never mentions 'physical' movement. It simply states that the failed save character 'becomes unable to move' towards them for the duration of the spell. Dimension Door would be another method of moving towards the caster.
In this case, it is a bit more questionable, though I think the end result is the same. A character cannot move towards the caster if they failed their save, spell or otherwise. The spells Dimension Door and Teleport do not really go into the detail on how they work, so I recommend to keep things simple. Characters that failed their saves cannot, in any way, move towards the caster.
This is a high level spell and it does what it is meant to. I am willing to admit that my latter interpretation concerning teleportation spells may be in error, but I am otherwise 89.52% sure.
The enchantment method of domination or charming would work just fine.
Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys
|
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
|
I'd also say that 2 gates could get you inside the repulsion effect as well.
So could entering a portable hole and having an ally throw that into the effect, since the portable hole is not a creature and wouldn't be effected by the spell.
But now we're getting into more resource intensive ways to enter. It would probably be easier to just get our a bow and shoot the caster.
Could a character purposefully fail their Will save in order to remain levitating above the caster?
Just read the spell plainly and you'll understand. It is a barrier, even though it's not a [Force] effect. Abjurations hedge things out. The same could be said of Anti-life Shell, if you're a living creature you cannot penetrate the barrier.
That is a logical bit of information and I think I get it now. The will save was throwing me as I kept thinking Mind-Affecting, but its not. The spell uses a will save so that the spell can affect undead and constructs. Which fits with the "its a high level spell" stuff.
Thanks
|
|
Someone could dimension door, teleport, etc. to enter the field, since they are not moving towards the caster, but simply redefining their current location without movement inbetween.
I would have the caster roll a saving throw (if he has not already). Success of course gets him in. Failure means the spell ends just outside the Repulsion.
Another good tactic would be to dominate, charm, or suggest to the caster to approach you.
If the creature has already failed their saving throw versus Repulsion; the dominate, charm, or suggestion does not change the fact the creature has failed their save. These spells do not erase effects like mage armor, protection from evil, or acid arrow.
If the creature has not already failed their saving throw versus Repulsion the creature still gets a save which is not modified by the dominate, charm, or suggestion.
In case I'm missing somehting, can you explain your line of reasoning?
|
|
Someone could dimension door, teleport, etc. to enter the field, since they are not moving towards the caster, but simply redefining their current location without movement inbetween.I would have the caster roll a saving throw (if he has not already). Success of course gets him in. Failure means the spell ends just outside the Repulsion.
Another good tactic would be to dominate, charm, or suggest to the caster to approach you.If the creature has already failed their saving throw versus Repulsion; the dominate, charm, or suggestion does not change the fact the creature has failed their save. These spells do not erase effects like mage armor, protection from evil, or acid arrow.
If the creature has not already failed their saving throw versus Repulsion the creature still gets a save which is not modified by the dominate, charm, or suggestion.
In case I'm missing somehting, can you explain your line of reasoning?
In the second line of reasoning (the charming) the Repulsion effect really doesn't matter. Even if the charmer has moved towards the repulsion caster and failed his save, he can still cast Charm or Dominate effects just fine and get the repulsion caster to move towards him (likely his allies as well).
It was a suggested tactic to help negate the effects of the Repulsion, and could work just fine, assuming the repulsion caster fails their saves against the charms/dominates/etc.
Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys
|
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
|
Another good tactic would be to dominate, charm, or suggest to the caster to approach you.If the creature has already failed their saving throw versus Repulsion; the dominate, charm, or suggestion does not change the fact the creature has failed their save. These spells do not erase effects like mage armor, protection from evil, or acid arrow.
If the creature has not already failed their saving throw versus Repulsion the creature still gets a save which is not modified by the dominate, charm, or suggestion.
In case I'm missing somehting, can you explain your line of reasoning?
If you mentally influence the caster of repulsion, and command/convince him to approach you, the replusion doesn't push you out, so in effect, you can get within the repulsion by enticing the caster to come to you instead.
|
|
So could entering a portable hole and having an ally throw that into the effect, since the portable hole is not a creature and wouldn't be effected by the spell.
True, but when you tried leaving the portable hole you slam into the effects of the repulsion. If you fail or have already failed the save, you'd be trapped in a portable hole... And what's to stop the bad guy from walking up to it and folding it?
I'd also say that 2 gates could get you inside the repulsion effect as well.
Only because of the line that says, "... and anyone or anything that moves through is shunted instantly to the other side."
So, yeah, when you tried going through the gate you'd be shunted instantly to the other side and then have to deal with the effects of the repulsion. So yeah, I think that would get you to a specific 5ft square... But then the villian repulsion has been cast on, he can just move away from the gate and you...
|
|
In the second line of reasoning (the charming) the Repulsion effect really doesn't matter. Even if the charmer has moved towards the repulsion caster and failed his save, he can still cast Charm or Dominate effects just fine and get the repulsion caster to move towards him (likely his allies as well).It was a suggested tactic to help negate the effects of the Repulsion, and could work just fine, assuming the repulsion caster fails their saves against the charms/dominates/etc.
Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys
Oh... Lols... My whole mindset was in trying to defeat the repulsion and not the villian with repulsion cast on him.
Of course casting ranged spells at the repulsion target works... And a spell that can manipulate repulsion target and make him come closer to you is about the most efficient way to defeat the spell I can think of. Kudos JoelF847, well thought of.
|
|
If you mentally influence the caster of repulsion, and command/convince him to approach you, the replusion doesn't push you out, so in effect, you can get within the repulsion by enticing the caster to come to you instead.
Yup... Gotcha now. I was of the mindset of defeating the repulsion and not the villian with repulsion. I see the error of my ways. =)
Oh... Lols... My whole mindset was in trying to defeat the repulsion and not the villian with repulsion cast on him.Of course casting ranged spells at the repulsion target works... And a spell that can manipulate repulsion target and make him come closer to you is about the most efficient way to defeat the spell I can think of. Kudos JoelF847, well thought of.
Or simply asking him to drop it so that you can hand him the very delicate, ancient scroll of super powerful magic you want him to help interpret for you.