http://www.pathfinderdb.com/character-options/spells/133-charm-person
I often find that the charm subschool has clunky mechanics because it requires a lot of DM decision making about what the charmed creature would believe/want/do. In addition, the opposed Charisma check mechanic didn't make sense to me for simplicity. Since the Diplomacy rules already cover a lot of negotiation mechanics, I thought I'd combine the two and produce a more specific description for what Charm Person does and under what circumstances the recipient receives a new saving throw.
Obviously this would cascade to Charm Monster, Mass Charm etc
Thanks for the feedback.
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I gotta tell you, I thought it was hilarious when I noticed that after saying how you don't like the charisma check mechanic, then in the table you list the DCs is titles Charisma Check DC instead of Diplomacy Check, I now have to rant and rave about how you've ruined Pathfinder because I'm not sure if it's a diplomacy check or a charisma check. Just a bit of editing for you :)
I'll look at it more detailed, but it seems solid right now.
LOL... fixed...I was going back and forth trying to decide whether it should be a Charisma check as the original intent of the spell, or to allow the caster to use their diplomacy ranks as well.
In the end, I figured Sorcerers and Bards use this spell as one of their "must-haves" so why not allow them to take advantage of their Diplomacy ranks.
The only other thing I considered was changing the DCs to take into account the creature's Sense Motive or Diplomacy as well, just to make it scale better when cast at higher level characters.
I'd use the the target's Diplomacy modifier. Otherwise, it becomes almost Dominate Person fairly quickly. At 10th level, it's not pushing things that far to have a diplomacy check of
+6 (22 Cha) + 13 (10 ranks, class skill) + 6 (skill focus) = +25.
At that point, to get "aid that will result in harm/punishment to creature or its allies", you're rolling 1d20 against that targets charisma modifier, which is likely +0 to +2.
That requires one feat, which is a pretty obvious feat to take if you use a lot of Charm spells.
Even if you do use the target's diplomacy modifier, that only helps if the target has ranks in the skill.
Having just read the diplomacy skill, I'm sort of shocked with how trivial it gets at higher levels. If I wanted to max out Diplomacy, I'd add +1 (Trait) +4 (Persuasive) +3 (Circlet of Persuasion) for an extra +8, totalling +33. My minimum check is 34, so any hostile create with a charisma of less than 28 I can automatically talk down to indifferent. Assuming the DC modifier of +15 or more is just 15, it will then go along with a request to give aid that results in punishment, followed by a second, similar request. (The second request would fail if I roll a 1 on the check and it has a Charisma of 26.)
As a minor nit, the spell is listed as "Charm Person*", which made me look for the footnote.
I'd use the the target's Diplomacy modifier. Otherwise, it becomes almost Dominate Person fairly quickly. At 10th level, it's not pushing things that far to have a diplomacy check of
+6 (22 Cha) + 13 (10 ranks, class skill) + 6 (skill focus) = +25.
At that point, to get "aid that will result in harm/punishment to creature or its allies", you're rolling 1d20 against that targets charisma modifier, which is likely +0 to +2.
That requires one feat, which is a pretty obvious feat to take if you use a lot of Charm spells.
Even if you do use the target's diplomacy modifier, that only helps if the target has ranks in the skill.
Having just read the diplomacy skill, I'm sort of shocked with how trivial it gets at higher levels. If I wanted to max out Diplomacy, I'd add +1 (Trait) +4 (Persuasive) +3 (Circlet of Persuasion) for an extra +8, totalling +33. My minimum check is 34, so any hostile create with a charisma of less than 28 I can automatically talk down to indifferent. Assuming the DC modifier of +15 or more is just 15, it will then go along with a request to give aid that results in punishment, followed by a second, similar request. (The second request would fail if I roll a 1 on the check and it has a Charisma of 26.)
Right, this is the sort of thing I was thinking of. The opposed Charisma check exists to balance the fact that at higher levels, Diplomacy just wins. So... I'm trying to think of a mechanic where if you look at a NPC entry, you can use their Diplomacy modifier without needing to figure out how many ranks they have.
So, it would be... DC of X + Cha Modifier or X + Target's Diplomacy Modifier, whichever is higher.
Sound reasonable?
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Having just read the diplomacy skill, I'm sort of shocked with how trivial it gets at higher levels.
I have a 6th level PC with a Diplo check that's just utterly ridiculous if I use the DCs in the skill text. I've upped the DCs by 5 points and I'm thinking about going further, but I think the sweet spot will be about +8 and that will make the math a little worse...