So, what really happens when you loose control over undead you previously commanded? I am planning an adventure involving a necromancers who has animated the long- and recently-dead bodies of priests and monks at a monastery, mainly just as skeletons and zombies (since it's a low-level adventure). However, in order to make the adventure what I want, I need more skeletons and zombies than what the necromancer can safely control.
I'm a little pressed for time at the moment, but if I remember correctly, mindless undead who pass beyond control continue to follow out the last orders they were given. So, if the necromancer told them "stand here and attack anything except me," would they continue to do that after he lost control? I.e., could he still safely pass by them, with the only real downside to having lost control being that he can't issue new orders? Or would the emancipated undead attack their former master and animator? Ultimately, it doesn't matter in this case because the necromancer in question will have access to hide from undead; but that only circumvents the question without providing the answer I desire!
Thoughts?
I would think that mindless undead would just revert to their standard operating procedures once released from control.
So, they'll eat your brains. And your little dog's, too!
(Assuming the necromancer in question has a little dog for his familiar.)
I would think that mindless undead would just revert to their standard operating procedures once released from control.
So, they'll eat your brains. And your little dog's, too!
(Assuming the necromancer in question has a little dog for his familiar.)
But if they're elsewhere, then they'll eat the party's brains. And their little dogs', too!
Thanks all. I was thinking along those lines, but I am continually in pursuit of a rules-legal way to make an NPC necromancer that can actually have a sizeable undead force at his command. Even with items which can bring the 4 x caster level HD limit up to 8 x caster level, that's still just 160 human skeletons even for a 20th level archmage necromancer (more for a cleric, but still not what I'd call an army). I know the typical remedy is to have clusters of necromancers and underling necromancers, each with a pool of undead, which can work for the super high-level baddies; but for just a BBEG in a lower-level adventure, it's not so feasible (not that I'm going for a huge undead army, but enough to actually flesh out an adventure, which one necromancer's HD allotment cannot do).
Oh well, the undead will just lurk around the upper levels uncontrolled, and I'll explain the necromancers comings and goings with the aforementioned hide from undead. The result is the same from the PCs' perspectives: lots of skeletons and zombies to bash. Thanks!
I forgot to post here yesterday, just to say, this definitely won "Best New Thread Title of the Day."
**drunk undead lift skin up to expose guts**
I figure if a few undead were commanded to "go east and attack the villagers" the non-commanded undead milling around with them might go just to see what's what....or to just do what the rest of the crowd was doing. Maybe some undead could be commanded to shepherd the other undead? Do you have any undead corgis?
|
Would it be too against the NPC character concept to give him the Leadership feat and a cohort who also has animate dead and thus has more skelitons and zombies to create?!
You could make the cohort undead, perhaps, or have an undead-like template or PrC -- certainly there were a couple templates or PrCs that you liked that you couldn't fit into the main NPC's build?
-W. E. Ray
By the way, Saern,
Thanks all. I was thinking along those lines, but I am continually in pursuit of a rules-legal way to make an NPC necromancer that can actually have a sizeable undead force at his command. Even with items which can bring the 4 x caster level HD limit up to 8 x caster level, that's still just 160 human skeletons even for a 20th level archmage necromancer (more for a cleric, but still not what I'd call an army). I know the typical remedy is to have clusters of necromancers and underling necromancers, each with a pool of undead, which can work for the super high-level baddies; but for just a BBEG in a lower-level adventure, it's not so feasible (not that I'm going for a huge undead army, but enough to actually flesh out an adventure, which one necromancer's HD allotment cannot do).
Oh well, the undead will just lurk around the upper levels uncontrolled, and I'll explain the necromancers comings and goings with the aforementioned hide from undead. The result is the same from the PCs' perspectives: lots of skeletons and zombies to bash. Thanks!
You want Undead Leadership from Libris Mortis. This will allow you to gain an undead cohort and followers outside of the normal limit.
You can also look at Fell Animate from that same book. It raises the level of the spell by 3, but if you kill a creature outright, it raises as a zombie that you can control. It'll save you a bundle on spell components.
You can also look at the Dread Necromancer base class from Heroes of Horror. This is focused on becoming the controller of undead and will (at 8th level) change the number of undead that you can control from 4/lvl to (4+CHA)/lvl.
Heroes of Horror also has the Corpsecrafter feats that improve the undead that you are controlling.
Would it be too against the NPC character concept to give him the Leadership feat and a cohort who also has animate dead and thus has more skelitons and zombies to create?!
You could make the cohort undead, perhaps, or have an undead-like template or PrC -- certainly there were a couple templates or PrCs that you liked that you couldn't fit into the main NPC's build?
-W. E. Ray
By the way, Saern, ** spoiler omitted **
I've actually got quite a few splat books: the Complete Warrior, Arcane, Divine, Adventurer, and Mage are all on my shelf (I don't know if that's most of them or not; I would hope so), as well as the Libris Mortis. But you are right, I have a strong preference for the core three books. I find that I can do more, and my imagination feels freer and more active, working within the basic frameworks they provide rather than resorting to the umpteen billion supplemental rules, exceptions, etc., etc., in supplements. By the end of 3.x, I had developed a love/hate relationship with supplements. I loved to see all the innovative new ideas and directions in game design and balance and such; but hated most of the content in said books. The end of 3.x was a big relief in a way, and Pathfinder's heavy focus on setting rather than mechanical supplements pleases me to no end (though I don't run Golarion, I can actually mine ideas out of setting books). It also helps that I'm DMing for relatively new players who have no interest in buying the supplements yet, so everything pretty much comes out of those essential three.
That being said, I really do like Undead Leadership, and may well consider giving the NPC that feat. Like I said, it's a low-level adventure, and I don't want necessarily an undead army, but enough undead animated by this necromancer to give the party plenty of smashing. From the necromancer's perspective, all he needs the undead for is to keep out the gnoll tribe that's taken over the region while he delves the monastery ruins for the secret documents of its former abbott.
Maybe you can have the zombies spawn other zombies, like in the Resident Evil movies. Also, isn't there a spell-stitched template that gives undead some spells? Maybe have spell-stitched zombies that raise other zombies? It might be creepy to see a cabal of zombies mumbling an ancient ceremony they're incapable of understanding, yet capable of performing.
|
I have an idea: Wand of Control Undead. It's 1 day/level, so even though he may not be able to control a large amount of Undead by virtue of level, he could have a giant collection of zombies and skeletons in waiting for him to burn out a few Wands of Control Undead in anticipation for his next assault. Mindless undead don't even get a saving throw, if memory serves.
|
|
2nd, actually. Really useful low-level spell
EDIT: Sorry, Command Undead.
Command Undead
Necromancy
Level: Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets: One undead creature
Duration: One day/level
Saving Throw: Will negates; see text
Spell Resistance: YesThis spell allows you some degree of control over an undead creature. Assuming the subject is intelligent, it perceives your words and actions in the most favorable way (treat its attitude as friendly). It will not attack you while the spell lasts. You can try to give the subject orders, but you must win an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn’t ordinarily do. (Retries are not allowed.) An intelligent commanded undead never obeys suicidal or obviously harmful orders, but it might be convinced that something very dangerous is worth doing.
A nonintelligent undead creature gets no saving throw against this spell. When you control a mindless being, you can communicate only basic commands, such as “come here,” “go there,” “fight,” “stand still,” and so on. Nonintelligent undead won’t resist suicidal or obviously harmful orders.
Any act by you or your apparent allies that threatens the commanded undead (regardless of its Intelligence) breaks the spell.
Your commands are not telepathic. The undead creature must be able to hear you.
Material ComponentA shred of raw meat and a splinter of bone.
Although in all honesty Command Undead seems like the much more useful spell, even though Control Undead is 7th level
2nd, actually. Really useful low-level spell
EDIT: Sorry, Command Undead.
** spoiler omitted **Although in all honesty Command Undead seems like the much more useful spell, even though Control Undead is 7th level
My thoughts, exactly. I think I'll overcome some of the problem by bulking up the encounters with gnolls as the party gets to the monastery, then have low-level undead, and finally the necromancer (who, out of suprise and unpreparedness, dimension doors away) leave behind a bigger undead he commands as the adventure's BBEG.
Regarding differences between the homebrew and Golarion,
What? Hey! Where are the drunk zombie chicks dancing naked with each other? What kind of "gone wild" thread is this? Talk about false advertising!
**drunk undead lift skin up to expose guts**
Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
|
Little late on the draw, but how about this:
1. Necromancer creates his maximum number of low level undead that he can control.
2. Necromancer locks all undead on the top level of his lair, and creates his maximum number of undead again - but this time, they are of a stronger stock (more HD, more intelligent)
3. The first batch of undead are no longer under his control, but he orders those that ARE under his control to round up X undead and form them into units.
This way, the Necromancer controls the higher level undead, and they command the low level minions. Sure, the original batch aren't really under the control of the Necromancer anymore, but with the orders given to the higher level undead, it wouldn't be too hard to determine that the original batch could be cowed into obeying the orders from the higher powered undead.
It's not strictly by the rules, and there are some holes to the idea (why would a mindless zombie listen to another undead creature), but it's also relatively believeable from a storytelling perspective.
I have used the following "devices" in the past:
1) Undead are always created in desecrated, unhallowed locations that include an altar;
2) Minor priests/necromancers "cede" their controllable HD to their master via some arcane or divine ritual unknown to the PCs (and conveniently for the DM not written down anywhere in the adventure), allowing a single high priest or chief witch-doctor to control hordes of undead minions;
3) There's always the magic-item/artifact route. Could be charged so that it is pretty burned out by the time the PCs get to it. You could also have an Evil, Intelligent magic items that controls its own undead, but has them obey the commands of the items possessor so long as these orders comply with the item's own purposes.
I like these. I also like rituals. The BoVD lists a fairly extensive number of benefits which one can gain through blood sacrifices. That's always stuck with me. Anytime I have an evil NPC and desire he should have an ability technically not within the rules, or not available at his level, I typically use blood rituals as an excuse. It accomplishes the same effect as an artifact without the issue of having a phyiscal item which the party might claim.
I think rituals also provide a feel and texture for the adventures and the world which artifacts don't. Artitfacts always reflect back on some more powerful, and often long-gone, creator, which becomes cliche if the plot device is used too much (and it typically is). It also implies the modern world is somehow lessened and degraded, and leaves "only" the "mere" spellcasting possibilities in the PHB. Rituals, on the other hand, embody magic worked here and now, power still known to the world. It makes a statement both about the type of world the PCs are in and makes a statement about magic in that world; namely, that there is still power and high magic present in the world, and it is quite possible for magic to be grander and greater than what is allowed under the norms assumed in the rulebooks.
1. Necromancer creates his maximum number of low level undead that he can control.
2. Necromancer locks all undead on the top level of his lair, and creates his maximum number of undead again - but this time, they are of a stronger stock (more HD, more intelligent)
3. The first batch of undead are no longer under his control, but he orders those that ARE under his control to round up X undead and form them into units.
This way, the Necromancer controls the higher level undead, and they command the low level minions. Sure, the original batch aren't really under the control of the Necromancer anymore, but with the orders given to the higher level undead, it wouldn't be too hard to determine that the original batch could be cowed into obeying the orders from the higher powered undead.
It's not strictly by the rules, and there are some holes to the idea (why would a mindless zombie listen to another undead creature), but it's also relatively believeable from a storytelling perspective.
I like this, too. I figure if skeletons, despite their mindlessness, are capable of using weapons and armor (such as the standard human skeleton provided in the MM), they can be controlled by their greater and more intelligent kin.