My rules lawyer seems to think that if there is an ally threatening an enemy and you are "threatening" with a ranged weapon in a flanking position within 30', you get sneak attack.
I said that you do not threaten with missile weapons and sneak attack is solely due to denying an opponent it's dex bonus to AC, via hiding/concealment.
So, in order to sneak attack, a rogue with a missile weapon needs to be within 30' and move to a position or cover/concealment, then hide then move out again where they have a shot. Opposed spot vs. hide to see if you will get your sneak attack. The only caveat is that you can only move half speed or you take -5 to your hide check.
Is there something more official than this, other opinions, etc??
Thanks,
My rules lawyer seems to think that if there is an ally threatening an enemy and you are "threatening" with a ranged weapon in a flanking position within 30', you get sneak attack.
I said that you do not threaten with missile weapons and sneak attack is solely due to denying an opponent it's dex bonus to AC, via hiding/concealment.
So, in order to sneak attack, a rogue with a missile weapon needs to be within 30' and move to a position or cover/concealment, then hide then move out again where they have a shot. Opposed spot vs. hide to see if you will get your sneak attack. The only caveat is that you can only move half speed or you take -5 to your hide check.
Is there something more official than this, other opinions, etc??
Thanks,
It does appear you are correct, I wanted to argue that he can flank with a ranged weapon but the rules do not seem to support that. So unless he catches him by surprise or acts before he has acted then he really can't do it with a ranged weapon. (first round of combat if the rogue went before the foe acted the foe would be flat footed and could be sneak attacked because he is denided dex at that time)
Worse for the rogue firing from the "flank" is still firing into a melee. He needs to either take a feat or take a -4 (size can reduce this) on his to hit roll.
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You are correct, you cannot get the 'flanking' Sneak attack with a ranged weapon because ranged weapons does not count as threatening for flanking.
But you can get a sneak attack with a ranged weapon within 30' anytime the opponent would lose his dex bonus.
The only way you can hide in the middle of combat is to first perform a Bluff check to distract the target long enough to hide.
This is from the SRD
If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide. You can run around a corner or behind cover so that you’re out of sight and then hide, but the others then know at least where you went.
If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check; see below), though, you can attempt to hide. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Hide check if you can get to a hiding place of some kind. (As a general guideline, the hiding place has to be within 1 foot per rank you have in Hide.) This check, however, is made at a -10 penalty because you have to move fast.
Sniping
If you’ve already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again. You take a -20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot.Creating a Diversion to Hide
You can use Bluff to help you hide. A successful Bluff check can give you the momentary diversion you need to attempt a Hide check while people are aware of you.
It is not easy to get sneak attacks off with a ranged weapon. The best time is in the beginning of combat by acting before your opponent does, because he is flat footed and loses his dex bonus.
But during combat, if at any time you are attacking someone with a ranged weapon who lost his dex bonus in any way *Spells, Flatfooted, etc) you can get a sneak attack off with a ranged weapon.
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Here's what the SRD has to say about threatened squares:
Threatened Squares
You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your action. Generally, that means everything in all squares adjacent to your space (including diagonally). An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If you’re unarmed, you don’t normally threaten any squares and thus can’t make attacks of opportunity.
Reach WeaponsMost creatures of Medium or smaller size have a reach of only 5 feet. This means that they can make melee attacks only against creatures up to 5 feet (1 square) away. However, Small and Medium creatures wielding reach weapons threaten more squares than a typical creature. In addition, most creatures larger than Medium have a natural reach of 10 feet or more.
Note: Small and Medium creatures wielding reach weapons threaten all squares 10 feet (2 squares) away, even diagonally. (This is an exception to the rule that 2 squares of diagonal distance is measured as 15 feet.)
Note that it says you threaten squares into which you can make a melee attack.
A rogue won't be getting ranged sneak attacks from having an ally flank on the opposite side of the opponent as he (the rogue) technically doesn't threaten any squares (unless he's wielding a crossbow one handed and has a dagger or something in his off hand, in which case he'll threaten the 5 ft. squares adjacent to him).
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Note that it says you threaten squares into which you can make a melee attack.
A rogue won't be getting ranged sneak attacks from having an ally flank on the opposite side of the opponent as he (the rogue) technically doesn't threaten any squares (unless he's wielding a crossbow one handed and has a dagger or something in his off hand, in which case he'll threaten the 5 ft. squares adjacent to him).
Of course if he tried to use that hand crossbow the enemy would get an attack of opportunity against him.
The only way you can hide in the middle of combat is to first perform a Bluff check to distract the target long enough to hide.
I'm assuming that if the rogue character ducks around a corner or such, it can make the hide check without a bluff. Right?
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I'm assuming that if the rogue character ducks around a corner or such, it can make the hide check without a bluff. Right?
The only way you can hide in the middle of combat is to first perform a Bluff check to distract the target long enough to hide.
Nop... Word for Word from The SRD
If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide. You can run around a corner or behind cover so that you’re out of sight and then hide, but the others then know at least where you went.
If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check; see below), though, you can attempt to hide. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Hide check if you can get to a hiding place of some kind. (As a general guideline, the hiding place has to be within 1 foot per rank you have in Hide.) This check, however, is made at a -10 penalty because you have to move fast.
Nop... Word for Word from The SRD
If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide. You can run around a corner or behind cover so that you’re out of sight and then hide, but the others then know at least where you went.
If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check; see below), though, you can attempt to hide. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Hide check if you can get to a hiding place of some kind. (As a general guideline, the hiding place has to be within 1 foot per rank you have in Hide.) This check, however, is made at a -10 penalty because you have to move fast.
I guess I don't understand then. If I went around a corner, why couldn't I hide and try to sneak back, applying hide vs. spot? Just because I went around that corner doesn't mean they automatically would know when I came back if I was hiding. And why the distance limitation and -10? I don't understand the logic of this.
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I guess I don't understand then. If I went around a corner, why couldn't I hide and try to sneak back, applying hide vs. spot? Just because I went around that corner doesn't mean they automatically would know when I came back if I was hiding. And why the distance limitation and -10? I don't understand the logic of this.Nop... Word for Word from The SRD
If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide. You can run around a corner or behind cover so that you’re out of sight and then hide, but the others then know at least where you went.
If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check; see below), though, you can attempt to hide. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Hide check if you can get to a hiding place of some kind. (As a general guideline, the hiding place has to be within 1 foot per rank you have in Hide.) This check, however, is made at a -10 penalty because you have to move fast.
Like it says... YOu may have went around the corner..but he knows you are there.. Hiding is usless because he knows you are there, even if he can't see you around the corner.
The idea with sneak attack and hiding is that they don't know it is coming. If you just go around the corner in full sight, they still know you are around the corner. That is why you need to distract them first with the bluff so they don't notice you going around the corner.
The basic part is that he can't do it, not the way he is trying. And to try and do it spending every other round buffing/hiding he will be very disappointed by the results. He'll do more damage in melee then trying this. Ranged attacks work well round one if you get the drop on them or simply go first, after that the rogue can do a lot of work to get more sneak attacks(with a chance to completely fail in the attempts) or he can move for a flank and melee them for a sneak attacks.
Now the scout get some kind of skirmish thing that might help make what your player wants, but I don't use the scout class, nor many of the prestige ones, they generally suffer from a lack of balance with the other classes. Either they are way too good, or way underpowered but for me I don't have the time to work out every stratigy they may use to exploit the system so I can't let them in the game. I do allow the DMG one and a few others at the players request I will look at a spefic one. I think war priest comes to mind as one I allow.
My understanding is that one can duck around a corner, make a Hide check, and (if it succeeds against the opponent's Spot check) have the opportunity to make a sneak attack. Because they know where you went doesn't mean they know the exact spot or when you're going to pop out again; thus, you can get a sneak attack.
Imagine the city guards chasing down a shadowy figure in the night. He runs around a corner and out of sight. They follow and find an alley filled with barrels and boxes. It's a dead end, so they know he must be in that alley, but they can't see him and thus don't know where exactly. They're alert and on guard, but suddenly the figure appears silently behind one of the guards and knifes him.
That's what I see this usage of Hide representing, and its possibility of being used in conjunction with Sneak Attack. Regarding the distance limitation, I believe that's in place because the distraction one gains from making the Bluff check is only momentary, just enough to dart quickly around a nearby obstacle. The RAW doesn't allow someone to make the Bluff check and then say they are going to go hide behind a building a hundred yards away. Instead, they have to work with what's in their immediate surroundings (how immediate depends on the skill of the hider, but is always pretty limited). Further, the hider isn't slinking slowly off to his hiding spot; he's got to get there fast, before the ruse is up. Because of this speed, he incurs a -10 penalty on his Hide check.
Essentially, this maneuver isn't something that's easy to pull off. For most people, the odds of actually making the check are extremely low. But for a very skilled sneak, it opens up whole new options. Read: it makes combat a little easier for higher-level rogues by giving them more ways to set up Sneak Attack opportunities.
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The basic part is that he can't do it, not the way he is trying. And to try and do it spending every other round buffing/hiding he will be very disappointed by the results. He'll do more damage in melee then trying this.
Totally...think of it this way. You are limiting yourself to only one attack every other round. And that's if you make all your checks. Then you take a shot and miss, you've essentially wasted not just that round, but 3 (because now presumably you have to bluff/hide again)
If this is truly a strategy he's going to pursue as a primary tactic for his character's build, he might look at shadowdancer PrC or, as I mentioned previously, there are a number of specific feats that allow it in certain circumstances.
One example I was looking at the other day was in Drow of the Underdark. It allows you to use the Darkness spell to make a hide check even if being watched. I forget what it's called. There was another feat in that book called Versatile Combatant that allowed the user to use both a hand crossbow and rapier, as if you had Two Weapon Fighting, and that firing the Hand Crossbow didn't provoke attacks of opportunity. I could definitely see a drow rogue or fighter making use of those feats to be a very good ranged combatant (that wasn't in trouble when in melee either).
There were other feats in the book that worked well with that build as well, such as giving yourself more uses of darkness per day, and lots of other neat stuff. I felt like statting out a drow fighter/rogue npc to see just how nasty I could make it, but didn't have time. Incidentally, that book also includes a variant for Drow Fighters, where you give up your ability to use heavy armor and tower shields in exchange for +2 initiative. Given that drow tend to have a high dex mod, add that +2 and improved initiative and you'll be catching more people flat-footed that first round as well, probably +8 or 9 to the roll.
I'm not suggesting you make a drow, I'm just using that as an example because I read it recently. I know there are others.
Ranged attacks work well round one if you get the drop on them or simply go first, after that the rogue can do a lot of work to get more sneak attacks(with a chance to completely fail in the attempts) or he can move for a flank and melee them for a sneak attacks.
Right, eventually, even using some of the tricks I mentioned above, at SOME point you'll want to close to melee on most combatants. Flank, stab, wash, rinse, repeat.
Now the scout get some kind of skirmish thing that might help make what your player wants, but I don't use the scout class, nor many of the prestige ones, they generally suffer from a lack of balance with the other classes. Either they are way too good, or way underpowered but for me I don't have the time to work out every stratigy they may use to exploit the system so I can't let them in the game. I do allow the DMG one and a few others at the players request I will look at a spefic one. I think war priest comes to mind as one I allow.
The scout skirmish ability would be a good sub here...it simply requires you've moved 10 feet during the round as part of the rules of its attack. This of course means you're limited to 1 attack per round but that would be the case with the bluff attempt too, and you don't have to worry about hiding.
As for your limiting of classes and prestige classes, my approach as a DM is pretty much the exact opposite. Rather than ban everything and make exceptions for what I approve, I start with the baseline of approving everything that's official WotC material, and only banning what I must. The way to find out what a class or prestige class does, and how it combines with others, is to play it. Players will come up with builds.
The great thing about 3.5 is its nearly infinite variety - if you can imagine a character concept, there's a class and/or prestige class designed around it. Maybe several. I'd prefer to embrace that rather than outlaw it all. It is likely to make more powerful characters, but that's OK - just amp up their challenges a little too, and it all balances out.
All I've banned at my table is Book of 9 Swords (doesn't fit with my idea of 3.5, WotC even admitted that it was a testbed for 4e), and all the Psionics stuff (doesn't fit with my idea of fantasy roleplay, just a personal taste thing). Pretty much everything else goes.
But as long as you're having fun, and your players are cool with it, play the way that works for you. I got a bit long winded there (NOT uncommon for me), but I hope it helps. :)
Yes, just to clarify, you can run around a corner (or anything else that gives you cover, yay fighters with tower shields!) and make a hide check. Depending on the opposed spot vrs hide, you are now hidden. The enemy still knows where you are, teleportation or invisibility nonwithstanding. But unless they make the opposed check, they can not see you, which is the state you are trying to acheive. Its much like blindsense vrs invisibility: the monster knows where you are, but can't actually see you.
Knowing where you are/seeing you = two different things.
Yes, just to clarify, you can run around a corner (or anything else that gives you cover, yay fighters with tower shields!) and make a hide check. Depending on the opposed spot vrs hide, you are now hidden. The enemy still knows where you are, teleportation or invisibility nonwithstanding. But unless they make the opposed check, they can not see you, which is the state you are trying to acheive. Its much like blindsense vrs invisibility: the monster knows where you are, but can't actually see you.
Knowing where you are/seeing you = two different things.
That's what I thought too, but RAW and explanations above seem to differ.
There is one practical way to repeatedly sneak attack with missile weapons: Manipulate the lighting. As long as the rogue is in darkness and his (night-blind) foes are illuminated, he can sneak attack to his heart's content. Obviously, many foes will have low-light vision or darkvision, but such a scheme is the half-orc alleybasher's best friend.
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Like many have said, ranged sneak attacks are not optimal. Since you can only flank from melee range, that leaves you to resorting to tedious hide checks that quite honestly stretches suspension of disbelief and wastes a lot of rounds, or use a lot of magic items that grant invisibility. Also, making a hide check after an attack (sniping) incurs a -20 penalty to your hide check, because the person knows where you are. Hiding in the same spot repeatedly won't fool anyone with an intelligence score.
EDIT: Also, how would you bluff from 30ft away to make a distraction? "Hey you! Look that way!" The entire tactic just seems assanine and sub-optimal.
Like many have said, ranged sneak attacks are not optimal. Since you can only flank from melee range, that leaves you to resorting to tedious hide checks that quite honestly stretches suspension of disbelief and wastes a lot of rounds, or use a lot of magic items that grant invisibility. Also, making a hide check after an attack (sniping) incurs a -20 penalty to your hide check, because the person knows where you are. Hiding in the same spot repeatedly won't fool anyone with an intelligence score.
EDIT: Also, how would you bluff from 30ft away to make a distraction? "Hey you! Look that way!" The entire tactic just seems assanine and sub-optimal.
Bluff wouldn't have to be quite so literal. It could be just waiting till the guy is raising his shield and ducking away then, or throwing dirt at his eyes, or whipping out a naked picture of Ernest Borgnine and thus blinding him briefly. You are taking a -10 or worse if the DM decides the situation warrents it.
I'm not a huge fan of it mind you, but as a tactic it isn't very strong.
Not sure if its been brought up yet, but an opponent that "runs" (x3/x4 mvt) and does not have the "Run" feat, loses her Dex bonus. Therefore, a rogue within 30' would be able to Sneak Attack them with a range weapon.
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Yes, just to clarify, you can run around a corner (or anything else that gives you cover, yay fighters with tower shields!) and make a hide check. Depending on the opposed spot vrs hide, you are now hidden. The enemy still knows where you are, teleportation or invisibility nonwithstanding. But unless they make the opposed check, they can not see you, which is the state you are trying to acheive. Its much like blindsense vrs invisibility: the monster knows where you are, but can't actually see you.
Knowing where you are/seeing you = two different things.
Problem is... He Knows you are there..... For Sneak attack it makes a difference..It won't work.
The RAW is really clear on this... There is no Wiggling with it..But as a GM you can do what ever you want. If you don't like the RAW..Change it.
Another thing..
Hiding and sneak attack is like invisibility and sneak attack.. As soon as you make your first shot you are seen, you only get Sneak Attack on your first attack when Hiding.
Yes, just to clarify, you can run around a corner (or anything else that gives you cover, yay fighters with tower shields!) and make a hide check. Depending on the opposed spot vrs hide, you are now hidden. The enemy still knows where you are, teleportation or invisibility nonwithstanding. But unless they make the opposed check, they can not see you, which is the state you are trying to acheive. Its much like blindsense vrs invisibility: the monster knows where you are, but can't actually see you.
Knowing where you are/seeing you = two different things.
Problem is... He Knows you are there..... For Sneak attack it makes a difference..It won't work.
The RAW is really clear on this... There is no Wiggling with it..But as a GM you can do what ever you want. If you don't like the RAW..Change it.
Another thing..
Hiding and sneak attack is like invisibility and sneak attack.. As soon as you make your first shot you are seen, you only get Sneak Attack on your first attack when Hiding.
This isn't backstabbing this is sneak attacking the only issues involved are denying him his dex, or flanking him.
See the funny thing is we are talking about hiding in concealment. IF you are hidden it doesn't matter if he can see you -- He can also see you at the start of combat but if he hasn't acted he is still denied his dex bonus.
Seeing isn't the same as knowing, and knowing is the same as being able to react with Dex, the issue is if he has his dex bonus, and if you are hiding he may know you are there (he also 'knows' the invisible creature is there doesn't mean he has dex on AC against it) but he doesn't have dex unless he makes the spot check.
The easiest way to get sneak attack with a ranged weapon is blinding your opponent or having invisibility (improved invisibility is better of course).
Just don't forget if the target has any form of concealment or miss chance you can't sneak attack it.
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See the funny thing is we are talking about hiding in concealment. IF you are hidden it doesn't matter if he can see you -- He can also see you at the start of combat but if he hasn't acted he is still denied his dex bonus.Seeing isn't the same as knowing, and knowing is the same as being able to react with Dex, the issue is if he has his dex bonus, and if you are hiding he may know you are there (he also 'knows' the invisible creature is there doesn't mean he has dex on AC against it) but he doesn't have dex unless he makes the spot check.
The easiest way to get sneak attack with a ranged weapon is blinding your opponent or having invisibility (improved invisibility is better of course).
Just don't forget if the target has any form of concealment or miss chance you can't sneak attack it.
Some of what you say is true..But to Hide in the middle of combat when he sees you, as it states in the RAW, You need to do a Bluff check first, otherwise you are not really hiding and not getting the benefits other then cover from it.
Either way... Best way to sneak attack is to start off with it in combat with range, then go into melle. Making an sneak attack Range character is hard to do, but is possible with the proper abilities.
You guys really need to read the rules.. It is clear as day on this..
Note: as I have said, if you don't like the rules though, change them.
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Problem is... He Knows you are there..... For Sneak attack it makes a difference..It won't work.
The RAW is really clear on this... There is no Wiggling with it..But as a GM you can do what ever you want. If you don't like the RAW..Change it.
I disagree with you on this. I think you are the one who is reading the raw and misinterpreting it.
If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide. You can run around a corner or behind cover so that you’re out of sight and then hide, but the others then know at least where you went.
It's right there in bold You can and you are arguing that clearly it says you can't.
You run around the corner and hide. They know where you went, that's not the same as knowing when or how you'll attack.
going further to quote the beta
Against most creatures,finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth.
Sorry I'm reading the same thing you are and getting a different interpretation from it.
We aren't talking about hiding in full sight:
Note the part where they say, "Go behind a corner or other form of concealment"
Which is what is needed to do a hide check. Since you made the hide check (as another move action) you are now hidden unless they manage to get line of sight to you again (if you are behind something they cannot see you with normal sight) then make a spot check, or you do something to specifically draw their attention (i.e. attack them).
You guys really need to read the rules.. It is clear as day on this..
Note: as I have said, if you don't like the rules though, change them.
or as you could say, "I need read your entire statement, as the rules state you can hide when you move into concealment, and you have said if you run around a corner or do something of similar nature -- which is of course exactly what the rules state you can do."
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Lastknight, I think we're talking about 3.5, at least I was. You seem to be talking about Pathfinder. Perhaps that is at least a partial source of the confusion?
I was expanding by adding the beta, but he was quoting the SRD and I quoted his quote. In both 3.5 and pathfinder this is something you can do by my interpretation. No confusion and if using beta to extrapolate confused some, I'm sorry.
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I agree that the RAW allow you to duck around a corner, hide, then return to sneak attack.
The key to denying the dex bonus is that you are once again unseen, even though the foe knows that you are in the general area.
The phrase about knowing where you went would apply if the foe wanted to pursue, or if you could only come back in a limited space they would know which square to attack if you were hidden.
It's still a sub-optimal tactic, due to the number of actions it takes to get 1 sneak attack. Tumble/Melee flanking works much better.
Until you get Improved Invisibility.
Even after Improved Invisibility (IMO) since Invisibility Purge shows up about the same time, and See Invisibility isn't fooled by Improved Invisibility either (true seeing is coming up soon too).
If there isn't something blocking him from doing so a foe that knows where you are (say after you go around a corner) could decide to throw a flask of alchemist fire around the corner and get you even though he can't see you.
I don't think you should be allowed to simply run around a corner and gain sneak attack as a result. Remember, sneak attack should only be gained whilst an opponent is flat-footed or otherwise denied their dexterity,the rogue has some form of concealment or if flanked. Running around a corner isn't going to provide any of these.
The opponent will still be aware of an immediate threat, so that rules out being flat-footed.
Being around the corner might provide cover, but not concealment, even then, the target would gain similer concealment, meaning sneak attack is still not applicable.
And doing this definately doesn't flank the target.
I would class running around a corner like that an attempted exploit of the rules and it's wording. The point of sneak attack is to give rogues the edge when they strike first, strike an unaware foe, or when they flank in combat, not to make them one trick ponies whose idea of battle straegy is "I'll run around the corner, then move around again and strike you!"
I don't think you should be allowed to simply run around a corner and gain sneak attack as a result. Remember, sneak attack should only be gained whilst an opponent is flat-footed or otherwise denied their dexterity,the rogue has some form of concealment or if flanked. Running around a corner isn't going to provide any of these.
The opponent will still be aware of an immediate threat, so that rules out being flat-footed.
Being around the corner might provide cover, but not concealment, even then, the target would gain similer concealment, meaning sneak attack is still not applicable.
And doing this definately doesn't flank the target.
I would class running around a corner like that an attempted exploit of the rules and it's wording. The point of sneak attack is to give rogues the edge when they strike first, strike an unaware foe, or when they flank in combat, not to make them one trick ponies whose idea of battle straegy is "I'll run around the corner, then move around again and strike you!"
1 part missing:
In order to hide you have to "hide" which is a move action. So it would be "Move behind concealment" (move action) "Hide" (move action) next round "attack".
UNLESS
The character in question has a quickened scorching ray spell or something of the like, in which case he could go ... Quicken Scorching Ray (swift action).
With this note, now you have basically spent one full round doing nothing but getting into position in order to sneak attack on the next round.
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1 part missing:In order to hide you have to "hide" which is a move action. So it would be "Move behind concealment" (move action) "Hide" (move action) next round "attack".
UNLESS
The character in question has a quickened scorching ray spell or something of the like, in which case he could go ... Quicken Scorching Ray (swift action).
With this note, now you have basically spent one full round doing nothing but getting into position in order to sneak attack on the next round.
It's even worse, because it's move, hide, move to where you can attack without being spotted, attack. Bleh.. way to much work to get one sneak attack, but possible, I believe.
Bottom line, I agree with the OP's ruling on ranged flanking, etc.
Oh I agree it's by no means optimal -- merely feasible.
My only other thought on the whole thing is that if the character wants to stay hidden he could snipe from hiding instead, only getting one attack a round and then using a stealth check with a -10 penalty to stay hidden.
Remember that being able to sneak attack at range already has a few advantages.
1st turn of combat, if the rogue goes first thats potentially a full-around attack of sneak attacks straight from the get-go. A melee rogue would need to move in, and even then, an ally would need to join as well in subsequent rounds if you want to get more than one attack off.
Not to mention that it's often forgotten that unless a foes vitals as in reach, you can't sneak attack, which makes ranged weapons better if you're trying to sneak attack somthing like a dragon or tarrasque.
Generally if you can hit a foe it's vitals are within reach... Kraken maybe one time I could see it not happening...
And at the start of combat is only workable if you have higher initiative, otherwise it's just another full attack, any other time melee has the higher hand since you can almost always get a flanking solution to the problem, and you can only feint in melee.
Hiding is part of a move action, not a move in and of itself. However, if your moving faster than half speed you take a penalty. So the way it happens is:
PCs go into a large room from the hallway adjacent to it. Combat begins with room occupants. Rogue shoots an opponent with lower initiative, gains sneak attack because opponent is flat footed. Enemies counter, rogue takes some damage and decides he doesn't like being in the thick of things. Rogue backs out of room through the door they came in and steps into the hallway, then steps to the side to break line of sight with the enemy (Move at half speed, gain total cover, hide check at no penalty as part of half-speed move). On his next turn, he pops out with a five foot step and takes a shot at an enemy in the room. If the enemy's spot check doesn't beat his hide check, the enemy get sneak attacked (assuming distance conditions and the like are favorable).
Shot on the Run is the primary feat for ranged sneak attackers, as it allows them to move from cover, shoot, and then move back into cover.
Is this as effecient as taking a full attack two weapon fighting in a flanking position? Damage wise, no. Your getting at best 1 attack, while the melee character can get up to 7 if hasted. However, you have cover after your shots, and don't have to worry about terrain or other enemies. I've seen many fireballs avoided by the cover of hiding behind a tree while setting up for a sneak attack.
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If I may repeat myself, it is not a -10 penalty for sniping, it is a -20
If you’ve already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again. You take a –20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot.
Whenever you run around the corner, you make a hide check. Next round, you attack from hiding, denying him his dexterity bonus to armor class if he fails his spot check vs your hide check, thereby allowing you to gain extra damage from sneak attack. You can then attempt to hide immediately, taking a -20 penalty to your hide check. If he still fails his spot check, you are still considered hidden and can snipe again next turn
If I may repeat myself, it is not a -10 penalty for sniping, it is a -20
If you’ve already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again. You take a –20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot.Whenever you run around the corner, you make a hide check. Next round, you attack from hiding, denying him his dexterity bonus to armor class if he fails his spot check vs your hide check, thereby allowing you to gain extra damage from sneak attack. You can then attempt to hide immediately, taking a -20 penalty to your hide check. If he still fails his spot check, you are still considered hidden and can snipe again next turn
Correct, edit above as noted here... probably should get skill focus and some stealth boosting items if you are going to try this...
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We aren't talking about hiding in full sight:
Note the part where they say, "Go behind a corner or other form of concealment"
Which is what is needed to do a hide check. Since you made the hide check (as another move action) you are now hidden unless they manage to get line of sight to you again (if you are behind something they cannot see you with normal sight) then make a spot check, or you do something to specifically draw their attention (i.e. attack them).
or as you could say, "I need read your entire statement, as the rules state you can hide when you move into concealment, and you have said if you run around a corner or do something of similar nature -- which is of course exactly what the rules state you can do."
You guys really need to read the rules.. It is clear as day on this..
Note: as I have said, if you don't like the rules though, change them.
You are still wrong... Yes we are talking about hiding....while in full site.. Read this again..
If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide. You can run around a corner or behind cover so that you’re out of sight and then hide, but the others then know at least where you went.
If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check; see below), though, you can attempt to hide. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Hide check if you can get to a hiding place of some kind. (As a general guideline, the hiding place has to be within 1 foot per rank you have in Hide.) This check, however, is made at a -10 penalty because you have to move fast.
Sniping
If you’ve already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again. You take a -20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot.
Creating a Diversion to Hide
You can use Bluff to help you hide. A successful Bluff check can give you the momentary diversion you need to attempt a Hide check while people are aware of you.
It even says, you can't hide while being observed... quite plain language...It does say you can go around a corner and hide, but he knows you are there... so you are not really hiding.. you just have cover.. then it says to hide while being observed, you ned to make a bluf check to distract him so you can jump behind something to hide.. I.e. a corner..
Just jumping around a corner while being observed, is not hiding, he knows you are there, so he will not lose his dex..from him to lose his dex he needs to be not aware of you, if you don't bluff first he is still aware of where you are even if he can't see you.
OIfcourse if you would use that time whil behind the corner to sneak out of sight to come at him from another direction, that he would not expect, then I would say he loses his dex.
We aren't talking about hiding in full sight:
Note the part where they say, "Go behind a corner or other form of concealment"
Which is what is needed to do a hide check. Since you made the hide check (as another move action) you are now hidden unless they manage to get line of sight to you again (if you are behind something they cannot see you with normal sight) then make a spot check, or you do something to specifically draw their attention (i.e. attack them).
or as you could say, "I need read your entire statement, as the rules state you can hide when you move into concealment, and you have said if you run around a corner or do something of similar nature -- which is of course exactly what the rules state you can do."
You guys really need to read the rules.. It is clear as day on this..
Note: as I have said, if you don't like the rules though, change them.You are still wrong... Yes we are talking about hiding....while in full site.. Read this again..
If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide. You can run around a corner or behind cover so that you’re out of sight and then hide, but the others then know at least where you went.
If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check; see below), though, you can attempt to hide. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Hide check if you can get to a hiding place of some kind. (As a general guideline, the hiding place has to be within 1 foot per rank you have in Hide.) This check, however, is made at a -10 penalty because you have to move fast.
Which is exactly what everyone above has suggested doing (except your general rule would be better stated as "My house rule is...").
I mentioned Sniping as an alternate possible means to hiding and attacking with a ranged weapon, because that is what it is. However sniping couldn't be done on the same round that you move and hide since sniping itself requires a move action.
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stuff to long to quote
I agree on the sniping... But You guys still keep just skimming over 2 parts of what I am saying..
1. You can't hide while being observed..If you are in combat you are being oobserved..
If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide. You can run around a corner or behind cover so that you’re out of sight and then hide, but the others then know at least where you went.
2. yes you can run a round a corner to hide, so he does not see you, but since he is still aware of you he does not lose his dex, therefore you can't sneak attack
3. To hide while being observed, as it states in the RAW you need to bluff, you guys just skip ovr that part.. though it states it in the RAW.
If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check; see below), though, you can attempt to hide. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Hide check if you can get to a hiding place of some kind. (As a general guideline, the hiding place has to be within 1 foot per rank you have in Hide.) This check, however, is made at a -10 penalty because you have to move fast.
Creating a Diversion to Hide
You can use Bluff to help you hide. A successful Bluff check can give you the momentary diversion you need to attempt a Hide check while people are aware of you.
All the rest of what you are saying is true..
I am not house ruling anything. I am saying what exactly it says in the rules.. If you did not need to bluff to hide behind something while being observed, the RAW would not even mention Bluff, But that is exactly what the RAW says. To Hide behind something I.e. a corner, while being observed, first you need to bluff.
Dragonmoon -
Sorry, buddy -but you are wrong here. You keep deferring to the quote about the defender "knowing where you are" but as everyone else has pointed out, "knowing" where someone is isn't the qualifier for whether they lose their dex bonus against a hiding rogue. Those conditions are clearly defined under hiding and cover, and the sentence you keep quoting, while admittedly confusing, does not disqualify sneak attacks after hiding around a corner (which is full cover). The above scenarios are absolutely correct. I hope you aren't a rogue player, because you've been stabbing yourself in the back for a few years. =-)
To further clarify -if you run around a corner and hide YOU AREN'T BEING OBSERVED. You CAN'T be observed because you are hiding behind full cover. They may well know your general location ("he went that way!"), but they can't see you because you are now successfully hiding (with the proper opposed checks, of course).
With all due respect, of course -I love a good rules debate and see what you're getting at, but there is way too much clarifying information in the WoTC rules archives and various Dragon articles to back you up -I play rogues almost exclusively and design in the biz, so we make sure to get it right.
If you want Skip Williams to clarify it again, submit a question to his column on Kobold Quarterly. I promise you'll find that Black Bard's scenario is the correct one...
Fleece
You might want to consider acquiring the Dark creature template from Tome of Magic. It gives a +8 to Hide, +6 to Move Silently, Darkvision 60 feet, Superior Lowlight Vision, +10 to Speed, Cold Resistance 10, and Hide in Plain Sight. All for +1 level adjustment. There are even magic items that let you temporarily acquire this Template.
I'm currently playing a 3rd level Pathfinderized Dark Whisper Gnome (RoS) Ninja (level equivalent 4). I have +21 to Stealth (Hide & Move Silently)!!! :-O
(The DM and I decided that the Pathfinderized version gave an average of +7 racial bonus to Stealth, and that it overlapped, and did not stack with, the Whisper Gnome's +4 racial bonus to Hide & Move Silently (Stealth).
3 ranks + 3 for class skill + 4 for size + 7 for race/template + 4 for Dex = +21 Stealth.....with Hide in Plain Sight.
And if that doesn't work, I have a few uses of Swift Invisiblity too! (Ghost Step)
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Dragonmoon -
Sorry, buddy -but you are wrong here. You keep deferring to the quote about the defender "knowing where you are" but as everyone else has pointed out, "knowing" where someone is isn't the qualifier for whether they lose their dex bonus against a hiding rogue. Those conditions are clearly defined under hiding and cover, and the sentence you keep quoting, while admittedly confusing, does not disqualify sneak attacks after hiding around a corner (which is full cover). The above scenarios are absolutely correct. I hope you aren't a rogue player, because you've been stabbing yourself in the back for a few years. =-)
To further clarify -if you run around a corner and hide YOU AREN'T BEING OBSERVED. You CAN'T be observed because you are hiding behind full cover. They may well know your general location ("he went that way!"), but they can't see you because you are now successfully hiding (with the proper opposed checks, of course).
With all due respect, of course -I love a good rules debate and see what you're getting at, but there is way too much clarifying information in the WoTC rules archives and various Dragon articles to back you up -I play rogues almost exclusively and design in the biz, so we make sure to get it right.
If you want Skip Williams to clarify it again, submit a question to his column on Kobold Quarterly. I promise you'll find that Black Bard's scenario is the correct one...
Fleece
Looking through the SRD I can't find a rule that specifies this either way.. Though I still feel I have the stronger argument because TO first get behind the object to hide you need to make a Bluff check not to be notice doing it.
I am trying to look through the SRD specifying conditions that make you lose your Dex bonus... To me the bad guy knowing you are there behind that corner or Knocked over table, or big box makes him aware enough not to lose his dex bonus since he knows where you are going to attack from and can expect it. But The SRD as far as I can tell so far does not fully clarify that. I can't get to the FAQ at this time because it is blocked at work, but I am going to look and see if it was brought up in that.
Allot of my point comes from the idea that if what you guys where saying was true, they would not put that whole bluff part in hiding.
To me this is how I see it.
1. You are being observed in combat
2. You want to get behind that corner/box/knocked over table to get a sneak attack off
3. All the way there you are observed getting that 'concealment'
4. To hide behind that 'concealment' as it says in the RAW you need to make a bluff check, otherwise he knows you are there and can expect your attack and still have his dex bonus.
5. You make a bluff check to distract him and quickly hide without his notice
6. Now that he has no idea where your attack is coming from your attack gets your sneak attack off and quickly hide again with sniping.
7. Continue
The part that is in dispute is my bolded part, especially the last part. Is knowing where you are even if he can't see you enough not to lose his dex bonus?
Looking closely at the SRD I can't find it either way.
Being at work now I don't have the resources to look into it more closely. So I won't be able to go into this more for another 12 hours.
If someone has something that shows that what you guys say is indisputable, please either link it or quote it here.
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Someone just humor him and say that it requires a bluff check, geeze. Any respectable rogue will have that nearly as high as his hide check, anyways. And I know that by the rules that is the way to do it, I still can't imagine how that would realistically work. (refers to my original post) Assuming you are 20-30ft away and someone is in melee with the sneak-attackee, what would that bluff check consist of doing?
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Someone just humor him and say that it requires a bluff check, geeze. Any respectable rogue will have that nearly as high as his hide check, anyways. And I know that by the rules that is the way to do it, I still can't imagine how that would realistically work. (refers to my original post) Assuming you are 20-30ft away and someone is in melee with the sneak-attackee, what would that bluff check consist of doing?
The difference between what They seem to think the way it works and what I seem to think the way it works and what it would take is this.
Them:
1 Round
Move Behind Corner: Move Action
Hide: Part of that Move Action
Attack: Standard action with Sneack Attack
*Sniping changes things, you can't attack this round if you are sniping because sniping is another move action
Me:
1 Round
Bluff Check to Distract: Standard Action
Move Behind Corner: Move Action
With Mine you can't start attacking until the next round.
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Actually, sniping is not another move action. That is why it is at -20 penalty, it allows you to make an immediate hide attempt to stay hidden
Here you go.
Sniping
If you’ve already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again. You take a -20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot.
Action
Usually none. Normally, you make a Hide check as part of movement, so it doesn’t take a separate action. However, hiding immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.
Sniping is a move action.
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otherwise he knows you are there and can expect your attack and still have his dex bonus.
Show me where it says in the part you quoted that he will still have his dex bonus. It doesn't, you're infering it that way.
Look reading it I can see your argument, but I don't think anyone here has the right to definitively say anyone is wrong because clearly it's a poorly worded section. I see where you get your interpretation and I see where I get mine, and its fine to go with either one barring an official ruling which no one has produced, it's going to be up for discussion.