Show me a class in the PRD that brakes HD/BAB other then a d12 class, show me where in the core rules it shows how to convert of build a new class, oh wait that's what the conversion guide is for . As this is a conversion yes it should fallow such guidelines even a new class should fallow official guidelines. The core rules do not tell you how to convert a class or give guidelines that is what the official conversion document is for.
Sorry but when the official guidelines and core rules do not work for proof your back to" well because" which is a poor reason. And it's not fully compliant it's a "well we used the rules we agreed with"
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Show me a class in the PRD that brakes HD/BAB other then a d12 class, show me where in the core rules it shows how to convert of build a new class, oh wait that's what the conversion guide is for . As this is a conversion yes it should fallow such guidelines even a new class should fallow official guidelines. The core rules do not tell you how to convert a class or give guidelines that is what the official conversion document is for.
Sorry but when the official guidelines and core rules do not work for proof your back to" well because" which is a poor reason. And it's not fully compliant it's a "well we used the rules we agreed with"
Um... just because the PRD doesn't... doesn't mean that it shouldn't happen. That just goes to show that the sample size is sufficiently small that such a case does not exist within said sample size.
It only means that none of the players handbook classes are worthy of bypassing said rule...not that the rule CAN'T or even SHOULDN'T be broken.
There is also the fact paizo has said a few times BAB/HD are linked. It is a rule if not they would not have bumped so many classes HD up to match BAB, but they did. They also do it with PRC and it is an official rule in conversions. So yeah it is a rule.
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There is also the fact paizo has said a few times BAB/HD are linked. It is a rule if not they would not have bumped so many classes HD up to match BAB, but they did. They also do it with PRC and it is an official rule in conversions. So yeah it is a rule.
The first rule of DnD: "There are no rules that require blind adherence"
Any rule can be broken in the name of balance. In this case, that rings true. Give it up. You're being a rules lawyer. Any rule can be broken if it is done for the right reason. And this is the right reason. Soulknife does not fit squarely into any one spot, so you run the average and put it in the middle...where it will be comfortable. It doesn't break anything. If anything it will under power the class so there is a buffer in this.
There is also the fact paizo has said a few times BAB/HD are linked. It is a rule if not they would not have bumped so many classes HD up to match BAB, but they did. They also do it with PRC and it is an official rule in conversions. So yeah it is a rule.
Yes, just like all the classes whose HD they bumped down to match BAB.
Which is around... zero?
Name me one class with a higher HD then BAB in core. And yes it's like saying ya know what we like the old PRC saves better so all are PRC use them. There is no rule saying HD may not be bumped down, there is a rule saying BAB/HD must match
Its a simple rule and since the class is almost a total rework there is zero reason not the bring it in line. There is zero reason for it to have a melee HD if you do not make it a full front liner
Why are we arureing over this again anyhow. They chose not to use the rules, I have pointed to the official rules that state BAB/HD must match. I do not like it nor will I use a class I have to convert that is suppose to be converted. To me It comes off as a 3.5 product saying its fully pathfinder when it is not.
Edit: I will point out that monsters now also work off BAB/HD and some of them in fact did bump down. They had no issues doing that why would they have an issue doing it to a class? the simple answer is no class had to be all went up as none in core had a higher HD then BAB. But they ya go they do indeed bump HD down if needed
Anyhow over look my rant I am gonna stop derailing this thread now
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15. Class feature choices like arcane bond or hunter's bond are cool. Psions ought to get to choose between a psicrystal and something else flavorful like wizards do.
Pretty much agreeing with everything Charlie said in his point-by-point list, but this one in particular appeals to me.
Psicrystals are okay, but I'd love to see at least three other options for 'psionic familiars,' including animated objects / tools / weapons (favored by telekineticists / apporters), psi-sensitive animals (favored by mind over body types and telepaths, and fans of Alan Dean Foster) and astral presences (favored by seers and telepaths). The astral presence, in particular, might not even be able to manifest while the psychic is conscious, and go by names like fetch and duppy and 'soul-self,' moving forth incorporeally to scout and reconnoiter on behalf of it's 'owner.'
Hi, I'm kind of new to this discussion here but I've been involved on the Dreamscarred site for a week or so. The same comments that I have seen here about the balance between casters and manifesters were there, so I wrote a little comparison to show the differences here.
What emerges is that if you assume a casting/manifesting stat score of 20, then yopu get the following:
Psion gets 393 power points, and 36 powers.
Wilder gets 393 power points, and 11 powers (but he has his Wild Surge).
PF Sorcerer gets 512 power points equivalent of spells, and 52 spells.
Suddenly psionics don't look so amazing. The complaint that powers (particularly damaging ones) were too flexible compared to spells (actually only a few powers are that flexible) looks lame when you compare the number of powers a psion gets (let alone a poor wilder) to the number of spells a sorcerer gets. The fact that a psion or wilder can augment powers is balanced by the fact that the sorcerers spells effectively augment without taking up a higher spell slot.
As for the Energy powers that generate up to four types of energy, I will point out that the Wilder is the 'blaster' of the psionics world. But they get very few powers precisely because of the nature of the powers they would most likely use. Take it away, and the wilder, with 11 powers, just sucks. Either you increase his number of powers, or you leave it as is. Having played it, I personally would never say it was unbalanced.
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Thing is that it is very unlikely a sorceer would use all of his spells in a day, not even come close to it. And at high levels it is very unlikely the psion or wilder would either. It just becomes a big number that is good for nothing. Furthermore what should be compared is how many times they can cast/manifest their strongest power/spell at any given lvl, since those are the ones that will be used more often (almost always) by the psion and the sorcerer during combat in a more significant way.
No, but it does illustrate the differences in design concepts and the balance of abilities. Taking the same yardstick measurement at other levels generally yields the same results - the sorcerer has more spells than the psion or wilder have powers, and he has more casting power.
Your own yardstick is just as useless - just because you have a high level power does not make it useful in every situation, and if it isn't any use it may as well not be there at all. What is the point of being able to cast a spell or manifest a power that is useless in the circumstances? The variety of powers available is just as important, because then you are able to select the spell or power most appropriate to the situation. This is why most people take wizards over sorcerers - they have less spell-power per day (I calculated 350 power points worth at level 20), but they can select those spells from a far greater list of spells.
Further more, how do you rate the 'most powerful ability'? If you make it the 'highest level spell/power' then the psion wins, as well you know. If you make it 'any ability that inflicts (character level) dice damage or better' then the sorcerer can cake-walk the contest because his abilities do not need to be augmented to scale up. At 5th level, even his 1st level spells inflict this and only take up a 1st level spell slot. A psion or wilder has to augment even his first level powers to the equivalent of a 3rd level spell slot to achieve the same effect.
For example, if we make this a blasting competition between our level 20 sorcerer and our level 20 psion, let's see how many dice each can do:
Psion: Tornado blast, augmented to 20 power points will dish out 28d6 damage (if it hits), nineteen times for 380 power points and 532d6 damage. After that he can throw in an energy ball for another 13d6, so he's dished out 545d6 damage (this only works if he is a kineticist, BTW).
Sorcerer: six Meteor Swarms for 32d6 each, for 176d6. Then he follows with six polar rays for 20d6 damage each (plus Dexterity damage, but we'll ignore that) for another 120d6 for 296d6. Then he lets off six delayed blast fireballs, for yet another 120d6 damage total, for 414d6. After that, he kicks off six chain lightning spells for another 120d6 damage, taking us to 536d6 damage. Then he adds seven cones of cold for another 105d6 to bring us to 641d6. As he doesn't have any kick ass 4th level spells he just uses them and his 3rd level slots to cast Fireball fourteen times for another 140d6 of damage, taking us to 781d6. Then as we're getting a bit bored now he'll blow all his 1st and 2nd level slots on fifteen shocking grasps for another 75d6 damage to cap us off at 856d6 damage total.
In short, in the 20d6 damage+ class of spell/power, the sorcerer has 24 shots, the Psion 19. Importantly, though, this leaves the sorcerer with a LOT of spells he can still crank out, while the psion has sweet fanny adam.
If you want to equate this to a 'real' situation, the psion may well be augmenting his lower level powers rather than using his highest level one. This costs the same amount, but to the sorcerer the automatic scaling can make his 7th and 8th level spells equivalent to the ninth-level spells equivalents that the psion is cranking out. The psion CAN use his top level power more often, but to use his lower level powers at the same scale as the sorcerer he has to treat them ALL as his highest level power.
We can rerun this at lower levels if you like, but I'm confident the results will be the same - the psion can nova better than the sorcerer, but the sorcerer lasts longer and does more in the long term.
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And still all that damage would be less likely to be dished out as it would require many more actions (dice caps on damage are annoying). However psionics give much more verstility as their limit for a single standart action damage output is set by themselves, not a damage cap. And that is for ALL (or at least most) of their damaging powers.
Furthermore I have seen sorcerers clinguing to his higer lvl spels and saving them for some later encounter while the party psion dishes out his biggest guns (ussually less damage related than not) just making sure he has enought PP to sue it a couple more times later against the big bad guy.
On top of all that there is the not so little difference of when they achieve higuer lvl spells/powers. As everyone can agree on being beind one lvl can be the difference between life and death. But of course the wizard is there to justifiy the progresion. However it is also accepted that the psion has more on the spot versatility than the wizard.
So we have more versatility than the sorcerer and faster spell progression, and less restictions on the use of our speedly aquired powers. And all in exchange of durability (which unless a hack and slash module is being used does not come up that often)
Just one more thing, wizards are still probably mor altogether powerfull that the psion. However it requires much more efford on the player´s part to make it so than with the psion. That just doesn´t sit well with me.
And still all that damage would be less likely to be dished out as it would require many more actions (dice caps on damage are annoying). However psionics give much more verstility as their limit for a single standart action damage output is set by themselves, not a damage cap. And that is for ALL (or at least most) of their damaging powers.
Oh I agree, it's an unreal situation, but it illustrates the point that the psion has to pay for augmentation while the sorcerer gets it for free. How often are you going to unleash that kind of attack more than once or twice in an encounter? Rarely, I think is the answer. Hence being able to do so six times or twelve or nineteen is a redundant question. From our example above, you can see that it pretty much costs the psion the same to manifest powers of levels 7 and 8 as it does powers of level 9. The sorcerer has 18 spells of that level, which compares well to the 19 that the psion can churn out.
Furthermore I have seen sorcerers clinguing to his higer lvl spels and saving them for some later encounter while the party psion dishes out his biggest guns (ussually less damage related than not) just making sure he has enought PP to sue it a couple more times later against the big bad guy.
That's really a case of resource management, and certainly having a point-based system gives one more flexibility - that is the strength of the psion, no mistake. The situations I have often been in is where the psionic character has to hover at the back of the party because they ran out of power points faster than the sorcerer or even the wizard ran out of spells, and they had to husband what was left. The psion still has less resources to manage than the sorcerer, whichever way you look at it.
On top of all that there is the not so little difference of when they achieve higuer lvl spells/powers. As everyone can agree on being beind one lvl can be the difference between life and death. But of course the wizard is there to justifiy the progresion. However it is also accepted that the psion has more on the spot versatility than the wizard.
Dude, the sorcerer has more on-the-spot versatility than the wizard, as he has more variety of spells known at any given time and he often chooses spells that have more general rather than specific use. The wizard, on the other hand, has the ability to select specific spells for a specific situation - that is his strength.
Edit: I have not, myself, found being one spell-level behind that vital most of the time. Sometimes, but not all that often.
So we have more versatility than the sorcerer and faster spell progression, and less restictions on the use of our speedly aquired powers. And all in exchange of durability (which unless a hack and slash module is being used does not come up that often)
I would argue that the psion does NOT have more versatility than the sorcerer - I don't know where you get that from. They have better resource management of the resources they have, but they have less resources to start with. The sorcerer has a broader selection of spells to choose from by far, more spells known (52 against the psions 36 powers) and more casting power. The fact that a few of the psion's powers are more flexible than the sorcerer's spells doesn't completely make up the difference, either.
Edit: Also, I have been in some non-hack-and-slash adventures that seriously depleted powers and spells. Combat is not everything.
Just one more thing, wizards are still probably mor altogether powerfull that the psion. However it requires much more efford on the player´s part to make it so than with the psion. That just doesn´t sit well with me.
Well there you go, that's a matter of swings vs roundabouts. You can play the class that's more powerful but is more effort, or one of the less powerful classes (sorcerer or psion) that is also less effort. If all your arguments boil down to "Well, I just don't like that it's easier, even if it isn't actually more powerful" then it's a matter of taste and opinion, not mechanics.
Edit: there was at one time a metamagic feat that allowed a sorcerer to 'stack' spell levels together to blow two slots on a higher level spell than the highest slot. This would be an addition that would assist the Sorcerer's resource management.
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Well I think we can agree on many points here, and that it mostly comes down to a matter of opinion.
And you are right, my wording was faulty (damn english as a second language). The sorcerer has more versatility due to knowing more spells altogether. However thepsion has a much better control over their management.
Also one of things that kind of bugs me is different concepts being thrown around the DSP forums on how to make psions have at will abilities like cantrips, which would take away their main weakness of running out of fuel.
In the end I don´t think psionics are overpowered, they are just unbalanced and disruptive in oh so many situations to the game dynamic due to their different system.
The best example I can give is 4th edition (bear with me here). It is supposed to be completly balanced as everything followes the same rules. It is a tight and steely system. However as I was reading reviews of what happened after point system based psionics was implemented it was even more clear how disruptive they can be even in an oversimplified system like 4E is.
The least that should be don with psions is at least slow down their progression to that of the other ¨spontaneous¨ caster. give it some kind of manifesting restriction so that it cannot do it while gagged and tied up (like other casters).
Do without the adding abilities as part of augmentation, just add damage dice with caps for. They will still have the resorce management aspect to make them unique but will me more on par with the rest of the game and it´s dynamics.
And as a side note, what saddens me is that all I see on the DSP forums is attempts to power them up and take away restrictions, no good.
Well I think we can agree on many points here, and that it mostly comes down to a matter of opinion.
And you are right, my wording was faulty (damn english as a second language). The sorcerer has more versatility due to knowing more spells altogether. However thepsion has a much better control over their management.
Agreed. It's easier for them, but this does not mean that vancian casters cannot manage their resources as well, they just have to work harder at it.
Also one of things that kind of bugs me is different concepts being thrown around the DSP forums on how to make psions have at will abilities like cantrips, which would take away their main weakness of running out of fuel.
I agree. I think they need some additional abilities but these should be more on the lines of 'uses per day' than free. Any 'free' ability should be very minor, along the lines of 'detect psionics' or some such, if at all.
In the end I don´t think psionics are overpowered, they are just unbalanced and disruptive in oh so many situations to the game dynamic due to their different system.
This is more a case of DM's not being used to the system rather than being a fault with the system itself. I have seen the same effect from bringing in the Spell Compendium or some other supplement the DM was unfamiliar with.
The best example I can give is 4th edition (bear with me here). It is supposed to be completly balanced as everything followes the same rules. It is a tight and steely system. However as I was reading reviews of what happened after point system based psionics was implemented it was even more clear how disruptive they can be even in an oversimplified system like 4E is.
No comment, as I simply don't know enough of 4e psionics, because I think 4e sucks donkey balls as well as all the fun out of the game.
The least that should be don with psions is at least slow down their progression to that of the other ¨spontaneous¨ caster. give it some kind of manifesting restriction so that it cannot do it while gagged and tied up (like other casters).
Problem is, the psion is NOT meant to be compared with the sorcerer as a 'spontaneous' caster - he is meant to be the equivalent of the wizard. Further, the Spirit Shaman is a 3.5 example of a spontaneous caster that has the same spell progression as a prepared caster. It's not hard and fast, and as you have stated the wizard is still in most circumstances better.
Do without the adding abilities as part of augmentation, just add damage dice with caps for. They will still have the resorce management aspect to make them unique but will me more on par with the rest of the game and it´s dynamics.
Which makes augmentation sub-par. The point is, points spent = spell level equivalent. Take the spell-level out of the DC for the sorcerer's spells and see how that feels - not nice! When you augment a power, you in effect heighten it, you need the higher DC to match the expenditure or you have to spend all your power slots just upgrading to better versions of powers you already have in order to stop everything making it's save DC constantly - and you don't have that many slots to know powers. The restricted number of powers is the reasoning here. A kineticist can't get a delayed blast energy ball the way sorcerer has delayed blast fireball.
And as a side note, what saddens me is that all I see on the DSP forums is attempts to power them up and take away restrictions, no good.
Most of what I have seen so far is actually within the limits you want to see - very few suggestions of completely 'free' powers, and most suggested additional features are not along those lines.
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My problem with DC increase augmentation is that it gives free highten, as simple as that. A first level power should to some extent equal to a first level spell on it´s save DC. And as it stands it doesn´t.
You said it yourself that the point of psoonics is great resource management, this does not take away from it. However it does bring their Dc more to par with spells. And the fact that points are subpar ought to be the downside of the great management of their system.
And of course Highten power ought to exist as a separate feat, just give the ability to increase a power´s DC fo every 2 extra points you spend on it through augmentation. But not for free.
Point taken on the speed progression, I can live with it. However manifesting restrictions would also help on making it more accepted. The whole gagged and bound psion manifesting easily is just unpsetting to many DMs.
Give me a psion with flavorfull (not powerfull) class abilities. Limit the augmentations to damage and give a cap to the damage of most powers (so the DCs stay skin to spells). Make it so they need some kind of movement or focus for them to manifest. And I guarantee you that most DMs would find it hard to deny psionics for mechanical reazons.
There you and I will differ, because powers aren't spells. They are equivalent to them in many ways, but they aren't them. If a psionic character has to use a 'higher spell slot' just to get the same damage out of a spell as a sorcerer's 1st level spell, then they should reap the positive reward of having to pay that price. If you don't think it's fair then we should remove the need to augment at all.
As for the gagged and bound psion, it's a true advantage only in a very limited number of situations, and still requires a concentration check. I genuinely cannot think of any situation I've had any character in, in the last few years, where this made any difference. More often is the complaint that psionics are not obvious, which is countered by the manifesting display that they produce.
Me too, that's what I love about Paizo's boards ...
Due to the lenght of this post I will try to break it up the best way I can.
Forgive me if I am not reading the entire thread before posting. Since you're soliciting participation for design, here's a few design points I'd emphasize. I'm sure some of these things will be things you've already considered and discarded or things that have already been debated ad nauseam.
2. Nerf vigor. I read already why you think it's not OP but try balancing it against false life instead of against cure light wounds and you will see why it is. When a d6 hit die psion can crank out a max augmented vigor and end up with significantly more hp than the party tank, there's a problem. A simple reduction to 3 temp hp/PP would suffice... 30 temp hp at 10th manifester level is not out of line.
The player side of me loves this power, but the DM side does think its a bit much. I do run difficult campaigns so I have never nerfed it, but its not for everyone. I do think 3pp would be a better fit.
3. Psionics don't need to have the full range of capabilities of arcane and divine spellcasting. The fact that psionics have different capabilities, just like arcane and divine spellcasting have different capabilities than each other, contributes to their distinctiveness. Psionic healing *shouldn't* be as good as clerical healing, for instance. Cloud mind sucks enormously in comparison to invisibility and *that's OK* because there are things that psionics does better than arcane magic. BIG HOWEVER, for psionic base classes to function in published adventures, major capabilities offered by psionics need to come at around the same levels an arcane or divine caster could achieve those capabilities. For instance, if a psion can fly before 5th level or teleport before 9th level, they can wreck an AP. Also please look at clairsentience powers like object reading and sensitivity to psychic impressions with the same scrutiny as Paizo did with find the path... those kind of effects, which can be gotten as early as 3rd level, are full of adventure circumvention potential.
+1, I cant remember the name of the power, but there is one that imitates rope trick that is not availible until around you can use 6th or 7th level powers. That one should come down to being a 4th or 5th level power.
4. The flexibility of the energy...This should be left alone. An arcane caster can take feats that allow it to change the energy type and still stack other feats on top of it. If DSP is going to change this then psions should be able to stack feats or find another way to change the energy type and still empower the power.
8. Transparency (SR). SR should work against psionics; no need to have PR that does the exact same thing and also works against spells, only is called something different. That just creates unnecessary confusion.
I think the reason for both PR and SR is so that if a DM wants to treat them seperately he can. I do think it makes more sense that way, but for the sake of ease of play I use the tranparency rules.
As for UMD/UPD I think that these along with spellcraft and psicraft should not be affected by the transparency rule because magic and psionic should be different enough that it would not make sense to use one to affect the other for this case. If you have never seen a psion there would be no way to know what the power does. Most people, adventurers or not would never be able to tell you the difference between a psion and a spellcaster, unless they have encountered both types or have studied them.
I dont think it's game breaking for everything to be tranparent, but it may break immersion for some.
On number 14 which spoke of the psionic focus I would not see an issue with it being regained automatically.
I will stop at 14, and try to cover the rest tomorrow.
My problem with DC increase augmentation is that it gives free highten, as simple as that. A first level power should to some extent equal to a first level spell on it´s save DC. And as it stands it doesn´t.
The heighten is a requirement for psions to be effective because they can't trade their powers out like sorcerers can do with spells, and they dont get the number of spells/powers that sorcerers do, so in order to stay effective they have to use powers that always stay useful or at least stay useful longer than spells would.
Hi Wraithstrike,
I agree with you on some fronts but not on others.
Vigor - I've never used this power ... and I wondered who would. Hit points are a great defence of course, but for most manifesters the principal of not actually getting hit in the first place by sticking at the back of the party and raising their AC is probably even better. Inertial Armour works better with it's longer duration for less outlay - 1 power point for +4 AC is always worthwhile. The class that would use this more than any other is the psychic warrior, who knows he's going to take hits. As he starts with less hit points and lower BAB than most front line fighters, what effect does this have?
Comparing psychic warrior with a fighter, assuming full hp at first level, then half max +1 for each level after that, and assuming the fighter has a Con of 16 and the psychic warrior 12 (not unreasonable, the PW needs a good stat for wisdom) then at 5th level the fighter has 52 hit points and the PW has 34. He also has 14 power points, assuming his wisdom is at 16 (not unreasonable, but it's a trade off: lower wis = higher con = more hit points = less power points). Now he can boost his hit points by 25 for any given encounter, pushing him over the fighter's total to 59. But that costs 5 power points, and leaves him empty at four encounters/day by encounter 4. It also leaves him unable to use his other powers which he also needs to augment his offensive ability. If he expends 2-3 power points per encounter, he's only getting +10 or +15 hit points, which still leaves him below the fighter's maximum. It's a handy buffer, but it's not over powered.
The Rope-Trick-U-Like power is a 2nd level in Complete Psionic, Psychoportive Shelter.
Energy flexibility: I'm with you there. If you look at the Wilder, the Blaster of the psionic world, they get only 11 powers, total. At level 20. They NEED that flexibility, or they will suck donkey balls, big time, when they find their only powers don't work on the enemy. Further, direct damage is the least effective spellcasting option according to many, so is it that big a deal that psionic characters can be a bit better at it (in terms of flexibility, not damage) than casters?
PR/SR: I think Dreamscarred have it right in setting the default at transparent, and the option as different. I've played both, each has advantages and disadvantages.
Edit: That said, different is a headache for DM and player alike, and transparent is much easier for all.
I'm happy to see such a vigorous discussion and I wanted to state a few things. First of all, we're happy to hear your thoughts, but do feel free to come over to our forums at DreamscarredPress.com and see what's been said there. Naturally, most of the game mechanic discussions have been held over there, since it is "closer to home" for us designers.
Now, some people here seem to take offense at the fact that we didn't change the Hit Dice of the Soulknife. Now, the conversion document does state that HD and BAB are linked and that no class who didn't have d12's should get it in the future either. Fine.
Now, if keeping with the spirit and intent of the design rules is to keep to both how things were presented in the PFRPG Core Rulebook and the Conversion Document, which "by Paizo set rule and precedent" would you break:
- Never lowering the Hit Dice of a base class, even when that breaks HD+BAB linkage (such as with the Barbarian)?
- Never raising Base Attack Bonuses?
Regardless of which path we take, we would be breaking one of these CORE principles in the PFRPG, to ensure that we keep within the parameters of the Conversion Document. So, I am intrigued to hear which solution you guys feel is the "compatible" solution and perhaps most importantly - WHY is that design choice more compatible than the other?
Thankyou.
Also, just wanted to say that the insights and ideas given by all of the dedicated fans here, at ENWorld and at our forums HAVE changed many design choices we've made, from finetuning things to completely rehashing conceptual ideas. Looking forward to more of your ideas in response to the rules we post! :D
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- Never lowering the Hit Dice of a base class, even when that breaks HD+BAB linkage (such as with the Barbarian)?
- Never raising Base Attack Bonuses?
(If I've missed something about these, please let me know and direct me to where I can see it.)
I don't recall Paizo ever actually expressing either of these as a design principle. As far as I can tell, it's just how things worked out. The HD/BAB connection, however, has been expressly stated as a design principle, even though it is in (arguably) a non-core source (the conversion guide).
We know they meant the one, since they said so. We don't know that the points above were specifically intentional, or just how the cards fell...
Personally, I'd think that an expressed design principle should take priority over precedent.
(That said, I'm not taking it as a personal affront if you don't. 8^)
Edit: The above should acknowledge that the Barbarian HD was a stated exception. 8^)
This has been argued back and forth a lot in Dreamscared. Bottom line, they decided not to but gave the SK enough bonuses to hit that it really made no difference. I think, personally, that giving the SK full BAB would have gone a long way to resolving the relative weakness of the class, but Dreamscared thought different. Instead they have reworked the class with some new additions, new abilities, new lots of things. It actually works quite promisingly.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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Now, if keeping with the spirit and intent of the design rules is to keep to both how things were presented in the PFRPG Core Rulebook and the Conversion Document, which "by Paizo set rule and precedent" would you break:
- Never lowering the Hit Dice of a base class, even when that breaks HD+BAB linkage (such as with the Barbarian)?
- Never raising Base Attack Bonuses?Regardless of which path we take, we would be breaking one of these CORE principles in the PFRPG, to ensure that we keep within the parameters of the Conversion Document. So, I am intrigued to hear which solution you guys feel is the "compatible" solution and perhaps most importantly - WHY is that design choice more compatible than the other?
The general trend is that Pathfinderizing 3.5 material adds power. You rightly note that you're either going to break HD/BA linkage, or raise BA. I feel that raising soulknife BA is the "compatible solution". The WHY is the overall trend of increasing class power + HD/BA linkage, which is an explicit design goal. Plus soulknives could frankly use the boost since they are supposed to be primary meleers. I really hope this reply doesn't reopen the issue, but since you asked....
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Vigor - I've never used this power ... and I wondered who would. Hit points are a great defence of course, but for most manifesters the principal of not actually getting hit in the first place by sticking at the back of the party and raising their AC is probably even better. Inertial Armour works better with it's longer duration for less outlay - 1 power point for +4 AC is always worthwhile. The class that would use this more than any other is the psychic warrior, who knows he's going to take hits. As he starts with less hit points and lower BAB than most front line fighters, what effect does this have?
Anybody can benefit from more hps. Even if you are standing in the back, AoEs and enemy ranged attacks are probably going to be targeting you once they realize you are a threat. Everybody gets hit sooner or later. Plus, even psions can be melee focused- for example, a buff-heavy egoist using metamorphosis.
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Thanks to Set, wraithstrike, and anybody else who actually had the patience to wade through that hugongous Wall-O-Text I posted a few days ago; I really appreciate your comments. I really need to go over to DSP and check out the Alpha they have there so I can offer some more specific feedback.
I've just made a long post regarding an 'Alpha-2' Soulknife my group is currently playtesting on the Dreamscarred forum here.
For those who don't go often there, I will add it here. Please note that it's a little long and debates rules of the Alpha-2 version of the Soulknife, which you can find here.
Hi to all.After a couple of weeks, I have new fresh material regarding the powerful Skirmisher Kida (the Skirmisher Soulknife NPC of Herr_Malthus, who is currently GMing our group on Eberron).
First of all, let me start with a bit of a hyperbole: with 3.5, Kida sucked. No, really. She was horrible. With Alpha2 Soulknife, she owns. She owns us all. No kidding.
Now, a couple of considerations:
1) Kida was built with an Epic Progression build (25 points); this could make a difference, however, all our characters are made with the same system, so basically this evens all out.
2) Kida is a Strength-Monster. She started with a natural 18 in Strength (16 +2 racial), increased to 20, and added a Belt of Strength +4 on top of that. This leads to a Strength of 24 – like a full-fledged Fighter. This is one of the reasons of the awesome damage that she deals – but not the only one. She has also 18 Dexterity – a natural 16 and an item of Dex +2.
3) Kida has 4 Blade Skills: I have not her character sheet on sight, but I can reconstruct her choices, being Speed of Thought (+10 ft. due to her level), Twin Strike, Dual Imbue, and (the only one I’m not completely sure about) Full Enhancement
4) The most important unbalancing thing, and one of my main concerns regarding the Alpha Soulknife – magical equipment. This needs more explanations.Our group is slightly depowered regarding magical items – basically, being on a ‘race against time’ in an icy tundra, we had no place to find or forge better equipment. As a result, our 12th-level characters have (more or less) the GP Wealth of 11th level characters (around 80.000 gp value per member) – the Two-Handed Fighter is even poorer, having barely 70.000 gp of equipment (and only a +2 Two-Handed Sword). The other damage-dealer is a Fighter/Psychic Warrior/Warmind Half-Giant armed with a +2 Large Fullblade (note: the Fullblade was originally a weapon from 3.0 Sword and Fist, and later 3.0 Arms and Equipment – basically, a Medium sized Fullblade is a Bastard Sword made for Large characters that Medium-sized characters can wield two-handed with the Exotic Feat Proficiency. It deals 2d8 with a critical of 19-20/x2. Being Half-Giant, Korr the Fight/PsyWar/WarMind can wield a Large-sized Fullblade with the Exotic weapon Proficiency feat, dealing 3d8 base damage per hit. Basically, it’s a 15 ft. board made of iron).
Now Kida, being a Soulknife Skirmisher, has 80.000 gp of magical equipment AND two +5 weapons on top of that (thanks to Full Enhancement, her enhancement bonuses are not lowered). Instead of taking +4 weapons with a +1 special ability bonus, Kida made another choice: +3 Collision Blades (Collision is a +2 worth special ability that gives +0 to hit and +5 to damage to each attack). Being a flat bonus, this is also multiplied by a critical hit.
Adding all bonuses together, and thanks to her Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and Improved Critical (the latter was taken at 11th level, when she finally met the prerequisite of +8 BaB), her Full Attack is the following: Twin Blades +22/+17 (1d6+17, 17-20x2), +22/+17 (1d6+13, 17-20x2). Add on top of that her Boots of Speed, and she adds a +1 to all her attacks and yet another attack at +23 for 1d6+17, 17-20/x2 ! And all this equipment is completely legitimate, because she doesn't have to pay for her weapons !!!
All this doesn’t even take in consideration her Psychic Strike ability…5) Psychic Strike. Let’s not put into consideration the fact that Kida took a feat from Complete Psionic – Focused Mind Strike (which basically allows her to overcharge her Psychic Strike when imbuing one of her Mind Blades expending her Psionic Focus and adding +1d8 to the Psychic Strike damage). As Herr_Malthus told me, he could have taken Powerful Strikes instead of Speed of Thought – she would have ended with 10 feet less of movement, but with an extra Feat.
However, the fact is, with the Focused Mind Strike feat, Kida passes each morning recharging her Mind Blades. She has to 1) charge her Psionic Focus, 2) spend the Focus and charging one blade, 3) recharging the Focus, 4) discharging the focus and charging the other blade, and 5) recharging the focus one last time. Even taking in account one failure, she needs only 6 rounds between each encounter to prepare herself. The other option without feats from splatbooks allows her to recharge herself and her blades in only 3 rounds (and would allow her to deal more damage when using the Dual Imbue feature, since she cannot use the Dual Imbue and the Focused Mind Strike feat together – both the abilities require the expenditure of her Psionic Focus).6) Now, Kida walks around with her ‘charged blades of death’ which deal +4d8 each on the first attack, can be recharged for +2d8 (or +3d8, depending on the build) as a free action, and shoot hell on Earth. For one round only, true. But, this is more often than not, more than enough (she took down one Pathfinder Neothelid all by herself on the first round of fight). Even when discharged, she deals the damage aforementioned (1d6+17, 1d6+13). Powerful ? You betcha. Balanced ? Not quite so sure.
7) Have I mentioned the fact that Kida has the Hustle power as her Hidden Knowledge power? She can make a move with it, (swift action) then unleash Hell on Earth on a Full-Attack. Even at range, if she wants (her hit roll is only 3 points lower). And with Haste, on top of that. And again, she has suboptimal equipment, but it doesn't matter, since she has 100.000 ‘virtual gp’ on top of that (two +5 weapons).
8 ) Icing the cake… Disarm and Sunder do not matter also, because she can reform her blades as a free action (again !!!) the following round she has been disarmed/ sundered. Just like a Monk, only better (a Monk has to spend money to take an Amulet of Mighty Fists to deal a fraction of that damage, and he cannot take Fighter-only feats – while the Soulknife can, at least some of them)
9) And on top of that, all creatures take damage from the Psychic Strike – even creatures immune to Critical hits (it’s not a precision-based damage) or to mental effects (the description of the Psychic Strike feature says that such creatures take only 1d8 less of damage) – and even at long range (better than Rogues…).Now, I know this post could seem a little heated – the fact is, seeing in play all the goodies the Alpha2 Soulknife possesses, has given me the judgement that the class should be… reconsidered (at least, a little).
All of this is IMHO, of course.
DSP have just informed us that the Beta for the SK will involve full BAB, and some of the other features they introduced will be restructured ...
Where can you find the Beta PDF on this? Heck, I've been working my own conversions for the past few weeks, and dreaming about them since I got my mitts on the Pathfinder rules and using an old download of the old 1.0a OGL rules for 3.5. (and Yes I agree, Soulknife always needed BAB +1 per level, it's a pure fighter class and was an error from the get go, having actually played one). But hey, if someone's doing it official, I'd love to playtest, or at least see what they're thinking and doing.
Here. You'll have to generate a log-in to download the Alpha 2, though... (it's not in Beta yet)
In regards to XP costs for some powers, how will they be handled now that PF has dropped XP as a expendable resource? Perhaps use expensive gem stones as a "focus", brning away their value as the power is channeled through it?
The question above was inquired back in mid-August and I dutifuly combed to the thread, but it appears there wasn't a response to it. I had asked a similar question in another forum thread yesterday and figured I'd ask here as well.
An example psionic power that requires XP costs is Incarnate. Since materials are not used to cover the XP cost like they do with spells in Pathfinder, what's the alternative solution?
Thanks!
Howdy, folks.
The alpha release of the psion uncarnate is now available here.
The Thrallherd and the War Mind should be available shortly (very shortly - like, likely later today).
An example psionic power that requires XP costs is Incarnate. Since materials are not used to cover the XP cost like they do with spells in Pathfinder, what's the alternative solution?
We're actually still figuring that out, Urizen, but are open to suggestions!
An example psionic power that requires XP costs is Incarnate. Since materials are not used to cover the XP cost like they do with spells in Pathfinder, what's the alternative solution?We're actually still figuring that out, Urizen, but are open to suggestions!
Ahhh....
Not to discredit other's preferences, but I admit upfront that I don't fancy 'psicrystals' or their equivalents when it comes to the route of satisfying XP costs. I understand the need for foci or some sort of artifact that can boost one's psionic powers, but that in itself should be something infrequent rather than the common boon. It's just a bit too 'new-agey' for my tastes.
So far, I'm with the opinion that if there are powers that originally require an XP cost due to its magnitude, it should involve some sort of ability and/or hit point drain as if you were using your body for fuel. That being said, some people would bypass this with a spell or other power to recoup the loss. In that case, this is where the thought of negative XP levels should be considered.
And the war mind Alpha release is now available!
If I was considering a solution for paying with XP it would be some form of sequestering.
For example, if you manifest Incarnate, you loose access to XX power points, which return at the speed of 1 per day or week (if you want to make it rarer to use these kinds of powers). Essentially you power the power over a longer time, draining so much of you that it only returns slowly.
EDIT: BTW, sorry for not being around the forums as much as I used to. I got a new job, was let go (the company restructered right after I was hired) and I just found a new job. LOADS of stuff happening on the sides of publishing.
But as Jeremy points out, three new PrCs are up and I'm expecting the Psychic Warrior to be out tonight! :D Well, to send it to Jeremy for editing and release tonight...
If I was considering a solution for paying with XP it would be some form of sequestering.
For example, if you manifest Incarnate, you loose access to XX power points, which return at the speed of 1 per day or week (if you want to make it rarer to use these kinds of powers). Essentially you power the power over a longer time, draining so much of you that it only returns slowly.
Interesting alternative; I haven't thought of that. I'm going to have to mull it over. Out of curiosity, given XX, do you have a set ratio in mind on number of power points lost versus the level of the manifested power?
Interesting alternative; I haven't thought of that. I'm going to have to mull it over. Out of curiosity, given XX, do you have a set ratio in mind on number of power points lost versus the level of the manifested power?If I was considering a solution for paying with XP it would be some form of sequestering.
For example, if you manifest Incarnate, you loose access to XX power points, which return at the speed of 1 per day or week (if you want to make it rarer to use these kinds of powers). Essentially you power the power over a longer time, draining so much of you that it only returns slowly.
You could just sequester that individual power..bad use of wording, but lets say you manifest incarnate, once you use that power, you can't use it again unless you release the power from the previously manifested target. IE instead of XP, the power is no longer useable unless you release the previous manifestation from the earlier target. So basically you could only have one Incarnate in use ever. It makes the manifester think twice....do I really want to release my power from that other guy to fight this one?
You could just sequester that individual power..bad use of wording, but lets say you manifest incarnate, once you use that power, you can't use it again unless you release the power from the previously manifested target. IE instead of XP, the power is no longer useable unless you release the previous manifestation from the earlier target. So basically you could only have one Incarnate in use ever. It makes the manifester think twice....do I really want to release my power from that other guy to fight this one?Interesting alternative; I haven't thought of that. I'm going to have to mull it over. Out of curiosity, given XX, do you have a set ratio in mind on number of power points lost versus the level of the manifested power?If I was considering a solution for paying with XP it would be some form of sequestering.
For example, if you manifest Incarnate, you loose access to XX power points, which return at the speed of 1 per day or week (if you want to make it rarer to use these kinds of powers). Essentially you power the power over a longer time, draining so much of you that it only returns slowly.
In addition, if you have powers that were XP based, and permanent, you could have a feat that will allow them to manifest those spells to more then one target at a time, IE I take the "Power Reserve" feat which allows me to cast an XP based spell on more then one target (which is normal for a Psion without the feat). With the feat you could make it a number of times equal to your INT bonus or class level. That would need to be tested, but it could be a good alternative for those pesky permanent powers that Psions have. It means you could only Mind Switch with 4 people, and not whenever you wanted. Just a thought.
The alpha release for the thrallherd prestige class is now available for review!
You could just sequester that individual power..bad use of wording, but lets say you manifest incarnate, once you use that power, you can't use it again unless you release the power from the previously manifested target. IE instead of XP, the power is no longer useable unless you release the previous manifestation from the earlier target. So basically you could only have one Incarnate in use ever. It makes the manifester think twice....do I really want to release my power from that other guy to fight this one?
In addition, if you have powers that were XP based, and permanent, you could have a feat that will allow them to manifest those spells to more then one target at a time, IE I take the "Power Reserve" feat which allows me to cast an XP based spell on more then one target (which is normal for a Psion without the feat). With the feat you could make it a number of times equal to your INT bonus or class level. That would need to be tested, but it could be a good alternative for those pesky permanent powers that Psions have. It means you could only Mind Switch with 4 people, and not whenever you wanted. Just a thought.
As we're aware, Incarnate is simply the Psionic version of Permanency. So, if I wanted to imbue myself with a specific power permanent, there would be a mechanics/design conflict as the permanent power doesn't necessarily go away when the manifestation is released. But on the other hand, if you had manifested psionic contingency, then yes you'd probably think twice about using another manifestation that requires 'XP' if your contingency is released.
I think Stormhierta is going in the right direction with regard to a temporary power point loss that has to slowly be regained. Perhaps that is a long term issue while the shorter term issue is that there is some sort of temporary penalty involved with regard to fatigue / exhaustion -- especially in situations when certain abilities are manifested in the heat of combat.
I appreciate the dialogue. I know we're all trying to find a happy medium with this.
I am still feeling confident a temporal loss of power, most probably equal to your manifester level or atleast equal to the power points you spend to manifest the power. These would then return as if they were ability burn, ie one per day. Any existing ability burn would also take precedence and prevent you from regaining power points.
I am still feeling confident a temporal loss of power, most probably equal to your manifester level or atleast equal to the power points you spend to manifest the power. These would then return as if they were ability burn, ie one per day. Any existing ability burn would also take precedence and prevent you from regaining power points.
Depending on the power that previously required XP expenditure, should its point value be reconsidered by raising some of them so that it'll be 'felt' with regard to regaining them back? If that makes any sense...
I still think that at least in a situation where it you can't take 10 or 20 (like in combat) and the manifesting is a round or so for some of these powers that required XP, doing so would be so taxing on one's constitution that you would fall under the fatigue / exhaustion rules. The person who's playing the class will get a good realization about the gravity of such usage / expenditures.
In a calm / non-combat setting, it would be irrelevant.
Thoughts?
Any idea when the beta will be out. I am very curious on how the psychic warrior turned out. In my opinion the best of all the fighter-mage hybrids.
Doug
Dreamscarred are working on the Betas as we speak, so soon. The psychic warrior looks to be quite interesting ...
Dreamscarred are working on the Betas as we speak, so soon. The psychic warrior looks to be quite interesting ...
The psychic warrior beta will be posted either today or tomorrow. It's in the final stages.