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I am playing around with the idea of using some of the good bits of 4E D&D...yes there is some...mind you *SOME* for my 3.5E. Mind you I am loving the Pathfinder RPG. They really moved the game into new realms that I feel improved the game. What I am talking about are things like roles. Instead of classifying it like old school 1E and 2E with Warrior, Wizard, Priest and Thief or Adventurer, Arcane, Divine and Warrior I was thinking of by "power source" and/or "role" like in 4E. Here is a sample of what I got so far. Some are obviously done already....oh...BTW...no BARD, PALADIN or RANGER in my game...they are prestige classes. I am using the option from Unearthed Arcana for the prestige class version of those. Some classes I have no experiance in my game, I have only read them. I use normally in my game all the core classes, except the ones outlined plus we have had a Favored Soul (started as a Fighter and multiclassed into it) and Scout (started as a Druid and multiclassed into it)
Take a look at the list below and tell me what you all think.
BY NAME: Barbarian, Cleric, Druid, Favored Soul, Fighter, Hexblade,
Marshal, Monk, Rogue, Scout, Sorcerer, Spellthief, Swashbuckler, Warlock,Warmage,Wizard
Controlers: Druid, Favored Soul, Wizard
Defenders: Fighter, Hexblade, Monk, Warmage
Leaders: Cleric, Marshal, Sorcerer
Strikers: Barbarian, Rogue, Scout, Spellthief,Swashbuckler,Warlock
Arcane: Hexblade, Sorcerer, Spellthief, Warlock, Warmage, Wizard
Divine: Cleric, Favored Soul, Monk
Martial: Fighter, Marshal, Rogue, Swashbuckler
Primal: Barbarian, Druid, Scout
So you say that bards, rangers and paladins are PrCs, but stuff like a Marshal, Hexblade, Warmage or Spellthief are base classes?
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I was trying for about two hours trying to explain things...I realized I should add this link.
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/community/gaming/dnd/pimpMyCampaignRac eIssues&page=1#14
This explains a bit of the game background with the Great War, how things are different yet the same as any other campaign setting.
Anyhow...with that out of the way and now you have a better idea about the campaign here is what I got.
So you say that bards, rangers and paladins are PrCs, but stuff like a Marshal, Hexblade, Warmage or Spellthief are base classes?
Yes. To be honest I am on the fence about the Bard. I don't have some super secret society of flute players or anything resembling the Harpers in my game world. Although I have a few ideas for that I am tossing around as well as two versions of the prestige class. One "bard" prestige class per Unearthed Arcana and one "troubadour" which is a non-spell using version that makes up for lack of spells with other abilities.
As for paladin...yes...I think it should be a prestige class in this case since clerics are the military arm of the Church and the paladin as the paragon of it. Blackguard is a prestige class...why not paladin?
Rangers...well...similar idea as the paladin and bard. They are either part of the quasi legal druidic faith or a superb woodsman. I have a magical and non-spell using versions.
Marshals and Warmage is a core class and fit in with the Elf/Human War and later on the Great War. I figured they'd fit into the campaign pretty good. Most of the players said that in this case they'd work.
Hexblade and Spellthief are in the same boat as Sorcerers. They are much less common but are inborn natural spellcasters. Someone not born to it can gain the class but there better be a great in game reason as to it. Hexblades are MUCH more common among Unhumans then any other race. Spelltheives tend to be lumped in with sorcerers in terms of how the Church treats them. The nobles have seen a use for them and it is rumored there is a secret training camp that they maintain, far from the prying eyes of the Church.
Anyhow...that's what I got. What's y'alls thoughts?
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I really don't know what catergorizing the classes into power sources and roles does for your 3.5 game. The only benefit I see is using it to help new players understand what makes a balanced and successful party. Other than that, I really don't see why this is useful. Even in 4th edition, power source is largely flavor with little mechanical impact. If you want to modify the classes to better fit their role, then you have a pretty big task ahead of you that is probably more trouble than it is worth. If you want to use things like saving throws instead of durations and the way 4E does recharging of breath weapons, etc., that might be useful.
An idea that has went well (for DM and Player) is to steal a version of 4E minions. Any time the players encounter creatures that are 5 or CR lower then them give them a save per hit to stay alive.
I use a d6 track with a equal to or more to stay alive.
2 (tough, tough creature. Will take a few hits to die)
3 (tough creature. Will take a few hits to die)
4 (durable creature. Will take usually more then one hit)
5 (standard creature. Will take usually more then one hit)
6 (Fodder. Wont survive more then one hit often.)
and after each successful save the creature moves up one on the save track (4 ->5, etc)
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An idea that has went well (for DM and Player) is to steal a version of 4E minions. Any time the players encounter creatures that are 5 or CR lower then them give them a save per hit to stay alive.
I use a d6 track with a equal to or more to stay alive.
2 (tough, tough creature. Will take a few hits to die)
3 (tough creature. Will take a few hits to die)
4 (durable creature. Will take usually more then one hit)
5 (standard creature. Will take usually more then one hit)
6 (Fodder. Wont survive more then one hit often.)and after each successful save the creature moves up one on the save track (4 ->5, etc)
That sounds awfully complicated for a minion. Might as well just keep track of hp. I'm not trying to be too critical, but isn't the whole point of minions that they die after one hit so you have less bookkeeping and can throw more of them at the PC's? I have comtemplated having "minion" creatures drop if they take half of their hp or more in one hit. That might be a better way to do it.
I have used 'one hit' and 'two hit' minions before. Once you get into 'three hit', it just seems you might as well be keeping track of hit points.
That sounds awfully complicated for a minion. Might as well just keep track of hp. I'm not trying to be too critical, but isn't the whole point of minions that they die after one hit so you have less bookkeeping and can throw more of them at the PC's? I have comtemplated having "minion" creatures drop if they take half of their hp or more in one hit. That might be a better way to do it.An idea that has went well (for DM and Player) is to steal a version of 4E minions. Any time the players encounter creatures that are 5 or CR lower then them give them a save per hit to stay alive.
I use a d6 track with a equal to or more to stay alive.
2 (tough, tough creature. Will take a few hits to die)
3 (tough creature. Will take a few hits to die)
4 (durable creature. Will take usually more then one hit)
5 (standard creature. Will take usually more then one hit)
6 (Fodder. Wont survive more then one hit often.)and after each successful save the creature moves up one on the save track (4 ->5, etc)
I found it easy. Ran 30 minions vs the party of five easily enough. Giving them a "save" kept the illusion of HP. Also most of my "minions" start with a 5 save.
I am playing around with the idea of using some of the good bits of 4E D&D...yes there is some...mind you *SOME* for my 3.5E. Mind you I am loving the Pathfinder RPG. They really moved the game into new realms that I feel improved the game. What I am talking about are things like roles. Instead of classifying it like old school 1E and 2E with Warrior, Wizard, Priest and Thief or Adventurer, Arcane, Divine and Warrior I was thinking of by "power source" and/or "role" like in 4E. Here is a sample of what I got so far. Some are obviously done already....oh...BTW...no BARD, PALADIN or RANGER in my game...they are prestige classes. I am using the option from Unearthed Arcana for the prestige class version of those. Some classes I have no experiance in my game, I have only read them. I use normally in my game all the core classes, except the ones outlined plus we have had a Favored Soul (started as a Fighter and multiclassed into it) and Scout (started as a Druid and multiclassed into it)
Take a look at the list below and tell me what you all think.
BY NAME: Barbarian, Cleric, Druid, Favored Soul, Fighter, Hexblade,
Marshal, Monk, Rogue, Scout, Sorcerer, Spellthief, Swashbuckler, Warlock,Warmage,WizardControlers: Druid, Favored Soul, Wizard
Defenders: Fighter, Hexblade, Monk, Warmage
Leaders: Cleric, Marshal, Sorcerer
Strikers: Barbarian, Rogue, Scout, Spellthief,Swashbuckler,WarlockArcane: Hexblade, Sorcerer, Spellthief, Warlock, Warmage, Wizard
Divine: Cleric, Favored Soul, Monk
Martial: Fighter, Marshal, Rogue, Swashbuckler
Primal: Barbarian, Druid, Scout
I think the warmage should be a controller or maybe a striker, he is more about offense than defense. Favored soul is just a variant of cleric so he should be a leader (although he could be built for a different role). I would also add Archivist as a controller or maybe leader and dread necromancer as a leader. While I can see the Paladin as a Prc I think the Ranger and Bard should remain as core classes as a Striker and Leader respectively.
The idea of minions and solo monsters is something I like, they could be added as templates maybe. F.ex Minion -2 CR, Any HP loss kills the minion, Minions always deal average damage, and Solo always max HP, +5 to all ability scores one extra standard or move action each round, +2 Enhancement bonus to attack rolls, AC and saves, CR +2
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I am playing around with the idea of using some of the good bits of 4E D&D...yes there is some...mind you *SOME* for my 3.5E. Mind you I am loving the Pathfinder RPG. They really moved the game into new realms that I feel improved the game. What I am talking about are things like roles. Instead of classifying it like old school 1E and 2E with Warrior, Wizard, Priest and Thief or Adventurer, Arcane, Divine and Warrior I was thinking of by "power source" and/or "role" like in 4E. Here is a sample of what I got so far. Some are obviously done already....oh...BTW...no BARD, PALADIN or RANGER in my game...they are prestige classes. I am using the option from Unearthed Arcana for the prestige class version of those. Some classes I have no experiance in my game, I have only read them. I use normally in my game all the core classes, except the ones outlined plus we have had a Favored Soul (started as a Fighter and multiclassed into it) and Scout (started as a Druid and multiclassed into it)
Take a look at the list below and tell me what you all think.
BY NAME: Barbarian, Cleric, Druid, Favored Soul, Fighter, Hexblade,
Marshal, Monk, Rogue, Scout, Sorcerer, Spellthief, Swashbuckler, Warlock,Warmage,WizardControlers: Druid, Favored Soul, Wizard
Defenders: Fighter, Hexblade, Monk, Warmage
Leaders: Cleric, Marshal, Sorcerer
Strikers: Barbarian, Rogue, Scout, Spellthief,Swashbuckler,WarlockArcane: Hexblade, Sorcerer, Spellthief, Warlock, Warmage, Wizard
Divine: Cleric, Favored Soul, Monk
Martial: Fighter, Marshal, Rogue, Swashbuckler
Primal: Barbarian, Druid, Scout
I still don't know what benefit this chart gives you are your players, but favored soul is clearly a leader, and warmages are definitely controllers. Sorcerers are controllers not leaders. Monks are closer to a striker than a defender, and are martial not divine. Barbarians are kind of defender/striker hybrid. Hexblades are a controller/defender hybrid. Fighters are probably a striker/defender hybrid as well. There really are no "defender" classes in 3.5. To be a defender in the 4th edition sense, a class has to have class features that punish enemies for moving past them or attacking someone besides them. You can do this to some extent with the right selection of feats and equipment, but no class is a default defender.
The Knight base class from PH2 actually has some Defender-type features. They're harder to tumble past, they can use their Knight's Challenge to be the focus of the baddies, etc. Also heavy armor and lots of hit points.
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The Knight base class from PH2 actually has some Defender-type features. They're harder to tumble past, they can use their Knight's Challenge to be the focus of the baddies, etc. Also heavy armor and lots of hit points.
Dito I've played with knights before and they are good defenders.
I use the death and dying rules slightly modified in my campaign.
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Take a look at the list below and tell me what you all think.BY NAME: Barbarian, Cleric, Druid, Favored Soul, Fighter, Hexblade,
Marshal, Monk, Rogue, Scout, Sorcerer, Spellthief, Swashbuckler, Warlock,Warmage,WizardControlers: Druid, , Wizard, Sorcerer, Warmage
Defenders: Fighter, Hexblade, Monk,
Leaders: Cleric, Marshal, Favored Soul
Strikers: Barbarian, Rogue, Scout, Spellthief, Swashbuckler, WarlockArcane: Hexblade, Sorcerer, Spellthief, Warlock, Warmage, Wizard
Divine: Cleric, Favored Soul, Monk
Martial: Fighter, Marshal, Rogue, Swashbuckler, Scout
Primal: Barbarian, Druid,
Those are the changes I'd make to the list, nothing in the scouts repetior screams primal to me.
The hexblade is problematic for me but I'd place him in the striker league more than the defender league unless you houserule in better armor for him he'll have problems standing toe to toe with things in a fight.
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I worked on this matrix to help the players see what the are working with, and it's more of a flavor thing as you all can see.
As for Paladin, Ranger and Bard as as prestige class. I may change it back to one or all being core classes and all. At this time, no. The Scout fills the role of a woodsy warrior, a rogue that is properly statted out can fill the roll of charismatic support do-gooder and a paladin is a any fighting type multiclassed with a divine type.
As far as who is what role...thanks for suggestions. I re-looked at hexblade...thought they wore medium armor and was good to go. I am examining again at what they can do.
I put scout as a primal character in the loosest sense of the word. I at first had them at martial, but figured place them in primal since they are outside most of the time and most often in my game, multiclass with druid and become rangers.
For me it was a toss up between including the knight or marshall. They seem so similar, I figure marshall more...maybe port over some knight abilities to the marshall or vice versa. The knight class in D&D to me has a very specific feel to me. Warlord seems more generic.
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Yeah, knight is the best example of a defender class for 3.5. Actually, all 4 classes in the 3.5 PHB II seem to be designed to fill the 4.0 roles: dragon shaman - leader, duskblade - striker, knight - defender, beguiler - controller. Since they were already working on 4E when this came out, it makes sense.
I liked the Per Encounter idea, but then I was already using it in Hero. For me, it simulates movies very well where the hero only uses his special move at dramatic times instead of using it all the time.
