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Getting angry only demonstrates an inability to think rationally.Or demonstrating your lack of literary diversity.
Willful ignorance on your part does not make your statement correct. It just demonstrates a lack of understanding and an unwillingness to gain that understanding.
All of the current CW shows have their heroes surrounded by sidekicks that both lack superpowers and are essential to the main hero's success. E.g. Felicity Smoak.
Insulting me will only raise my ire.
Less trolling please internet tough guy.
The moments when the everyman succeeds are all the more memorable because the everyman didn't have superpowers to make it happen.
Anyway, as always, fun is subjective, and making sweeping statements like "you must be at least *this* optimized to play" is not healthy.
I came back to this to address because I actually strongly disagree with both of the statements you've made here and I think I've finally found a way to express it adeptly.
I don't care for the Everyman's success because it has nothing to do with the Everyman. That's the entire point of them. It's not that they did anything special, or did anything someone else couldn't have. It's that the simply happened to be in the right place at the right time. I don't care for that Dues Ex Machina. I don't remember it as "Hey remember that time the Joe Everyman saved Captain Amazing?" I remember it as "Remember that time the Captain Amazing almost died by someone removed the McGuffin allowing him to regain his strength and then he saved the day." To me those characters are and always have been background. Perhaps I'm in the minority here, at least on the board.
As for being optimized, no one is saying you have to be at least *this* optimized to play. What I've been trying to say is that this is a collaborative game that requires a certain party dynamic to be functional and succeed at the game and both players and the GM have certain expectations. If you're going to play something that doesn't fit into those expectations, it causes problems (whether over or under powered). Playing an 11 int wizard would be a problem in an average gaming group one you get to around 5th level (I expect). The spells you have available just wont maintain enough meaningful effect, that the party will have to carry you. And that can be okay if the GM sets the challenges for basically a 3 person party instead of 4, but it's something that everyone needs to be aware of, and not something you should just take upon yourself to do.
To me, playing an under powered character (relative to the rest of the group) is as much a problem as an overpowered character (relative to the group). It's as much a problem as bring in a necromancer into a group of good aligned adventurers, or bringing in a paladin a group of evil aligned ones.
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I think some people are straying a bit from the point.
There are ways for wizard character to be effective* with a starting Int of 11. Mostly involving multiclassing and prestige classes, which tend to delay the gain of higher level spell slots (and/or prevent the character from gaining 9th- and possibly 8th-level spells) until after the character can improve their Int score as well as improving different aspects from spellcasting. The same can be said** for a "weak, sickly barbarian" (urban barbarian archer using Controlled Rage to boost Dex), an "uncharismatic sorcerer" (wildblooded sorcerer with either the Arcane/Sage or Celestial/Empyreal bloodline to use Int or Wis as their casting stat), or a "fighter with no physical stats" (possibly an elf lore warden fighter specializing in the Elven Battle Training feat chain; maybe a dragonheir scion focusing on Intimidate and Dazzling Display/Disheartening Display/Gory Finish/Motivating Display/Shatter Defenses, possibly dipping into rogue for some Sneak Attack and to qualify for Violent Display).
Of course, there should be some communication with the rest of the group so that the party knows that the character may not be filling the expected role for that class. Similar to when a player generates a cleric (commonly expected to be a healer) that channels negative energy (possibly with variant channeling as well) and focuses on self-buffing to act as a melee combatant.
Then there are the actual "gimped" characters that are not really effective at filling any role (possibly deliberately so). These, I'd lump in with the whole "disruptive character" category (such as the rogue that steals from the party, the "reluctant adventurer" that the other PCs need to convince in-character to help them before each session, etc.).
Playing a class in a non-standard way does not necessarily fall in the "disruptive character" category.
*- in a different way than a "typical" straight class wizard
**- again, in a different way than a "typical" straight class version
On to the questions. How would you play and build an 11 Int Wizard? How does this Wizard contribute in combat at level 1? Would that change at, say, level 10? Finally, would you bring this concept to a table of 4 PCs where there is an expectation you will be the primary arcane caster, or would you use it in a larger group where you aren't necessarily counted on to be the primary arcane caster?
If I were going to play a wizard with a low starting INT, it would be because I am investing in other stats for melee combat.
Tiefling: Oni-Spawn(the motherless)
It would most likely be a STR 17(18) DEX 14 CON 14 INT 11 WIS 14 CHA 8
AC 16 T 12 F 14
F +2 R +2 W +4
Transmutation: +1 STR, Opposition: Enchantment/Evocation
Feats: Arcane Strike, Scribe Scroll
Spells: Mage Armor, Enlarge Person
Melee Quarterstaff +4 (1d6+7/20/x2)
3: Create Wondrous Item
4: Fighter 1, +1 STR, Weapon Focus: , craft headband of vast intellect +2
5: Eldritch Knight, Iron Will, Power Attack
6: Eldritch Knight
7: Eldritch Knight, Endurance
8 - 17: Living Monolith (Ib Stone)
18 - 20 Wizard (Multimorph discovery)
Focus on polymorph school spells and feats to increase in effectiveness in melee. Your eventual goal is Form of the Dragon / Shapechange. Alternately, you can focus on a melee weapon and use Monstrous Humanoid/Giant forms to pick up increased STR + Regeneration (combine with Energy Resistance & Living Monolith to become nearly unkillable.)
On to the questions. How would you play and build an 11 Int Wizard? How does this Wizard contribute in combat at level 1? Would that change at, say, level 10? Finally, would you bring this concept to a table of 4 PCs where there is an expectation you will be the primary arcane caster, or would you use it in a larger group where you aren't necessarily counted on to be the primary arcane caster?
One option:
Half-orc (+2 bonus in Str; probably with the Toothy alternate racial trait) wizard (probably Transmutation/Shapechange school) 1; 17 Str (18 with the +1 from Physical Enhancement), 14 Dex, 14 Con, 11 Int, 10 Wis, 12 Cha (20 point buy); trait Magical Knack (Wizard); feat Ironhide; spellbook enlarge person, mage armor, magic missile; Arcane Bond (amulet or ring); gear haramaki, light crossbow, 10 bolts, greataxe, dagger, spell component pouch, 4 gp. Can use the crossbow for ranged attacks, acid splash or ray of frost at short range or to bypass DR/target weaknesses, act as a decent melee combatant with mage armor up (+4 attack bonus, 1d12+6 damage, AC 17), and cast one spell through the bonded object. At 2nd level, multiclass into skald (spell warrior) to pick up the Enhance Weapons (+1) weapon song and the ability to cast spells without preparation. At 3rd level, switch to barbarian to become a better melee combatant with Rage and take the Arcane Armor Training feat (with Magical Knack, your wizard CL is 3). At 4th, take a second level in barbarian and select Moment of Clarity as your rage power; increase Int to 12. At 5th level, take a second level in wizard. At 6th-9th level, take a levels in dragon disciple (qualify with skald level) and increase wizard spellcasting (gaining 2nd-level spells at 7th character level and 3rd-level spells at 9th character level); raise Int to 13 at 8th character level. By this point, you should have a headband of vast Intelligence +2 and not need to worry much about having sufficient Int to learn/cast wizard spells (with an additional Int increase at 12th and improvements to the headband). From 10th-19th character level, switch to eldritch knight and keep taking levels in that prestige class; at wizard 2/skald 1/barbarian 2/dragon disciple 4/eldritch knight 5, on gaining 5th-level spells, retrain Arcane Armor Training to Quicken Spell.
If the expectation is that the character will be the primary arcane caster, that's somewhat doable as long as the rest of the group isn't expecting the character to use only arcane magic to accomplish things. With a selection of scrolls and wands for contingencies, the character can provide a lot of the utility; they will not be able to do as well as a straight class, high Int wizard in the "save or suck/save or die" role, however.
On to the questions. How would you play and build an 11 Int Wizard? How does this Wizard contribute in combat at level 1? Would that change at, say, level 10? Finally, would you bring this concept to a table of 4 PCs where there is an expectation you will be the primary arcane caster, or would you use it in a larger group where you aren't necessarily counted on to be the primary arcane caster?If I were going to play a wizard with a low starting INT, it would be because I am investing in other stats for melee combat.
Tiefling: Oni-Spawn(the motherless)
It would most likely be a STR 17(18) DEX 14 CON 14 INT 11 WIS 14 CHA 8
AC 16 T 12 F 14
F +2 R +2 W +4Transmutation: +1 STR, Opposition: Enchantment/Evocation
Feats: Arcane Strike, Scribe Scroll
Spells: Mage Armor, Enlarge Person
Melee Quarterstaff +4 (1d6+7/20/x2)
3: Create Wondrous Item
4: Fighter 1, +1 STR, Weapon Focus: , craft headband of vast intellect +2
5: Eldritch Knight, Iron Will, Power Attack
6: Eldritch Knight
7: Eldritch Knight, Endurance
8 - 17: Living Monolith (Ib Stone)
18 - 20 Wizard (Multimorph discovery)Focus on polymorph school spells and feats to increase in effectiveness in melee. Your eventual goal is Form of the Dragon / Shapechange. Alternately, you can focus on a melee weapon and use Monstrous Humanoid/Giant forms to pick up increased STR + Regeneration (combine with Energy Resistance & Living Monolith to become nearly unkillable.)
cool! but wouldn't you be better off swapping your wis and int? Then you could get a +str, dex or con item instead.
Edit: Or if the wis is 14 for the saves, you could spend the same money on a cloak of resistance +2 and not only will you achieve the same will save, but your fort and rfx saves will also be higher.
cool! but wouldn't you be better off swapping your wis and int? Then you could get a +str, dex or con item instead.
Edit: Or if the wis is 14 for the saves, you could spend the same money on a cloak of resistance +2 and not only will you achieve the same will save, but your fort and rfx saves will also be higher.
The Int started at 11 because that was the stated value earlier in the thread.
Personally, even my fighters start with a 14 INT.
WIS is actually 12 +2 racial.
Volkard: Would it be easier and allow you to accomplish the same thing by playing a draconic bloodline sorcerer going into Dragon Disciple, admittedly by choosing a different race than Oni-spawn Tiefling?
Most likely, though you won't get 9th level spells if you go full in on Dragon Disciple.
Mathmuse, I’m very intrigued. Could you post a link to your wife’s sorcerer? I’m specifically interested in what her spell list looks like. I tried to find it on Neal’s page but the internet and I don’t often see eye to eye. Thanks!
The moments when the everyman succeeds are all the more memorable because the everyman didn't have superpowers to make it happen.
Anyway, as always, fun is subjective, and making sweeping statements like "you must be at least *this* optimized to play" is not healthy.
From my point of view, the lackluster Everyman in the party finally succeeding is unimpressive because the party is a team. He did not succeed alone. Instead, the party succeeded again, one success out of many, and he contributed more than usual that particular time.
I like roleplaying ordinary people who rise to the challenge under extraordinary circumstances. But I use tricks, such as Neal Litherland's cross-class suggestion, to disguise a well-built character as an ordinary person. For example, some classes, such as bard, are useful as a jack of all trades and master of none. Being the second best at everything makes a character look weak by comparison, but he still contributes.
My Iron Gods campaign has a lot of ordinary-looking characters. The plot hook for the first module, Fires of Creation, is that the human wizard Khonnir Baine never returned from a mission to a known deathtrap and the town wants the party to find him. Three party members took the Local Ties trait that made them residents of the town. The full roster was:
1) Boffin, a young dwarven smith who worked for Khonnir for the last 12 years.
2) Kheld, a human caravan guard sent by the rich man who owned the gambling hall and the caravan.
3) Val Baine, Khonnir's daughter who studied under her father and learned two cantrips so far.
4) Elric Jones, a half-elf drifter who Khonnir sometimes hired to run out-of-town errands.
5) Kirii, a strix skald on her coming-of-age journey.
The first four party members easily fit in as townsfolk. Under the hood, they had PC classes and the stats to back them up.
1) The dwarven smith was a gunslinger, Experimental Gunsmith archetype. She loved gadgets and had built her blunderbuss herself with her Craft skills. The character was primed to master the alien technology available in Iron Gods and gadgeteer her way to power.
2) Lots of fighter PCs start as caravan guards and Kheld was no exception.
3) Val could cast only two cantrips because she was a bloodrager with a homebrew archetype that gave her cantrips. Her magic was not strong enough to help, so she fought with an ax instead, quite well. She was my example of a Int 12 wizard, because at first she thought she was a wizard with blacksmithing muscles and a little combat training.
4) Drifter is just another name for 1st-level adventurer. No-one was surprised that a drifter could wield a sword or that a half-elf could cast a little magic, but Elric optimized both as a magus.
5) Kirii was a foreigner of an exotic species, so she looked like a PC from the start. Yet she used her Charisma skills to blend in as a minstrel and never put on airs.
Thus. my players had the best of both worlds. They could play Everyman characters who had a good chance of success.
Mathmuse, I’m very intrigued. Could you post a link to your wife’s sorcerer? I’m specifically interested in what her spell list looks like. I tried to find it on Neal’s page but the internet and I don’t often see eye to eye. Thanks!
My wife still creates her characters on paper character sheets. I will have to find the sheet in our archived gaming materials and type it in. That will take a day, so please be patient.
Oni-spawn tiefling transmuter 1 (Pathfinder Player Companion: Blood of Fiends 22, Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 264, Ultimate Wilderness 211)
N Medium outsider (native)
Init +2; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +4
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 14, touch 12, flat-footed 12 (+1 armor, +2 Dex, +1 natural)
hp 9 (1d6+3)
Fort +2, Ref +2, Will +4
Resist cold 5, electricity 5, fire 5
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee quarterstaff +4 (1d6+7)
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 1st; concentration +0)
. . 1/day—alter self
Arcane School Spell-Like Abilities (CL 1st; concentration +1)
. . 3/day—telekinetic fist (1d4 bludgeoning)
Transmuter Spells Prepared (CL 1st; concentration +1)
. . 1st—enlarge person (DC 11), mage armor
. . 0 (at will)—acid splash, detect magic, mage hand
. . Opposition Schools Enchantment, Evocation
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 18, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 11, Wis 14, Cha 8
Base Atk +0; CMB +4; CMD 16
Feats Alertness, Arcane Strike, Scribe Scroll
Skills Disguise +1, Intimidate +1, Knowledge (arcana) +4, Perception +4, Sense Motive +4, Spellcraft +4; Racial Modifiers +2 Disguise, +2 Intimidate
Languages Abyssal, Common
SQ arcane bond (Arcane Familiar, ioun wyrd), manifest dreams, physical enhancement (+1), recurring dream
Other Gear silken ceremonial armor[UC], quarterstaff, backpack, bedroll, belt pouch, flint and steel, ink, inkpen, mess kit[UE], pot, soap, spell component pouch, trail rations (5), waterskin, wizard starting spellbook, 99 gp, 1 sp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Arcane Strike As a swift action, add +1 damage, +1 per 5 caster levels and your weapons are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white only).
Empathic Link with Familiar (Su) You have an empathic link with your Arcane Familiar.
Enchantment You must spend 2 slots to cast spells from the Enchantment school.
Energy Resistance, Cold (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Cold attacks.
Energy Resistance, Electricity (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Electricity attacks.
Energy Resistance, Fire (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Fire attacks.
Evocation You must spend 2 slots to cast spells from the Evocation school.
Familiar Bonus: +1 natural armor bonus to AC You gain the Alertness feat while your familiar is within arm's reach.
Manifest Dreams (Su) You can reshape your familiar every morning.
Physical Enhancement +1 (Strength) (Su) When preparing spells, chosen physical attribute gains enhancement bonus.
Recurring Dream (Su) Your familiar is a projection of your own mind.
Share Spells with Familiar Can cast spells with a target of "You" on the familiar with a range of touch.
Telekinetic Fist (1d4 bludgeoning, 3/day) (Sp) As a standard action, ranged touch deals bludgeon dam vs. foe in 30 ft.
Transmutation Transmuters use magic to change the world around them.
Male oni-spawn tiefling transmuter 5 (Pathfinder Player Companion: Blood of Fiends 22, Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 264, Ultimate Wilderness 211)
N Medium outsider (native)
Init +4; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +9
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Defense
--------------------
AC 21, touch 13, flat-footed 19 (+4 armor, +1 deflection, +2 Dex, +4 natural)
hp 42 (5d6+20)
Fort +4, Ref +3, Will +8
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 40 ft., fly 30 ft. (average)
Melee quarterstaff +8 (1d6+11) or
. . bite +8 (1d4+8), 4 claws +8 (1d6+8), gore +8 (1d4+8)
Arcane School Spell-Like Abilities (CL 5th; concentration +8)
. . 4/day—telekinetic fist (1d4+2 bludgeoning)
Transmuter Spells Prepared (CL 5th; concentration +8)
. . 3rd—haste, monstrous physique I[UM]
. . 2nd—alter self, false life, mirror image
. . 1st—chill touch (2, DC 12), enlarge person (DC 12), mage armor, shield
. . 0 (at will)—acid splash, detect magic, mage hand, message
. . Opposition Schools Enchantment, Evocation
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 22, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 8
Base Atk +2; CMB +8; CMD 21
Feats Alertness, Arcane Strike, Craft Wondrous Item, Iron Will, Multimorph[UM], Scribe Scroll
Traits focused mind, reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +2 (+6 to jump), Fly +7, Knowledge (arcana) +5, Knowledge (planes) +5, Perception +9, Sense Motive +4, Spellcraft +9, Swim +7
Languages Abyssal, Common, Undercommon
SQ arcane bond (Arcane Familiar, ioun wyrd), manifest dreams, physical enhancement (+2), recurring dream
Combat Gear lesser extend metamagic rod; Other Gear silken ceremonial armor[UC], quarterstaff, amulet of natural armor +1, belt of giant strength +2, headband of vast intelligence +2, ring of protection +1, backpack, bedroll, belt pouch, flint and steel, ink, inkpen, mess kit[UE], pot, soap, spell component pouch, trail rations (5), waterskin, wizard starting spellbook, 449 gp, 1 sp
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Special Abilities
--------------------
Arcane Strike As a swift action, add +1 damage, +1 per 5 caster levels and your weapons are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white only).
Empathic Link with Familiar (Su) You have an empathic link with your Arcane Familiar.
Enchantment You must spend 2 slots to cast spells from the Enchantment school.
Evocation You must spend 2 slots to cast spells from the Evocation school.
Familiar Bonus: +1 natural armor bonus to AC You gain the Alertness feat while your familiar is within arm's reach.
Fly (30 feet, Average) You can fly!
Manifest Dreams (Su) You can reshape your familiar every morning.
Multimorph Your studies in transmogrification have increased your control over shapechanging spells. When you cast a spell of the polymorph subschool on yourself, you may expend 1 minute of the spell's duration as a standard action to assume another form allowe
Physical Enhancement +2 (Constitution) (Su) When preparing spells, chosen physical attribute gains enhancement bonus.
Recurring Dream (Su) Your familiar is a projection of your own mind.
Share Spells with Familiar Can cast spells with a target of "You" on the familiar with a range of touch.
Speak with Familiar (Ex) You can communicate verbally with your familiar.
Telekinetic Fist (1d4+2 bludgeoning, 4/day) (Sp) As a standard action, ranged touch deals bludgeon dam vs. foe in 30 ft.
Transmutation Transmuters use magic to change the world around them.
I managed to crash Herolab leveling up to 10th and it's late; no full progression tonight :(
I think there's two colliding discussions here:
(1) Is it possible to make a useful Int 11 Wizard? (Probably; if you increase your Int as you level up you can still cast things like Invisibility, Fly, Haste, Dimension Door, etc.)
(2) Is it unfair on the other players to make, say, an Int 7 Wizard? Something intentionally bad? How suboptimal can something be before it becomes unacceptable? (Depends a lot on your GM; if they're balancing the adventure to match the party, it shouldn't be a big problem.)
Dragonchess: What makes Skald (Spell Warrior) a better choice than Bard (Arcane Duelist), or is there no difference?
"Enhance Weapons (Su): At 1st level, the spell warrior can grant a +1 enhancement bonus to the weapons (including ammunition) of allies within 60 feet... These bonuses can also be used to add any of the following weapon special abilities to the weapons enhanced by this ability: dancing, defending, distance, flaming, frost, ghost touch, keen, mighty cleaving, returning, shock, seeking, or speed. Adding these weapon special abilities consumes an amount of bonus equal to the special ability’s cost (see Table 15–9: Melee Weapon Special Abilities on page 469 of the Core Rulebook). These enhancement bonuses and special abilities overlap with any enhancements or special abilities the weapon already has, though duplicate special abilities do not stack. If an affected weapon is not magical, at least a +1 enhancement bonus must be added before any other special abilities can be." A spell warrior skald gets this at 1st level, rather than 6th level for an arcane duelist bard with bladethirst; bladethirst also only affects one weapon within 30 ft.
Mathmuse, I’m very intrigued. Could you post a link to your wife’s sorcerer? I’m specifically interested in what her spell list looks like. I tried to find it on Neal’s page but the internet and I don’t often see eye to eye. Thanks!My wife still creates her characters on paper character sheets. I will have to find the sheet in our archived gaming materials and type it in. That will take a day, so please be patient.
I was only hoping for a link to the material you already added to Neal's page. Really, anything that you provide will be greatly appreciated and of course I am happy to wait for it. Take your time. Thanks again!
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I was only hoping for a link to the material you already added to Neal's page. Really, anything that you provide will be greatly appreciated and of course I am happy to wait for it. Take your time. Thanks again!Mathmuse, I’m very intrigued. Could you post a link to your wife’s sorcerer? I’m specifically interested in what her spell list looks like. I tried to find it on Neal’s page but the internet and I don’t often see eye to eye. Thanks!My wife still creates her characters on paper character sheets. I will have to find the sheet in our archived gaming materials and type it in. That will take a day, so please be patient.
I put a description of Val Baine, the bloodrager who thought she was a wizard, on Neal Litherland's page. If you want to see more about her, without the spoilers at Iron Gods among Scientists, I kept a report of the playtesting for her homebrew archetype at Savage Spellslinger.
As for Wealday Addams, here is her stat block. I was wrong about Arcane Armor Mastery; rather, she stopped at Arcane Armor Training.
Wealday Addams
Halfing Sorcerer 13
CN Small humanoid(halfling)
Init +10; Senses low-light vision; Perception +6
DEFENSE
AC 25, touch 18, flat-footed 19 (+7 armor, +5 dex, +1 size, +1 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 143 (13d6+52+fcb) additional hp from GM fiat since party lacked a cleric
Fort +9, Reflex +10, Will +12 (misc bonuses against a few effects)
OFFENSE
Speed 20 feet
Melee touch +7/+2 with 15-foot reach
rod of well-deserved rest (club) +8/+3 (1d4+1 bludgeoning)
Ranged touch +12/+7
Bloodline Spell-Like Abilities (CL 8th; concentration +19)
acid ray (sp)
Sorcerer Spells Known (CL 13th; concentration +)
6th (4/day) DC 20—acid fog, conjure black pudding
5th (5/day) DC 19—acidic spray(UM), break enchantment, feeblemind(bloodline), hungry pit(APG)
4th (7/day) DC 18—black tentacles(bloodline), calcific touch(APG) enervation, stoneskin, touch of slime(UM)
3rd (7/day) DC 17—ray of exhaustion, strangling hair(UM), tongues(bloodline), undead anatomy I(UM), vampiric touch
2nd (7/day) DC 16—acid arrow, blindness/deafness, defensive shock(UM), ghoul touch, spider climb, see invisibility(bloodline)
1st (7/day) DC 15—chill touch, corrosive touch(UM), enlarge person(bloodline), ray of enfeeblement, shield, shocking grasp
0th (at will) DC 14—acid splash, arcane mark, detect magic, ghost sound, light, message, prestidigitation, read magic, touch of fatigue
Bloodline abberant
TACTICS
For dungeon delving, Wealday usually casts Spider Climb so that she can walk on the walls and ceilings out of reach of traps and enemies. She can often attack from a wall with her 50-foot reach. Black Tentacles is her primary spell against crowds and creatures with spell resistance. If forced to fight on the floor, she casts Shield in the first round of combat: the +4 shield bonus from that spell is not included in her AC yet. With a Shield-boosted AC, she is willing to cast Chill Touch or Touch of Slime and rush into melee. She thought that Acid Fog would be cool, but it is not dismissible and she is too impatient to wait for it to end.
STATISTICS
Str 10, Dex 18, Con 18, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 19
Base Attack +6/+2; CMB +5; CMD +21
Feats Arcane Armor Training, Dodge, Eschew Materials, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Leadership, Light Armor Proficiency, Silent Spell, Spell Penetration, Still Spell,
Traits Magic is Life, Stowaway
Boons +2 concentration, +1 initiative, +1 will save vs compulsion, +1 to saves DC for language-dependent, charms, and skills
Skills Acrobatics +11, appraise +6, bluff +12, craft(fletcher) +6, disguise +6, heal +2, intimidate +22, knowledge(arcana) +8, knowledge(engineering) +8, knowledge(planes) +9, knowledge(religion) +6, linguistics +3, perception +6, spellcraft +16, stealth +16, survival +5, use magic device +18
Languages Common, Halfling, Aklo, Gnome, Infernal
SQ spirit tattoo (crocodile)
Abberant Bloodline Acidic Ray, +50% duration to polymorph, long limbs (15-foot reach for melee touch), unusual anatomy 50%.
Gear +3 mithral chain shirt, brooch of shielding, figurine of wondrous power (lion), gloves of arrow snaring, ring of seven virtues, rod of well-deserved rest, war mask of terror, handmade necklace of undead teeth.
DESCRIPTION
Doctor Addams (human) of Nidal kept a breeding stock of halfling slaves for experiments. He named the slaves after the day or month they were born. He experimented with the slave Wealday by injecting her with eldritch substances. The experiment was too successful, for it gave Wealday abilities that let her escape the laboratory. She stowed away on a ship to escape the city. That ship ended up shipwrecked at the beginning of the Serpent's Skull adventure path.
Due to her unusual upbringing, Wealday is crazy. She tends to eat whatever she finds, even if partially rotted. She has no social skills beyond her natural charisma. She liked lighting things on fire, until her teammates convinced her that fire was bad: this also explains her lack of fire spells.
Thanks a ton, Mathmuse. You deserve a cookie for doing so much for a perfect stranger *tips hat*
I'll be honest, players are welcome to play an 11 int wizard when I'm GMing - they won't last long because I won't softball for them. I just hope their decision doesn't lead to a TPK.What if he is a transmuter with a 21 STR and Arcane Strike at level 1 and planning for natural attacks?
And his no armorclass, weak saves, and low hp?
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I'm in a campaign with four others. 3 have been playing 3.5 and Pathfinder for years. I just hit the year and a half mark, but spend most of my free time theory crafting and learning rules, so I've been a quick study and my badly built character has become a deadly force.
Then we have our fifth player. He joined six months ago, knows just the basics, and doesn't really have any desire to dig in deeper. He made a majorly sub-optimized vanilla monk. Everybody was annoyed. The GM was making encounters harder, but the monk wasn't really contributing. There was one fight that resulted in a PC death where the monk went to read something on the wall mid-fight.
But then this bumbling player started to get the feel of the character, and I don't mechanically. Through RP and out of the box thinking he has saved the whole party multiple times. We may still get annoyed that he can't do more than 1 damage with a shuriken on the rare chances he could actually hit something since he doesn't like to get in melee, but he's become that sidekick that actually finds a way to help.
To connect to some of the other posts, he's Jimmy Olsen...actually Snarf fits better - even down to the annoying attempts at comedy, but when all of your "superheroes" are engaged in the battle, you still need that guy who can run over and stop the self destruct sequence.
And his no armorclass, weak saves, and low hp?I'll be honest, players are welcome to play an 11 int wizard when I'm GMing - they won't last long because I won't softball for them. I just hope their decision doesn't lead to a TPK.What if he is a transmuter with a 21 STR and Arcane Strike at level 1 and planning for natural attacks?
1st and 5th level builds are posted above.
Higher physical stats leads to better saves and higher HP. 16 CON + False Life puts his HP on a par with any other class. INT never contributed to HP or saves; minimizing INT leads to better stats elsewhere that do contribute.
At level 5 he is 21 AC without Shield, 26 AC with Shield. Level +15 is usually considered decent AC. Level +20 is usually considered high AC.
Rebuilt Gunther with a few minor changes to 10th level.
Male oni-spawn tiefling living monolith 2/unchained monk 2/transmuter 6 (Pathfinder Player Companion: Blood of Fiends 22, Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 264, Pathfinder Unchained 14, Ultimate Wilderness 211)
LN Large outsider (native)
Init +4; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +21
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Defense
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AC 27, touch 15, flat-footed 25 (+5 armor, +1 deflection, +1 Dex, +1 dodge, +1 insight, +7 natural, -1 size, +2 Wis)
hp 123 (10 HD; 6d6+2d8+2d10+75)
Fort +15, Ref +13, Will +16; +2 vs. negative levels, death effects, and mind-affecting effects
Defensive Abilities evasion; DR 5/piercing
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Offense
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Speed 40 ft., fly 60 ft. (average)
Melee unarmed strike +18/+18/+13 (1d8+13) or
. . darkwood quarterstaff +16/+16/+11 (1d8+14) or
. . bite +18 (1d8+13), 4 claws +18 (1d6+13), gore +18 (1d4+13)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Special Attacks flurry of blows (unchained)
Arcane School Spell-Like Abilities (CL 7th; concentration +12)
. . 6/day—telekinetic fist (1d4+3 bludgeoning)
Transmuter Spells Prepared (CL 7th; concentration +12)
. . 4th—greater false life[UM], monstrous physique II[UM]
. . 3rd—heroism, monstrous physique I[UM], resinous skin[UC]
. . 2nd—false life, glitterdust (DC 15), mirror image, resist energy, visualization of the body
. . 1st—chill touch (2, DC 14), keep watch, long arm[ACG], shield
. . 0 (at will)—detect magic, mage hand, message, open/close (DC 13)
. . Opposition Schools Enchantment, Evocation
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Statistics
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Str 26, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 16, Wis 14, Cha 8
Base Atk +6; CMB +17 (+19 grapple); CMD 31 (35 vs. disarm)
Feats Alertness, Arcane Strike, Armor Of The Pit[ARG], Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Endurance, Improved Unarmed Strike, Iron Will, Multimorph[UM], Scribe Scroll, Stunning Fist, Toughness
Traits focused mind, reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +9 (+13 to jump), Appraise +5, Bluff +1, Climb +14, Diplomacy +11, Disguise +1, Escape Artist +3, Fly +9, Heal +4, Intimidate +1, Knowledge (engineering) +12, Knowledge (history) +12, Knowledge (local) +9, Knowledge (planes) +9, Knowledge (religion) +10, Linguistics +10, Perception +21, Ride +3, Sense Motive +6, Spellcraft +18, Stealth +1, Survival +4, Swim +14
Languages Abyssal, Ancient Osiriani, Aquan, Common, Draconic, First Speech, Sphinx
SQ arcane bond (Arcane Familiar, ioun wyrd), freeze, manifest dreams, physical enhancement (+2), recurring dream, stone blood
Combat Gear pearl of power (1st level) (2), pearl of power (2nd level), scroll of enlarge person (x8), scroll of long arm, minor image; Other Gear darkwood quarterstaff, amulet of mighty fists +3, belt of giant strength +4, bracers of armor +5, cloak of resistance +4, cracked dusty rose prism ioun stone, dusty rose prism ioun stone, headband of vast intelligence +4, ring of protection +1, wizard starting spellbook, 82 gp, 5 sp
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Special Abilities
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Arcane Strike As a swift action, add +1 damage, +1 per 5 caster levels and your weapons are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Combat Reflexes (2 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Damage Reduction (5/piercing) You have Damage Reduction against all except Piercing attacks.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white only).
Empathic Link with Familiar (Su) You have an empathic link with your Arcane Familiar.
Enchantment You must spend 2 slots to cast spells from the Enchantment school.
Endurance +4 to a variety of fort saves, skill and ability checks. Sleep in L/M armor with no fatigue.
Evasion (Ex) If succeed on Reflex save for half dam, take none instead.
Evocation You must spend 2 slots to cast spells from the Evocation school.
Familiar Bonus: +1 natural armor bonus to AC You gain the Alertness feat while your familiar is within arm's reach.
Flurry of Blows (Unchained) (Ex) As full-rd action, gain extra attacks with unarmed strike/monk weapons.
Fly (60 feet, Average) You can fly!
Freeze (Ex) A gargoyle can hold itself so still it appears to be a statue. A gargoyle that uses freeze can take 20 on its Stealth check to hide in plain sight as a stone statue.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Manifest Dreams (Su) You can reshape your familiar every morning.
Multimorph Your studies in transmogrification have increased your control over shapechanging spells. When you cast a spell of the polymorph subschool on yourself, you may expend 1 minute of the spell's duration as a standard action to assume another form allowe
Physical Enhancement +2 (Constitution) (Su) When preparing spells, chosen physical attribute gains enhancement bonus.
Recurring Dream (Su) Your familiar is a projection of your own mind.
Share Spells with Familiar Can cast spells with a target of "You" on the familiar with a range of touch.
Speak with Familiar (Ex) You can communicate verbally with your familiar.
Stone Blood (Ex) Automatically stabilize when dying.
Stunning Fist (4/day, DC 17) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Telekinetic Fist (1d4+3 bludgeoning, 6/day) (Sp) As a standard action, ranged touch deals bludgeon dam vs. foe in 30 ft.
Transmutation Transmuters use magic to change the world around them.
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Arcane Familiar CR –
Ioun wyrd (Ultimate Wilderness 197)
LN Tiny construct
Init +2; Senses blindsight 30 ft.; Perception +12
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Defense
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AC 20, touch 15, flat-footed 17 (+2 Dex, +1 dodge, +5 natural, +2 size)
hp 26 (1d10)
Fort +6, Ref +8, Will +8
Immune construct traits
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Offense
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Speed fly 30 ft. (average)
Melee slam +5 (1d4-3)
Space 2½ ft.; Reach 0 ft.
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Statistics
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Str 4, Dex 15, Con —, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 5
Base Atk +6; CMB +6; CMD 14
Feats Dodge
Skills Acrobatics +5, Climb +3, Diplomacy +7, Fly +14, Linguistics +1, Perception +12, Spellcraft +9, Swim +3
Languages speak with master
SQ empathic link, ioun affinity, manifest dreams, recurring dream, share iouns
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Special Abilities
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Blindsight (30 feet) (Ex) Sense things and creatures without seeing them.
Construct Traits (+0 HP) Constructs have many immunities.
Empathic Link (Su) You have an empathic link with your master.
Fly (30 feet, Average) You can fly!
Immunity to Ability Damage Immunity to ability damage
Immunity to Ability Drain Immunity to ability drain
Immunity to Bleed You are immune to bleed.
Immunity to Death and Necromancy effects You are immune to Death and Necromancy effects.
Immunity to Disease You are immune to diseases.
Immunity to Exhausted You are immune to the exhausted condition.
Immunity to Fatigue You are immune to the fatigued condition.
Immunity to Mind-Affecting effects You are immune to Mind-Affecting effects.
Immunity to Nonlethal Damage You are immune to Nonlethal Damage
Immunity to Paralysis You are immune to paralysis.
Immunity to Poison You are immune to poison.
Immunity to Sleep You are immune to sleep effects.
Immunity to Stunning You are immune to being stunned.
Ioun Affinity (1 stones) (Su) May integrate a number of stones into its body.
Manifest Dreams (Su) You can reshape your familiar every morning.
Recurring Dream (Su) Your familiar is a projection of your own mind.
Share Iouns (Su) Master shares benefits of ioun stones while within 30 feet.
Share Spells Spells with a target of "You" can be delivered by a familiar with a range of touch.
Speak with Master (Ex) You can communicate verbally with your master.
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Not half bad at melee, 104 HP + 19 Temp, and damned good saves for 10th level.
AC 31 with Shield up.
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There are lots of stupid wizards in Pathfinder - We call them sorcerers!
I wouldn't want to keep anyone from playing an Int 11 Wizard, but I think the idea uses classes as too static. I would try to ask the player to try realizing his concept in a different way. There is lots of classes with lots of different abillities to create your concept.
A "dumb wizard" could well be your average sorcerer, whose Familiar is smarter than him. He could also be a Bloodrager, if you want him to fight in melee or a Quinggong monk with Ki Powers. Your dumb blaster wizard could be a Kinetist. A Rogue with the Minor Magic Rogue Talent or the Eldritchg Scoundrel archetype could also make quite efficent "dumb wizards". A bard could do so as well as could an Order of the Tome Cavalier or a Lore Warden.
In the end it depends on the characters back story not on the class on the character sheet. A dude, who got thrown out of the wizards school for failing exams, or some bookworm, who tries being a wizard, but fails at casting can be a pretty made in many ways.
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If the group only sees you as competent because of your numbers, they may the ones having badwrongfun
The numbers quite literally describe how competent your character is. You can't say your character is a competent fighter if he has a poor attack bonus, or a competent performer if he has a poor Perform skill. The ruthlessly Darwinian life of an adventurer would quickly put a stop to people who are bad at fighting trying to fight: Either they get killed by someone who is better at fighting, or they decide the fighting life is not for them.
At a certain point I'm suspicious of people who want to play Int 11 Wizards for the roleplaying value. Why not go all the way and go Int 8 for even more adversity and therefore an even more compelling roleplay experience? After all, everyone knows that ROLEplaying and ROLLplaying are a zero-sum game and you can only gain more of the first by dumping the second. /s
orf a competent wizard if he's restricted in the spells he can cast... the PLAYER may be competent and give the character other strings to his bow, but there's no way the character is competent as a wizard.
orf a competent wizard if he's restricted in the spells he can cast... the PLAYER may be competent and give the character other strings to his bow, but there's no way the character is competent as a wizard.
This is entirely dependent on the wizard's focus. If he is build for melee and using melee focused spells, INT is, at best, a secondary STAT.
It's no different than playing a melee focused cleric or oracle.
like if he coàncentrates on shocking grasp or the like? doesn't a wizard remain a squishy and too soft for melee anyway?
Looking for thoughts and opinions from others. To be clear, I'm not talking about players who put their second-best stats into a class's necessities, or who use feats and class features to substitute abilities for their features. I'm talking about situations where a player is purposefully sabotaging their own character's effectiveness, and why anyone would impose that kind of a burden on the rest of their table.
This really is the inverse of the one-dimensional min-maxer whose only contribution to the game is in combat.
Both players have a clear picture in mind of their character, and as long as it does not impact the fun of the other characters I say fill thine boots.
Not all games (especially PBP) are fixated on combat, and while it looks like the character has an uphill climb ahead of them, the destination will be all the sweeter if they get there by their wits and solid play...otherwise, they will get ganked.
p.s. I made an extremely sub-optimal halfling barbarian once amongst a chorus of how foolish that decision was, considering the STR deficit and using smaller weaponry. Within 2 sessions the reality of the little hammer-wielding psychopath never missing started to dawn on the others. Soon enough the biggest worry was what would happen to them if he got charmed again.
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There are lots of stupid wizards in Pathfinder - We call them sorcerers!
I was about to comment this! A scroll-using Sorcerer that can't comprehend most of the magical theories, fail all his class, can't seems to learn many spell and resort the the few he know by heart can make for a great ''dump-wizard''. People are so stuck up with locking classes names into specific archetypes it's not even funny.
A shy 8 charisma Paladin could be build as a Lawful Good Two-handed fighting ranger workshing Iomedae. He could take his favored enemies for thing such as undead, evil outsider, etc. He won't have access to the paladin abilities, but he wouldn't really have access to any with 8 charisma anway. That will make for an atypical paladin, but a 8 charisma Paladin is an atypical concept in the first place. Beside a class is a bundle of abilities, if another bundle of abilities can match a character concept, there's no need to restrict yourself.
That being said, i can see the challenge behind the idea of playing a cripple character, as i already did a couple of time. Although people are right, crippled characters should be able to fill the role they took, otherwise they are being burdens and the party have no obligation to babysit them.
It's no different than playing a melee focused cleric or oracle.except with worse attack bonus, less hp, and a bad fort save
Did you even look at the posted builds?
like if he coàncentrates on shocking grasp or the like? doesn't a wizard remain a squishy and too soft for melee anyway?
Again!
Read the posted builds and comment on what can be done instead of posting in ignorance, because what you "know to be true" may not be accurate.
The moments when the everyman succeeds are all the more memorable because the everyman didn't have superpowers to make it happen.
Anyway, as always, fun is subjective, and making sweeping statements like "you must be at least *this* optimized to play" is not healthy.
I came back to this to address because I actually strongly disagree with both of the statements you've made here and I think I've finally found a way to express it adeptly.
I don't care for the Everyman's success because it has nothing to do with the Everyman. That's the entire point of them. It's not that they did anything special, or did anything someone else couldn't have. It's that the simply happened to be in the right place at the right time. I don't care for that Dues Ex Machina. I don't remember it as "Hey remember that time the Joe Everyman saved Captain Amazing?" I remember it as "Remember that time the Captain Amazing almost died by someone removed the McGuffin allowing him to regain his strength and then he saved the day." To me those characters are and always have been background. Perhaps I'm in the minority here, at least on the board.
It sounds like there's a large body of fiction that is simply not your bag, which is of course fine. I'm not likely to put a lot of stock into your opinion on this particular subject, though, same as I'd hope you wouldn't put much stock into my opinion on Warhammer 40K. Suffice it to say that there are enough players who enjoy playing (or playing in the same party as) characters that aren't typical for their class that assuming "must be balanced with rest of party!" is somehow the default stance from which any deviation means "oooh, you better have a long talk with your GM and party because that's not regular Pathfinder" screams badwrongfun. I don't ask permission to only put a 14 in my greatsword fighter's Strength score or not take Power Attack. Even the idea that I'd be expected to by default is anathema to me.
As for being optimized, no one is saying you have to be at least *this* optimized to play.
Nonsense. Lots of people are saying that. The rest of your post is essentially ". . . but, seriously, you really do have to be at least *this* optimized to play".
Nonsense. Lots of people are saying that. The rest of your post is essentially ". . . but, seriously, you really do have to be at least *this* optimized to play".
No, no it's not. The rest of my post is essentially you should be as optimized as the rest of your group, because being under optimized or over optimized causes problems. Most people easily accept that over optimized characters can be disruptive to a table. Why do you resist the opposite direction? It can be equally disruptive. Most people might not think about it, but it's equally true. I'm not saying you have to optimize to a certain amount, I'm saying you should optimize to fit with your group. With a caveat that if your group is cool with it you can be either more or less optimized.
"as optimized as the rest of your group" = "*this* optimized". Just because you don't define a universal bar right here doesn't mean you aren't setting some sort of arbitrary rule on players that the text simply doesn't support. You do not have to be as optimized as the rest of your group, full stop. That's a rule you, and those like you, made up. I'm under no obligation to vet my sheet with anybody but the GM.
You being unwilling to consider the rest of your party when building your character means I have no interest in sharing a table with you.
Right back atcha, bruh.
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"as optimized as the rest of your group" = "*this* optimized". Just because you don't define a universal bar right here doesn't mean you aren't setting some sort of arbitrary rule on players that the text simply doesn't support. You do not have to be as optimized as the rest of your group, full stop. That's a rule you, and those like you, made up. I'm under no obligation to vet my sheet with anybody but the GM.
I don’t get that anyone is saying it’s a rule. It’s a courtesy. Those are not the same at all.
"as optimized as the rest of your group" = "*this* optimized". Just because you don't define a universal bar right here doesn't mean you aren't setting some sort of arbitrary rule on players that the text simply doesn't support. You do not have to be as optimized as the rest of your group, full stop. That's a rule you, and those like you, made up. I'm under no obligation to vet my sheet with anybody but the GM.I don’t get that anyone is saying it’s a rule. It’s a courtesy. Those are not the same at all.
Exactly. It's not a "rule" so much as it is part of the "Gentleman's Agreement" between players, and most groups seem to have some version of this. At least with respect to being overly optimized compared to the rest of the group. It's a topic of many threads on this forum, GMs trying to deal with a player who has much more system mastery than the others in the group such that they can't sufficiently challenge them without overwhelming the others. The converse becomes true in the opposite way with an under powered character. Eventually the GM risks killing the character in every combat unless they hold back to the point that nothing is a threat to the others. Both are situation are bad.