I'm about to start up a RotRL campaign for four players, but three of them are terribly inexperienced. I have one gaming buddy from back in highschool who is well versed in 3.5 (I don't have the time to learn the Beta well enough to feel comfortable running it at this point), but everyone else struggles to understand the game. I like to say they are people who play D&D, in that they enjoy the social aspects of the game; but are not D&D players, in that they simply will not commit the time to make this game a hobby, as is necessary to truly be a D&D player. I make this distinction because the group has been together for close to a full year, and they still need constant reminders about how to make even basic attack rolls and saving throws(such as "what dice do I use, again?").
So the issue I'm having comes from my knowledge that RotRL is, like most Paizo products, designed for experienced players who know how to build powerful characte and, know how to use those characters effectively (which these guys don't). I'm worried about this becoming a kill-fest at certain points (the Shadow Clock, anyone?). I've done some research on these boards about which parts have been troublesome for some people and what to do about them (continuing with the Shadow Clock, substituting Xanesha's stats with Lucretia's). I'm still worried that it's going to be too difficult (I still think Lucretia will likely pound them; and even earlier fights, such as with the yeth hounds under Thistletop, may become TPKerific). My previous campaign got them to a whopping level 2 before I simply ran out of time to keep making my own stuff (hence the adoption of a Paizo AP), so I'm letting them keep that extra level, which will hopefully offset some of the difficulty even further. I'm still a little worried, though.
So, for those who have run or are running RotRL, what suggestions can you give me to help get the party through the AP (more or less) intact (barring freak criticals and other such occurences, of course)?
I'd say that, if they are comitted to play through an entire AP, then they're bound to notice how some of rules work...
a couple of questions:
When you mention the "social aspect", do you mean roleplaying, or "getting together to play a game"?
Do they have the 3.5 Players Manual (they could get the Beta for free)?
The game is about having a good time- are you and your players in agreement about what you want out of the game?)
Maybe it would be better to run shorter adventures, unless they're excited about the great adventure - because, if they are you might pull it off by giving out extra hitpoints, having them staying on level ahead of what the AP assumes.
GRU
Wow... you do present a difficult problem.
My first reaction, honestly, was that this is not the right adventure for people who aren't really into D&D.
If you're committed though, I'd say play up the rolepaying encounters and get the players to really FEEL the setting. A second suggestion is to try not to plan out what the monsters will do too much. A lot of danger comes from GM's who play "thinking" monsters. If you run the encounter locations as is without incorporating monsters from other nearby locations (those who heard combat) you should be able to pull this together.
Another idea would be to get help for them on their characters levelling up. Yourself and the other experienced player could sit down and map out how you would level up their characters (feat progressions, magic items to look for, etc) and give them some tips on tactics to use with that character.
If sitting down yourself is time prohibitive you could post something on these boards asking for help (probably in the 3.5 section of the forum) and I bet you would get some posters doing much of the work for you.
Another good source is googling for "Character Optimization Handbook <class>" with <class> being what ever class the character in question is. These are posts from the old WotC Character Optimization boards that evaluate just about everything for a class giving analysis of feats, spells, etc.
Next, institue a policy in which other players who help a player with game rules get 10xp per incident. So if they assist someone with what to role and what their modifiers are they get a small bonus (rather than always asking the DM). Once this is going, move it so that the help has to be given prior to that players turn in the initiative order coming up (so as to not slow down play).
Finally, I would talk to them about being willing to hit the reset button on any combats that they would like. Or perhaps you set "save points" in the game letting them know if they wipe that they will start over from this point (try to make it when they are fully healed and rested so you don't have to keep track of anything).
Sean Mahoney
Thanks to all for the responses thus far; keep them coming! I've spoken to all the players about these issues before, and will be doing so again in preparation for this campaign. We're all college students, and regularly get together for non-D&D activities such as Munchkin or Xbox. Yet they still keep clamoring for D&D, so there's something they all like about it which they don't get from video games. I'm not sure what exactly that is; it's my current goal to find out. I know at least two of them want roleplaying elements, but the others might be happy with Diablo-esque hack-n-slash.
The following is kind of a cathartic vent about the situation and not as relevant to the question I have in general:
Another person, who isn't as strapped for cash, just hasn't gotten around to buying the PHB yet; and I think is also daunted by the task of reading it. The third has a PHB, and she probably knows the most out of all the newbies about the system, but still not much.
I'd recommend the free PFRPG Beta, but I myself don't have the time to learn the new rules to the extent I'd like as a DM.
When it comes to helping them level up, I've tried numerous different tactics. I tried helping them through every step. That didn't work because I was holding their hands and they never learned on their own. So I started just giving them references in the book to look at. The times they understood it, they didn't remember it to the next session. Even the one who has a PHB isn't proactive in learning the relevant rules (she plays a fighter, so charges, grapples, etc. in her case) between sessions. The same thing happens with the others. I'll show them passages in the book relevant to their characters, with feats and rules they can use to their advantage. When the session is over, it all goes out of their heads.
My old group used to pour through supplemental books for feats, PrCs, and magic items; I didn't necessarily like that, but in some ways it was easier than DMing for a bunch of people who can't remember what an armor check penalty even is, let alone what theirs currently stands at.
I'd love to use online resources to help them. I've recommended them to these boards, but they never come. Character optimization boards might help, but I doubt they would a) go read them and b) understand them.
When it comes to the AP in general, RotRL strikes me as the most "classic" AP Paizo's ever come out with, as far as D&D culture goes (players start in a small town and advance from fighting goblins to giants and eventually face off against an evil archmage, with plenty of ancient ruins along the way). It also provides me with the most straight-forward, easy to run campaign of the various Paizo APs, I believe (I've got them all sans Shackled City). So I really want to use this for my own personal interest and convenience. I'm also pretty sure (85-90%) that it's the type of game the players will like. The Skinsaw Murders and Hook Mountain Massacre are right up their alley.
So, then it comes down to lightening the challenge a bit and keeping them more or less intact. I have thought about throwing some NPCs in with them; Burnt Offerings conventiently provides Shalelu, and I'm sure some bard or even paladin goodness would go a long way (in Skinsaw Murders and Hook Mountain particularly). The save points are an interesting idea. I could give out Sihedron Rune tokens in game, which have the metagame effect of letting them "save" the game in case they get plastered in a fight and want to try again. That way, they have an out, but it's not an unlimited resource that lets them skirt actually getting to know the rules.
It goes without saying that I will be redoubling my efforts to get them to learn the rules. They should all finally be getting PHBs soon, and with reinforcement and after getting torn a new one in several fights for not understanding basic tactics such as readying actions, my hope will be they come to understand the rules enough to be self-sufficient in play.
I'm also very interested in specific remedies for some of the AP's tougher points. I know Erylium is supposed to be a royal pain even for advanced groups, and the aforementioned battle with the yeth hounds has me worried as well, all right within Burnt Offerings. What have other people done in their runs through RotRL to turn the difficulty down a bit?
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An NPC helper character (or two) is an excellent way to help the party over the rough spots in the adventure. When I started RotRL, I had a similar situation - some inexperienced players, some who couldn't regularly commit due to life constraints, etc. It really helped to have extra NPC who could step up with a vital clue or idea when the party bogs down.
Shelelu is an excellent candidate for this - she's been a staple party member for some time. She was an excellent starter character for a new player as well, who wanted to get the feel of the campaign before creating her own character.
I've also used an NPC cleric as well. He was a cleric of Nethys, and was built with high knowledge skills and little direct combat capability. He would pop out a valuable clue now and again (Yeth hounds! Quick use spell x to defeat them!) or provide emergency healing when a PC got in a bit too deep. Otherwise, he simply hung in the background. (He also became a starter character for a second player.)
There are still a few rough spots to watch for - the big bad at the bottom of Thistletop can be deadly for an inexperienced party. A few haunts in The Misgivings can be very deadly (the one with a scarf comes to mind).
The Shadow Clock is VERY deadly. If you think swapping Xanesha and Lucretia aren't good enough, try changing the location (it's very bad guy friendly), or debuffing her a bit.
All else fails, try to keep the party a level or two higher than the adventure recommends. The extra hit points and abilities can't hurt their survival chances.
Above all else, have fun!
Well, when are you starting? :D
The reason I ask is that Mr. Jacobs has said that Legacy of Fire will be a little less "Hardcore" then then Rise of the Runelords.
If you are running a more social group, you might consider that AP.