I've read a few posts about 4e and one of the things that keeps cropping up as an "issue" is that of minions.
Then I watched Fellowship of the Ring with my daughter for the first time (hers not mine - she loved it). I realised that the end fight (after Boromir tries to take the ring) is an awesome minion fight, and totally the way I envision it happening in game.
I heartily recommend watching it if you are having difficulty with the concept of minions.
Are there any other scenes from films that represent awesome fights vs hordes of minions that people would recommend?
What was that movie where the hero just pointed his finger at the minions like a gun and they all fell down?
THAT'S what minion rules remind me of. I'd rather think Boromir really was that bad ass. Uruk were supposed to be elite, after all...
Aragorn's sequence with the salute is probably the best example. Achilles beach scene in Troy.
I'd rather think Boromir really was that bad ass. Uruk were supposed to be elite, after all...
He was that bad ass. Hence the elite fighting Uruk-Hai getting bumped down to minion. Against anyone less badass, they would have been "normals".
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I'd rather think Boromir really was that bad ass. Uruk were supposed to be elite, after all...He was that bad ass. Hence the elite fighting Uruk-Hai getting bumped down to minion. Against anyone less badass, they would have been "normals".
Unfortunately, it is exactly that thinking that makes me dislike the whole minion thing. A bunch of minimum wage security guards? Sure, they scream "minion". An allegedly "elite" strike force? "Elite" against this character, a "minion" against that character. So, Sir Uruk has, say 19 hit points against Joe Shmuckatelli, 2nd level fighter, but, against Paragon Boromir, they all the sudden only have one?
In an already extremely "gamist" game, that just pushes it too far.
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ok, well im not really interested in turning this into an argument about the 4e rules set (as the last thing this place needs is another one) but thanks for your input. I would also urge other posters in this thread NOT to turn it into another largely useless ding-dong about which version of DnD is superior or really anything else that will invariably leads to a 400 post long thread that can basically be described as "an incredibly boring conversation".
EDIT : I've editted this to note it is not a personal dig, just an attempt to manage this thread as they do have a tendancy to disappear up thier own ar5e when left to run wild.
Now back to the original question.
Not trying to dredge for an arguement, but I think the idea of minions is at least as much "simulationist" as it is "gamist." It's trying to simulate a reality as presented by movies and comics (and other medias where that kind of thing happens.)
I think what a lot of people find bothersome, (and honestly, I can understand why,) is the minion concept suggests that hit points are not real. As much as we know they aren't actual to the characters ICly, there's so much tied up into hit points in the game that rings false to suggest they're an abstraction of challenge rather than a part of the world physics.
On topic... for some reason, when I think of minions in movies, I think of the confrontation between Inigo Montoya and the six fingered man's guards in the hallway. It's a small scene, but I think it rather succintly (and beautifully) expresses the minion concept. ^-^
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That is a great scene, and does highlight what minions are for. Let's keep in mind that while the "heroes" were able to quickly dispatch minion after minion with one shot kills, the halflings were no match for them. Boromir may have fallen to an Elite Archer as it were, but not after using up many of his Encounter powers and dailies on those minions, not to mention that great abstraction 'hit points', leaving him vulnerable for the archer.
I have no problem with "Minions" in 7th Sea...D&D shouldn't have them...yet another thing taken from another game...
Boromir being a high level fighter vs 1st & second level fighters, they still drop in 1 shot.
Minions aren't needed...bunch of lowbies does the same thing in 3rd edition, and costs party resources just the same...
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That is a great scene, and does highlight what minions are for. Let's keep in mind that while the "heroes" were able to quickly dispatch minion after minion with one shot kills, the halflings were no match for them. Boromir may have fallen to an Elite Archer as it were, but not after using up many of his Encounter powers and dailies on those minions, not to mention that great abstraction 'hit points', leaving him vulnerable for the archer.
I think you could easily justify that scene in any edition. In fact funnily enough watching that movie, I used to break it down as I was watching it into feats and skill checks as scenes took place. In fact I think that's good practice for any DM watch old fantasy movies and try to think how you can represent what your watching in a game as skill/feat/class abilities. In any edition it helps.
Anywho on topic forbidden kingdom was just chock full of minions. Heck every other scene was minion minion minion, although sometimes the minions took more than one hit to go down.
Ah, except that often in 3rd Edition, if you grabbed enemies of low enough level that they dropped in one shot, they were also so weak as to be unable to offer any threat to the PCs - they were scenery, rather than actually a legitimate part of the encounter.
The 4E minion rules allow for you to present enemies that the PCs can easily carve through, but cannot simply ignore.
So I couldn't say take a monster with 12HD+12 and say it has 24 HP in 3E? Sounds like a minion to me...1HP/HD? 8d6 fireball would kill most without killing all of them instantly...make it more believable...since they wouldn't all immediately die to a lower level spell, thus suspending disbelief...but then again 4e is different...I guess...
In fact I think I might start doing that....more impressive hoards of glass-jawed brutes...minion status 1/2 XP...
(so I guess I flip-flopped...but 1HP is still too low...)
Ah, except that often in 3rd Edition, if you grabbed enemies of low enough level that they dropped in one shot, they were also so weak as to be unable to offer any threat to the PCs - they were scenery, rather than actually a legitimate part of the encounter.
The 4E minion rules allow for you to present enemies that the PCs can easily carve through, but cannot simply ignore.
So I couldn't say take a monster with 12HD+12 and say it has 24 HP in 3E? Sounds like a minion to me...1HP/HD? 8d6 fireball would kill most without killing all of them instantly...make it more believable...since they wouldn't all immediately die to a lower level spell, thus suspending disbelief...but then again 4e is different...I guess...
In fact I think I might start doing that....more impressive hoards of glass-jawed brutes...minion status 1/2 XP...
(so I guess I flip-flopped...but 1HP is still too low...)
You've actually gotten very close to constructing the same mechanic. Your getting caught up on the concept of 1 HP but in 4E thats not really much of an issue its just a statement of 'any descent hit kills'.
In your above example of how to do it in 3.5 you have set it up so that if they save vs. the fireball then they live. 4E does not have save for 1/2 effects but it something like Fireball is either going to hit reflex defense or its going to miss reflex. If it hits the minion dies, if not the minion lives. In fact the mechanics for 4E minions are in some ways more potent for the minion despite the 1 hp. If the 3.5 party wizard fires off a second fireball all the minions are essentially guaranteed to die outside of the wizard rolling abysmally for damage in both fireballs (in which case they are all guaranteed to live) but the 4E minion will have a chance of the wizard missing vs. reflex any time the fireball comes his way. So, in the case were a wizard has a 50% chance of hitting each minion in a group roughly 1/4 of the minions would still be around after the 2nd fireball, 1/8th after the third etc. Hence, despite having only 1 hp 4E minions are probably, on average, a tad more robust then the 3.5 counter part you've designed due to the mechanics of the game.
One aspect of this thats worth considering for a 3.5 version of the minion is you probably want to actually give out less XP then what your handing out. This is because a minion with 28 hps vs. an 8th level party is probably not worth 1/2 the XP of your average 8 CR monster.
Ah, except that often in 3rd Edition, if you grabbed enemies of low enough level that they dropped in one shot, they were also so weak as to be unable to offer any threat to the PCs - they were scenery, rather than actually a legitimate part of the encounter.
The 4E minion rules allow for you to present enemies that the PCs can easily carve through, but cannot simply ignore.
So I couldn't say take a monster with 12HD+12 and say it has 24 HP in 3E? Sounds like a minion to me...1HP/HD? 8d6 fireball would kill most without killing all of them instantly...make it more believable...since they wouldn't all immediately die to a lower level spell, thus suspending disbelief...but then again 4e is different...I guess...
In fact I think I might start doing that....more impressive hoards of glass-jawed brutes...minion status 1/2 XP...
(so I guess I flip-flopped...but 1HP is still too low...)
You've actually gotten very close to constructing the same mechanic. Your getting caught up on the concept of 1 HP but in 4E thats not really much of an issue its just a statement of 'any descent hit kills'.
In your above example of how to do it in 3.5 you have set it up so that if they save vs. the fireball then they live. 4E does not have save for 1/2 effects but it something like Fireball is either going to hit reflex defense or its going to miss reflex. If it hits the minion dies, if not the minion lives. In fact the mechanics for 4E minions are in some ways more potent for the minion despite the 1 hp. If the 3.5 party wizard fires off a second fireball all the minions are essentially guaranteed to die outside of the wizard rolling abysmally for damage in both fireballs (in which case they are all guaranteed to live) but the 4E minion will have a chance of the wizard missing vs. reflex any time the fireball comes his way. So, in the case were a wizard has a 50% chance of hitting each minion in a group roughly 1/4 of the minions would...
They will if they cause enough damage...that's why I say half, they don't have the staying power, but they have the ability to inflict massive damage...more damage than some thing of half the experience normally would...
I see your point with the Reflex AC point...but a maximized 3.5e fireball would kill them all even with a save... =D
moot point for me for 4e anyway, can't afford to buy it...so I'm sticking with 3.5 for 2 reasons ;)
I might possibly play 4e with my kids at an RPGA event...but if there was a Pathfinder Society event next to it, I would play that instead...heh.
In D&D 3.5, a 1 HD monster (like a goblin) had 5 hp and would normally be killed in one shot. If you were unlucky, you inflicted less than 5, and it was a headache tracking which goblin was injured and how much.
The concept of minion removes that tracking issue. Your character normaly deals enough damage to kill a minion with 5-6 hp. Less time tracking their HP, better combat.
Try sending swarms after swarms of kruthik hatchling at your players, you'll see what I mean :)
- Zorg
In your above example of how to do it in 3.5 you have set it up so that if they save vs. the fireball then they live. 4E does not have save for 1/2 effects but it something like Fireball is either going to hit reflex defense or its going to miss reflex. If it hits the minion dies, if not the minion lives. In fact the mechanics for 4E minions are in some ways more potent for the minion despite the 1 hp. If the 3.5 party wizard fires off a second fireball all the minions are essentially guaranteed to die outside of the wizard rolling abysmally for damage in both fireballs (in which case they are all guaranteed to live) but the 4E minion will have a chance of the wizard missing vs. reflex any time the fireball comes his way. So, in the case were a wizard has a 50% chance of hitting each minion in a group roughly 1/4 of the minions would still be around after the 2nd fireball, 1/8th after the third etc. Hence, despite having only 1 hp 4E minions are probably, on average, a tad more robust then the 3.5 counter part you've designed due to the mechanics of the game.
The minion rules, to me, define a set of odd vulnerabilities that are separate from the rest of the world. Specifically, their weakness to anything that doesn't require an attack roll as well as the fact that the amount of damage dealt* to them or effects caused do not matter, only your accuracy is important.
If one were dealing with two different powers, one that creates a small explosion with moderate damage and a large explosion with minor damage, it becomes preferable to use the latter to clear away minions even if though it does practically nothing to anyone else. The explosion could do 1 damage (wouldn't happen) to everything and it would still be preferable for killing minions.
If each minion, on the other hand, had a minor amount of hit points instead of an immunity to misses, it would then matter more what power you used to attack minions. At least, matter beyond accuracy and size. This would unfortunately would require tracking hit points of minions which would cause it's own problems.
In the end, while I see what minions do and like some ways they do it, I do not like the way I believe they re-interpret the effects of my powers and operate on different rules than the rest of the world, changing how the world interacts with them. I feel it does some things better, some things worse, and overall I think that there are better answers out there for myself.
*It does actually in some cases like a minion with resistance, in which case one would have to get at least one point over the resistance value to kill the minion.
Hiya.
From my perspective, it looks like 4E is trying to emulate other RPG's that have "opposed combat" rules, where the skill of each combatant's skill directly 'opposes' his opponents. A good game to view this on is Powers & Perils (old Avalon Hill game from '83 or so).
In P&P, you have HPV and an OCV/DCV (Hit Point Value and Offensive Combat Value / Defensive Combat Value). You take your OCV and subtract your opponents DCV; that gives you the 'Line' on which you roll your 1d100 attack on the Combat Table...lower roll is better. You subtract your skill in the weapon you are using, terrain modifiers, magic, etc. There are three damage levels; Hit, Severe Hit and Deadly Hit. A Deadly Hit is *really* nasty...quite likely to kill your opponent. Anyway, in LotR style, Boromir would have probably had an OCV of around +22 or more, and the Urak-hai probably a DCV of maybe +4. That would give Boromir a Line of +18; a 6% for deadly hit...but you also subtract your 'expertise' in the weapon you are using. For Boromir, I'd say that's EL 11 or so. Now he has a 17% chance for a Deadly Hit (which would do around 5d10+15...and the Urak-hai probably have 25 hp or so). His Sever Hit is around the 33% (for 1d10+11 or so). None of the above is counting tactics, terrain use, magic items, etc...just base experience and expertise.
Anyway, with 4e, it sorta seems like they were trying to find a way to implement an opposed-combat style without changing the core premise of D&D.
The minion rules, to me, define a set of odd vulnerabilities that are separate from the rest of the world. Specifically, their weakness to anything that doesn't require an attack roll as well as the fact that the amount of damage dealt* to them or effects caused do not matter, only your accuracy is important.If one were dealing with two different powers, one that creates a small explosion with moderate damage and a large explosion with minor damage, it becomes preferable to use the latter to clear away minions even if though it does practically nothing to anyone else. The explosion could do 1 damage (wouldn't happen) to everything and it would still be preferable for killing minions.
Which would be a problem if this was a circumstance that was anything but extreme corner case. As you note there are no powers that cause minuscule damage to a huge area, at least none I am aware of, and I don't expect to see any such powers since they are obvously bad design as their only use is killing minions. Beyond that, if I understand the rules right you can't use most auto hit effects on minions. Powers that don't involve a hit roll against them don't do enough damage to kill them.
Hiya.
From my perspective, it looks like 4E is trying to emulate other RPG's that have "opposed combat" rules, where the skill of each combatant's skill directly 'opposes' his opponents. A good game to view this on is Powers & Perils (old Avalon Hill game from '83 or so).
In P&P, you have HPV and an OCV/DCV (Hit Point Value and Offensive Combat Value / Defensive Combat Value). You take your OCV and subtract your opponents DCV; that gives you the 'Line' on which you roll your 1d100 attack on the Combat Table...lower roll is better. You subtract your skill in the weapon you are using, terrain modifiers, magic, etc. There are three damage levels; Hit, Severe Hit and Deadly Hit. A Deadly Hit is *really* nasty...quite likely to kill your opponent. Anyway, in LotR style, Boromir would have probably had an OCV of around +22 or more, and the Urak-hai probably a DCV of maybe +4. That would give Boromir a Line of +18; a 6% for deadly hit...but you also subtract your 'expertise' in the weapon you are using. For Boromir, I'd say that's EL 11 or so. Now he has a 17% chance for a Deadly Hit (which would do around 5d10+15...and the Urak-hai probably have 25 hp or so). His Sever Hit is around the 33% (for 1d10+11 or so). None of the above is counting tactics, terrain use, magic items, etc...just base experience and expertise.
Anyway, with 4e, it sorta seems like they were trying to find a way to implement an opposed-combat style without changing the core premise of D&D.
I don't really think that was the point...I think they were trying to get the feeling of some of the scenes in the LotRs movie. How to get lots of cinematic gratuitous kills but still acknowledge that the minions weapons were dangerous. Jackie Chan was mentioned above - he takes out 'minions' by the droves but he still has to weave and dodge the guy with the baseball bat and if he messes up the baseball bat is going to really mess up our hero.
If 4E had been trying to emulate 'opposed Combat' rules we'd see effects focusing on this in creatures that were not minions.
In D&D 3.5, a 1 HD monster (like a goblin) had 5 hp and would normally be killed in one shot. If you were unlucky, you inflicted less than 5, and it was a headache tracking which goblin was injured and how much.
The concept of minion removes that tracking issue. Your character normaly deals enough damage to kill a minion with 5-6 hp. Less time tracking their HP, better combat.
Try sending swarms after swarms of kruthik hatchling at your players, you'll see what I mean :)
- Zorg
Even beyond this, if you wanted to have a monster in a mid-level game that could be killed in one shot in 3.5, it had to be something like the 1 HD goblin you describe - and a 1 HD goblin doesn't pose a threat to 10th level adventurers. Minions not only die in a single hit, but they hit about as reliably as any other creature you might find in that fight, which means they remain credible threats to the party.
Which would be a problem if this was a circumstance that was anything but extreme corner case. As you note there are no powers that cause minuscule damage to a huge area, at least none I am aware of, and I don't expect to see any such powers since they are obvously bad design as their only use is killing minions. Beyond that, if I understand the rules right you can't use most auto hit effects on minions. Powers that don't involve a hit roll against them don't do enough damage to kill them.
Yeah, the only powers that come immediately to mind for dealing small (relatively) damage to a large area is the ranger's level 27 encounter Hail of Arrows, which allows an attack at every enemy in range for a bit of damage, and the wizard's level 23 encounter Chain Lightning, which (eventually) allows for an attack against creatures within range for minor damage.
I'm not sure what you are seeing that stops auto-hit powers from killing minions. They do enough damage, as they just need to do 1. For example, I'm looking at the wizard at-will Cloud of Daggers which deals damage to any creature that starts within it or passes through it.
It is under "Effect" as opposed to "Hit" or "Miss" so from my reading of the rules the minions would not be immune from the effect. Is there some rule that I'm missing?
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Even beyond this, if you wanted to have a monster in a mid-level game that could be killed in one shot in 3.5, it had to be something like the 1 HD goblin you describe - and a 1 HD goblin doesn't pose a threat to 10th level adventurers. Minions not only die in a single hit, but they hit about as reliably as any other creature you might find in that fight, which means they remain credible threats to the party.In D&D 3.5, a 1 HD monster (like a goblin) had 5 hp and would normally be killed in one shot. If you were unlucky, you inflicted less than 5, and it was a headache tracking which goblin was injured and how much.
The concept of minion removes that tracking issue. Your character normaly deals enough damage to kill a minion with 5-6 hp. Less time tracking their HP, better combat.
Try sending swarms after swarms of kruthik hatchling at your players, you'll see what I mean :)
- Zorg
No, you can make 1hp/HD opponents that drop in 1-2 hits...while still providing an opponent that can still dmg, in 3.5...
No, you can make 1hp/HD opponents that drop in 1-2 hits...while still providing an opponent that can still dmg, in 3.5...Even beyond this, if you wanted to have a monster in a mid-level game that could be killed in one shot in 3.5, it had to be something like the 1 HD goblin you describe - and a 1 HD goblin doesn't pose a threat to 10th level adventurers. Minions not only die in a single hit, but they hit about as reliably as any other creature you might find in that fight, which means they remain credible threats to the party.In D&D 3.5, a 1 HD monster (like a goblin) had 5 hp and would normally be killed in one shot. If you were unlucky, you inflicted less than 5, and it was a headache tracking which goblin was injured and how much.
The concept of minion removes that tracking issue. Your character normaly deals enough damage to kill a minion with 5-6 hp. Less time tracking their HP, better combat.
Try sending swarms after swarms of kruthik hatchling at your players, you'll see what I mean :)
- Zorg
You'll have to excuse me. I thought we were talking about actual Dungeons & Dragons 3.5. Now you're talking about house rules, and you could make those for any game.
I've read a few posts about 4e and one of the things that keeps cropping up as an "issue" is that of minions.
Then I watched Fellowship of the Ring with my daughter for the first time (hers not mine - she loved it). I realised that the end fight (after Boromir tries to take the ring) is an awesome minion fight, and totally the way I envision it happening in game.
I heartily recommend watching it if you are having difficulty with the concept of minions.
Are there any other scenes from films that represent awesome fights vs hordes of minions that people would recommend?
Back on track with the point of the OP, instead of some epic debate over the mechanics.
Kill Bill vol.1, like the whole second half of the movie. So many minions. I also saw Monster vs. Aliens the other night and
The alien clones himself, but the monster just stomp through them all. My wife and me both leaned over to each and said "minions" :-)
You'll have to excuse me. I thought we were talking about actual Dungeons & Dragons 3.5. Now you're talking about house rules, and you could make those for any game.No, you can make 1hp/HD opponents that drop in 1-2 hits...while still providing an opponent that can still dmg, in 3.5...Even beyond this, if you wanted to have a monster in a mid-level game that could be killed in one shot in 3.5, it had to be something like the 1 HD goblin you describe - and a 1 HD goblin doesn't pose a threat to 10th level adventurers. Minions not only die in a single hit, but they hit about as reliably as any other creature you might find in that fight, which means they remain credible threats to the party.In D&D 3.5, a 1 HD monster (like a goblin) had 5 hp and would normally be killed in one shot. If you were unlucky, you inflicted less than 5, and it was a headache tracking which goblin was injured and how much.
The concept of minion removes that tracking issue. Your character normaly deals enough damage to kill a minion with 5-6 hp. Less time tracking their HP, better combat.
Try sending swarms after swarms of kruthik hatchling at your players, you'll see what I mean :)
- Zorg
No that isn't necessarily a House Rule...(I Should have said 1hp/HD + CON...as I did in a previous post...)
Hit Dice are based on a die type, there's nothing saying you have to have average hit points for monsters, I don't actually roll Hit Points for BBEGs either, I usually give them max HP...
And saying "ACTUAL" D&D comes across as condescending, but since most of your posts read that way, I'll just assume you think you know best...do you work for Wizards or something?
Remember the rule in the DMG that says the rules are guidelines???
I've read a few posts about 4e and one of the things that keeps cropping up as an "issue" is that of minions.
Then I watched Fellowship of the Ring with my daughter for the first time (hers not mine - she loved it). I realised that the end fight (after Boromir tries to take the ring) is an awesome minion fight, and totally the way I envision it happening in game.
I heartily recommend watching it if you are having difficulty with the concept of minions.
I saw the movie a couple of times, and I read the book a couple of times. Each in two languages.
I don't want to brag, I just want to say that even with that intimate knowledge of the story, I cannot see minions there.
Mooks, maybe, being low-level characters.
I don't like the minion system. If you want enemies that fall at once, use low-level enemies with few enough HP. If you want them to be able to affect the characters, make them higher-level.
If you want enemies that are able to hit the characters but will fall over once they're hit, don't use a class system or a HD system.
You'll have to excuse me. I thought we were talking about actual Dungeons & Dragons 3.5. Now you're talking about house rules, and you could make those for any game.No, you can make 1hp/HD opponents that drop in 1-2 hits...while still providing an opponent that can still dmg, in 3.5...Even beyond this, if you wanted to have a monster in a mid-level game that could be killed in one shot in 3.5, it had to be something like the 1 HD goblin you describe - and a 1 HD goblin doesn't pose a threat to 10th level adventurers. Minions not only die in a single hit, but they hit about as reliably as any other creature you might find in that fight, which means they remain credible threats to the party.In D&D 3.5, a 1 HD monster (like a goblin) had 5 hp and would normally be killed in one shot. If you were unlucky, you inflicted less than 5, and it was a headache tracking which goblin was injured and how much.
The concept of minion removes that tracking issue. Your character normaly deals enough damage to kill a minion with 5-6 hp. Less time tracking their HP, better combat.
Try sending swarms after swarms of kruthik hatchling at your players, you'll see what I mean :)
- Zorg
No that isn't necessarily a House Rule...(I Should have said 1hp/HD + CON...as I did in a previous post...)
Hit Dice are based on a die type, there's nothing saying you have to have average hit points for monsters, I don't actually roll Hit Points for BBEGs either, I usually give them max HP...
Hit points for created monsters are designed to be rolled. That's why their hit dice are expressed as dice. They are not designed to be assigned arbitrary values, especially maximum or minimum values. That's supposed to be a possibility, not a given.
What you're doing is a house rule.
It's also a bad house rule, because it doesn't work past, like, fifth level.
Try throwing stone giant minions at your 3.5 group. Using your rules, they come out to fight packing 70 hit points apiece. As CR 8 creatures, you can reasonably expect an 8th-level party. An 8th-level rogue packs maybe 5d6+4 damage using a sneak attack. That comes out to 21.5 average damage. Your striker needs more than three average attacks to kill this minion. Your minion system has some pretty serious flaws, even using your house rules.
3.5 doesn't support minions. You had to house rule it to make it anything resembling workable, and even then it's completely worthless by mid-level.
And saying "ACTUAL" D&D comes across as condescending, but since most of your posts read that way, I'll just assume you think you know best...do you work for Wizards or something?
No, I've just read the rule books a couple times. I missed the part where they explained how minions are supposed to work in 3.5. Maybe you could either show me that page, or stop accusing others of being condescending when they're simply pointing out the obvious.
House rules are not D&D as written. House rules are house rules.
I don't care what your particular take on the game is. The game exists, has rules, and most people use them. And as long as you're going to talk about what 3.5 does and does not support, you need to agree to leave house rules out of it. If you don't, this discussion is worthless because you can just as easily claim that 3.5 can support anything, which means that your definition of "support" becomes meaningless - "support" should mean more than "it's your game, make stuff up".
Remember the rule in the DMG that says the rules are guidelines???
Rule 0 exists in all games. The only difference between all other games and D&D is that the guys who wrote D&D were nice enough to tell you what should already be obvious: you can do whatever you want with your own game.
But you're talking about support. Rule 0 is not support. Claiming that 3.5 "supports" minions is like claiming that Monopoly "supports" dinosaurs. If you want dinosaurs in your Monopoly, go right ahead, but you're on your own.
Really? They're meant to be rolled? Then why do most adventures in 3.5 have AVG hit point? I remember in 1e there would be a list of creature HPs. Like (1,2,2,3,4,5,6,6,8)...
Oh, I must not have read the rulebooks...I'll just refrain from replying to any of your posts in the future, so we can agree to disagree...
While I don't like 4e, I do respect everyone's right to play the game they want...we were having an interesting discussion, then you basically attacked my post...when I was talking about converting a 4e Mechanic into my game...
Stone Giant with 1HP? kay...
Sweet, I'll bring a hundred peasants, at least 5 should hit and auto kill the 1HP guys....
Hit points for created monsters are designed to be rolled. That's why their hit dice are expressed as dice. They are not designed to be assigned arbitrary values, especially maximum or minimum values. That's supposed to be a possibility, not a given.
What you're doing is a house rule.It's also a bad house rule, because it doesn't work past, like, fifth level.
Try throwing stone giant minions at your 3.5 group. Using your rules, they come out to fight packing 70 hit points apiece. As CR 8 creatures, you can reasonably expect an 8th-level party. An 8th-level rogue packs maybe 5d6+4 damage using a sneak attack. That comes out to 21.5 average damage. Your striker needs more than three average attacks to kill this minion. Your minion system has some pretty serious flaws, even using your house rules.
You're assuming that one-hit minions are a good idea in the first place. I can think of other games with mook/minion rules that don't recognize auto-kills for minions with one hit. They're fragile, but one-hitting them isn't a foregone conclusion.
But there's nothing "house rule" about creating minion-like opponents in 3.5. All you have to do is recognize that, as stated, the MM entries are just your average specimens. You want easier ones to face? Assume 1 hp per die - well within the DM's power and not a house rule at all (certainly no more house-ruley than taking the average hit points listed in the MM) and maybe even drop the Con a few points. You've got yourself an opponent the PCs will still rip through.
So can the crap about it being a 'house rule' simply because you're not using the monsters exactly as statted up in the MM. You're just embarrassing yourself.
Really? They're meant to be rolled? Then why do most adventures in 3.5 have AVG hit point? I remember in 1e there would be a list of creature HPs. Like (1,2,2,3,4,5,6,6,8)...
Because pre-packaged adventures have that done for you. For those who don't want to roll, average works well. But there is no intention for an entire set of monsters to come out of the gate with minimum hit points to serve as a special class of monsters. It also happens to not work anyway.
Stone Giant with 1HP? kay...
Sweet, I'll bring a hundred peasants, at least 5 should hit and auto kill the 1HP guys....
They're not minions if a hundred peasants are fighting them. That's not how monsters in 4th Edition are designed to work.
You're assuming that one-hit minions are a good idea in the first place. I can think of other games with mook/minion rules that don't recognize auto-kills for minions with one hit. They're fragile, but one-hitting them isn't a foregone conclusion.
No, I'm operating under Xaaon's "1-2 hits" requirement. That was his thing. I haven't said whether or not minions are a Good Thing in this discussion; only that they are not supported by the 3.5 rules.
But there's nothing "house rule" about creating minion-like opponents in 3.5. All you have to do is recognize that, as stated, the MM entries are just your average specimens. You want easier ones to face? Assume 1 hp per die - well within the DM's power and not a house rule at all (certainly no more house-ruley than taking the average hit points listed in the MM) and maybe even drop the Con a few points.
This is the only way to do it - creating entirely new monsters with altered stat blocks. In this case, you're not so much throwing minions at the PCs as you are throwing the monsters' equivalent of sickly gazelles at them.
You've got yourself an opponent the PCs will still rip through.
So can the crap about it being a 'house rule' simply because you're not using the monsters exactly as statted up in the MM. You're just embarrassing yourself.
It's a house rule, whether or not you choose to see it as that. You're creating an entire "class" of monster designed to fill the role of a minion. This monster has specific rules that apply only to that "class" - namely, the monster must have 1 hit point per hit die and cannot have a constitution score above (probably) 15. Xaaon has created this rule of monster design for his own "class" of monster which doesn't appear in any of the actual game rules. Rules that only certain games have that are not outlined in the game's actual rules are, by definition, house rules.
It's not that he's not using the monsters exactly as presented in the Monster Manual. It's that he's using an entirely new method of monster HP generation in addition to revising an entire "class" of monsters' constitution scores downward, and it's done not to fulfill a naturalism-based requirement of the setting, but rather to provide a different sort of challenge to the PCs. There isn't anything wrong with this, so don't get all fussy. You just need to be careful about what rule you choose to apply and what its consequences are going to be.
You're assuming that one-hit minions are a good idea in the first place. I can think of other games with mook/minion rules that don't recognize auto-kills for minions with one hit. They're fragile, but one-hitting them isn't a foregone conclusion.No, I'm operating under Xaaon's "1-2 hits" requirement. That was his thing. I haven't said whether or not minions are a Good Thing in this discussion; only that they are not supported by the 3.5 rules.
But there's nothing "house rule" about creating minion-like opponents in 3.5. All you have to do is recognize that, as stated, the MM entries are just your average specimens. You want easier ones to face? Assume 1 hp per die - well within the DM's power and not a house rule at all (certainly no more house-ruley than taking the average hit points listed in the MM) and maybe even drop the Con a few points.This is the only way to do it - creating entirely new monsters with altered stat blocks. In this case, you're not so much throwing minions at the PCs as you are throwing the monsters' equivalent of sickly gazelles at them.
You've got yourself an opponent the PCs will still rip through.
So can the crap about it being a 'house rule' simply because you're not using the monsters exactly as statted up in the MM. You're just embarrassing yourself.It's a house rule, whether or not you choose to see it as that. You're creating an entire "class" of monster designed to fill the role of a minion. This monster has specific rules that apply only to that "class" - namely, the monster must have 1 hit point per hit die and cannot have a constitution score above (probably) 15. Xaaon has created this rule of monster design for his own "class" of monster which doesn't appear in any of the actual game rules. Rules that only certain games have that are not outlined in the game's actual rules are, by definition, house rules.
It's not that he's not using the monsters exactly...
I didn't say to lower CON scores... Minions ARE the sickly Gazelles!
That's my last post in response to your posts Scott.
No hard feelings.
Scott,
You have missed the point of the thread, almost every ones comments and are now just trolling. If you can't play nice don't play.
Welcome to the Paizo forums!
In the future, please consider addressing the post, and not the poster. Personal attacks, like accusations of trolling, should be avoided.
Enjoy your stay!
It is under "Effect" as opposed to "Hit" or "Miss" so from my reading of the rules the minions would not be immune from the effect. Is there some rule that I'm missing?
I had over generalized from the 'misses do no damage' rule. Essentially interpreting it (in my memory - not after rereading the rule) to say that an attack roll had to be adjudicated against a minion in order to kill it. Actually I think that might be a good rule if, as Matthew Koelbl contends, there are a great many of auto-kill abilities around that take out minions. Come to think of it these types of powers probably crop up a lot in games where the DM loves minions. Players build their characters - in part anyway, to combat the kind of challenges their DM tends to throw at them. hence a DM thats finding his players killing his minions to easily can house rule that minions never take enough damage to kill them unless an attack roll is adjudicated against them.
I had over generalized from the 'misses do no damage' rule. Essentially interpreting it (in my memory - not after rereading the rule) to say that an attack roll had to be adjudicated against a minion in order to kill it. Actually I think that might be a good rule if, as Matthew Koelbl contends, there are a great many of auto-kill abilities around that take out minions. Come to think of it these types of powers probably crop up a lot in games where the DM loves minions. Players build their characters - in part anyway, to combat the kind of challenges their DM tends to throw at them. hence a DM thats finding his players killing his minions to easily can house rule that minions never take enough damage to kill them unless an attack roll is adjudicated against them.
It is under "Effect" as opposed to "Hit" or "Miss" so from my reading of the rules the minions would not be immune from the effect. Is there some rule that I'm missing?
I think that this rule would work for several groups, but I don't really like it as described. Most of the effects that cause automatic damage that I'm aware of are things that effect terrain and where things can move without taking damage (among other things). Cloud of Daggers, Stinking Cloud, Wall of Fire, and other similar powers encourage enemies go avoid passing through for, in part, the damage they deal. If minions don't take damage from such effects, than the minions avoiding them isn't attached to the game mechanics, the only reason one would avoid passing through a wall of fire is if the DM were to act as if the wall could kill them rather than acting upon any threat the wall posed.
Modifications I would suggest to this rule might be that minion that walks into a damaging effect dies even without an attack roll. Also that if any other effect that would cause automatic damage to a minion, it would daze (or some similar condition) them instead (that way one still benefits from "damaging" the minions, without causing their instantaneous death). Edit: One more thing, if they start their turn in an auto damaging effect, they have to spend their one action to get out of the effect of the power, if they don't or can't they, they die at the end of the turn.
I think I prefer replacing the "miss doesn't deal damage" with the damage threshold system for a quick modification of 4e minions while adding any damage to a minion (even if it doesn't exceed the threshold) dazes them. I think that would solve most my issues with them, however I am not entirely sure about it, I still want to see minions in play using the actual rules a bit more before I adjust the system.
If you want to give your minions a bit more "staying power", you could rule that they only take damage from ongoing effects (including "terrain"-based effects such as cloud of daggers) at the end of their turn, or when they move into such a space. That would at least allow the minions an opportunity to leave the area of effect.
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This is the only way to do it - creating entirely new monsters with altered stat blocks. In this case, you're not so much throwing minions at the PCs as you are throwing the monsters' equivalent of sickly gazelles at them.
Um by definition though isn't that the 4ed minions as well? So how is it minions for 4ed and sickly gazelles for 3.5.
anywho V for vendetta also has some good minion scenes, whenever he's fighting a group of un-named cops or what have you.
Um by definition though isn't that the 4ed minions as well? So how is it minions for 4ed and sickly gazelles for 3.5.
This is the only way to do it - creating entirely new monsters with altered stat blocks. In this case, you're not so much throwing minions at the PCs as you are throwing the monsters' equivalent of sickly gazelles at them.
Minions in 4th Edition are not simply slightly altered versions of standard creatures. They are entirely new stat blocks specifically created to fill that role, and are native to the 4th Edition system. Because they have a flat 1 HP, their ability scores do not influence it (so you don't necessarily have "sickly gazelle" minions with constitution scores of 8 in order to get HP low enough to be satisfying). Rather than being the malnourished runts of a society, they're simply untrained mooks.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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Minions in 4th Edition are not simply slightly altered versions of standard creatures. They are entirely new stat blocks specifically created to fill that role, and are native to the 4th Edition system. Because they have a flat 1 HP, their ability scores do not influence it (so you don't necessarily have "sickly gazelle" minions with constitution scores of 8 in order to get HP low enough to be satisfying). Rather than being the malnourished runts of a society, they're simply untrained mooks.Um by definition though isn't that the 4ed minions as well? So how is it minions for 4ed and sickly gazelles for 3.5.
This is the only way to do it - creating entirely new monsters with altered stat blocks. In this case, you're not so much throwing minions at the PCs as you are throwing the monsters' equivalent of sickly gazelles at them.
I disagree, sir! You've been lead to believe a LIE! Minions are in no way native to the 4e system! I have collected and cataloged an enormous amount of evidence that shows these so-called MINIONS to be EXTRATERRESTRIAL in origin!
Observe the preponderance of strange flying objects in minion cultural art! Sure, Archaeologists and Anthropologists and so-called LEARNED MEN will tell you that these icons are not based on any real object, but I tell you now it is patently obvious that these are SPACESHIPS flown by ANCIENT ASTRONAUTS!
The EVIDENCE is THERE my friend! While you and other people busy yourselves debating the PROS and the CONS of minion game mechanics, or whether or not they can exist in 3.x, THE GOVERNMENT is working DAY and NIGHT to cover up the TRUTH!
We need to FIGHT BACK! Help me in my search for TRUTH! Look for the signs of minion activity in movies, in films, in TV PROGRAMS! The TRUTH is out there, my friend!
WATCH THE SCREEN!
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Just to stick my tuppence worth in(2 cents worth for our American bretheren) I remember Minions making their first appearance in gaming in Top Secret(1st edition) so the rule has a TSR pedigree.\they were called extras back then but still only had one hit point and were there for the Heroes to mow down in droves.
Actually it's one of the few things I liked about 4e.
Just to stick my tuppence worth in(2 cents worth for our American bretheren) I remember Minions making their first appearance in gaming in Top Secret(1st edition) so the rule has a TSR pedigree.\they were called extras back then but still only had one hit point and were there for the Heroes to mow down in droves.
Actually it's one of the few things I liked about 4e.
That's pretty cool, I never realized that a similar mechanic appeared so early on in tabletop's history.
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I think I'm going to have to agree with Scott on comparing editions. You have to compare the two using the default settings (stat block v. stat block, et cetera) without using DM fiat (rule 0). And he's right, 3x RAW makes using a "minion" mechanic difficult without liberal use of Rule 0.
Now, back to the topic. The humans working for the machines in The Matrix were definitely minions.
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That's pretty cool, I never realized that a similar mechanic appeared so early on in tabletop's history.Just to stick my tuppence worth in(2 cents worth for our American bretheren) I remember Minions making their first appearance in gaming in Top Secret(1st edition) so the rule has a TSR pedigree.\they were called extras back then but still only had one hit point and were there for the Heroes to mow down in droves.
Actually it's one of the few things I liked about 4e.
Top Secret was a game with much potential, but they tried to marry a "class system" with a skill based mechanic. Top Secret/S.I. was just goofy, imo.
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Top Secret was a game with much potential, but they tried to marry a "class system" with a skill based mechanic. Top Secret/S.I. was just goofy, imo.
Dragonquest I think handled this rather well, I would be surprised to find that WotC didn't have a quick flick through when they were thinking of miniatures based combat in an RPG.
As for minions in movies, Rambo III comes to mind.
S.