Since the wizard forums are down for quite some time, and I tend to get some info from them regularly, I'll ask here.
I'm trying to make up a pretty decent summoner -- I'd prefer elementals or outsiders, but in the end it can be anything. I'm wondering what people think is a good route to becoming a good summoner, and not a necromancer.
I'm considering cleric -> Malconvoker, and the "Summoner".
Any tips?
Since the wizard forums are down for quite some time, and I tend to get some info from them regularly, I'll ask here.
I'm trying to make up a pretty decent summoner -- I'd prefer elementals or outsiders, but in the end it can be anything. I'm wondering what people think is a good route to becoming a good summoner, and not a necromancer.
I'm considering cleric -> Malconvoker, and the "Summoner".
Any tips?
Obviously, Spell Focus conjuration and Augment Summoning. There are also some nice elemental buffing feats in the Frostburn and Eberron stuff.
You might want to consider Extend Spell (to keep them around longer), Empower Spell (to summon more of them), Reach Spell (to buff them while they're in combat--and you're not!), and the Sudden versions of these. Even Quickened summonings are useless, as they fill up the battlefield with lots of minor beasties the BBEGs have to go through before getting to you.
Cleric is a good choice, especially if you choose the Alignment Domains, because they add +1 round (CL) to spells that summon critters of their alignment....at least in 3.5....I don't know what changes Pathfinder did to the Domains. Also, in Pathfinder, you can burn Turn Attempts to heal your allies--and your summoned nasties are your allies.
EDIT:
I also made summoning specialist class, but it hasn't been playtested yet.
Invoker (working title)
Abilities: High Intelligence is needed to cast spells and have more skill points. High Charisma is important to use certain class features and to negotiate with summoned, conjured, or called creatures. Like all spellcasters, high Dexterity and Constitution scores help them avoid and resist damage.
Class Features:
BAB: +1/2
Good Saves: Fortitude and Will
Hit Dice: 1d6
Class Skills: Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Knowledge (arcana, nature, religion, the planes), Profession, Sense Motive, Speak Language, Spellcraft.
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4
Skill Points at each additional level: 4 + Int modifier
Invokers are proficient in all Simple Weapons, Light Armor, and all Shields (except tower shields).
Invokers cast arcane spells like beguilers. They determine bonus spells based on Int, must have an Int of 10 + the spell level to cast a spell, and add their Int bonus to the Save DCs (if any) to the spells they cast. Invokers can cast their spells while wearing light armor and using shields. Invokers use the beguiler spells per day listing in the PH2, and they can cast any spell from the invoker list of spells known, plus any additional spells added to the list by their Spell Knowledge class feature at higher levels.
LEVEL ABILITY
1. Armored Casting, Augment Summoning
2. Rapid Summoning (standard action)
3. Invoker's Guile +1 or Selective Summoning 1
4. Spell Knowledge
5. Bonus Feat
6. Invoker's Guile +2 or Selective Summoning 2
7. Improved Augment Summoning (+6)
8. Spell Knowledge
9. Invoker's Guile +3 or Selective Summoning 3
10. Bonus Feat
11. Rapid Summoning (move action)
12. Invoker's Guile +4 or Selective Summoning 4, Spell Knowledge
13. Improved Augment Summoning (+8)
14. Invoker's Legion
15. Bonus Feat, Invoker's Guile +5 or Selective Summoning 5
16. Spell Knowledge
17. Wardwrecker
18. Invoker's Guile +6 or Selective Summoning 6
19. Improved Augment Summoning (+10)
20. Bonus Feat, Rapid Summoning (swift action), Spell Knowledge
Armored Casting. The invoker can cast arcane spells from the invoker spell list while wearing light armor and/or while using a light or heavy shield.
Augment Summoning. At 1st level, the invoker gains Augment Summoning as a bonus feat, even if he doesn't meet the prerequisites. The invoker's Augment Summoning feat improves at 7th level, allowing him to add +6 to the summoned creature's Strength and Constitution scores. At 13th level, this improved to +8, and at 19th level to +10.
Rapid Summoning. A number of times per day equal to the invoker's Charisma bonus (minimum once per day), the invoker can cast a conjuration summoning spell that normally has a casting time of 1 full round as a standard action. This improves to a move action at 11th level and to a swift action at 20th level.
At 3rd level, the Invoker chooses either the Invoker's Guile or Selective Summoning ability. Once the choice is made, it can never be changed for that character.
Invoker's Guile. The invoker adds the listed bonus to the duration (in rounds) of his conjuration (summoning) spells, up to a maximum equal to his Charisma bonus. The invoker also adds this bonus to caster level checks and Save DCs when using any abjuration or conjuration spell, and to any opposed rolls against a creature the invoker has conjured, summoned, or called, or against a creature the invoker is attempting to force back to its proper plane, such as Dismissal or Banishment.
Selective Summoning. At 3rd level, when the invoker summons a creature, the invoker may exchange one non-bonus feat of the summoned creature for another feat the summoned creature would otherwise qualify for. At 6th level, and every 3 levels beyond 6th (9th, 12th, 15th, 18th), the invoker may exchange an additional feat. The Invoker can only exchange a maximum number of feats in this way equal to his Charisma bonus (minimum 1).
Spell Knowledge. At levels 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20, the invoker may add an abjuration spell or a conjuration spell from another spellcaster's list of spells to his list of known spells.
Bonus Feat. At levels 5, 10, 15, and 20, the invoker gains a bonus feat from the list below. He must meet all requirements of the selected feat.
Arcane Defence (CA), Arcane Mastery (CA), Arcane Thesis (PH2), Cloudy Conjuration (CM), Dimensional Jaunt (CM), Dimensional Reach (CM), Energy Abjuration (CM), Favored Magic Foe (CM), Greater Spell Focus, Greater Spell Penetration, Imbued Summoning (PH2), Magic Disruption (CM), Metamagic School Focus (CM), Mystic Backlash (CM), Negotiator, Persuasive, Rapid Metamagic (CM), Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, Summon Elemental (CM), or any Metamagic feat that can be applied to an abjuration or conjuration spell.
Invoker's Legion. At 14th level, any creature the invoker summons can use its own innate summoning abilities, if any. For example, if a 14th level invoker used Summon Monster 7 to summon a red slaad, that red slaad could attempt to summon another red slaad.
Wardwrecker. At 17th level, any creature the invoker summons can bypass the magical protections of other spellcasters as if they were not summoned creatures. For example, the creatures summoned by the invoker would be able to have bodily contact with someone under the effects of a Protection from Evil spell or enter an area warded by Magic Circle versus Evil. The invoker's summoned creatures cannot enter his magical protections unless invited in by the invoker.
Invoker Spells Known.
0: Acid Splash, Arcane Mark, Create Water, Detect Magic, Read Magic, Prestidigitation, Resistance.
1: Alarm, Detect Chaos/Evil/Good/Law, Grease, Mount, Protection from Chaos/Evil/Good/Law, Sanctuary, Summon Monster 1, Summon Nature's Ally 1, Unseen Servant.
2: Summon Monster 2, Summon Nature's Ally 2, Status, Summon Swarm.
3: Dispel Magic, Invisiblity Purge, Magic Circle against Chaos/Evil/Good/Law, Nondetection, Phantom Steed, Summon Monster 3, Summon Nature's Ally 3.
4: Antiplant Shell, Dimensional Anchor, Dismissal, Lesser Planar Ally, Minor Creation, Repel Vermin, Spell Immunity, Summon Monster 4, Summon Nature's Ally 4.
5: Break Enchantment, Contact Other Plane, Dispel Chaos/Evil/Good/Law, Leomund's Secret Chest, Lesser Planar Binding, Major Creation, Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound, Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum, Summon Monster 5, Summon Nature's Ally 5.
6: Antilife Shell, Antimagic Field, Banishment, Greater Dispel Magic, Planar Ally, Planar Binding, Repel Wood, Repulsion, Summon Monster 6, Summon Nature's Ally 6, Word of Recall.
7: Creeping Doom, Drawmij's Instant Summoning, Ethereal Jaunt, Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion, Phase Door, Sequester, Spell Turning, Summon Monster 7, Summon Nature's Ally 7.
8: Cloak of Chaos, Dimensional Lock, Greater Planar Ally, Greater Planar Binding, Greater Spell Immunity, Holy Aura, Maze, Mind Blank, Protection from Spells, Repel Metal or Stone, Shield of Law, Summon Monster 8, Summon Nature's Ally 8, Trap the Soul, Unholy Aura.
9: Astral Projection, Elemental Swarm, Etherealness, Freedom, Gate, Imprisonment, Mordenkainen's Disjunction, Shambler, Summon Monster 9, Summon Nature's Ally 9, Time Stop.
Thanks for the reply!
I might give this class a try through. I have a few concerns, though If I may.
I think the Rapid summoning is a bit too powerful. I think it should stop at Standard, personally. In exchange, perhaps they should be able to summon an extra creature of the same type when they successfully summon something at hose advanced levels.
Second, I like the flavor of Ward-wrecking, but I think it's a tad too powerful as is. I can't tell you why, it just 'feels' too powerful.
Lastly, I love the spell list. What if we added summon undead to the list and perhaps one or two direct fire spells, like magic missile or some sort of area attack? Summons re awesome, but every mage should have a sort of versatility.
mho. Thanks!
Thanks for the reply!
I might give this class a try through. I have a few concerns, though If I may.
I think the Rapid summoning is a bit too powerful. I think it should stop at Standard, personally. In exchange, perhaps they should be able to summon an extra creature of the same type when they successfully summon something at hose advanced levels.
Second, I like the flavor of Ward-wrecking, but I think it's a tad too powerful as is. I can't tell you why, it just 'feels' too powerful.
Lastly, I love the spell list. What if we added summon undead to the list and perhaps one or two direct fire spells, like magic missile or some sort of area attack? Summons re awesome, but every mage should have a sort of versatility.
mho. Thanks!
Thanks for the feedback.
I think the Rapid Summoning is balanced by the fact that it is usable only a few times per day. It is based off of Charisma, which isn't the primary casting ability of the class, so it requires having high scores in several abilities to be useful.
I do like the idea of summoning extra critters when summoning multiple critters. Maybe allow that as an alternative class feature for Invoker's Legion?
Wardwrecker is a bit powerful. Maybe require a Caster Level check with a DC of 5, 10, or 15 + the abjurer's caster level?
EDIT:
I didn't include any direct damage spells because this class is designed to be focused on summoning. If you want direct damage effects, summon something that has direct damage effects. Or choose a spell that does direct damage for your Spell Knowledge class feature at levels 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20.
Thanks for the feedback.
I think the Rapid Summoning is balanced by the fact that it is usable only a few times per day. It is based off of Charisma, which isn't the primary casting ability of the class, so it requires having high scores in several abilities to be useful...
Fair enough! Here's what I've got so far, if you are curious:
BAB: +1/2
Good Saves: Will
Hit Dice: 1d6
Class Skills: Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Knowledge (arcana, nature, religion, the planes), Profession, Sense Motive, Speak Language, Spellcraft.
Skill Points at per Level: 2 + Int modifier
Invokers are proficient in all Simple Weapons & Light Armor.
Invokers cast arcane spells like beguilers. They determine bonus spells based on Int, must have an Int of 10 + the spell level to cast a spell, and add their Int bonus to the Save DCs (if any) to the spells they cast. Invokers can cast their spells while wearing light armor. Invokers use the beguiler spells per day listing in the PH2, and they can cast any spell from the invoker list of spells known, plus any additional spells added to the list by their Spell Knowledge class feature at higher levels.
Invoker Class
1. Armored Casting, Augment Summoning
2. Rapid Summoning (standard action)
3. Invoker's Guile +1 or Selective Summoning 1
4. Spell Knowledge
5. Bonus Feat
6. Invoker's Guile +2 or Selective Summoning 2
7. Improved Augment Summoning (+6)
8. Spell Knowledge, Invoker's Legion
9. Invoker's Guile +3 or Selective Summoning 3
10. Bonus Feat
11. Rapid Summoning (move action)
12. Invoker's Guile +4 or Selective Summoning 4, Spell Knowledge
13. Improved Augment Summoning (+8)
14. Wardwrecker
15. Bonus Feat, Invoker's Guile +5 or Selective Summoning 5
16. Spell Knowledge
17. --
18. Invoker's Guile +6 or Selective Summoning 6
19. Improved Augment Summoning (+10)
20. Bonus Feat, Rapid Summoning (swift action), Spell Knowledge
Armored Casting: The invoker can cast arcane spells from the invoker spell list while wearing light armor.
Augment Summoning: At 1st level, the invoker gains Augment Summoning as a bonus feat, even if he doesn't meet the prerequisites. The invoker's Augment Summoning feat improves at 7th level, allowing him to add +6 to the summoned creature's Strength and Constitution scores. At 13th level, this improved to +8, and at 19th level to +10.
Rapid Summoning. A number of times per day equal to the invoker's Charisma bonus (minimum once per day), the invoker can cast a conjuration summoning spell that normally has a casting time of 1 full round as a standard action.
At 3rd level, the Invoker chooses either the Invoker's Guile or Selective Summoning ability. Once the choice is made, it can never be changed for that character:
Invoker's Guile: The invoker adds the listed bonus to the duration (in rounds) of his conjuration (summoning) spells, up to a maximum equal to his Charisma bonus. The invoker also adds this bonus to caster level checks and Save DCs when using any abjuration or conjuration spell, and to any opposed rolls against a creature the invoker has conjured, summoned, or called, or against a creature the invoker is attempting to force back to its proper plane, such as Dismissal or Banishment.
Selective Summoning: At 3rd level, when the invoker summons a creature, the invoker may exchange one non-bonus feat of the summoned creature for another feat the summoned creature would otherwise qualify for. At 6th level, and every 3 levels beyond 6th (9th, 12th, 15th, 18th), the invoker may exchange an additional feat. The Invoker can only exchange a maximum number of feats in this way equal to his Charisma bonus (minimum 1).
Spell Knowledge: At levels 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20, the invoker may add an abjuration spell or a conjuration spell from another spellcaster's list of spells to his list of known spells.
Bonus Feat: At levels 5, 10, 15, and 20, the invoker gains a bonus feat from the list below. He must meet all requirements of the selected feat:
Arcane Defence (CA), Arcane Mastery (CA), Arcane Thesis (PH2), Cloudy Conjuration (CM), Dimensional Jaunt (CM), Dimensional Reach (CM), Energy Abjuration (CM), Favored Magic Foe (CM), Greater Spell Focus, Greater Spell Penetration, Imbued Summoning (PH2), Magic Disruption (CM), Metamagic School Focus (CM), Mystic Backlash (CM), Negotiator, Persuasive, Rapid Metamagic (CM), Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, Summon Elemental (CM), or any Metamagic feat that can be applied to an abjuration or conjuration spell.
Invoker's Legion: At 8th level, you summon double the amount of creatures that would normally be available upon summon. For example, if you would normally get one creature when you cast a summon monster, you instead receive two.
Ward-wrecker: At 14th level, any creature summoned by the invoker may have a chance to bypass special protections that would otherwise deny the creature access to an area (ie, protection and ward spells). The creature may make a will save (or make an addition will save if the spell already allows a save) to bypass the protection. If the save fails, the protection is successful and the creature acts as normal. Otherwise, the summoned creature may bypass the ward or protective area as if the effect were not there.
In any case, thanks for the help!
Thanks for the feedback.
I think the Rapid Summoning is balanced by the fact that it is usable only a few times per day. It is based off of Charisma, which isn't the primary casting ability of the class, so it requires having high scores in several abilities to be useful...
Fair enough! Here's what I've got so far, if you are curious:
** spoiler omitted **...
Looks good, but DOUBLING the number of creatures summoned might be a bit extreme. Also, you left 17th level empty, which is kind of a pet peeve of mine.
Might I suggest....
Invokers Legion (Ex). At 8th level, when you summon multiple lower-level creatures with a Conjuration (summoning) spell, you summon 1 additional creature. At 14th level, this improves to Improved Invokers Legion, and you summon 2 additional creatures. At 20th level, you gain Greater Invokers Legion and you summon 3 additional creatures.
Wardwrecker is moved back to 17th level. I think it should be a relatively high level power since it "breaks" one of the cardinal rules of summoning....a summoned critter cannot break circle. Just watch Supernatural or read some Jim Butcher. Anyways, since those spells normally don't allow a save at all, I would propose the Invoker make a Caster Level Check with a DC of 10 or 15 + the circle inscriber's caster level, since it is the Invoker's will that is allowing his summoned nasty to break the ward--and the supernatural laws of the multiverse.
Thanks for the feedback.
I think the Rapid Summoning is balanced by the fact that it is usable only a few times per day. It is based off of Charisma, which isn't the primary casting ability of the class, so it requires having high scores in several abilities to be useful...
Fair enough! Here's what I've got so far, if you are curious:
** spoiler omitted **...
Looks good, but DOUBLING the number of creatures summoned might be a bit extreme. Also, you left 17th level empty, which is kind of a pet peeve of mine.
Might I suggest....
Invokers Legion (Ex). At 8th level, when you summon multiple lower-level creatures with a Conjuration (summoning) spell, you summon 1 additional creature. At 14th level, this improves to Improved Invokers Legion, and you summon 2 additional creatures. At 20th level, you gain Greater Invokers Legion and you summon 3 additional creatures.
Wardwrecker is moved back to 17th level. I think it should be a relatively high level power since it "breaks" one of the cardinal rules of summoning....a summoned critter cannot break circle. Just watch Supernatural or read some Jim Butcher. Anyways, since those spells normally don't allow a save at all, I would propose the Invoker make a Caster Level Check with a DC of 10 or 15 + the circle inscriber's caster level, since it is the Invoker's will that is allowing his summoned nasty to break the ward--and the supernatural laws of the multiverse.
I like that. Thanks!
I like that. Thanks!Thanks for the feedback.
I think the Rapid Summoning is balanced by the fact that it is usable only a few times per day. It is based off of Charisma, which isn't the primary casting ability of the class, so it requires having high scores in several abilities to be useful...
Fair enough! Here's what I've got so far, if you are curious:
** spoiler omitted **...
Looks good, but DOUBLING the number of creatures summoned might be a bit extreme. Also, you left 17th level empty, which is kind of a pet peeve of mine.
Might I suggest....
Invokers Legion (Ex). At 8th level, when you summon multiple lower-level creatures with a Conjuration (summoning) spell, you summon 1 additional creature. At 14th level, this improves to Improved Invokers Legion, and you summon 2 additional creatures. At 20th level, you gain Greater Invokers Legion and you summon 3 additional creatures.
Wardwrecker is moved back to 17th level. I think it should be a relatively high level power since it "breaks" one of the cardinal rules of summoning....a summoned critter cannot break circle. Just watch Supernatural or read some Jim Butcher. Anyways, since those spells normally don't allow a save at all, I would propose the Invoker make a Caster Level Check with a DC of 10 or 15 + the circle inscriber's caster level, since it is the Invoker's will that is allowing his summoned nasty to break the ward--and the supernatural laws of the multiverse.
I'm glad you like it! I might even change my "official" version to match that.
Here's what I've got. Hope you like it:
Next up is the Summoner. I should note that the title for this one is still a bit temporary as it does not quite convey the concepts we are looking for. This class is focused on the creation or summoning of a monster combatant or guardian. Think of it as a sort of arcane animal companion that is a magical beast, outsider, or aberration instead of an animal. While the class will still be able to cast arcane spells, in a bit more of a limited fashion than a sorcerer, it will have a number of abilities to enhance and empower its creation. Some of these will be able to be applied on the fly, while others will happen only when the summoner gains levels. The class will have a list of abilities that can be added to a monster as you gain levels, with more powerful abilities made available to use in your monster's construction at higher levels. To top it off, the class will be a bit variable in theme. You could be a pious summoner, creating a divine champion to guard and protect you, or you could be a foul chirurgeon, creating your monster from the corpses of other dead monsters.
Yaaaaaaaaay.