RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Here is the "pro" PC definition (and there's a quiz, too!).
Here's the "anti" PC definition. (Sorry, no quiz).
The 'anti' PC definition was not a definition. It basically defined PC as any ideology that the authors disagreed with. Bit of a cheat, that.
The 'pro' PC definition is workable but wouldn't include many of the things we've been talking about in this thread.
Sorry Derek, but I find you guilty of failing to properly define your terms and sentence you to walk the plank.
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Tarren. PC, as practiced in the U.S. world of "academia" and the "mainstream media", is the systematic and deliberate suppression of speech that does not conform to "Progressive" philosophy. I'm sorry if you disagree that the "anti" PC example doesn't fit your mold, but, as far as I'm concerned, the "pro" example is a mirror image.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Tarren. PC, as practiced in the U.S. world of "academia" and the "mainstream media", is the systematic and deliberate suppression of speech that does not conform to "Progressive" philosophy. I'm sorry if you disagree that the "anti" PC example doesn't fit your mold, but, as far as I'm concerned, the "pro" example is a mirror image.
Okay, we're back to speech. I can work with that. For a while I thought we were talking about fashion, hiring policies, and all sorts of other stuff.
We agree about the suppression speech. And, I'll go you one further. I object to the deliberate suppression of all speech if it is being suppressed because it doesn't fit a particular ideological philosophy, progressive or not.
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The thing is, the speech affects everything else. Standards were lowered in the military (women take an easier PT test, for one), and standards were lowered for women in law enforcement and firefighting. They were lowered because it wasn't "fair" (i.e. "PC") to exclude people of one gender from some jobs just because they couldn't pass the required physical tests.
The point is, the speech component of "PC" has mutated into the areas you pointed out, effectively saying it isn't "PC" to say women cannot do a job just because they cannot pass the physical tests.
If you were in a burning house, and weighed 200+ pounds, would you rather have a man who had to pass very stringent strength tests to find you, or a woman who was allowed to take a test with lower standards, and who is not physically strong enough to sling 200 pounds over their shoulder and run down three flights of stairs?
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Tarren, I see stories every day about "free speech" being suppressed if it doesn't meet liberal standards. What prompted the British government to disallow Geert Wilders to address Parliament and show Fitna? Political Correctness. Fear of offending Muslims. Why had GB adopted sharia courts for civil matters (effectively disallowing Muslim women the same rights as British women in civil matters)? Political Correctness. The fear of offending Muslims.
Why was Amenjinidad allowed to speak at Colombia University, but John Bolton wasn't? PC. Conservative speech = "hate speech" as far as most American universities are concerned.
Cornell University shut down a pro-life display even though the student group obtained permission from the school. They allow pro-choice rallies, however.
Derek, I see those stories too. I struggle with those attitudes in my classes. I've got students on one side who throw labels 'sexist' and 'racist' around and students on the other who don't know why they have to hear that 'PC-shit'. They don't want to listen so, instead of covering their ears, they try to get the other person to shut up.
Now, you and I disagree on stuff, but we listen to each other and disagree civilly, right?
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Tarren, I see stories every day about "free speech" being suppressed if it doesn't meet liberal standards. What prompted the British government to disallow Geert Wilders to address Parliament and show Fitna? Political Correctness. Fear of offending Muslims. Why had GB adopted sharia courts for civil matters (effectively disallowing Muslim women the same rights as British women in civil matters)? Political Correctness. The fear of offending Muslims.
Why was Amenjinidad allowed to speak at Colombia University, but John Bolton wasn't? PC. Conservative speech = "hate speech" as far as most American universities are concerned.
Cornell University shut down a pro-life display even though the student group obtained permission from the school. They allow pro-choice rallies, however.
Derek, I see those stories too. I struggle with those attitudes in my classes. I've got students on one side who throw labels 'sexist' and 'racist' around and students on the other who don't know why they have to hear that 'PC-s~~*'. They don't want to listen so, instead of covering their ears, they try to get the other person to shut up.
Now, you and I disagree on stuff, but we listen to each other and disagree civilly, right?
The difference is, we are mature enough to see past our political labels, and see each other as intelligent equals who have reasonable, raional disagreements on the best way to secure the same goal, which is to improve the quality of life for as many people as possible in a free, open society.
It is something a lot of people need to learn, frankly.
Firefighter, combat soldier (particularly infantry), police officer, any job where physical strength is a large part of the job. There are women physically strong enough to pass the PT tests that existed before the PC movement took hold. To lower the standards of those tests to allow more women to qualify, particularly in the firefighting field, opens up the potential that someone may die because political correctness allowed someone who cannot pass the test that men have to take.
By that standard, we allow sexism to interfere with our military and/or SWAT capabilities by not having a lot more females... something about hand-eye linkups; I'm led to understand that very good female shooters almost always outshoot very good males, up until you get up into the "win the Marine invitational competition" level -- at which so few people operate that your sample sizes are too small to say anything one way or the other, statistically-speaking. And ancient Thebes would consider us absolutely moronic not to intentionally create homosexual military units (then again, Alexander wiped them out, so maybe they were wrong after all).
I've got students on one side who throw labels 'sexist' and 'racist' around and students on the other who don't know why they have to hear that 'PC-s*~*'. They don't want to listen so, instead of covering their ears, they try to get the other person to shut up.
Heh. Had a student who got a 4% on his first test in my class; he pulled the race card. One of the other black students grinned and said, "Man, you claim God's a racist when you forget an umbrella and your dumb ass gets rained on."
What I was really impressed to see was that this was something of an icebreaker for some of the more antisocial students; everyone got along a lot better after that and we all had a good year in class. I think Travis even managed to pass, once he actually started studying. In any event, he tore up the transfer card to another class he'd been filling out.
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Firefighter, combat soldier (particularly infantry), police officer, any job where physical strength is a large part of the job. There are women physically strong enough to pass the PT tests that existed before the PC movement took hold. To lower the standards of those tests to allow more women to qualify, particularly in the firefighting field, opens up the potential that someone may die because political correctness allowed someone who cannot pass the test that men have to take.By that standard, we allow sexism to interfere with our military and/or SWAT capabilities by not having a lot more females... something about hand-eye linkups; I'm led to understand that very good female shooters almost always outshoot very good males, up until you get up into the "win the Marine invitational competition" level -- at which so few people operate that your sample sizes are too small to say anything one way or the other, statistically-speaking. And ancient Thebes would consider us absolutely moronic not to intentionally create homosexual military units (then again, Alexander wiped them out, so maybe they were wrong after all).
Good point. We had a lot of problems in Basic and A.I.T. (and at the units after training, for that matter) between some straight guys and gay guys. Some of the straight guys wouldn't shower at the same time as the gay guys, they said it wasn't any more fair than if they were allowed to shower with women.
Of course, the gay community were of the opinion that it was a non-issue, since, apparently, gay men aren't like straight men, in that, if they were naked and surrounded by very in shape, naked members of a gender they're attracted to, they'd never peek or be aroused in the slightest. I don't know about anyone else, but I think (forget that, I know) if I were in a shower room with a bunch of nekkid hotties, I'd be in hog heaven.
I don't know about anyone else, but I think (forget that, I know) if I were in a shower room with a bunch of nekkid hotties, I'd be in hog heaven.
Like in the "Starship Troopers" movie? Yeah, I'd suddenly become very clean and well-groomed, but ya know, I also think (forget that, I know) that I could enjoy the eye candy without somehow magically losing my ability to restrain myself from grabbing or harrassing any of my co-showerers.
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I don't know about anyone else, but I think (forget that, I know) if I were in a shower room with a bunch of nekkid hotties, I'd be in hog heaven.Like in the "Starship Troopers" movie? Yeah, I'd suddenly become very clean and well-groomed, but ya know, I also think (forget that, I know) that I could enjoy the eye candy without somehow magically losing my ability to restrain myself from grabbing or harrassing any of my co-showerers.
The point is, there is no way in Hades men and women would be allowed to shower together, for obvious reasons.
When I was in A.I.T., one of our gay platoon-mates came back from the weekend pass with a shiner. Before the weekend, no one knew he was gay. He got some signals from another dude in our unit crossed, and thought the guy was passively flirting with him. They went out with two other guys and got a room for a home-base for partying during the pass. At the end of the night, when everyone was drunk, dude slipped up and tried to kiss the guy he thought was flirting with him. It didn't end well. All involved covered it up (the guy was cool and no one wanted him to get thrown out so they said it was a bar fight and they bailed before the cops showed up) but it highlighted the need for people not to make assumptions.
The point is, gay men are still men, and still act like men (the nelly stuff is an act usually, from what I've been told), and are just as big horndogs as straight men.
If gay men are going to be in the military, everyone has to be open about the whole thing. If everything is established up front, a lot of the more problematic situations could be avoided.
Edit: If you can't figure out that "Don't ask, don't tell" is stupid, I do. No one should have to hide their sexuality to serve their country.
Erik, oh, yeah, I just found out today J.J. holds a blackbelt. We really need to get that cage match going!
Yeah, I never took the test for black, because I spent the $150 on more lessons instead of on a new belt.
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Erik, oh, yeah, I just found out today J.J. holds a blackbelt. We really need to get that cage match going!Yeah, I never took the test for black, because I spent the $150 on more lessons instead of on a new belt.
We were having that discussion today. Learning a martial art is a good way to train, but skill only takes you so far, and belts don't mean squat without the proper aggressive attitude. I've beaten the crap out of guys with blackbelts before, they thought their kung-fu was a substitute for really wanting to hurt someone. They forgot that experience doesn't have to come from a dojo...
We were having that discussion today. Learning a martial art is a good way to train, but skill only takes you so far, and belts don't mean squat without the proper aggressive attitude. I've beaten the crap out of guys with blackbelts before, they thought their kung-fu was a substitute for really wanting to hurt someone. They forgot that experience doesn't have to come from a dojo...
Yeah, practice is just that; it means exactly zero unless sometimes the other guy is actually trying to put you in the ground.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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I don't know about anyone else, but I think (forget that, I know) if I were in a shower room with a bunch of nekkid hotties, I'd be in hog heaven.Like in the "Starship Troopers" movie? Yeah, I'd suddenly become very clean and well-groomed, but ya know, I also think (forget that, I know) that I could enjoy the eye candy without somehow magically losing my ability to restrain myself from grabbing or harrassing any of my co-showerers.
Have you seen 'Dollhouse'?
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Have you seen 'Dollhouse'?I don't know about anyone else, but I think (forget that, I know) if I were in a shower room with a bunch of nekkid hotties, I'd be in hog heaven.Like in the "Starship Troopers" movie? Yeah, I'd suddenly become very clean and well-groomed, but ya know, I also think (forget that, I know) that I could enjoy the eye candy without somehow magically losing my ability to restrain myself from grabbing or harrassing any of my co-showerers.
Good flick. Good point. Edit: The becoming aware part.
Have you seen 'Dollhouse'?
The show on Fox? Or the movie with Heather Matarazzo? Or something else? No (whichever way). Do tell!
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Why had GB adopted sharia courts for civil matters (effectively disallowing Muslim women the same rights as British women in civil matters)? Political Correctness. The fear of offending Muslims.
Funny, a feminist professor friend was talking about sharia courts in Great Britain with me on Tuesday. She objected to them too but she argued that it was a kind of benign racism that was responsible--a middle of the road perspective that says "They're so different that the same laws can't apply to them." I don't know enough about them to comment one way or the other.
I think the label 'political correctness' gets stretched a bit too thin when it is applied to any attempt at inclusion associated with progressive politics.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Have you seen 'Dollhouse'?The show on Fox? No (either way). Do tell!
Well, basically the extremely attractive but kind of lobotomized mercenaries/secret agents/dolls shower together regularly. They have been programmed not to have sex drives but one of them keeps getting a pudgy.
Well, basically the extremely attractive but kind of lobotomized mercenaries/secret agents/dolls shower together regularly. They have been programmed not to have sex drives but one of them keeps getting a pudgy.
Odd; in Germany I was in a Hallenbath (indoor pool) in which everyone was naked, and after about a minute it was difficult to remember what the big deal was supposed to be -- certainly no one was sporting a boner. I guess it depends on if your culture automatically equates all nudity with sex (which not all do).
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Why had GB adopted sharia courts for civil matters (effectively disallowing Muslim women the same rights as British women in civil matters)? Political Correctness. The fear of offending Muslims.
Funny, a feminist professor friend was talking about sharia courts in Great Britain with me on Tuesday. She objected to them too but she argued that it was a kind of benign racism that was responsible--a middle of the road perspective that says "They're so different that the same laws can't apply to them." I don't know enough about them to comment one way or the other.
I think the label 'political correctness' gets stretched a bit too thin when it is applied to any attempt at inclusion associated with progressive politics.
Having a completely different civil legal system in one country for a particular culture is hardly "inclusive".
You have to wonder about the superiority of European culture when they seem to have so much more trouble assimilating immigrants from different cultures than the U.S. does.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Why had GB adopted sharia courts for civil matters (effectively disallowing Muslim women the same rights as British women in civil matters)? Political Correctness. The fear of offending Muslims.
Funny, a feminist professor friend was talking about sharia courts in Great Britain with me on Tuesday. She objected to them too but she argued that it was a kind of benign racism that was responsible--a middle of the road perspective that says "They're so different that the same laws can't apply to them." I don't know enough about them to comment one way or the other.
I think the label 'political correctness' gets stretched a bit too thin when it is applied to any attempt at inclusion associated with progressive politics.
Having a completely different civil legal system in one country for a particular culture is hardly "inclusive".
You have to wonder about the superiority of European culture when they seem to have so much more trouble assimilating immigrants from different cultures than the U.S. does.
I assumed that this system was available but not required. Are you telling me that a muslim woman in Great Britain could not appeal to a non-sharia civil court? I assumed she could.
From what little I know of these, I'm a bit divided. If we are talking about the kind of civil court action where people choose engage in a civil action against each other, and if both agree to have their suit heard in a sharia court, and if there is not social pressures that would push one to agree to a sharia court hearing, than I am no more opposed to this than I am to Judge Judy.
If, on the other hand, some people are being pressured to enter into an alternative legal system and given little opportunity to be protected by the laws available to others, than no, I would be opposed.
I really don't know enough about it though.
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I really don't know enough about it though.
Holy smoke! I've never seen those words posted on a political or religious discussion thread before... I thought it was vogue for everyone to claim omniscience, and to present their opinions as facts?
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I really don't know enough about it though.Holy smoke! I've never seen those words posted on a political or religious discussion thread before... I thought it was vogue for everyone to claim omniscience, and to present their opinions as facts?
I think it has been said quite a few times, but yeah "omniscience" does seem predominate at times. on every view point.
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No, we're talking ALL civil actions. Inheritance, divorce, domestic violence* (wait, that is a criminal matter, why is it going to Sharia court?), every aspect of day to day life, are all handled in Sharia courts. Having a different civil legal system for Muslims pretty much invalidates the principle of equal rights under the Law.
*Muslim men, in Sharia court, get sentenced to anger management classes. Non-Muslim Brits get to go to jail.
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From what little I know of these, I'm a bit divided. If we are talking about the kind of civil court action where people choose engage in a civil action against each other, and if both agree to have their suit heard in a sharia court, and if there is not social pressures that would push one to agree to a sharia court hearing, than I am no more opposed to this than I am to Judge Judy.
Minor problem. There is a huge amount of social pressure on Muslim women to submit (btw, "Islam" MEANS "To Submit" in Arabic - it is literally against their religion not to submit to the will of Allah, which is what Sharia courts are, courts to determine the will of Allah in these matters) to Sharia courts. If they do not submit, they face considerable anger from their community.
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Yeah, practice is just that; it means exactly zero unless sometimes the other guy is actually trying to put you in the ground.
What about doing your black belt test with a fractured humerus and damaged rotator cuff that makes it impossible to take an impact on one arm without nearly blacking out, and then catching a fist on the jaw that should be a knockout punch but being too hyped on adrenaline to fall down?
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Yeah, practice is just that; it means exactly zero unless sometimes the other guy is actually trying to put you in the ground.What about doing your black belt test with a fractured humerus and damaged rotator cuff that makes it impossible to take an impact on one arm without nearly blacking out, and then catching a fist on the jaw that should be a knockout punch but being too hyped on adrenaline to fall down?
Well, if the adrenaline triggers the "fight" reflex, that could be quite handy in a fight. Of course, the adrenaline crash afterward, when you get to feel that pain in earnest, well, that's a b**$~...
;)
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Well, if the adrenaline triggers the "fight" reflex, that could be quite handy in a fight. Of course, the adrenaline crash afterward, when you get to feel that pain in earnest, well, that's a b#!*%...
;)
No pain.
Just that total collapse-dazed feeling, wondering what hit me, then rememembering the punch from 5 minutes ago.Fortunately I was sitting at the time. The fall to the floor had I been standing would likely have been less than pleasant.
Fighting offends me.
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Well, if the adrenaline triggers the "fight" reflex, that could be quite handy in a fight. Of course, the adrenaline crash afterward, when you get to feel that pain in earnest, well, that's a b#!*%...
;)
No pain.
Just that total collapse-dazed feeling, wondering what hit me, then rememembering the punch from 5 minutes ago.
Fortunately I was sitting at the time. The fall to the floor had I been standing would likely have been less than pleasant.
Mild concussions tend to dull pain as well. Dude must have hit the button with a vengeance. Did you make fun of his pekingese puppy?
What about doing your black belt test with a fractured humerus and damaged rotator cuff that makes it impossible to take an impact on one arm without nearly blacking out, and then catching a fist on the jaw that should be a knockout punch but being too hyped on adrenaline to fall down?
Well, as I used to tell my black belts: good thing you have two arms. And why the heck are you letting people hit you in the jaw?
;)
Fighting offends me.Pacifists offend me.
:)
Doesn't mean I'm a pacifist.
;)
Kumite is no fun until someone gets hurt.
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Mild concussions tend to dull pain as well. Dude must have hit the button with a vengeance. Did you make fun of his pekingese puppy?
I do not think I had a concussion that time. That came later, after yet another blow to my left temple area.
He was actually genuinely concerned about me. There are many others I would have been significantly less forgiving of.|
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Well, as I used to tell my black belts: good thing you have two arms. And why the heck are you letting people hit you in the jaw?
;)
It is a good thing I have two arms! The problem was, learning to fight one-handed in six weeks. (It was six weeks before the test was scheduled that I blew out my shoulder.)
And it was 10 minutes into a 15 minute endurance session. The insides of my lips were all cut from light shots across my face, but that was the only significant shot that got through.So thhhpppttt!!!!!!!!
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Kumite is no fun until someone gets hurt.
Yeah, see . . .
I know way too many people who actually think that way, combined with having a significantly low appreciation for the cranial integrity of the people they kumite with.This of course contrasts with the select people I know that have actual control, and consider an injury of another an indictment of their skill.
You want full speed, I will (well, used to) go full speed.
You want actual targets, not reduced targets, I would go actual targets.
With people I really trusted, I even did hardwood bo, tonfa, and bokken, and steel sai.
You want injuries, there is a support beam over there with a makiwara mounted for decoration. Walk past it, go outside, find an I-beam, and knock yourself out on someone else's time and premises.
Or I know some people who know some street gangs you can get yourself beaten into if that is what floats your boat.
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What you are discribing isn't PC, that is Sexual discrimination legislation, and frankly it was needed.
I am sorry but PC has no teeth beyond behaviour by individuals.
Really? Are you sure? You mean that “political correctness” NEVER has anything to do with any sort of discriminatory stance like sexism, racism, or any other? Wow - color me confused.
And no teeth? Were you there? Did I miss seeing you somewhere on McNair? I can't recall you sitting in the briefings where I was told that if I said ANYTHING that could be interpreted as offensive by the receiver (even something innocuous as a glance in their direction), regardless of what I may have MEANT by it, that I could be facing all sorts of charges. In fact, I don't recall you serving with me when I and others would deliberately avoid females in uniform that we worked quite well with before because you were worried about your own career, or we would be in a club, ask a girl to dance, hear her American accent as she said she'd love to only to have you apologize and immediately walk off because she's now a threat.
PC has real teeth. Its basis - fair treatment for all - is a good ideal. As with all good ideals it is easily perverted by those who would like to enforce their own personal agenda under the guise of PC.
I lived those times. You can put forward whatever views you feel, but if you weren't there to experience it you are doing nothing but vain supposition. Do not assume that I will allow you to interpret for me what I experienced. You do not have that right.
Odd; in Germany I was in a Hallenbath (indoor pool) in which everyone was naked, and after about a minute it was difficult to remember what the big deal was supposed to be -- certainly no one was sporting a boner. I guess it depends on if your culture automatically equates all nudity with sex (which not all do).
Indeed a very cultural thing: In Germany mixed baths and saunas are commonplace, many of them nude. In Finland mixed saunas are uncommon but not unheard of. And generally the attitude to nudity is more relaxed.
And let's face it, few women look their best when in sauna, all red and sweaty and without makeup and hair a mess...
I'd also point out that people can show some restraint. Sure, in those situations people look at each other but there is a difference between glancing and staring/grabbing. The difference between good and bad manners.
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Odd; in Germany I was in a Hallenbath (indoor pool) in which everyone was naked, and after about a minute it was difficult to remember what the big deal was supposed to be -- certainly no one was sporting a boner. I guess it depends on if your culture automatically equates all nudity with sex (which not all do).Indeed a very cultural thing: In Germany mixed baths and saunas are commonplace, many of them nude. In Finland mixed saunas are uncommon but not unheard of. And generally the attitude to nudity is more relaxed.
And let's face it, few women look their best when in sauna, all red and sweaty and without makeup and hair a mess...
I'd also point out that people can show some restraint. Sure, in those situations people look at each other but there is a difference between glancing and staring/grabbing. The difference between good and bad manners.
Personally, I tend to steer clear of publich nudity. One of the drawbacks to being undead - the worms, the maggots, things falling off......it just isn't a pretty picture.
Did someone say, “Public bath?”