Anything with Schwarzenegger in it (ok, except Twins... no, wait I think there were a couple non-lethal takedowns).
I also saw Monster vs. Aliens the other night and ** spoiler omitted **
I like that example, partly because I enjoyed that movie a lot. Poor hapless minions.
Princess Bride, Inigo vs Guards...
I mentioned that one back at the beginning. n.n;
Princess Bride, Inigo vs Guards...I mentioned that one back at the beginning. n.n;
Don't blame him/her for not noticing it among the ideological proselytization.
As for minion fights:
Gladiator (Russel Crowe, not Cuba Gooding Jr.)
Willow
Last Man Standing (Bruce Willis, not the other one)
The Chronicles of Riddick
One (With Jet Li)
Heck, Star Wars had stormtroopers and battle droids. Those couldn't have been anything but minions - faceless, legion, expendable and almost completely ineffective as individuals against the heroes.
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X-Men 3 had a great minion scene when Magneto sent the hords of lesser mutans against the troops guarding the 'cure' (minion on minion action) and then the X-Men showed up and took the lesser mutants down (players vs minions).
Ugh that movie, why oh why didn't magneto just drop the bridge on the f-ing fascility in the first place
Don't blame him/her for not noticing it among the ideological proselytization.
Fair enough, sorry.
Perfect examples of minions scenes - The Protector (aka Tom Yum Goong) with Tony Jaa.
Two scenes of note:
THe first has Jaa charging into a restaurant (Tom Yum Goong) and he's one-two punching/kicking/elbowing/knee-striking/throwing minions while progressing level by level up a long staircase to the top of the restaurant. It's like youre watching a live action version of some 80's side scrolling video game. It's pretty much done in one continuous take and it's awesome.
The second is in the same movie but much later on in the aftermath of the typical hero flips out after losing someone/thing close to him and he takes out an entire room of what must be 20-30 black clad minions with some of the most effed up crippling attacks known to man.
I mean seriously, if I'm a paid minion and I charge into a room to see one guy standing there with about 25 of my fellow minions strewn about the room in various stages of incapacitation, do I REALLY charge the guy who's done that?
"Yeah, I dont think my minion health coverage is going to cover multiple fractures to the neck, leg, arm, eye-socket and puppy. I'm going home..."
Stormtroopers and battledroids also can't hit heroes. I would downgrade them to 1st level warriors from 3.5 or make them take the Collective Incompetence flaw (-1 to attack for every ally in the encounter). That's why they aren't likely to be minions; minions are supposed to represent a threat.
I recall stormtroopers as getting a shot in on Leia at one point, and Han certainly seemed to think they were a threat when he decided that charging them wasn't such a great idea after all.
EDIT: And yeah, like tyweise said, the stormtroopers were still "dealing damage" a lot of the time by laying down fire on the heroes. They just never really struck any killing blows (which makes sense; in my experience it's usually not minions who drop characters).
Heck, Star Wars had stormtroopers and battle droids. Those couldn't have been anything but minions - faceless, legion, expendable and almost completely ineffective as individuals against the heroes.
That's exactly not the definition of a 4e minion, which can be effective as individual against a character, but will die from the first time I spit in his face.
Stormtroopers are overequipped 1st-level commoners with the human standard array (all 10s)
I recall stormtroopers as getting a shot in on Leia at one point
Of course. Statistically, every 20th attack will hit because it will be a natural 20.
And those stormtroopers don't even manage that. Their incompetence knows no bounds.
Han certainly seemed to think they were a threat when he decided that charging them wasn't such a great idea after all.
That's because all Star Wars characters were genre blind.
It's perfectly illustrated in A New Hope when Ben and Luke find all those dead bodies and Ben says: "Only Imperial stormtroopers are this precise". Excuse me, Benny? Has your pupil's terminal dumbness infected you as well? If so, you must become a sith lord at once, since that seems to turn you from a complete and utter dunce into someone who's actually capable. The only price you pay is that you'll have to get a really silly name. (One that would even make counter-strike players grinch).
Storm Troopers are funny.
I walked past one in Köln the other day and thought: "Hey, something that would pass the time for about half a second. Where are his mates so I have something to do a whole combat round?" Later, I saw them. Apparently, they have a club. Probably the "Don't Waste Heroes' Time By Sticking Together Club" whose goal it is to never let part of a Hero's round be wasted. :D
That's exactly not the definition of a 4e minion, which can be effective as individual against a character, but will die from the first time I spit in his face.
Which means that they aren't effective as individuals against a character. In a 1-on-1 fight, they have a pretty solid chance of being flat-out killed before they even get a chance to attack. Minions are only effective in groups, because they effectively split the longevity of a single monster amongst four minions, dividing the PCs' ability to control the damage output. They are designed to be a threat to parties, yes, but only in significant numbers.
Of course. Statistically, every 20th attack will hit because it will be a natural 20.
The shot on Leia wasn't a natural 20. The shot on Leia is much more accurately described as an attack that put her below her bloodied value - an actual, visible injury. As has been explained a couple times now, the stormtroopers are actually "hitting" fairly often, but in D&D those "hits" translate to glancing blows, near misses and careful dodging in the game world.
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X-Men 3 had a great minion scene when Magneto sent the hords of lesser mutans against the troops guarding the 'cure' (minion on minion action) and then the X-Men showed up and took the lesser mutants down (players vs minions).Ugh that movie, why oh why didn't magneto just drop the bridge on the f-ing fascility in the first place
Evil overlords have to let their minions have some fun every now and then.
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The shot on Leia wasn't a natural 20. The shot on Leia is much more accurately described as an attack that put her below her bloodied value - an actual, visible injury. As has been explained a couple times now, the stormtroopers are actually "hitting" fairly often, but in D&D those "hits" translate to glancing blows, near misses and careful dodging in the game world.
The blaster was set on "stun". The damage would have been the 4e equivalent of subdual damage. So, if you consider Episode IV the "heroic tier" component of the campaign arc, it is possible that Leia was just low enough level to be knocked out in one hit, or the stormtrooper, did, in fact score a critical. (Probably the latter, as low level characters are a bit tougher in 4e.)
But then, my understanding of the 4e mechanics are pretty basic, so I might be looking at it wrong.
The shot on Leia wasn't a natural 20. The shot on Leia is much more accurately described as an attack that put her below her bloodied value - an actual, visible injury. As has been explained a couple times now, the stormtroopers are actually "hitting" fairly often, but in D&D those "hits" translate to glancing blows, near misses and careful dodging in the game world.The blaster was set on "stun". The damage would have been the 4e equivalent of subdual damage. So, if you consider Episode IV the "heroic tier" component of the campaign arc, it is possible that Leia was just low enough level to be knocked out in one hit, or the stormtrooper, did, in fact score a critical. (Probably the latter, as low level characters are a bit tougher in 4e.)
But then, my understanding of the 4e mechanics are pretty basic, so I might be looking at it wrong.
The moment I was referring to was where she was shot during the assault on Endor in Return of the Jedi.
The shot on Leia wasn't a natural 20. The shot on Leia is much more accurately described as an attack that put her below her bloodied value - an actual, visible injury. As has been explained a couple times now, the stormtroopers are actually "hitting" fairly often, but in D&D those "hits" translate to glancing blows, near misses and careful dodging in the game world.
They didn't do any glancing blows before that one. They didn't do any after.
Plus, I don't like fixed limits where HP change from one meaning to the other. "I hite for 7 damage, what does that do?" "Well, you put it below 80% of HP so he went from 'mildly annoyed' to 'moderately miffed', which means you singed his clothes. If you had done 10 points, he would have gone to 'seriously pissed' and you'd have singed his hair"
I stick to the incompetence part.
I try to be an easy-going chilled out contributor here - but sometimes some of you DRIVE ME NUTS!! For once I'm going to unleash my vorpal sword and start hacking off some heads!
This thread is another example. Instead of trying to pick apart the rule mechanics of a dramatic scene, how about looking at what actually makes it... dramatic!
I swear this rules-centric approach to every topic is the result of 3ED & 4ED mechanic heavy D&D!! *waves sword in air*
Ratchet gave an excellent example of a heart pounding fight scene. If you wanted to give your players a taste of the same FEELING it would have little to do with feats and powers. Look at the structure of the battle and the NARRATIVE techniques that make it rock. For example:
The attack has a very eerie harbinger (the glowing sword).
The 'heroes' have to defend some very vulnerable allies.
The heroes are split off from each other and have to fight their way to meet up.
One of the heroes redeems his previous disgrace by fighting unstoppable odds. This kind of thing is high drama.
It culminates with a face off between the two rival party leaders.
The battle serves to lead on to a powerful moment of character development between two major personalities who have been at odds with each other.
Because they fail to protect the hobbits, the battle leads to further drama as they must now be rescued.
If you could apply some or all of that 'formula' to a sequence you are DMing you might approach the same sense of drama and excitement. Rule sets be damned.
* rant ends *
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The moment I was referring to was where she was shot during the assault on Endor in Return of the Jedi.The shot on Leia wasn't a natural 20. The shot on Leia is much more accurately described as an attack that put her below her bloodied value - an actual, visible injury. As has been explained a couple times now, the stormtroopers are actually "hitting" fairly often, but in D&D those "hits" translate to glancing blows, near misses and careful dodging in the game world.The blaster was set on "stun". The damage would have been the 4e equivalent of subdual damage. So, if you consider Episode IV the "heroic tier" component of the campaign arc, it is possible that Leia was just low enough level to be knocked out in one hit, or the stormtrooper, did, in fact score a critical. (Probably the latter, as low level characters are a bit tougher in 4e.)
But then, my understanding of the 4e mechanics are pretty basic, so I might be looking at it wrong.
Ok, different part then. How would the part from ep IV go down in 4e, mechanically?
Stormtroopers and battledroids also can't hit heroes. I would downgrade them to 1st level warriors from 3.5 or make them take the Collective Incompetence flaw (-1 to attack for every ally in the encounter). That's why they aren't likely to be minions; minions are supposed to represent a threat.
Thing is they did represent a threat. The good guys are constantly running away from any large grouping of storm troopers because they are seen as a threat by the protagonists.
In game terms I think those near misses where taking off hp damage and the hero's understood that they had to avoid them or eventually one of those laser blasts would be lethal.
From a gaming perspective much of the point of minions is to force your players to act in certain ways around them. The Dark Lords Guards are no match for the players but you can't just wade through 500 of them to attack the Dark Lord in the middle of camp either. So they are not just low level - if they were then it'd not matter how many of them there were - the players would just, eventually, slog through them all. If they are minions however then the players can kill them by the dozen but if there are enough of them the players still loose.
Jet Li, in "The Legend 2" where on the way to the Boss fight he blindfolds himself and using half a dozen katana's cuts his way through a host of minions.
IMO Jackie Chan fights are very rarely minion fights, everytime he hits one of them they return (2 opponents later). He and they take a pasting before falling over.
Ok, different part then. How would the part from ep IV go down in 4e, mechanically?The moment I was referring to was where she was shot during the assault on Endor in Return of the Jedi.The shot on Leia wasn't a natural 20. The shot on Leia is much more accurately described as an attack that put her below her bloodied value - an actual, visible injury. As has been explained a couple times now, the stormtroopers are actually "hitting" fairly often, but in D&D those "hits" translate to glancing blows, near misses and careful dodging in the game world.The blaster was set on "stun". The damage would have been the 4e equivalent of subdual damage. So, if you consider Episode IV the "heroic tier" component of the campaign arc, it is possible that Leia was just low enough level to be knocked out in one hit, or the stormtrooper, did, in fact score a critical. (Probably the latter, as low level characters are a bit tougher in 4e.)
But then, my understanding of the 4e mechanics are pretty basic, so I might be looking at it wrong.
Well, at that point Leia was little more than a young politician. She had her sporting blaster for protection and a lot of guts, but almost no experience as far as combat goes. Meanwhile, the stormtrooper was well-trained and better equipped.
In game mechanics, the stormtrooper is probably a higher-level standard monster with an encounter power to knock a target unconscious (or the like). Leia barely qualifies as a PC - she's 1st-level at best.
Realistically, though, this probably plays out best as a non-combat encounter. Leia doesn't really stand a chance against the Imperial boarding party, and she knows it. Against odds like these, the player and DM could probably agree to simply hand-wave the actual encounter and decide that Leia is quickly brought down with a blaster rifle set to stun. It isn't until she teams up with Han, Chewie, Luke and the droids that she can really become involved in challenge encounters.
By the way, the trash compactor scene would make a fantastic skill challenge + combat encounter. R2-D2 and C-3PO would have to engage in a skill challenge to stop the compactor while the heroes inside deal with the monster pulling them under and try to slow the advance of the compactor wall with whatever they can find.
IMO Jackie Chan fights are very rarely minion fights, everytime he hits one of them they return (2 opponents later). He and they take a pasting before falling over.
Reviving minions, perhaps? Certainly a special ability could be devised to allow a minion to stand back up again a few rounds later to represent someone recovering from being knocked flat on his butt.
Reviving minions, perhaps? Certainly a special ability could be devised to allow a minion to stand back up again a few rounds later to represent someone recovering from being knocked flat on his butt.
IMO Jackie Chan fights are very rarely minion fights, everytime he hits one of them they return (2 opponents later). He and they take a pasting before falling over.
Just use you XP budget to buy more minions, and use these extra minions as extra "lives". Easier than trying to go through all the pain of building a new rule for it.
I chucked 40 skeleton minions at a party once, but in hindsight, I think I should have used 10 skeletons with 4 "lives" each, and they just got back up when killed.
Reviving minions, perhaps? Certainly a special ability could be devised to allow a minion to stand back up again a few rounds later to represent someone recovering from being knocked flat on his butt.
IMO Jackie Chan fights are very rarely minion fights, everytime he hits one of them they return (2 opponents later). He and they take a pasting before falling over.Just use you XP budget to buy more minions, and use these extra minions as extra "lives". Easier than trying to go through all the pain of building a new rule for it.
I chucked 40 skeleton minions at a party once, but in hindsight, I think I should have used 10 skeletons with 4 "lives" each, and they just got back up when killed.
Oh - I like that as a house rule. Thats pretty cool. However I'm not sure if having more lives is really worth the XP price. I might use it but reduce the reward for the PCs. In this example the each minion is worth the same as a standard monster of the same level and I serously doubt thats true. 1/2 the value of a standard monster at best really.
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Ok, different part then. How would the part from ep IV go down in 4e, mechanically?
Well, at that point Leia was little more than a young politician. She had her sporting blaster for protection and a lot of guts, but almost no experience as far as combat goes. Meanwhile, the stormtrooper was well-trained and better equipped.
In game mechanics, the stormtrooper is probably a higher-level standard monster with an encounter power to knock a target unconscious (or the like). Leia barely qualifies as a PC - she's 1st-level at best.
Realistically, though, this probably plays out best as a non-combat encounter. Leia doesn't really stand a chance against the Imperial boarding party, and she knows it. Against odds like these, the player and DM could probably agree to simply hand-wave the actual encounter and decide that Leia is quickly brought down with a blaster rifle set to stun.
Sounds good to me, thanks for hashing that out :)