WotC just posted a new (small) batch of errata, with excellent fixes to: Rain of Blows, Battlerager Vigor, Guileful Switch and Righteous Rage of Tempus. All of these were in need of either changes or clarifications, and all of them look fantastic now.
Wayfinder, PaizoCon Founder
|
Well, apparently I've been playing my battlerager all wrong.
I went online to check what this new change to battlerager vigor ACTUALLY means, and was surprised to find out that vigor's temp HP don't stack? Apparently, I'm always going to be limited to only 3 temp HP.
Now the errata further limited it to only getting those wonderous 3 HP when you "hit an enemy", no longer when you are hit.
How is that awesome?? When my DM is hitting me for 20+ points of damage, how does this piddly 3 HP make this build worth the trouble??
Yet another class is scaled back to the point that I have to ask why I'd even want to play it.
Well, apparently I've been playing my battlerager all wrong.
I went online to check what this new change to battlerager vigor ACTUALLY means, and was surprised to find out that vigor's temp HP don't stack? Apparently, I'm always going to be limited to only 3 temp HP.
Now the errata further limited it to only getting those wonderous 3 HP when you "hit an enemy", no longer when you are hit.
How is that awesome?? When my DM is hitting me for 20+ points of damage, how does this piddly 3 HP make this build worth the trouble??
Yet another class is scaled back to the point that I have to ask why I'd even want to play it.
Er...I'm not sure you understand how Battlerager Vigor works.
When you hit with a melee or close power, you gain temporary hit points equal to your Constitution bonus (it sounds like this is 3 for you). When you hit with a power with the invigorating keyword, you gain temporary hit points equal to your Constitution bonus (again, 3). When you hit with a melee or close power that has the invigorating keyword, you gain temporary hit points equal to your Constitution bonus twice, and they stack. So most of the time you should be getting 6 temporary hit points per attack, which goes a long way towards mitigating the damage you think you'll be taking. Feats can improve this further.
|
Wayfinder, PaizoCon Founder
|
I don't really have an issue with the recent change....but this issue with the temp hp, I just don't understand.
"Whenever you hit an enemy with a melee or a close attack, you gain temporary hit points equal to your Constitution modifier, plus any temporary hit points normally granted by the power."
By this, I read that every time I hit an enemy, I get to add temp hp to my hit point pool, plus whatever I get through the power. (So in the case of my character with a Con of 16...at least +3 hp with every hit)
Others' opinions on this are saying that, as temporary hit points, I cannot accumulate more (i.e., stack them) than the number equal to my Con modifier.
What is correct?
|
Wayfinder, PaizoCon Founder
|
Er...I'm not sure you understand how Battlerager Vigor works.When you hit with a melee or close power, you gain temporary hit points equal to your Constitution bonus (it sounds like this is 3 for you). When you hit with a power with the invigorating keyword, you gain temporary hit points equal to your Constitution bonus (again, 3). When you hit with a melee or close power that has the invigorating keyword, you gain temporary hit points equal to your Constitution bonus twice, and they stack. So most of the time you should be getting 6 temporary hit points per attack, which goes a long way towards mitigating the damage you think you'll be taking. Feats can improve this further.
Thanks Scott, that is how I had thought that it would work. My real problem, I suppose, was going to the ENWorld threads and reading those answers there...my brain hurts now.
So here's the final question: If I am not hit that next round, but I hit again, do I accumulate a total of 12 temp hp, or do I just gain 3 more from the invigorating power, or am I held at a max of 6 temp hp?
So here is Battlerage Vigor. I admit, I am a bit confused as well about the wording:
Whenever you hit an enemy with a melee or a close
attack, you gain temporary hit points equal to your
Constitution modifier, plus any temporary hit points
normally granted by the power.
So this means, I get (at least) my Con modifier in Temporary HP for all of my melee/close attacks, but these follow the standard rules re: Temp HP (i.e. no stacking, they only replace any current Temp HP if the new value is higher). If the power grants Temp HP (via the Invigoration keyword, or any other source), these would stack at the time the Temp HP are given.
If you use an invigorating fighter attack power
and miss every target with it, you gain temporary hit
points equal to your Constitution modifier.
So I am assuming that if you hit with the power, that case is covered in the example above? This part allows you to at least gain your Con modifier, even if you miss?
When wearing light armor or chainmail, you gain
a +1 bonus to damage rolls with melee and close
weapon attacks whenever you have temporary hit
points. This bonus increases to +2 if you’re wielding
an axe, a hammer, a mace, or a pick.
No change here.
So, I guess the biggest 'negative' change (the quotes are there because I am sure there will be a debate on whether it is a negative change or not) is that the Temp HP granted by the Invigorating Keyword do not stack, except for with the Temp HP granted in the current round. Do I have that right?
So, Round 1 the fighter (with a Con modifier of +3) hits with a melee attack with the invigorating keyword. He will get 6 Temp Hp.
Round 2, they manage to not get hit, and hit again with the same power. Does he now have 12 temp HP, or still just the 6?
What if he misses everyone in round 2? Will he have 9 temp hp? Or just 6 (the greater of either 6 or 3 temp hp)?
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
|
The general rule as I understood it was that temporary hit points NEVER stack with temporary hit points... EXCEPT for this specific instance where it states that they do (that darn exception-based design idea again).
HOWEVER, I don't think the exception stacks with the exception, which means that you can't "collect" THP. You can only refresh them. You attack, get 6 THP, then you get hit for 6 points of damage, so the next round you attack again and get 6 THP again. If you don't get hit, you can't get more THP because you already HAVE THP.
Think of it this way: You have an auxiliary fuel tank that stores an extra gallon of gas. The gas-siphoning monkeys keep coming after you to steal your gas, and they always steal the gas from the aux tank first. You can pump more gas into it (attacking and gaining THP), but it never holds more than a gallon. If the monkeys leave you alone for a couple of rounds and the aux tank is already full, then it's full. You don't get to add more fuel tanks to hold extra gallons. You only get ONE extra tank, and one gallon is as much as it can hold.
It's essentially a continuously replenishing buffer, but the buffer never increases in size; it is either empty or full, but never growing. It doesn't directly heal you if the real you takes damage.
Really, it's a rather like 3rd Ed style damage reduction, dressed up in new clothes.
Er...I'm not sure you understand how Battlerager Vigor works.When you hit with a melee or close power, you gain temporary hit points equal to your Constitution bonus (it sounds like this is 3 for you). When you hit with a power with the invigorating keyword, you gain temporary hit points equal to your Constitution bonus (again, 3). When you hit with a melee or close power that has the invigorating keyword, you gain temporary hit points equal to your Constitution bonus twice, and they stack. So most of the time you should be getting 6 temporary hit points per attack, which goes a long way towards mitigating the damage you think you'll be taking. Feats can improve this further.
Thanks Scott, that is how I had thought that it would work. My real problem, I suppose, was going to the ENWorld threads and reading those answers there...my brain hurts now.
So here's the final question: If I am not hit that next round, but I hit again, do I accumulate a total of 12 temp hp, or do I just gain 3 more from the invigorating power, or am I held at a max of 6 temp hp?
You are held at your max of 6 temporary hit points.
Realize, however, that this is what you'd get at 1st level. Most monsters at 1st level hit for around 8 or 9 damage. Assuming you're fighting two at the same time, and that one of them hits each round and deals 9 damage, you're ignoring 66% of the incoming damage you're taking. That's huge.
|
Wayfinder, PaizoCon Founder
|
Realize, however, that this is what you'd get at 1st level. Most monsters at 1st level hit for around 8 or 9 damage. Assuming you're fighting two at the same time, and that one of them hits each round and deals 9 damage, you're ignoring 66% of the incoming damage you're taking. That's huge.
But, it diminishes A LOT in effectiveness by 5th level (which is what I'm playing at). I chose this build because our DM is brutal, dishing out HUGE hits of 20+ points of damage with creatures with ACs better than what we have. I rolled up this battlerager shifter specifically to counter his crazy-hard encounters.
It would appear that he will still have the upper hand, it seems.
Realize, however, that this is what you'd get at 1st level. Most monsters at 1st level hit for around 8 or 9 damage. Assuming you're fighting two at the same time, and that one of them hits each round and deals 9 damage, you're ignoring 66% of the incoming damage you're taking. That's huge.But, it diminishes A LOT in effectiveness by 5th level (which is what I'm playing at). I chose this build because our DM is brutal, dishing out HUGE hits of 20+ points of damage with creatures with ACs better than what we have. I rolled up this battlerager shifter specifically to counter his crazy-hard encounters.
It would appear that he will still have the upper hand, it seems.
20 damage hits are very, very strong for 5th level - for reference, 20.5 damage is the expected average of a limited, high damage attack from levels 4-6. The problem here might be that your DM is throwing really tough monsters at you.
The way we played it, was that the only Temp HP that stacked were those gained through the invigorating keyword. This really only came into play a few times, when in combats where I managed to both hit and not get hit. As the front line fighter for my group, this didn't happen too often.
Well, apparently I've been playing my battlerager all wrong.
I went online to check what this new change to battlerager vigor ACTUALLY means, and was surprised to find out that vigor's temp HP don't stack? Apparently, I'm always going to be limited to only 3 temp HP.
Now the errata further limited it to only getting those wonderous 3 HP when you "hit an enemy", no longer when you are hit.
How is that awesome?? When my DM is hitting me for 20+ points of damage, how does this piddly 3 HP make this build worth the trouble??
Yet another class is scaled back to the point that I have to ask why I'd even want to play it.
Glad your having such issues...
OK I'm just being mean now, what I really mean is that I'm glad that the powers and feats are being scaled so that they are comparable to other builds. Your issue where your becoming a pure bred munchkin to stay alive in your DMs adventures are really between you and him. I don't like it when the game, as a whole, supports such extreme munchkanization. Its bad for the game if some builds are so significantly better then other options.
Hence I truly hope that WotC nerfs your every attempt to stay alive in your DMs campaign. Your pain is our gain.
Hmmm...looking at my tone here I suspect I had best just throw myself on my sword preemptively and umm...
Maybe I should say your being sacrificed for a good cause? Yeah not so sure that sounds much better...
Umm...Good luck and look into builds that run really fast.
|
Wayfinder, PaizoCon Founder
|
OK.
Just to be clear, I am not 4e bashing here. I like 4E just fine. I play it. I buy the books. And I can now see how the battlerager build was unbalancing to most campaigns.So, I apologize for popping off and criticizing. Peace.
My initial reply up there was one out of frustration. To me, this build should have been written more clearly. Honestly, it would have helped me a whole lot better if the battlerager vigor piece explicitly stated that "temporary hit point rules apply (see PHB pg. 293)". Heck, if we want to go further, if it is so broken, this build should have been reviewed more beforehand.
All in all, the fix seems alright. I understand it now, and I understand WHY. That said, I still personally liked the original idea that the more you hit the battlerager, the potentially more dangerous he became. It sort of helped mediate the poor Dex and AC that my character tended to have...like he WANTED to be hit so he could sort of freak out a bit.
Now....well, now he just gets worked up when he swings. It's OK, but...it's not the same. (shrugs). Well, at least I will be able to see how that whole shifter thing works, because the chances are very high that he'll be bloodied every single encounter now.
I honestly never thought that the Battlerager was broken. The Temp HP gained by being hit was nice, but there always seemed to be ranged attacks, or Ongoing Damage effects that mitigated those.
The stackable Temp HP (Through the use of Invigorating powers) hardly ever seemed to come into play, as my fighter was placing himself in the front lines and always seemed to take a lot of hits. The only encounter I can remember where I managed to build up a bank of temp HP was against some Golem type creatures that were slow and easy to hit (but not to damage) and weren't good at hitting me. Even then, I only managed to do that for 3 rounds, building up 15 temp HP...not game breaking.
I honestly never thought that the Battlerager was broken. The Temp HP gained by being hit was nice, but there always seemed to be ranged attacks, or Ongoing Damage effects that mitigated those.
The stackable Temp HP (Through the use of Invigorating powers) hardly ever seemed to come into play, as my fighter was placing himself in the front lines and always seemed to take a lot of hits. The only encounter I can remember where I managed to build up a bank of temp HP was against some Golem type creatures that were slow and easy to hit (but not to damage) and weren't good at hitting me. Even then, I only managed to do that for 3 rounds, building up 15 temp HP...not game breaking.
Well your group could always house rule it but the general consensus was that it was broken. In fact, from going through some of the adventures in Scales of War I'd estimate that only maybe 33%-40% of encounters have enemies with range attacks, I think your DM may have been adjusting to your build.
OK.
Just to be clear, I am not 4e bashing here. I like 4E just fine. I play it. I buy the books. And I can now see how the battlerager build was unbalancing to most campaigns.So, I apologize for popping off and criticizing. Peace.
My initial reply up there was one out of frustration. To me, this build should have been written more clearly. Honestly, it would have helped me a whole lot better if the battlerager vigor piece explicitly stated that "temporary hit point rules apply (see PHB pg. 293)". Heck, if we want to go further, if it is so broken, this build should have been reviewed more beforehand.
All in all, the fix seems alright. I understand it now, and I understand WHY. That said, I still personally liked the original idea that the more you hit the battlerager, the potentially more dangerous he became. It sort of helped mediate the poor Dex and AC that my character tended to have...like he WANTED to be hit so he could sort of freak out a bit.
Now....well, now he just gets worked up when he swings. It's OK, but...it's not the same. (shrugs). Well, at least I will be able to see how that whole shifter thing works, because the chances are very high that he'll be bloodied every single encounter now.
Thats an interesting build too but it'd have to be significantly reduced in terms of the number of hps it gave you. More like the Barbarian DR where you essentially shave just a few points off each hit.