Seriously, Charles? Wow. Just. Wow.
Your post may quite possibly be the most blunt, most rude, most irritating post I've seen on our boards. You're being blunt, I'm going to be blunt in return:
I can't believe you had the nerve to post that.
Where did you expect to go with that post? Did you expect to rile up some feathers, get some Paizo employees angry with you? Did you expect to get the CEO and owner of our company on these messageboards (the most open, honest, and willing to share with the community CEO I've ever worked for) seriously arguing with you about our business decisions? Did you really think that would happen?
I'm half a click away from suppressing your post and dropping a temp ban, but I'd rather leave your words out there for everyone to see.
I will only address part of what you said and I'm leaving the rest alone. As you're aware of, we needed to keep a core rules set in print in order for our core business (Pathfinder AP) to be sustainable. We're doing that. Part of keeping a core rules set in print is supporting that core rules set. To insinuate that we're taking our eye off the prize (Pathinder AP) is insulting and rails against the awesome work James, Wes, Sean and everyone else is pouring into every single volume of Pathfinder.
Your entire post finishes with an incredibly selfish motivation: "I have pretty much given up on James Jacobs ever having the time to update his copy of the Campaign Setting errata posts I was making." Allow me to assure you that James reads that thread every single time it's updated, marks up a copy of the book he keeps next to his keyboard, and will make all reasonable changes to that book the next time we have an opportunity to publish it. Just because he's not directly responding to YOU or acknowledging YOU (because he's busy) isn't an affront to you and sure as hell doesn't mean we're altering our entire publishing operation.
None of us here can really figure out what it is you want to have happen as the result of this post. My advice? Relax.
Chief Technical Officer
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(By the way the total number of products given, of 235, does not sum up to the individual product figures given.)
The Pathfinder RPG Launch Poster is in the Pathfinder RPG section as well as the Pathfinder Accessories section, so if you're adding up subsection counts, you've counted it twice.
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The Pathfinder RPG Launch poster is in the Pathfinder RPG section as well as the Pathfinder Accessories section, so if you're adding up subsection counts, you've counted it twice.
Listing it in two different places, huh? Sounds like a sneaky way of transitioning the Paizo business model away from Adventure Paths and toward POSTERS!
I would encourage you, regardless of your real life concerns and frustrations, to leave those behind when visiting our boards. We're on the eve of a huge release for Paizo and something that could make our company and our community a huge success for years to come. To imagine that this inspires anything less than giddy glee among our community baffles me.
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As the original poster. I wish to say that Paizo had to create a core ruleset to continue publishing their adventures that you have enjoyed, charles25. They have posted their reasons for doing this time and again all over their boards. They can't expect everyone who just stumbles into Roleplaying to go to eBay or a secondhand seller and acquire used WotC 3.5 Core Rulebooks. Instead of just going through the motion of reprinting the SRD, they decided to help out us gamers and make a better game. I can't fault that logic. They are paving the road for the massive amount of "adventure traffic" to come. This was not an easy thing for them to do. I am sure this has restricted many of them in a "creative straight jacket".
If you have ever been forced to work on something for an insanely long time, there comes a point where you ask yourself, "Is this what I really want to be doing?" When one get's to that point, watching grass grow sounds like something that is being missed. These guys have sacrificed and labored to forge something special. Don't take that away from them. They have plenty of regrets, but this book will endure past those hardships.
And my answer to your question. They have built a better vehicle to tell their stories. This is how Paizo works.
Let's celebrate!
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Wow. I go to render and upload video and come back to a completely divergent direction to this thread.
Personally, I'm greatly impressed and grateful that the Paizo staffers are able to get as much time on the boards with everything they have going on as they have been able to do. Having worked at jobs that are deadline heavy before, I empathize with them in this final stretch before the release date.
Additionally, for any company to move forward, it really does need to continue working on those projects and products that will add value to those products they have already put out to the public. Without this a company faces possible stagnation and loss of customer base.
As to the thought of the APs moving from the focal point of the company, I really don't see this. The APs have been coming out on a regular basis and if they were falling from the point of focus, I would have expected the regularity of the deliveries of the APs to have dropped or become sporadic. This has not happened.
But, this discussion is not the topic for which the thread was originally set up. In the spirit of the OP, I humbly submit:
I'm in the process of uploading Game Design Self-Editing Workshop by Sue Cook ... it should be done in 3.5 more hours (the file is about 1.3GB). Once it's good to go, I'll update the thread. Secrets of the Publishing Industry - Your Questions Answered should follow in the next day or two.
Seriously, Charles? Wow. Just. Wow.
Your post may quite possibly be the most blunt, most rude, most irritating post I've seen on our boards. You're being blunt, I'm going to be blunt in return:
I can't believe you had the nerve to post that.
You're joking, right Josh - or just hassling back at Charles? Because really, his post hasn't even come close to the worst I've seen around here by any standards any of bluntness, rudeness, or sheer irritation. Yes, you must be kidding him. Haha, "How dare someone object to our industrial strength printing!"
Really. I'm going to guess that Charles isn't the only one shocked and awed by the volume of stuff you guys are now producing. And as I look at it I think about what happens when the balls are pushed to the wall on productivity....
How I really feel, Josh:
I would encourage you, regardless of your real life concerns and frustrations, to leave those behind when visiting our boards....
Yah, let's just close the "Things in life that suck" thread. I mean everyone can block out their real lives while visiting Paizo, right?
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Chief Technical Officer
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Counting just book-style pathfinder products, and assuming that PFS modules count as a sort of Adventure Path, you have 37 Adventure Path products you have made yourself on the store, and 27 PFS scenarios.
Against that you have 10 PFRPG products, 28 modules, 28 chronicles, and 12 companions. Even discounting a couple of the rulebooks and DM screen from this, your modules/chronicles/companions/PFRPG products are already running practically neck and neck in terms of numbers (and page count, I would guess) with your AP's and PFS scenarios.
To address some of your specifics, yes, the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook is our number one priority for August, and the Bestiary is our number one priority for September. After that, though, the monthly Adventure Path will return to being our number one priority on an ongoing basis.
As for all the business about product counts and page counts, I'd suggest you look at what we're producing on an ongoing basis. Taking the seven-month period starting in October (after the blip in the schedule that the Core Rulebook and Bestiary create) and ending in April (the latest we've announced products), you get the following in the Pathfinder lines:
Adventure Path: 7 products totaling 700 pages
Chronicles: 6 products totaling 384 pages plus 2 map folios
RPG: 1 product totaling 320 pages
Pathfinder Society Scenarios: 14 products totaling roughly 224 pages
Modules: 4 products totaling 128 pages
Companion: 4 products totaling 128 pages
In short, the AP line gets about twice as much content as any other line on an ongoing basis.
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I would, in a more restrained manner, concur with the concern that Paizo appears to be increasing the number of product lines fairly regularly.
Is this sustainable? I seem to have heard that the pit is swamped, that they need to get X or Y out of the way before they can get any sleep, every other week since Burnt Offerings was being written.
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Having met Charles over the weekend, at Paizocon UK, I can vouch that he is very much a fan of Paizo products, and excited by their adventures.
He was also extremely polite to everyone, and helped us clear up the room, despite having been unable to play.
I think if he has upset anyone, it is unintentional and/or out of character.
I didn't see his post as being rude, but then, I've not spent 18 months gearing up for, and gambling my future on, the release of a new RPG that's a mere four weeks away.
It's like organising a huge, important party, and having someone come by and say they don't like the colour of the balloons. I'd roll my eyes and be irritated, but that's about it; I certainly wouldn't rate it as one of the worst posts ever read. What, more so than, say, Turbonium Dragon?.
Having said that, I can't really see a cause for complaint. All AP instalments are keeping to schedule; if they'd been cancelled, cut back, or missed their deadlines, I'd be worried, but they haven't.
All the extra product is in addition to what was promised.
Thumbs up from me.
I also tend to view Paizo's main focus as being Golarion itself, not just the monthly AP. The city guides, nation guides, race guides, Gods & Magic, new monster ecologies, etc are optional extra material for the APs, allowing the DM to expand and enrich the adventures, and players to better fit their PCs to the setting.
Sure, you could run CotCT without the guide to Korvosa, or Second Darkness without the Elf book, but having them is like jam on top.
So, a book like 'Dark Markets: Guide to Katapesh' could be viewed as 'Chapter 0' of Legacy of Fire, rather than a product competing with it.
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The claim of "lack of focus on AP" would have some merit if AP quality was going down. Granted, SD wasn't exactly all cherries and peaches (adventure 5 *COUGH*), but LoF seems to be back on the track of awesomeness.
Also there are some great changes to the AP, mostly with ditching the bloody set pieces. Now if only Paizo ditched the map folios... :)
And I guess that Paizo crew might be a bit stingy, given that their "big moment" is just a few weeks away.
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Having said that, I can't really see a cause for complaint. All AP instalments are keeping to schedule; if they'd been cancelled, cut back, or missed their deadlines, I'd be worried, but they haven't.
They have missed deadlines, nothing really drastic. Mostly due to either late shipments or late turnins from writers.
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Chief Technical Officer
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I would, in a more restrained manner, concur with the concern that Paizo appears to be increasing the number of product lines fairly regularly.
Is this sustainable? I seem to have heard that the pit is swamped, that they need to get X or Y out of the way before they can get any sleep, every other week since Burnt Offerings was being written.
Well, the last three lines we've added have been:
- Pathfinder Companion, which didn't change the workload because it replaced Pathfinder Modules in alternating months
- Pathfinder Society Scenarios, which didn't significantly increase the editorial workload because Josh is handling most of it
- Pathfinder RPG, which definitely did increase the workload, but will be settling down soon.
Now, as far as that extra workload from the RPG goes, we did gain some extra bandwidth to cover that. We brought in two editorial interns to help us through the peak period, and Lisa, Erik and I also dedicated a lot of our time to assisting on the Core Rulebook and Bestiary. Also, shifting Planet Stories to a bimonthly schedule means that James Sutter and Chris Carey have more time to work on our Pathfinder lines, which should help cover the ongoing impact of the Pathfinder RPG line.
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Topic side step:
Game Design Self-Editing Workshop by Sue Cook
You may now go back to business as usual.
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Topic side step:
Game Design Self-Editing Workshop by Sue Cook
You may now go back to business as usual.
Yes, let us look to the future. I am rather happy about the direction things are heading. As far as rudeness goes, sometimes it doesn't matter how rude a person was but rather when it was. Timing can be hard to judge when all you have is these boards.
The post I responded to and the post that currently occupies that same space are not one and the same. I stand by my response.
The post I responded to and the post that currently occupies that same space are not one and the same. I stand by my response.
Fair enough.
Incidentally, I can't watch Paizo's blog video. From posts regarding this video I get that it's coming in off youtube. I assume you guys were worried about overloading your server by people viewing - that I understand.
Unfortunately, youtube has been banned here for a good 4 months now and I can't get anything from them either linked or directly.
Now Sue Cook's video, yes. Thanks to whoever put it up at open source video.
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Last video from me folks. This is the last of the footage I got. Enjoy.
Secrets of the Publishing Industry - Your Questions Answered
By the by, I am in the process of overhauling my site, which will include all the videos I've posted here with the associated handout material where applicable. Once it's up, I will post the URL here.
Thanks again to all the folks at the seminars for allowing the filming and posting of the seminars and related material. You are all a great group of folks!
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Incidentally, I can't watch Paizo's blog video. From posts regarding this video I get that it's coming in off youtube. I assume you guys were worried about overloading your server by people viewing - that I understand.
Unfortunately, youtube has been banned here for a good 4 months now and I can't get anything from them either linked or directly.
Now Sue Cook's video, yes. Thanks to whoever put it up at open source video.
Kruelaid, if you are referring to the full video, it's good to hear that IA is not blocked. Enjoy the videos!
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Incidentally, I can't watch Paizo's blog video. From posts regarding this video I get that it's coming in off youtube. I assume you guys were worried about overloading your server by people viewing - that I understand.
Unfortunately, youtube has been banned here for a good 4 months now and I can't get anything from them either linked or directly.
Now Sue Cook's video, yes. Thanks to whoever put it up at open source video.
Thought of that one too. Here is PaizoCon II Facebook. There you will find the first five videos though facebook videos. I will upload the last one in a day or two.
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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As you say, it's possible that the release of the PFRPG will result in a spike for all our backlist titles, and specifically for the Campaign Setting. At the current rate of sales relative to stock levels, I do not expect to reprint the book in 2010. Anything is possible, but I'd guess 2011 is the most likely year for a new printing of that book.
About all them worries about not having enough emphasis on the adventure paths and modules with all the pf core rulebook info circulating out there, there's a really easy solution to that...
...have them interns put some more indepths blogs about the upcoming adventure paths and modules up (that Dave fellow still about- if he hasn't left the Paizo building yet, just kidnaps him and holds him hostage til he writes up some moar stuff about Golarion). ;P
P.S. okay, it might not be quite so easy on the operational end of server, I concedes.
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Creative Director
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I am pleased to see, however, that you are increasing the page count of the Adventure Paths to 100 pages per issue; I take it that this is so that you can go to 96 pages of Adventure Path, alongside the four pages of adverts? :D
As a matter of interest are you able to comment on how soon you anticipate the Campaign Setting going to a second edition?
It seems to me that the release of the PFRPG might create a new wave of interest in Paizo's 'home' world.
The Adventure Paths are remaining at 96 pages each; there was a little bit of rounding going on in that list of pages, but not enough rounding to be significant.
Are you kidding? I have it on good authority that they do a reading before every staff meeting. ;-D
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Director of Brand Strategy
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Regarding PFS:
I expect that this question has already been answered in other places, but will the assumption be for Season 1 of PFS that players will have access to and be playing under a complete set of the PFRPG rules?
Don't forget, the core rulebook pdf will be only $10. And I imagine it's only a matter of time before the whole thing is up on one or more SRD sites since it's all being released under the OGL. But when it comes down to it, OP programs are a form of marketing. Paizo is running PFS for the same reasons WotC runs LFR—people who play are encouraged to purchase more Paizo and WotC products, respectively. Why would the largest release in the history of the company be immune to marketing through this channel?
Sir Charles,
At Paizocon, the Powers that Be stated that there would be a 30 day window for conversion of PFS characters from 3.5 to PFRPG. As far as I can tell, the only things you cannot change during this conversion is your character's name and faction.
And congratulations on what seems to have been a very well received Paizocon UK 1!
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Director of Brand Strategy
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Don't forget, the core rulebook pdf will be only $10. And I imagine it's only a matter of time before the whole thing is up on one or more SRD sites since it's all being released under the OGL.True, but dead tree products do not try to trip you with attacks of opportunity from snaking power cables, or threaten your sanity when you discover you forgot to charge the laptop battery and the dreaded 'power low' message flashes up at an inconvenient moment...
That's hardly the point. Carrying a laptop will also be much better one someone's back than carrying around a 5+ pound book. There are pros and cons to both formats, but that's neither here nor there. You said that expecting people to buy a $50 book in order to convert their character was a bit much to ask and I simply brought up two less expensive options to converting.
But when it comes down to it, OP programs are a form of marketing. Paizo is running PFS for the same reasons WotC runs LFR—people who play are encouraged to purchase more Paizo and WotC products, respectively. Why would the largest release in the history of the company be immune to marketing through this channel?Hmm. With regard to LFR, I thought 4E was supposed to be a complete break from previous editions? Whereas it seems to me as if it might in theory be possible to add an extra page or page and a half at the back of a PFS module (or as a separate 'conversion' download), giving adjustments to monster numbers and crucial NPCs for a 3.5 version of a PFRPG adventure or for a PFRPG version of a 3.5 adventure. However the difference between theory and implementation - especially given the concerns I have expressed earlier about strain on the editing team - may be more than is practical for Paizo's current purposes, I sadly appreciate. :(
Again, I don't see the connection between my comment and your response. I am saying that Paizo is running PFS specifically to get more people to buy their products. WotC is running LFR specifically to get people to buy their own products. It has been said several places and several times that there would be a single conversion document released to convert Season 0 scenarios on the fly, but backwards compatibility will make it so that more than addition of a few hp and CMB/CMD won't really be necessary, though I haven't seen said document. Again, though, this isn't what we were talking about. What does conversion of a 3.5 scenario have to do with whether or not it's "fair" for Paizo to require people to convert their characters?
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Don't forget, the core rulebook pdf will be only $10. And I imagine it's only a matter of time before the whole thing is up on one or more SRD sites since it's all being released under the OGL.True, but dead tree products do not try to trip you with attacks of opportunity from snaking power cables, or threaten your sanity when you discover you forgot to charge the laptop battery and the dreaded 'power low' message flashes up at an inconvenient moment...
But when it comes down to it, OP programs are a form of marketing. Paizo is running PFS for the same reasons WotC runs LFR—people who play are encouraged to purchase more Paizo and WotC products, respectively. Why would the largest release in the history of the company be immune to marketing through this channel?Hmm. With regard to LFR, I thought 4E was supposed to be a complete break from previous editions? Whereas it seems to me as if it might in theory be possible to add an extra page or page and a half at the back of a PFS module (or as a separate 'conversion' download), giving adjustments to monster numbers and crucial NPCs for a 3.5 version of a PFRPG adventure or for a PFRPG version of a 3.5 adventure. However the difference between theory and implementation - especially given the concerns I have expressed earlier about strain on the editing team - may be more than is practical for Paizo's current purposes, I sadly appreciate. :(
I really doubt that there will be that much strain on the "team" so to speak.
Prior to GenCon the pathfinder Society rules will be presented to everyone and there will be a session on Thursday dedicated to converting characters to the new rules.
I'm assigned to one of those sessions as a GM. I presume there will be many GMs assigned like myself who will be working at a table to assist with the conversions. I assume that most of the Paizo staff will be working their butts off selling the massive amounts of PFRPG books that will be in high demand.
My experience with GenCon last year was that there were plenty of experienced DMs, and I'm sure that we will be able to help players with their conversions all weekend long.
Something that Josh has not brought up, but very well has already thought through, is if he has any DMs in reserve for each session to handle conversions for players who has just arrived. I will ask this question when it gets to be time for the DMs to start working together online to prepare for this year’s session.
Basically it comes down to this... Like all other organized play groups, there is a certain amount of volunteerism that has to happen. This is part of my hobby that I want to be involved with. Helping others get involved in this sort of play is what I consider fun. I hazard to say that is what all the DMs signed on for as well. Josh and Paizo establish the drumbeat, but the DMs are what makes the society move and the players are going to make the difference in Pathfinder Society is going to win or lose.
So have a little faith, there are more people involved than you think. If you find me a GenCon, drop by and say hi.
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Creative Director
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In the end I suspect that what I am actually posting about with these past couple of posts is will Paizo do anything to keep on board in their organised play those who are not immediate PFRPG converts? I perceive (whether rightly or wrongly) that they could in theory do so, but I may be in error on this count, or muddling molehills and mountains.
Selling the PDF of the core rules for $10.00 is one way we'll be doing this. It's also worth repeating that the entire ruleset is open. More open than 3.5. It's easy enough for folks to get the 3.5 rules for free online via sites like d20srd.org, or by going to WotC's site and grabbing the source files. It will be just as easy to get PFRPG open content, I suspect.
Eventually, and in time, logic dictates that we should do something like a beginner's book or something like that. Rest assured, we DO have things like that in mind when we have our "what should we do in 2010, or 2012, or 2045" editorial meetings. But as you've noted, we've got a lot on our plate right now, and doing something like this isn't something we have the time or resources to address this year.
But the fact that we're moving forward with PFRPG does mean that the PFS will be as well. We have no plans of splitting the org play to have parallel PFRPG and 3.5 tracks or anything like that. To a certain extent, the hope that everyone in the PFS will buy a copy of the book is in a large part one of the primary reasons to have an organized play program in the first place, after all. If a PFS member doesn't want to convert to the PFRPG, and we can't convince him or her to do so by producing what we feel to be a superior incarnation of the rules or by recruiting passionate and excited volunteers to crusade for us... then we lose that PFS member, I guess.
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In the end I suspect that what I am actually posting about with these past couple of posts is will Paizo do anything to keep on board in their organised play those who are not immediate PFRPG converts? I perceive (whether rightly or wrongly) that they could in theory do so, but I may be in error on this count, or muddling molehills and mountains.
I don't see what the point would be in doing that considering that at the begining of the PFS all the players were told that they would only be using the 3.5 until PFRPG was up and going. Changing this would only paint PFRPG in a bad light.
All in all, I do think that this is nothing to worry about. The launch of Pathfinder Society 2.0 will generate a lot of buzz in gaming. The release of PFRPG at GenCon will generate a lot of buzz as well. This wave is worth riding.
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Will season 0 scenarios continue to be run, and count for faction missions after August?
By that, I mean, we have been told that the results will influence the campaign setting, and tilt the balance of power. So if, say, most Chelaxians completed scenario XX, and retreived The McGuffin of Mbongo* for reverse-engineering, making it available as a purchasable item for veterans of that faction, is there any point running scenario XX again?
*not a real faction goal, I assume.