Again, I think you're underestimating the effective +7 bonus (+5 for continuing to grapple, -2 to opponent's Dex) compared to the -4 penalty.Try and kill a level-appropriate foe with a one-handed attack, one attack per round. Never mind the -4, it's the bad weapon, lack of 2h mojo, and lack of multiple attacks.
Wait -- I thought you were comparing this to 3.5 grapple, namely: "It used to be grapplers grabbed you and then shanked you to death. Now, not so much." In 3.5, you still had a bad weapon (worse, in fact, because you couldn't use a 1-handed weapon) and lack of 2h mojo. The loss of multiple attacks is a bit disappointing, but if you have Greater Grapple you wouldn't really notice the difference (between PFRPG and 3.5) until level 11 at least (and those attacks at -10 aren't really that effective at any rate).
I like to think of it as the team-effort. Pins make most monsters far more manageable to hit (and less risky); this actually allows your fellow heroes to effectively damage the enemy. If an enemy is at the level where simply smacking it is sufficient to kill it, then that's great.
I know there have been a couple of fights where I was thankful that I clamped down on an enemy spellcaster before things got too far out of hand. And given that I need to maintain the pin (and given the high boss CMDs this is anything but automatic) this is more than just challenging.
The "Just One Finger" feat from Golarion Campaign setting can give monks a very big grappling advantage from level 11 onwards, btw.
I haven't read all the way through this thread, but it is an issue that I was just struggling with. And having just bought the Bestiary made the issue even more obvious. How? Let's take a balor as an example...
CMB +33
CMD 54
Anyone else see the problem?
It is almost impossible for a balor to grapple another balor!!!! Surely it should be a fairly even contest, requiring perhaps a 12 or better to grapple something else exactly like yourself?
My suggestion is to halve the BAB in CMD. This would give the balor:
CMB +33
CMD 44
Requiring an 11 to make a grapple.
Problem actually arose in a high level campaign I'm currently running where a 22nd level H green dragon could not grapple a 27th level L balor (a mix of 3.5 and PF rules, and both had class levels, but point remains the same).
I haven't read all the way through this thread, but it is an issue that I was just struggling with. And having just bought the Bestiary made the issue even more obvious. How? Let's take a balor as an example...
CMB +33
CMD 54Anyone else see the problem?
It is almost impossible for a balor to grapple another balor!!!! Surely it should be a fairly even contest, requiring perhaps a 12 or better to grapple something else exactly like yourself?
My suggestion is to halve the BAB in CMD. This would give the balor:
CMB +33
CMD 44Requiring an 11 to make a grapple.
Problem actually arose in a high level campaign I'm currently running where a 22nd level H green dragon could not grapple a 27th level L balor (a mix of 3.5 and PF rules, and both had class levels, but point remains the same).
You ever watch 2 evenly matched wrestlers try to grapple eachother? It generally amounts to a whole lot of nothing untill someone gets lucky. The intent of the rules were that against an even oponent it shouldnt be easy or even possible to do combat manuevers. Instead you should be doing those manuevers against weaker opponents or when lots of bonuses (bard songs, and other buffs) are stacked up.
I haven't read all the way through this thread, but it is an issue that I was just struggling with. And having just bought the Bestiary made the issue even more obvious. How? Let's take a balor as an example...
CMB +33
CMD 54Anyone else see the problem?
It is almost impossible for a balor to grapple another balor!!!! Surely it should be a fairly even contest, requiring perhaps a 12 or better to grapple something else exactly like yourself?
Not necessarily. A balor is incredibly agile, with a force field around itself; it makes a certain amount of sense to say that it can easily avoid a grapple.
Likewise, for a weak but highly agile creature, it makes sense that grappling might be an exercise in futility.
You ever watch 2 evenly matched wrestlers try to grapple eachother? It generally amounts to a whole lot of nothing untill someone gets lucky.I haven't read all the way through this thread, but it is an issue that I was just struggling with. And having just bought the Bestiary made the issue even more obvious. How? Let's take a balor as an example...
CMB +33
CMD 54Anyone else see the problem?
Two responses:
1) Define 'lucky'! A natural 20, 18-20, 15-20, 10-20? All of these are lucky in that they are all rolls of a die. What we are trying to quantify in the rules is, 'how lucky'. It is as likely that the one balor will roll a natural 1 as a natural 20. Perhaps the rule for combat manouvers should be that a nat 1 is an automatic escape or grapple (disarm, etc) for the opponent, their choice. In the evenly matched wrestlers case, each person then has a 10% chance???
2) Even in the evenly matched wrestlers case, I would suggest that the grapple has a much better *chance* of succeeding than 1 in 20. What we see is that the AoO and the escape from the grapple either prevent the grapple or break the grapple, rather than the grapple not succeeding qua grapple. The usually automatic AoO, alone, reduces the chance of a successful grapple substantially!
And, anyway, two professional mixed martial artists is a far cry from two average anything elses! Put me up against someone my own relative strength, health, experience, etc and I bet we both get each other into a grapple fairly easily. I might slide out of it fairly easily next round, but I don't think I could escape it so easily.
So, two balors, equally agile and very familiar with how their own bodies/defenses work should be able to succeed on a grapple reasonably often (noting that AoOs will likely prevent many of the grapples anyway).
I would agree that any person/creature with improved unarmed strike or its equivalent should have the current CMD. But everyone else should have a reduced CMD (half of the BAB, say).