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...they were saying that they thought that actually playing the game counted more than sales (i.e. sales may not reflect the popularity of the game). Quite on topic.
This actually is a decent point to make: sales and popularity only correlate so far.
On the one hand, people may purchase the books and decide after reading through them that they are not going to make use of them in a game.
The best measure of success is how many people are actually playing the game in any given week. Unfortunately, it's a difficult statistic to collect.
Making future product releases equal the sales figures of a core book will result in a lot of unsold stock.I have so many RPGs, as I would pick them up out of curiosity, to read, to pick apart, to tinker with how different systems created different playstyles.
Most of these games have been played rarely, if at all.
Some, we had a short campaign, over a few months.
Some, we played one scenario.
Some, we created PCs and talked up a game that never happened.
Some, we read the rules, went "Hmmm", but nothing more.
Some, we never finished reading.
All these took a distant second place to D&D, of whatever edition. Mainly since the pool of players in the UK was never as great as the USA, we had to often settle for whatever groups we could find, and the best way of ensuring you could fit into a group, was to be familiar with the biggest game in town. It became a self-fulfilling cycle.
I would love to crack open some of the games in my cupboard and take them for a spin, but it's only going to happen if everyone in the group simultaneously has that urge.
Unfortunately, many of the games that people actually rave over, have the opposite reaction from at least one member of the group ()
It was often joked that D&D was played so widely because it was 'everyone's second/third-favourite game'...
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I should also add that the above probably holds true for all editions of D&D (and, indeed, all tabletop role-playing games), and will inevitably also be the case for Pathfinder, when it is released.See, that's a lot better, frankly. Excellent counter-point.I believe their point was that they had purchased the books but did not play the game. Therefore they added to the "4E is doing so well stats", but they were saying that they thought that actually playing the game counted more than sales (i.e. sales may not reflect the popularity of the game). Quite on topic.This actually is a decent point to make: sales and popularity only correlate so far.
On the one hand, people may purchase the books and decide after reading through them that they are not going to make use of them in a game.
On the other hand (and the one I believe occurs far more often), people may not purchase any books and instead make use of books that are communally available (the DM's books, or a friend's books, or a library's books) to play the game.
I believe that the latter is more significant, and that ultimately popularity of 4th Edition is probably underrepresented by sales figures.
Absolutely. Not every game is going to appeal to everyone. I'm sure even a few of Paizo's most ardent supporters may find the game lacking in something they want from an RPG. Nature of the beast.
Add me to the list of "Has the books, but doesn't play with them (much to speak of)."
I got the box set when it came out, then had a $50 Amazon credit that needed to be used so picked up Draconomicon, Adventurer's Vault, & Martial Power, thinking that these might fix what was lacking in the core books. Answer? Sort of, but not really.
I'm running a 3.5 game. I've cherry-picked a few concepts from 4e, but as I've done the same with 1st, 2nd, Pathfinder and even Arduin, I'm hardly going to say that I'm running a 4e game.
I can understand the play mechanic reason for Healing Surges, but the worldbuilding logic? Not so much.
I bought both the core set and the PHB II....too bad they aren't what I was hoping for. So I bought them, added to their sales, but I wont be using them.
Much of this could be the D&D name is stronger then ever. Could mean nothing about how good or well recieved 4.0 is.
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Much of this could be the D&D name is stronger then ever. Could mean nothing about how good or well recieved 4.0 is.
The D&D name was probably strongest in 1986 or '87. 3x and 4e combined probably don't have as many players as 1e did, and I doubt either PHB for 3x or 4e even came close to half of the sales of the 1e PHB, combined. The 1e PHB sold several millions of copies over its run, went through several printings (it was on its sixth printing two years after it was released, the sixth printing was probably the best seller over all) and was, by far, the most sold RPG book ever.
You can compare 3x and 4e in relation to each other, but comparing them to a fad that was in the entire public's conscious is pointless. D&D hasn't been "hot" outside of the core audience in 20 years (sorry, 2e fans). 4e seems to be attracting new players, which is good, but we, as gamers, need to come to the realization that we are in a niche hobby, not a widely popular one, and have been niche for quite some time now.
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I suppose this thread is a bit stale now but here's something to resurrect it a bit.
Anybody noticed a lot of 4E stuff for sale second hand already? There's like 55 'New and Used' 4E PHB for sale, and 158 of PHB3 and PHB3.5 combined (129 PHB3 - a high number I'd expect - and 29 PHB3.5) on Amazon. Plus the 4E PHB starts at $14.97 and 3.5E start at $41.55
There's more 4E PHBs on sale on ebay in my quick search than 3E (yes I clicked on 'Auction' button to screen out 'buy it now' listings from vendors).
I was about to put my 4E stuff up for sale (main 3 books) when I noticed this.
I don't think this bodes well for 4E staying power at all.
3e will be higher as it is out of print. 4E however is still in print.
I don't think this bodes well for 4E staying power at all.
This has no reflection whatsoever on the staying power of 4th Edition.
As seekerofshadowlight pointed out, 4th Edition is in print and selling quite well. Of course there are going to be copies of the game floating around for sale, both new and used. The 4th Edition books will sell for relatively little secondhand because they must be cheaper than the book can be purchased new through retailers like Amazon.com in order to compete. Out of print 3rd Edition books don't have such competition (since they're already out of print), and can thus price themselves independently of major retailers. Furthermore, if secondhand sales of 4th Edition are moving, then it actually reflects well on 4th Edition.
If you really want a metric of 4th Edition's staying power, what you'd want to look at are: sales of recently released supplementary material, organized play data, D&D Insider subscription rates, and other similar measurements. Most of these are difficult (if not impossible) to come by, so actually gauging something like the game's "staying power" isn't something we can do, reliably. It's probably best to avoid speculating on things like that.
I don't think this bodes well for 4E staying power at all.This has no reflection whatsoever on the staying power of 4th Edition.
As seekerofshadowlight pointed out, 4th Edition is in print and selling quite well. Of course there are going to be copies of the game floating around for sale, both new and used. The 4th Edition books will sell for relatively little secondhand because they must be cheaper than the book can be purchased new through retailers like Amazon.com in order to compete. Out of print 3rd Edition books don't have such competition (since they're already out of print), and can thus price themselves independently of major retailers. Furthermore, if secondhand sales of 4th Edition are moving, then it actually reflects well on 4th Edition.
If you really want a metric of 4th Edition's staying power, what you'd want to look at are: sales of recently released supplementary material, organized play data, D&D Insider subscription rates, and other similar measurements. Most of these are difficult (if not impossible) to come by, so actually gauging something like the game's "staying power" isn't something we can do, reliably. It's probably best to avoid speculating on things like that.
There is some dispute as to whether 4e is selling well. 4e PHB is selling poorly, especially if you compare it to other 4e product, which could mean that the 4e market has its lines drawn. 4e could easily end up like M:TG, which I believe is the true roots of the current game design, rather than WoW. By that I mean, it can be very popular among a relatively large group of players, all who need to get the next book to improve their options (read deck). So sales could be higher for splat and power cards than they were with a larger 3e fan base that pretty much just used the core books. Presumably, that would be a success in the eyes of WotC.
Anyway, my FLGS has had a used 4e PHB in perfect condition on sale for a month, for example, and 4e stuff "isn't selling particularly well." I asked, but didn't probe any deeper.
Of course, since nobody who has any good big-picture info is talking, everything is speculation. Those who say 4e is doing well say it is ranked X on the best-seller list, while naysayers explain that you have to sell 7 and a half books in a month to reach that rank, or point out that the rank is based upon the number of books purchased by booksellers (who apparently have a glut of 4e books on their shelves).
I was a big fan of 4e before it came out, bought all of the books and tried to like the game long enough to have 7 4e books and modules on my shelf, and ran a game through many sessions, before switching back to 3.5e. I'm also migrating over to Paizo messageboards, having been on WotC boards since before 3e came out, where I was a fanboi for years, joining the ranks of my grognard brothers and sisters after becoming weary of the 4e awesomeness. So take my comments with as much bias as you believe is merited. I try to be objective.
There is some dispute as to whether 4e is selling well.
Not from any reliable source of metric that I'm aware of.
4e PHB is selling poorly, especially if you compare it to other 4e product, which could mean that the 4e market has its lines drawn.
Amazon.com has the 4e Core book set ranked 3rd in all fantasy gaming products, behind the PHB2 and Arcane Power, the two books most recently released. The PHB is ranked 6th. I'm not sure what metric you're using, but it's pretty clear that, on Amazon, the PHB is selling rather well when measured against other 4th Edition products. Unless you'd like to share a new way of discerning how well something is or is not selling, I don't think you have any cause to make the above claim.
4e could easily end up like M:TG, which I believe is the true roots of the current game design, rather than WoW. By that I mean, it can be very popular among a relatively large group of players, all who need to get the next book to improve their options (read deck). So sales could be higher for splat and power cards than they were with a larger 3e fan base that pretty much just used the core books. Presumably, that would be a success in the eyes of WotC.
Anyway, my FLGS has had a used 4e PHB in perfect condition on sale for a month, for example, and 4e stuff "isn't selling particularly well." I asked, but didn't probe any deeper.
It's no secret that people aren't exactly flocking to local game stores for their 4th Edition products. When large book retailer chains like Barnes & Noble and Borders actively stock a wide array of D&D products, and they're available for nearly half off online, only the most dedicated, loyal (or clueless) gamers will decide that their FLGS is worth wasting $15 per book on.
Of course, since nobody who has any good big-picture info is talking, everything is speculation. Those who say 4e is doing well say it is ranked X on the best-seller list, while naysayers explain that you have to sell 7 and a half books in a month to reach that rank, or point out that the rank is based upon the number of books purchased by booksellers (who apparently have a glut of 4e books on their shelves).
That's nice, but neither of those "naysayer" claims stacks up against what we know of recent releases (especially the PHB2).
Regardless of what version of the game I'm currently supporting, my personal preference isn't really based on sales, so I always find it interesting when people seem to want to validate their choices with sales figures.
When I was more of a video gamer, I disliked certain "must have" games and it really didn't mean anything to me that said game sold millions of units. The fact that most people that owned a Gamecube never played Eternal Darkness never really changed my opinions that it was one of the best games ever released for the system.
My friend that owns a FLGS has said that 4E is one of the few things he can count on to sell consistently and that he is comfortable stocking on a regular basis. Other stores may not have this same fan base, and that's kind of the point.
In the big picture, I actually don't want 4E to do badly because it will have an effect on the industry if it doesn't do well. D&D is the gateway game for tabletop RP for many, many gamers, and without it our hobby is likely to become even smaller and more "niche" than it already is.
For anyone that wants to compare the popularity of a given edition based on sales, there is a bit of a quirk when it comes to marketing over the years. When I was playing 1st edition AD&D and BECMI before it, it was pretty common for only the DM to have any books at all. Each subsequent edition has created more incentive for books to be purchased by people other than the DM, so that more books could sell to a smaller audience.
I think that WOTC did some really, really stupid things in marketing 4E, and I think their handling of FR was amazingly bad, but upon reading more recent blurbs from WOTC, and reading Scott Rouse's comments at GAMA and some of his follow up on EN World, and a few other recent comments, I don't think that WOTC is continuing the "lets follow this course no matter how much some people complain."
I think that even though 4E is doing well (and I'll take them at their word for that because I have no reason to doubt this), I do think they realize now that it could have been doing even better had they not alienated a large part of the active gaming base. Will they do the right things to fix this perception? Only time will tell, but I think its a bit reactionary to assume that WOTC will never listen to anyone.
Is it possible based on past moves (including the PDF fiasco) that corporate thinking will get in the way of WOTC's newfound appreciation of those they left behind? Only time will tell.
I guess that's a long winded way of saying, play the game you like, and it may be kind of pointless to try and figure out sales since most companies aren't too quick to give out the kind of details we seem to want to pick apart.
And now the 3.5 Edition Dungeon Masters Guide and Monster Manual are beating 4th Edition's sales ranks on Amazon. Player's Handbook 4th Edition still has a lead, although it isn't a big lead.
Huh? There are still 11 4th Edition products ahead of even the first 3.5 product on Amazon's bestselling role playing & fantasy games listings, and that's for the Player's Handbook.
Thought we had established Amazon. ranks mean almost nothing.
Good point there.
Thought we had established Amazon. ranks mean almost nothing.
Yes, we had.
Much of this could be the D&D name is stronger then ever. Could mean nothing about how good or well recieved 4.0 is.The D&D name was probably strongest in 1986 or '87. 3x and 4e combined probably don't have as many players as 1e did, and I doubt either PHB for 3x or 4e even came close to half of the sales of the 1e PHB, combined. The 1e PHB sold several millions of copies over its run, went through several printings (it was on its sixth printing two years after it was released, the sixth printing was probably the best seller over all) and was, by far, the most sold RPG book ever.
You can compare 3x and 4e in relation to each other, but comparing them to a fad that was in the entire public's conscious is pointless. D&D hasn't been "hot" outside of the core audience in 20 years (sorry, 2e fans). 4e seems to be attracting new players, which is good, but we, as gamers, need to come to the realization that we are in a niche hobby, not a widely popular one, and have been niche for quite some time now.
True. Back in the day you could buy D&D books are Toys 'R' Us, I still have a few with their price sticker on them. 86-87 my high school years cover that, and it was bigger then but I am never sure if that is only preception because back then I simply knew more people playing it.
I still love 1st ed, still own all the books some in very poor shape. Luckily I have PDFs of them all I bought before WoTC went postal on PDFs.
