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Oh, I'm aware that the Braveheart situation isn't the same as the one in question on this thread... I just posted this Braveheart tidbit as a reminder that not everything is black and white. If the player *constantly* sneak in people's bedroom to kill them, then sure, that's weird and perhaps he should worship the god of assassins... however, if this happens once or twice, but a player some slack and you'll see your game improve I think.
...that, and as a DM, it's always GREAT to have embarrassing events on hand about the PCs, so that when they are high level, one of their enemies can send "party-pooper" low level bard to crash the party and boldly announce to all nobles assembled how this PC brutally murdered this or this guy in their sleep... >:)
NOTE: I currently play a recovering drunk (Ftr5; sword and board) in a local Second Darkness campaign. He was trained by the Hellknights, said and done a few stupid things, and was jailed by them. Before being executed, he escaped and ended up in Riddleport. He's True Neutral, but due to his training, he's quite brutal (decapitates dying enemies; collects the heads and throws them over the gates of the crime boss who sent the goons after him; etc.) This kind of low wisdom stupidity would have resulted in him dying very young if it wasn't for his alliance with the other PCs and other crime bosses who have taken him in as a junior partner. The DM has interpreted these acts as chaotic and evil, and therefore his alignment has started to shift that way. I don't mind one bit. He's still loyal to the party. He still has goals and ambitions. It's just that when the blood starts pumping, he goes a little too crazy as far as the common man is concerned. His name is Chaine Alazario, but he has been deemed Chaine "The Butcher" Alazario. His recent involvement in the community has gotten rid of the chaotic portion of his alignment (he's still True Neutral with evil tendencies; meaning he could become Neutral Evil at some point). I don't mind: as long as you're having fun and don't betray the party, I find that letting the storytelling decide where your alignment goes is much better and quite liberating. I don't try to have my PCs "behave this way" (unless I play a paladin or cleric) and instead let the DM decide, as an impartial observer, where the PC's moral compass is pointing at.
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Yeah, what he said (check my profile for my full background story!)
:P
interesting indeed
it would have been kinder just to kill the andoran... but he might have been catched
Well, he *did* allow me to escape... [Chaine, in an out of character kinda way, looks downward and takes a few moments of silence...] for that, I owe Andoran a debt. A debt I intend to pay with Chelaxian blood whenever I can.
As GM, my ultimate goal is for everyone at the table to have a good time. In the interests of that goal, I'm willing to cut some corners. While I'm justified in coming down hard on the cleric, if everyone's enjoying themselves as things are, I'd bite my tongue and roll with it.
The problem is, everyone's not having a good time. The other players are coming to me outside of the game asking me to do something about the cleric: have his deity smack him down, pull out some deus ex machina magic item to stop him, etc. His personal goals and vendettas are interfering with the actual plotline of the adventure. He decides what his character wants to do and tries to get the other PCs to go along, and if they refuse, he denigrates them: "I thought you were a big, bad fighter, and you're a coward!" or "Your character ought to agree with me; you have to play your character!" And then half the party sits around doing nothing waiting for him to resolve his personal sidequests.
Now, I know the obvious question is: Why do we play with this guy? First, our whole group is related, so he's family; second, we actually have played without him at times, and it's just boring. The same chaotic tendencies that drive us up the wall a lot of the time provide the spark and chemistry that prevents the group from being just a bland collection of stats going from plot point to plot point.
So my challenge is to find a way to motivate this player to go along with the group without putting him into a sulk or making him feel like we're all against him, and to demonstrate that the rewards of following the plot are greater than what he can get by pursuing his character's personal whims. (And this is easier said than done, given that he actually enjoys playing through Baldur's Gate stealing from every house and store and pickpocketing every wandering NPC for handsful of gold pieces and random gems.)
I don't know that we'll get the chance to play this weekend, what with the holiday, but I'll come back after our next session and let everyone know what happened.
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I think the best way to approach a dynamic player with a strong personality is face to face after or before the game, when you're alone with that person. Just say that he's a kickass player and that he's the spice that this group needs, but "could you please try to work with the other players and share some of the spotlight?" Then tell him that you've been nice so far about his cleric but that "hint hint" the cleric's god might start showing signs of disapproval of the cleric's ways.
If the PC remains on the same path, then have a young child show up when the party is gathered at the inn, "I've had visions of Gorum, Sir, and he sends me to tell you that he will not accept any cowards into the Great Beyond. Gorum says this is the first and last time he warns you."
See what happens next. :)
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I think the best way to approach a dynamic player with a strong personality is face to face after or before the game, when you're alone with that person. Just say that he's a kickass player and that he's the spice that this group needs, but "could you please try to work with the other players and share some of the spotlight?" Then tell him that you've been nice so far about his cleric but that "hint hint" the cleric's god might start showing signs of disapproval of the cleric's ways.
If the PC remains on the same path, then have a young child show up when the party is gathered at the inn, "I've had visions of Gorum, Sir, and he sends me to tell you that he will not accept any cowards into the Great Beyond. Gorum says this is the first and last time he warns you."
See what happens next. :)
I agree with the above, except with regards to the kid. Next downtime they have (he spends a lot of time in taverns, no?) have someone pick a fight with him. Play it up that he's a big bad bully guy, has his bully boy friends with him, and don't like his face.
This should likely get his back up, and start a fight. When he's fighting, be sure to play up the joy of battle, Gorum's pleasure, what have you. Really get him going while he's bashing faces on bartops (make them about APL-4, drunk, and poorly armed, so as to allow for lots of mooks to plow through).
Once you've set the hook, stop rewarding his undesired play; don't describe off-camera actions, don't take time out for his individual plot-choices, and especially do not attempt to fairly resolve any "ambush in the tent" scenarios. In my games, this would play out like "ok, cleric you do what?" "i cast darkness, then sneak into his tent, then stab him...etc" "ok, you are successful at murdering him, you get no exp, and have 2 rounds to loot before anyone knows what you did. his sword, shield, purse, and ring are easily accessible, what do you do?" "um...." "ok, rogue, you hear combat in the next tent over, see a globe of darkness...roll initiative"
harsh, but fair, and it'll get the party-dynamic going. either they will kill him/kick him out of the group, or he will stop being such a bag of vinegar water with a nozzle, and you can go about your business of having fun.
good luck,
-t
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Once you've set the hook, stop rewarding his undesired play; don't describe off-camera actions, don't take time out for his individual plot-choices, and especially do not attempt to fairly resolve any "ambush in the tent" scenarios. In my games, this would play out like "ok, cleric you do what?" "i cast darkness, then sneak into his tent, then stab him...etc" "ok, you are successful at murdering him, you get no exp, and have 2 rounds to loot before anyone knows what you did. his sword, shield, purse, and ring are easily accessible, what do you do?" "um...." "ok, rogue, you hear combat in the next tent over, see a globe...
Nicely done. It doesn't force the player into doing things differently.. but it does take away his ME ME ME time and gives it back to the group. I think this would work best given the poster's constraints.
wasgreg
He needs to recognize that random theft and assault has non-random consequences, not just for him, but for the entire party. The local Watch and thieves' guild are likely to come after them.
You should stop rewarding his negative behavior (as mentioned above), but I'd also use it to set him up, feeding a hook to one of the main plot's antagonists. Say he stole a piece of jewelry: Let that belong to the villain's concubine. The villain is alerted to the party's activity and can prepare for their interference.
The problem is, everyone's not having a good time. The other players are coming to me outside of the game asking me to do something about the cleric: have his deity smack him down, pull out some deus ex machina magic item to stop him, etc. His personal goals and vendettas are interfering with the actual plotline of the adventure. He decides what his character wants to do and tries to get the other PCs to go along, and if they refuse, he denigrates them: "I thought you were a big, bad fighter, and you're a coward!" or "Your character ought to agree with me; you have to play your character!" And then half the party sits around doing nothing waiting for him to resolve his personal sidequests.
Red alert!
Take him aside (or talk to him separately) and tell him his antics have to stop, and now.
If he doesn't behave, kill his character and tell him the next one will have to be compliant with your guidelines, which are "don't be an a%+#@&!, don't ruin the game for the GM and other players."
I had something like that happening in my Runelords campaign. Apparently, one player had a bad weak, and his usually merely annoying fighter suddenly became a real pain. Called the people from Sandpoint worthless losers unworthy to live if they couldn't even defend themselves against a big large dragon and a warband of giants and dire bears, and demanded outrageous rewards before he would even consider risking his live for this. He was really obnoxious.
End result: Two or three people had their weekend ruined because of this, and I kicked out his character - and told him the next one will have to be of good alignment, and an adventurer. Not some coward who is in it for the money and hates risks.
He ended up quitting the campaign and good riddance. He usually is a nice guy and fun to play with (he still is in our other campaigns), but no one gets to ruin my weekend more than once.
second, we actually have played without him at times, and it's just boring.
Don't get me wrong, but that sounds lame. You can't have fun without him?
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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I'd probably send an ill omen the character's way after the dead, and reduce their available spells for a while. But as far as nuking his armor and spells on the spot? I don't think Gorum pays that kind of attention to a minor priest's actions. If said cleric was dumb enough to invoke Gorum's name during the deed, or actually cast a spell on the scene, I might do more.
For a brutal reminder have him dream of fighting Gorum himself [or an avatar/representation] and awake [a la Excalibur] to find himself implaled upon his own sword... [nothing fatal just a standard wound lol] - this wound never quite heals, and opens [damage + bleed] anytime he is "unfaithful" to Our Lord In Iron...
stop rewarding his undesired play; don't describe off-camera actions, don't take time out for his individual plot-choices, and especially do not attempt to fairly resolve any "ambush in the tent" scenarios. In my games, this would play out like "ok, cleric you do what?" "i cast darkness, then sneak into his tent, then stab him...etc" "ok, you are successful at murdering him, you get no exp, and have 2 rounds to loot before anyone knows what you did. his sword, shield, purse, and ring are easily accessible, what do you do?" "um...." "ok, rogue, you hear combat in the next tent over, see a globe...
This? Rocks! I'm partially to blame for allowing him to steal the spotlight, after all. And he has the death of this NPC built up in his mind like he's the BBEG of the whole campaign. Making it a huge anti-climax is brilliant. It denies him the glory he's looking for without giving him an excuse to get mad like the other players' ideas of removing his spells or killing his character would. It's just, "Okay, you got what you wanted, now can we get on with the adventure, please?"
Take him aside (or talk to him separately) and tell him his antics have to stop, and now.
If he doesn't behave, kill his character and tell him the next one will have to be compliant with your guidelines, which are "don't be an a@*~&!!, don't ruin the game for the GM and other players."
Wow, that conversation sounds familiar. It's why he's not allowed to play a rogue or anyone with the word "chaotic" in his alignment when I'm GMing.
Don't get me wrong, but that sounds lame. You can't have fun without him?
Yeah, it does sound pretty pathetic. The real problem is that, out of 4 players, two are just hack&slash specialists, to whom it never occurs to have a conversation with an NPC or do any social roleplaying. (They used to go through Baldur's Gate with a cheat guide so they could attack the guys they were going to end up fighting before their circles turned red and avoid all that time-killing dialogue.) I ran Hollow's Last Hope for 3 players, without Mr. Cleric, and intended on running the entire kobold trilogy, but when their whole attitude was to sit and wait until I told them to roll an attack at something, I decided I wasn't going to waste the intricacies of a Paizo-published adventure on guys who just wanted to play Diablo. (The one remaining RPer tried valiantly, but eventually one gets tired of carrying on a conversation with oneself.)
EDIT: Btw, thanks for inspiring the anniversary sale! :)
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Well, he *did* allow me to escape... [Chaine, in an out of character kinda way, looks downward and takes a few moments of silence...] for that, I owe Andoran a debt. A debt I intend to pay with Chelaxian blood whenever I can.interesting indeed
it would have been kinder just to kill the andoran... but he might have been catched
you might want to limit it to hellknights... not everyone with chelexian blood is a bad person, not even every chelexian
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stop rewarding his undesired play; don't describe off-camera actions, don't take time out for his individual plot-choices, and especially do not attempt to fairly resolve any "ambush in the tent" scenarios. In my games, this would play out like "ok, cleric you do what?" "i cast darkness, then sneak into his tent, then stab him...etc" "ok, you are successful at murdering him, you get no exp, and have 2 rounds to loot before anyone knows what you did. his sword, shield, purse, and ring are easily accessible, what do you do?" "um...." "ok, rogue, you hear combat in the next tent over, see a globe...This? Rocks! I'm partially to blame for allowing him to steal the spotlight, after all. And he has the death of this NPC built up in his mind like he's the BBEG of the whole campaign. Making it a huge anti-climax is brilliant. It denies him the glory he's looking for without giving him an excuse to get mad like the other players' ideas of removing his spells or killing his character would. It's just, "Okay, you got what you wanted, now can we get on with the adventure, please?"
je this might work too
good luck
Yeah, it does sound pretty pathetic. The real problem is that, out of 4 players, two are just hack&slash specialists, to whom it never occurs to have a conversation with an NPC or do any social roleplaying.
My condolences. I'm lucky in that my resident powergamer also likes to play in character.
I don't have any ideas for getting them to play along. Are they new? Maybe they have never been lured out of their shells. I think others might have better ideas to get them to play the game.
EDIT: Btw, thanks for inspiring the anniversary sale! :)
You're welcome.
I really need to get Paizo to give me an avatar and/or custom title out of this, to cash in on my newfound fame and popularity. Maybe "Keeper of the Seven" or something ;-)
I'd probably send an ill omen the character's way after the dead, and reduce their available spells for a while. But as far as nuking his armor and spells on the spot? I don't think Gorum pays that kind of attention to a minor priest's actions. If said cleric was dumb enough to invoke Gorum's name during the deed, or actually cast a spell on the scene, I might do more.
Doesn't Gods & Magic have some ideas on how Gorum makes his unhappiness known to his followers?
I really need to get Paizo to give me an avatar and/or custom title out of this, to cash in on my newfound fame and popularity. Maybe "Keeper of the Seven" or something ;-)
I don't know. In your case "Keeper of the Seven Sins" might be more appropriate. :P
I'd probably send an ill omen the character's way after the dead, and reduce their available spells for a while. But as far as nuking his armor and spells on the spot? I don't think Gorum pays that kind of attention to a minor priest's actions. If said cleric was dumb enough to invoke Gorum's name during the deed, or actually cast a spell on the scene, I might do more.Doesn't Gods & Magic have some ideas on how Gorum makes his unhappiness known to his followers?
It does :)
"Gorum shows his favor in iron weapons or armor that shed blood and filth when touched; certain legendary warriors are known for leaving a trail of blood and gore behind them even when not in battle, so great is Gorum’s love for their skill and carnage. His anger most often manifests in sudden patches of rust that appear often enough to completely ruin an item, and he has been known to punish a cowardly warrior by causing his armor to fall apart into a pile of rusty scraps just as a dozen enemies converge on him."
I really need to get Paizo to give me an avatar and/or custom title out of this, to cash in on my newfound fame and popularity. Maybe "Keeper of the Seven" or something ;-)I don't know. In your case "Keeper of the Seven Sins" might be more appropriate. :P
Since pure greed in so many of Paizo's costumers is the main product of KaeYoss most recent efforts, it is most appropriate to call him "Runelord of Greed".
--
So, where did I put this blasted key?
I really need to get Paizo to give me an avatar and/or custom title out of this, to cash in on my newfound fame and popularity. Maybe "Keeper of the Seven" or something ;-)I don't know. In your case "Keeper of the Seven Sins" might be more appropriate. :PSince pure greed in so many of Paizo's costumers is the main product of KaeYoss most recent efforts, it is most appropriate to call him "Runelord of Greed".
--
So, where did I put this blasted key?
Don't sell him short. He is a master of all Seven! :P
I'm a paragon of virtue! Honest!
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I think the best way to approach a dynamic player with a strong personality is face to face after or before the game, when you're alone with that person. Just say that he's a kickass player and that he's the spice that this group needs, but "could you please try to work with the other players and share some of the spotlight?" Then tell him that you've been nice so far about his cleric but that "hint hint" the cleric's god might start showing signs of disapproval of the cleric's ways.
If the PC remains on the same path, then have a young child show up when the party is gathered at the inn, "I've had visions of Gorum, Sir, and he sends me to tell you that he will not accept any cowards into the Great Beyond. Gorum says this is the first and last time he warns you."
See what happens next. :)
I agree with the above, except with regards to the kid. Next downtime they have (he spends a lot of time in taverns, no?) have someone pick a fight with him. Play it up that he's a big bad bully guy, has his bully boy friends with him, and don't like his face.
This should likely get his back up, and start a fight. When he's fighting, be sure to play up the joy of battle, Gorum's pleasure, what have you. Really get him going while he's bashing faces on bartops (make them about APL-4, drunk, and poorly armed, so as to allow for lots of mooks to plow through).
Once you've set the hook, stop rewarding his undesired play; don't describe off-camera actions, don't take time out for his individual plot-choices, and especially do not attempt to fairly resolve any "ambush in the tent" scenarios. In my games, this would play out like "ok, cleric you do what?" "i cast darkness, then sneak into his tent, then stab him...etc" "ok, you are successful at murdering him, you get no exp, and have 2 rounds to loot before anyone knows what you did. his sword, shield, purse, and ring are easily accessible, what do you do?" "um...." "ok, rogue, you hear combat in the next tent over, see a globe...
Even better!
That's beautiful psionichamster! (your Stonecutter/Illuminati membership is coming in the mail! :P)
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stop rewarding his undesired play; don't describe off-camera actions, don't take time out for his individual plot-choices, and especially do not attempt to fairly resolve any "ambush in the tent" scenarios. In my games, this would play out like "ok, cleric you do what?" "i cast darkness, then sneak into his tent, then stab him...etc" "ok, you are successful at murdering him, you get no exp, and have 2 rounds to loot before anyone knows what you did. his sword, shield, purse, and ring are easily accessible, what do you do?" "um...." "ok, rogue, you hear combat in the next tent over, see a globe...This? Rocks! I'm partially to blame for allowing him to steal the spotlight, after all. And he has the death of this NPC built up in his mind like he's the BBEG of the whole campaign. Making it a huge anti-climax is brilliant. It denies him the glory he's looking for without giving him an excuse to get mad like the other players' ideas of removing his spells or killing his character would. It's just, "Okay, you got what you wanted, now can we get on with the adventure, please?"
Exactly! and if he wonders why this is done all so fast as a sudden, you can even say that it's because his character is getting good/efficient at murdering people in their sleep and robbing them blind.
:P
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you might want to limit it to hellknights... not everyone with chelexian blood is a bad person, not even every chelexianWell, he *did* allow me to escape... [Chaine, in an out of character kinda way, looks downward and takes a few moments of silence...] for that, I owe Andoran a debt. A debt I intend to pay with Chelaxian blood whenever I can.interesting indeed
it would have been kinder just to kill the andoran... but he might have been catched
[in character] Really???? [/ic]
:D
I really need to get Paizo to give me an avatar and/or custom title out of this, to cash in on my newfound fame and popularity. Maybe "Keeper of the Seven" or something ;-)But your jester pic is becoming so iconic... maybe a gold/gem-adorned jester? :)
I was hoping for exclusive rights. It's a lot easier than travelling the earth and scaring the s+#$ out of people until they agree to change their avatar.
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"For a brutal reminder have him dream of fighting Gorum himself [or an avatar/representation] and awake [a la Excalibur] to find himself implaled upon his own sword... [nothing fatal just a standard wound lol] - this wound never quite heals, and opens [damage + bleed] anytime he is "unfaithful" to Our Lord In Iron...."
This. Hell yeah. You sound like you want him in your group and you are long time friends so I can understand how this is a sticky behavior that will be hard to correct. If you are more willing to take a gradual approach I would add to the above removal from his charater the ability to cast his highest level of spell. It will allow him to continue to play and contribute but still be a serious loss. That and some spots of rust on his weapons and armor that do no go away will be clear signs of Gorums displeasure. If he attones they he returns to Gorum's favor and these signs of his displeasure are lifted. If he actions continue to be cowardly then they get worse. Next his second highest level of spells goes. More rust on his equipment (like Gamer Girrl mentioned), maybe reducing their effectiveness across the board.
This is more likely to resemble the cleric slowly falling from grace that we so often see in fantasy literature.
The wound that Black Dow mentioned should be in his back, ironically mimicking the cowardly wounds he would inflict on others. As the wound gets worse it becomes a hinderance. A penalty to movement and and penalty to str, dex and con related skills.
This character would quickly become crapy to play if he engages in these cowardly actions often but "Hey, you chose to play a cleric falling from grace."
Tam
Well, the cleric got to commit his murder on Sunday. He slit the side of the tent, tossed in his darkness stone, and started hacking at the bed.
DM (me): Okay.
Cleric: What? What's happening?
DM: [more explanatory] Okay, you killed him.
Cleric: [laughing] Yeah, right. Seriously, what's happening?
DM: You killed him.
Cleric: No, seriously.
DM: He was asleep and unarmed and defenseless, and you came in and hit him with a big sword. He's dead.
Cleric: [like he's just caught on] Oh, okay. Who is this in the bed?
DM: [Insert NPC's name here]
Cleric: ...and he's dead?
DM: Yeah. Oh, and those guards who saw you earlier are coming in the tent behind you. They can't see in the darkness, but they're feeling around for you....
He spent most of the rest of the session fighting for his life and running, but he kept mumbling, "That wasn't what I expected," and "That was unsatisfying." Or, as one of the other players put it while the cleric was standing by the bloody bed, "Awkward!"
He met up with another NPC, neutral both in alignment and in the argument between the characters, while he was getting away, and the NPC expressed surprise at what the cleric had done, and, in particular, the way he had done it, saying he hadn't realized he was an assassin and took him more for an upfront battling guy. The cleric responded that he only fought honorable foes honorably but considered his victim dishonorable, which is not a distinction I'd expect Gorum to make.
The other players still feel that the cleric is getting off too lightly (hi, Javell!), but I pointed out that it's only been a few hours in game time since the murder and he spent all of that on the run and in battle so repercussions might not be expected to fall on him fully until he has some downtime to regroup and consider his actions. I have a few ideas up my sleeve thanks to the responses I've gotten on this thread. I'll post when we've played them out.
I have a few more questions I'd like your opinions on:
1) If the cleric suffers an alignment change, would he know about it? Or would he be surprised when he gathers the party around to channel positive energy and instead ends up almost killing them?
2) If the cleric were to decide to atone, what kind of actions might he take to do so? Gorum's not Pelor or someone, to be moved by weepy confessions; I would think he would expect action, and extreme action at that, to get his attention.
In my defense.....
Yeah, Joana's right, I would have killed him. Only because, technically, he was walking into suicide. It would have been easy cuz the odds were overwhelmingly against him. I will admit, though, the glory he was looking for and never got and his reaction of 'well this totally sucks' was priceless.
You're too kind to be a GM :P
The only form of atonement he can make to Gorum is to take his weapon in hand and go up against impossible odds.
See, Gorum thinks he's a sissy coward right now, so he needs to proof that he's actually got balls.
Even Abadar's boys would have more stones than that coward!
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Joana: I think you DMed the first part perfectly (i.e. casually stating that his victim is simply dead).
Where I think your game needs improvement was in the follow-up of that action (i.e. you still wasted the entire party's time with guards running after this cleric; so indirectly, he still took all the spotlight)
Next time (if there is one) simply have him kill the NPCs easily, with no repercussion.
The more pointless the deaths become, the more engaged with the "living" he will become...
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One more thing: this character is irrevocably evil in my opinion.
So yes, next time he channels energy, simply state "everyone in the party including the cleric takes ## pts of negative energy damage"
Thanks to PRPG's channel energy... there is now a much more direct way to find out your cleric has gone evil... one that impacts the party BADLY when they LEAST need a surprise like this (i.e. clerics will sometimes channel when there's a few PCs close to zero hit points, so this could very well bring multiple PCs into the negatives, or worse, kill one or two of them)
This, in my opinion, would be a real jaw-dropper. :)
One more thing: this character is irrevocably evil in my opinion.
So yes, next time he channels energy, simply state "everyone in the party including the cleric takes ## pts of negative energy damage"
Thanks to PRPG's channel energy... there is now a much more direct way to find out your cleric has gone evil... one that impacts the party BADLY when they LEAST need a surprise like this (i.e. clerics will sometimes channel when there's a few PCs close to zero hit points, so this could very well bring multiple PCs into the negatives, or worse, kill one or two of them)
This, in my opinion, would be a real jaw-dropper. :)
But this way the rest of the part suffers for his misdeeds - not really fair for the rest of the players. Perhaps of it starts out as possitive then changes to negative midway and therefore balances out as no healing but from thereon he now channels negative energy or he realises as he is channeling that it will ne negative energy and is given the chance to stop channeling. That would be fairer to the other PCs.
Of course this just means he is evil rather than rejected by Gorum as Gorum is ok with CE clerics, but not cowardly CE clerics. Better to have his domains to change also to those of a cleric of Norgorber (or similar) to get the message across.
Joana: I think you DMed the first part perfectly (i.e. casually stating that his victim is simply dead).
Where I think your game needs improvement was in the follow-up of that action (i.e. you still wasted the entire party's time with guards running after this cleric; so indirectly, he still took all the spotlight)
Next time (if there is one) simply have him kill the NPCs easily, with no repercussion.
The more pointless the deaths become, the more engaged with the "living" he will become...
Well, technically, the camp was attacked by monsters, and he was fighting/running from them. But you're right: I felt like I had to give him something to do, when it would have been better to simply let him spend the time trying to find the rest of his party, who had continued to follow the plotline of the adventure and were having a combat of their own -- and, most likely, being unable to, given his poor Perception. I dropped the ball. :P
As for alignment, I think I'm going to drop him to NE for now. (There's a case to be made for CE, but he does still show concern for party members, at least, and in the past, he has cast spells for the poor without asking for payment.) He's going to argue it, as he has rolled up a necromancer whose ultimate goal is to turn everyone into undead under his control and argued that he's not really evil since his plan would end conflict and unhappiness and bring about world peace, but the rest of the group will back me up.
{Javell, don't read this.}
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You know, it is funny how, in my experience, the most selfish, disruptive players are always drawn to necromancy.
That player then tries to justify desecrating the dead and animating corpses by claiming to do good with their horrible, disgusting violation of the laws of nature.
"Oh, well. That makes it okay, then."
"Really?"
"No."
Well, it went pretty awful.
The first time the cleric rested after killing the NPC, he had a dream. (I played it straight like it was really happening; he didn't realize it was a dream until I told him he suddenly woke up.) I had him roll a Perception check, then told him he was awakened by harsh chanting in the next room. He rolled a save, and then I told him he found himself unable to move or call out (so he thought he had been hit by a hold person or the like). Then the door to the next room opened, and the NPC he thought he had killed walked in, wearing black spiked full plate armor. After taunting him that he had expected a less cowardly approach, the NPC repeated the cleric's justification back to him: that he wouldn't fight honorably a dishonest person, then flipped him onto his face to stab him in the back with a huge greatsword. Then the cleric woke up, having fallen out of bed face-first onto the floor.
The player shrugged it off and said his character went back to sleep. When he woke up later, I told him he had slept restlessly with lots of nightmares. He told me that, on the contrary, his character didn't have any trouble sleeping at all. I said, "I didn't say you had a guilty conscience; I said you had nightmares."
So then he gathered all the injured party members around him to channel energy and announced that everyone got 9 points. "Of harm," I put in. He was incredulous, and I told him that he didn't feel the warmth he usually felt when channeling positive energy but instead a sense of anger and violence. Then I told him his alignment had changed. Then it all blew up.
He kept insisting that his character wasn't evil, that what he had done wasn't murder, that he had done it for "the greater good," that none of us knew what was going on in his PC's head. When a couple of the other players told him they thought his character was evil too, he accused us of planning the whole thing behind his back to gang up on him. He almost got up and walked out. Although he ended up staying and finishing the session, he made a point of not doing anything but rolling when it was his turn, and when asked his PC's opinion on anything, he just said he would follow along and do whatever the rest of the party was doing.
So, all in all, I'm not sure it turned out all that much better than just gritting my teeth and bearing his behavior. We'll have to see how long he sulks.
Well, it went pretty awful.
I'm not sure the aproach was an adequate one.
Alignments is one aspect of the game everyone tends to be rather strongly opinionated about, and a never-ending debate. Simply denying spells to this cleric until he atoned somehow would have been a punishment from outside and a decision you can defend on more solid grounds... after all, Gorum is the god of -battle-, not necessarily of -war-. Such is the price of playing clerics.
Changing a character's alignment, on the other side, is something many players will feel as a direct invasion to a character that is supposed to be theirs and theirs alone, and a decision you can't defend objectively because of the aforementioned reasons regarding alignments, so the player is most likely to boil down anything you might say to "because I say so", and will inevitably generate hard feelings.
Well, it went pretty awful.I'm not sure the aproach was an adequate one.
Alignments is one aspect of the game everyone tends to be rather strongly opinionated about, and a never-ending debate. Simply denying spells to this cleric until he atoned somehow would have been a punishment from outside and a decision you can defend on more solid grounds... after all, Gorum is the god of -battle-, not necessarily of -war-. Such is the price of playing clerics.
Changing a character's alignment, on the other side, is something many players will feel as a direct invasion to a character that is supposed to be theirs and theirs alone, and a decision you can't defend objectively because of the aforementioned reasons regarding alignments, so the player is most likely to boil down anything you might say to "because I say so", and will inevitably generate hard feelings.
You have a point, although I don't think the "Gorum is displeased" angle would have gone any better. He also insists that his actions are in line with Gorum's teachings and that killing the NPC while in his bed wasn't cowardly at all; he thinks it was a brave act. He's no more impressed with me as the mouthpiece of his deity than as the arbiter of good and evil. It still would have come down to his argument that we're all trying to tell him "how to play his character."
But I have to admit that it galled me personally that he was channelling the power of sweetness and light while murdering people and selling men into slavery. I might have been willing to let him remain Neutral in name as long as the energy he channelled was negative.
He also insists that his actions are in line with Gorum's teachings and that killing the NPC while in his bed wasn't cowardly at all; he thinks it was a brave act.
From Gods and Magic:
Gorum is a headstrong and impatient deity, prone to impulsive and emotional outbursts. His first reaction to an unexpected situation is typically violence, and when he spies something he likes, he takes it. He sees no value in diplomacy or negotiation. His idea of art is blood spattered on a shield. To him, music is the ringing of metal on metal, the crack of breaking bone, and the screams of injured foes. Poetry is the recitation of challenges and the retelling of battles, victorious or otherwise. He laughs at pacifists, especially at the fear on their faces as he chops them apart. He cares nothing for anything but war, and only valorous war—using poison, disease, or other cowardly methods to kill is the path of the weakling.
Show this to your player. =)
He also insists that his actions are in line with Gorum's teachings and that killing the NPC while in his bed wasn't cowardly at all; he thinks it was a brave act.From Gods and Magic:
Gorum is a headstrong and impatient deity, prone to impulsive and emotional outbursts. His first reaction to an unexpected situation is typically violence, and when he spies something he likes, he takes it. He sees no value in diplomacy or negotiation. His idea of art is blood spattered on a shield. To him, music is the ringing of metal on metal, the crack of breaking bone, and the screams of injured foes. Poetry is the recitation of challenges and the retelling of battles, victorious or otherwise. He laughs at pacifists, especially at the fear on their faces as he chops them apart. He cares nothing for anything but war, and only valorous war—using poison, disease, or other cowardly methods to kill is the path of the weakling.
Show this to your player. =)
He has been shown this. Repeatedly.
He has been shown this. Repeatedly.
Uhm then perhaps he should consider a career change? Perhaps a character that isn't so restricted by "odiously ambiguous codes"? =P
IMO, you've done what you can with this player. You are the GM, and your call is the word, and if he's not going to accept that, he's the one with the problem. Yes, it makes things awkward, and I see the further problems of family coming into it, but it is your campaign, and he's the one in denial when he argues about things that are clearly writtin in the Gods and Magic.
Good luck getting him to see the light, and in not, hopefully he'll be happier with his next character!