PH3: Hybrid Characters

[Scott Betts]

lastknightleft wrote:

Scott Betts wrote:

lastknightleft wrote:

Scott Betts wrote:

A hybrid wizard/invoker with druid multiclass feats is totally possible, once the invoker and druid hybrid classes are published.

I thought the druid came out with the PHBII and an invoker is just a wizard path isn't it? how come he can't do it now?

Invoker is a totally separate class from Wizard. Both the Druid and Invoker classes were released in the PHB2, but the hybrid versions of those classes were not published in the hybrid classes playtest. I should have said that you'd need to wait for the Invoker hybrid class; you don't really need to wait for the Druid hybrid class, since you'd just be taking multiclass feats (which you can already do), but I have a feeling the hybrid classes for Druids and Invokers will be published at the same time.

Oh hybrids have to be individually published? I thought they were just a template like set of guidlines that you could use to mix and match any core class, granted some won't mesh that well etc, but I don't have insider so I can't actually see the rules. So each class gets a hybrid write up you use and then you just throw together two hybrid write ups?

Yep, each class gets its own hybrid write-up. They're short; all you need to put in there is the class's base statistics (HP per level, surges, proficiencies, skills, etc.) and which class feature they receive. A lot of it is pretty straightforward and unsurprising. You can usually guess what the hybrid class will look like just by looking at the normal class write-up.

[Stefan Hill]

I haven't seen anything about this other than the posts here so please excuse any ignorant questions.

(1) Will all permutations be possible for the hybrid classes?

(2) Will this list be the only hybrid classes available, or will there be guidelines to make anything?

(3) Will they make "single classes" a rarity in a party due to just being a better option for a player?

Thanks,
S.

[Arcmagik]

From what I have read and what I have heard from people that have put together hybrid classes the system is balanced against the number class system.

You can consider each Hybrid class to be a half-class and when you put them together you get the same benefits as a character with a single class therefore not making them overpowered.

[Blazej]

Stefan Hill wrote:

I haven't seen anything about this other than the posts here so please excuse any ignorant questions.

(1) Will all permutations be possible for the hybrid classes?

(2) Will this list be the only hybrid classes available, or will there be guidelines to make anything?

(3) Will they make "single classes" a rarity in a party due to just being a better option for a player?

Thanks,
S.

This is just information I gathered from this thread and other sources, and it can clearly change before it's final release, but I think the answers are:

1: Yes. You can combine any of the classes on the hybrid list with one another. There is nothing that says anything like, "You can't make a rogue/cleric hybrid."

2: I suspect that they will only have the list for available hybrid classes, and that the only guidelines you would have for hybrid-izing other classes would be to look at what they did with the hybrid classes they offered.

3: I believe that they will be mostly balanced against the existing classes, but that some players will favor them greatly for the increased options they desire.

[David Marks]

Stefan Hill wrote:

I haven't seen anything about this other than the posts here so please excuse any ignorant questions.

(1) Will all permutations be possible for the hybrid classes?

(2) Will this list be the only hybrid classes available, or will there be guidelines to make anything?

(3) Will they make "single classes" a rarity in a party due to just being a better option for a player?

Thanks,
S.

All permutations are possible, but several probably won't work out that well. There is a lot of potential here for extreme cases of MAD (a Starlock/Cleric would just be insane, frex, needing Con/Cha/Wis/Str/Int) and depending on the classes chosen the way armor and weapon profs carry between the hybrid classes could really cripple you. There is definitely more risk of your hybrid-ized character being underpowered than there is of him being overpowered (although as others have mentioned, several fairly decent builds have already been discovered; they are by far the exception though, not the rule).

I expect if this system goes forward we'll see a hybrid writeup for each class, much like each class generally gets introduced with a multiclass feat for them. I've seen some complain that this will take up way too much space, although really they could always just add a few tags to a new class's writeup to signify what a hybrid version gets (ie, indicate a gained class feature with a [hybrid] tag or some such, and include text describing the differences, if any, between the versions).

[Matthew Koelbl]

Stefan Hill wrote:

I haven't seen anything about this other than the posts here so please excuse any ignorant questions.

(1) Will all permutations be possible for the hybrid classes?

(2) Will this list be the only hybrid classes available, or will there be guidelines to make anything?

(3) Will they make "single classes" a rarity in a party due to just being a better option for a player?

Just to confirm what others have large said:

1) You can combine any two hybrid classes. Some will obviously have more synergy than others, but I'm pretty sure any combination is viable. In general, you'll want to have at least some overlap of key stats, as that is what really will determine how effective you can be.

2) The current list is of the PHB classes, and will be in the PHB3. I suspect the PHB3 will also have the hybrid classes for all other classes released up to that point. But they have not yet said for sure either way - the product is still quite a ways out. Right now they are focused on making sure this system simply works.

I doubt they will offer any formula for it (since the entire point is that it does require some careful balancing), but given people have already come up with ideas for PHB2 class hybrids, I suspect anyone can have a decent go at it just by copying how they seem to have made their choices.

3) I highly doubt this. The hybrid classes offer some unique things, but also miss out of quite a few key abilities. I suspect they will mainly be used when a character concept demands it, rather than for actual optimization. Assuming they can make sure the final result is balanced - but as long as they clarify a couple elements, I think that is a likely result.

It does add versatility to a character, but at the cost of limiting their focus. Sure, it is nice that your Striker gets to switch to Defending for a couple rounds each fight - but if that means the character has to spend a few rounds Defending (or not be able to use all of their Encounter/Daily powers), that means it isn't a good option at all for a character that really wants to be a Striker all the time. Multi-classing becomes much more appealing, to let them pick up a small bit of Defending each fight without losing out on their main role.

On the other hand, for the character that does want to spend the fight half in one role and half in another, it is a useful build. I suspect hybrid characters will be possible for filling out a party that is already pretty balanced, since they often won't be able to completely fill a role by themselves - similar to how some classes were in 3rd Edition, from my experience (Bard and Monk, for example.) It could be great to have a Bard if you already had a Fighter, a Rogue, a Cleric and a Wizard, but you often wouldn't want the Bard to take their place in a smaller party. I don't think Hybrids will be quite that extreme, but will have a similar general principle of use.

[Scott Betts]

Stefan Hill wrote:

I haven't seen anything about this other than the posts here so please excuse any ignorant questions.

(1) Will all permutations be possible for the hybrid classes?

(2) Will this list be the only hybrid classes available, or will there be guidelines to make anything?

(3) Will they make "single classes" a rarity in a party due to just being a better option for a player?

Thanks,
S.

1) Yes, that appears to be the plan.

2) It looks like they'll be publishing a hybrid class write-up for each class that is released. They can probably afford to tack a hybrid class write-up at the end of each class's description in future books, since they probably won't take up more than half a page each. There are already some guidelines on how hybrid classes are created, but it still involves a bit of guesswork (mostly to figure out which class feature hybrid classes should get).

3) Nope, the general consensus is that hybrid classes cannot replace the party's need for a fully-fledged leader/defender/striker/whatever. They are useful fifth-party-member characters if built properly, though.

[Stefan Hill]

That sound good then. Just I remember in 3rd ed. my players going through a period of making "multi-classed" characters but they were never really able to function at the level they should by splitting their class levels.

This sounds like a great idea for those who want something different but don't basically want to suck compared to the straight classed people - but if what I read about the general idea is it won't make the straight classes wonder why they bothered being straight classes.

I do see that an extreme amount of play testing should be done, as I also agree this system could be horribly abused if badly implemented.

Thanks for the comments,
S.

[Benchak the Nightstalker]

Another thing I noticed, if a class normally gives 5 hp/level, it's hybrid entry halves that, and rounds down to 2.

So if you play a Rogue, you get 5hp/level
If you play a Ranger, you get 5hp/level
But if you play a Rogue/Ranger hybrid? 4hp/level.

[Ken Marable]

Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:

Another thing I noticed, if a class normally gives 5 hp/level, it's hybrid entry halves that, and rounds down to 2.

So if you play a Rogue, you get 5hp/level
If you play a Ranger, you get 5hp/level
But if you play a Rogue/Ranger hybrid? 4hp/level.

Yeah, I'm not a big fan of that and have houseruled that you get half the hp/level and then round down the total. I think there are enough other balancing factors that more sensible hit points is fine.

[Matthew Koelbl]

Ken Marable wrote:

Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:

Another thing I noticed, if a class normally gives 5 hp/level, it's hybrid entry halves that, and rounds down to 2.

So if you play a Rogue, you get 5hp/level
If you play a Ranger, you get 5hp/level
But if you play a Rogue/Ranger hybrid? 4hp/level.

Yeah, I'm not a big fan of that and have houseruled that you get half the hp/level and then round down the total. I think there are enough other balancing factors that more sensible hit points is fine.

Yeah, I'm not sure if it is an intentional balancing factor, or just that they couldn't come up with a better formula while still avoiding fractions.

I've seen enough decent suggestions made regarding it that it will hopefully be fixed in the final product.

[FabesMinis]

I'm having fun at the moment converting characters from 3.x into 4E using these rules e.g. an Oriental Adventures Shaman has become a Hybrid Beastmaster Ranger/Cleric.