Why must monsters advance in size when gaining HD (to become more deadly, stronger and have more hit points) when Intelligent races, namely PCs, don't?
They don't have to; you can advance monsters by character class as well (although it might stretch the imagination a little to have a giant boa constrictor with levels of paladin, say).
They don't have to; you can advance monsters by character class as well (although it might stretch the imagination a little to have a giant boa constrictor with levels of paladin, say).
Fighter and barbarian work (though the boa's the rage will most likely turn into 'death throes')
They don't have to; you can advance monsters by character class as well (although it might stretch the imagination a little to have a giant boa constrictor with levels of paladin, say).
But why class levels? Why can't you just add HD as the monster/creature's class instead of official classes?
I know I could always do so but I don't understand why more HD equals bigger is the official policy.
They don't have to; you can advance monsters by character class as well (although it might stretch the imagination a little to have a giant boa constrictor with levels of paladin, say).But why class levels? Why can't you just add HD as the monster/creature's class instead of official classes?
I really don't think there's a big difference between "just adding HD" and "just adding levels of warrior". YMMV.
Note that some creatures don't get bigger with more hit dice (or they get bigger very slowly). And how do you explain a 20 HD wolf (say) without having that wolf be either (a) really big, or (b) a highly trained warrior?
This coming from a non-D&D player…why would you need a 20HD wolf?
This coming from a non-D&D player…why would you need a 20HD wolf?
Because you really want to school someone with a wolf?
But I like the idea of the shriveled, scarred grey troll (used to be green) that has lots of HD as it has hundreds of years of combat experience.
Or the well breed well trained warhorse worth a whole keep.
If you're the DM, just rule 0 it and keep the monster the same size. I doubt the PCs will complain....unless they are planning on hiding in a cubby that is supposedly too small for the beastie to squeeze into....
It seems to me that you would want to build a better wolf. Just throwing Hit Dice at it seems like a cop out. Give it more intelligence. Give it a smart pack of minions too. Place it so it can take advantage of its environment. A special ability to two.
Maybe I am on the same page as you and not fully understanding your position. If I want to lay the smack down on the PCs then I find an appropriate monster. If it has to be a wolf, then I make it one unique wolf. A monster should be more than a container for Hit Points.
It seems to me that you would want to build a better wolf. Just throwing Hit Dice at it seems like a cop out. Give it more intelligence. Give it a smart pack of minions too. Place it so it can take advantage of its environment. A special ability to two.
Maybe I am on the same page as you and not fully understanding your position. If I want to lay the smack down on the PCs then I find an appropriate monster. If it has to be a wolf, then I make it one unique wolf. A monster should be more than a container for Hit Points.
Oh I do agree. I use monster HD like PC levels. Stat increases, feats, etc come with enough of them. So a high HD monster, plant (?) or animal has more special abilities, options, increased stats, etc. I just use HD as the means to make the vessel as it makes things more consistent for me. Though I am not opposed to creating specialty creatures.
I just don't understand the official view of it gained X HD so it has to have a size increase. It makes big monsters very common at mid-high levels and thus less exciting.
Ah, o.k. Ignore my rambling then.
I agree with SmiloDan. I doubt anyone would even notice.
There are "guardian" monsters that actually shrink in size in dungeonscape, though I agree that such shouldn't really be needed.
I think overall it's a sign to the players "hey this one is bigger so it is badder and the DM isn't just messing with you."
I don't have my monster manual handy, but I do believe certain "common" animals (horses spring to mind, I think) either don't allow for HD advancement, or have such a short range they never get a chance to get larger. But I understand what you're saying, I think. If you want to create Shadowfax, but for flavor and game rule purposes don't want to create him as a new magical beast or give weird magical abilities to a horse; but rather just want the "lord of all horses," something which is very much still a horse but simply better (in the same way a high level fighter is still a human, but better); then in that case, you want to just add a slew of HD and the associated feats.
Horses actually strike me as a very good example of a creature that needs to be able to be leveled. They are a fairly hardy creature for their CR, but at high levels, will go down in one shot. I know there aren't really that many cavalier characters around to make this a big deal, and most NPC riders are low enough level that it doesn't matter. But if the PCs desire to stay mounted as they level, the options either become paying for a weird mount, or taking Leadership to get a weird mount (because the weird mounts are the only ones worth having, just from a survivability standpoint).
In my case, however, I don't like that solution. Yes, it's fun to throw in someone mounted on a griffon, or a wyvern, or dire tiger, once in a while. But I don't like that being the norm. I like the norm to remain horses for the aesthetic feel of the world. Why shouldn't higher level PCs, before they can just teleport anywhere, or even afterwards, be able to find a stock of horses famed the whole world over; hardier, stronger, "better" than any other horses anywhere? Horses that won't die in the surprise round, basically.
Further, these horses shouldn't be the size of a cottage. They should remain horse-sized. The same can be extended to other animals.
All that rambling being said, I agree one should just bend the rules and slap more HD than normal on the creature without imposing a size change. I generally agree with the rules, that an imposing, legendary, ancient wolf makes sense as a creature larger than its normal kin. The rules, in this area, I consider very strongly to be simply guidelines, free for interpretation, bending, and even occasional breaking. I doubt any of your players will either 1) know or 2) cry foul.
This coming from a non-D&D player…why would you need a 20HD wolf?Because you really want to school someone with a wolf?
But I like the idea of the shriveled, scarred grey troll (used to be green) that has lots of HD as it has hundreds of years of combat experience.
That sounds like a troll with a lot of class levels to me.
Or the well breed well trained warhorse worth a whole keep.
Sounds reasonable to add some HD, natural armor, etc. Note that there are some templates that do this sort of thing, too (e.g. the Warbeast or Magebred templates).
LOL. Me too. Back when I was 18 my waist size was somewhere around 32. Now it's more like 42. I went from Medium to (Extra-) Large. ;)
Seriously, though, there are all kinds of possible solutions here. It's not completely out of the question to give a trained, experienced warhorse or other fighting animal levels in warrior--presumably they can get better, up to a point, without getting bigger. Shadowfax was probably awakened at the very least.
I think the main reason for making monsters larger as they advance is to keep the challenges commensurate with the theoretical increase in CR that comes with every 3 HD or so. If you're going to bump a wolf up by a certain amount of CR, it needs to be able to do significantly more damage, have a better chance of tripping its opponent, and so forth, and increasing its size helps a lot in that regard. If you want to just give the wolf HD, skill points, and feats, and normal ability score increases that's great, but you shouldn't increase the CR as much because let's face it, at 10th level a single attack with a 1d8 plus whatever (5? 7?) that you can achieve this way just isn't that scary. And it seems hard to justify a normal size wolf with a strength that exceeds 20--even with a "collar of giant strength." If you want a normal-sized wolf that scares (surprises?) your players, then you've got to do something to juice it up beyond just giving it more hit points and a better BAB and a couple of feats that slightly increase its attacks and damage. You need templates, or awaken it and allow it to cast spells, or make it a fey wolf from some "feywild" demiplane that has cool spell like abilities and can summon a huge pack of wolves (mob template!!!), or make it a variant winter wolf with a nastier breath weapon, or something.
The monsters that don't increase in size as they advance are generally not scary melee combatants per se--their strengths are in their spellcasting power, and it makes more sense to give them class levels than advance them by monster HD.
There's also the 'been there, done that' syndrome. If the PCs defeat a wolf pack at 3rd level, they feel cool and tough. If the PCs defeat a pack of normal sized advanced wolves at 20th level, they feel like hamsters in a wheel. "What exactly was the purpose of those last seventeen levels, again?" (Not that big wolves are so much more memorable than mundane wolves, but they might be memorable as part of a Land-Before-Time milieu.)
So the NPC at the tavern says "The Forest of Fangs is infested with wolves, who roam in great packs. The worst of these packs are led by the Sons of Deathfang, terrible beasts the size of ponies. And worst of all is the rumor that their sire, Deathfang, is not actually dead, but somehow lives on beyond what a wolf should, a great beast who's age has brought it cunning and strength beyond that of any wolf, with jaws that can snap apart the very trees. If you venture into the forest, my friends, do not stay long."
I'm going to go...."dang, sounds like some nasty wolves in there. Doesn't sound like dire wolves, just really nasty wolves."
The Sons of Deathfang could be dire wolves, or they could be advanced wolves, possibly with barbarian levels.
Deathfang could be an extrememly advanced wolf, possibly with barbarian levels, or even the Monster of Legend template.
I like advancing critters, especially for the "special" ones that inhabit the forgotten and feared corners of the world. Many a player of mind recalls "X" the Bullette, a fearsome beast with levels of barbarian who bore a great scar on its head that gave it its name. Ravenous, the landshark had one weakness: a sweet tooth. Travelers familiar with the region always brought with them a few pints of honey to purchase their safe passage with.
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Horses actually strike me as a very good example of a creature that needs to be able to be leveled. They are a fairly hardy creature for their CR, but at high levels, will go down in one shot.
Further, these horses shouldn't be the size of a cottage. They should remain horse-sized. The same can be extended to other animals.
War of the Burning Sky has an Equine Stalwart feat that works that way. Its in adventure 6, Tears of the Burning Sky, but might appear in other places as well.
Equine Stalwart (Fighter)
Your skill with horses is masterful, and your preferred mount stands above other horses because of how you have trained it.
Prerequisite: Handle Animal 4 ranks, Ride 9 ranks, Mounted Combat
Benefit: If you spend at least one day training with a warpony or light or heavy warhorse, that steed becomes more stalwart and attains an exceptional connection to you, like a druid’s animal companion. You can only have one stalwart mount at a time.
You can handle your stalwart mount as a free action, and push it as a move action. You gain a +4 bonus to all Handle Animal checks with it. Additionally, based on the number of ranks you have in Ride, your stalwart mount gains additional hit dice, similar to advancing an animal, so that its total hit dice is equal to the number listed in the table below. Your ranks in Ride also grant your mount bonus tricks, and it gains evasion (or improved evasion) as long as you are within 5 ft. of it.
For example, a rider with 9 ranks in Ride could give a stalwart light warhorse 2 extra hit dice, or a stalwart heavy warhorse 1 extra hit die, for a total of 6 either way. These extra hit dice grant new feats, skill points, and ability score increases, as normal for adding hit dice. Your horse does not increase in size.
(Table omitted)
I was always under the impression that the size increase was a nod to the potential size increases of creatures that have naturally grown or been bred to be tougher. While most do seem to get bigger as they get tougher it is true that they shouldn't have to. But, this was a limitation of creativity and practicality versus straight simulation. That was part of the reason I made sure you had the option to just advance a creature manually by adding racial HD and forcing the size to stay the same. So if you wanted a tougher beast with the original size you have that option.
That sort of flexibility lends itself more to an electronic medium vs. print just because of complexity.
--The Overlord
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