4th Edition Sorcerer

[David Fryer]

As the title says, this is to discuss the 4e sorcerer. Just from what appears in the preview, this guy is wicked. Wild Magic is ridiculously overpowered, even by 4e standards. Just look at Chaos Bolt, if you roll an even on your attack roll, you make another attack and it keeps going until you roll an odd number. And that is a 1st level At-Will power. Plus all the other crazy stuff Wild Magic sorcerers get is just crazy. Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of random chaotic stuff happening with the sorcerer, but I'm afraid that we are heading down the Rifts road where every new sorcebook has some uber powerful thing in it that must be topped in the next sourcebook. So far I like 4e, but I'm afraid that if it turns into the next arms race for power gamers, it will get old very quickly.

[Shroomy]

I don't think chaos bolt is overpowered for a striker. There is only a 50% of getting the secondary attack, the secondary attack damage is only 1d6+Cha, and the best part is you can easily hit yourself and your allies with it if you get on a hot streak.

[Matthew Koelbl]

The Sorcerer definitely looks awesome, but I think a lot of the cries of 'power creep' are a bit premature.

Chaos Bolt is cool, but not quite as insane as you think. Yes, if you roll an even number on the main attack, you can make a secondary attack - which only does 1d6 damage, and doesn't get your charisma mod to damage. (Though it does get your secondary stat damage, either Str or Dex.) Yes, it can keep going - but can't hit anyone more than once, and is bound to a range from the last target hit, so even on a very lucky streak, you'll quickly run out of targets.

Don't get me wrong - it is very, very good. But mainly just for clearing out minions. I'd still say it is probably a bit too powerful, but not unreasonably so. And if Shroomy is right that it might rebound onto your companions - as a strict reading of the power would seem to indicate - that should balance it out just fine.

The class as a whole has a fantastic flavor for both builds (Dragon Magic and Wild Magic). Mechanically, it does seem to intrude a bit upon the Warlock (both being Arcane Strikers) - but just as Rogue and Ranger can occupy the same niche, the two classes look to remain distinct. Sorcerer will be higher damage but lower durability and mobility. Both have some controller aspects - but different ones, with Warlock inflicting more debuffs, and Sorcerer more concerned with field control and forced movement.

There is one single aspect of the class that bothers me... and that is their 'Striker Damage Bonus.'

Warlocks, Rogues and Rangers get extra damage dice, in the form of Warlock's Curse, Sneak Attack and Hunter's Quarry. Sorcerer's instead get to add their secondary stat to damage with their arcane powers (Str for Dragon Magic, Dex for Wild Magic.) Numerically, that comes out reasonably balanced, as the Sorc bonus gets some minor scaling at Paragon and Epic to keep up with the others.

But there is one key difference - Curse, Quarry and Sneak Attack can only be applied once a round, and requiring some set-up (either in the form of minor actions to curse/quarry the nearest enemy, or acquiring combat advantage for sneak attack.)

Dragon/Chaos Power has no such limitations. That strikes me as potentially worrisome - both because it seems to defy the assumed limitations in place for other strikers, and because I can see it being much more easily abused.

I don't think it is the end of the world, nor do I think there are even that many easy options available to actually abuse it - but it is the one part of the class that bothers me. Other than that, the class is both potent and flavorful, and that is always good to see!

[Arcmagik]

Barbarian already broke the presumed strike limitations. It has no "striker" damage die but instead has a higher damage output per power it seems. Not including the scaling "Rage Strike" that it has.

I think Sorcerer is going to put a dent in the Warlock's usage but as was just pointed out that it focuses on a slightly different secondary area.

All in all I like it and I am greatly looking forward to the PHB2 because I have liked all the new class previews.

I expect to see alot of Dragonborn Sorcerers (Dragon Magic) and alot of Eladrin/Elf Sorcerer (Wild Magic).

[Jezred]

I don't have D&D Insider, but from what little I have read in this thread I like the idea of Sorcerers. The flavor seems appropriate, and it doesn't steal the thunder of the Warlock.

The more I read about the PHB2 classes, the more excited I get for its release. I have had the sucker pre-ordered as soon as it was announced. I miss my bards and druids, but I also look forward to the newer classes.

I am not too worried about "power creep" or 4E being dependant on source books. From the ones I have purchased so far, it seems that the books add to the experience without overshadowing the three core books. However, one could stick to the core books and still have many hours of playtime and fun.

[Shroomy]

Matthew Koelbl wrote:

Warlocks, Rogues and Rangers get extra damage dice, in the form of Warlock's Curse, Sneak Attack and Hunter's Quarry. Sorcerer's instead get to add their secondary stat to damage with their arcane powers (Str for Dragon Magic, Dex for Wild Magic.) Numerically, that comes out reasonably balanced, as the Sorc bonus gets some minor scaling at Paragon and Epic to keep up with the others.

But there is one key difference - Curse, Quarry and Sneak Attack can only be applied once a round, and requiring some set-up...

I think that the fact that the PHB strikers can potentially deal a lot more damage to a single target necessitates the action cost. At most, a sorcerer is only going to inflict an extra +2 or +3 damage (assuming they don't gimp everything else except for Charisma through a point buy) at the heroic tier and they don't get the same bang for their striker damage buck on a critical hit. I'm not even confident that they will get feats like Backstabber or Improved Hunter's Quarry, and even if they do, it will probably be flat tier scaling (+1 at heroic, +2 at paragon, and +3 at epic).

[David Fryer]

I have to admit to having only skimmed over the sorcerer on my coffee break at work. However, I still think it tends to fall on the higher end of the power spectrum like the Bard and the Barbarian, rather than toward the Invoker which tends to me to look like a wizard with the serial numbers filled off. However, the rest of you make some pretty good arguments and I will take them into consideration when I have more time to look it over.

[Ratchet]

hmmm Dragonborn Dragon Magic Sorceror MC'ed into Feypact Warlock. One feat basically gets you another encounter power, and as it an arcane power you still get that +STR damage on the power(EYEBITE cha vs ref, 1d8+cha(+str), and your invisible. Tasty. I think you could easily get CHA18 & STR16 and not end up to gimped in terms of your other stats. I like!

[David Fryer]

That is scary.

[Sebastian]

Is this the playtest sorcerer or a preview of the final version for PHB2?

I'm not a huge fan of this class, mostly because its mechanics seem to require too much memory usage. The whole "get benefit x if you roll an even number and benefit y if you roll an odd number" strikes me as a huge pain in the ass.

The chaining chaos bolt seems okay by me. Is there anything in the rules that would prevent you from saying "I know I can make another attack, but I don't want to make it on my ally, so I will forgo said attack" or are you required to make the attack rolls by virtue of the power?

[David Fryer]

It looks like it's a preview of the finished product. Also I did not see any mechanic that would let you decide not to make another attack, but maybe I'm missing something.

[Matthew Koelbl]

Sebastian wrote:

Is this the playtest sorcerer or a preview of the final version for PHB2?

Preview of the final version. PHB2 material seems to be essentially complete, at this point.

Sebastian wrote:

I'm not a huge fan of this class, mostly because its mechanics seem to require too much memory usage. The whole "get benefit x if you roll an even number and benefit y if you roll an odd number" strikes me as a huge pain in the ass.

It does seem a bit cumbersome - but to be fair, clearly there is an audience for that, judging by the presence of wild-magic casters throughout the editions. They actually seem to have done a good job of inserting randomness without really disrupting the balance of the class, but I can see it being confusing to keep track of. On the other hand, I imagine those most interested in playing it will be up to the task - and the Dragon Magic half seems perfectly straightforward.

In general, the PHB2 classes seem a bit more 'advanced' in complexity than some of those in PHB1. I don't know if this is intentional, or simply the natural product of the designers stretching their skills a bit as they grow more used to the system, or the inevitable result of trying to find new ways to create similar but equally viable classes.

Aside from the Wild Magic Sorcerer, none of them seem so much more complex as to be a turn-off to new players - druids and their shape-shifting requires a bit more tactical thought, and I'm sure the same will be true for invoker summoning, barbarian raging/charging, and so forth, but none to the extent that you need to be a strategic genius to play the class. It is simply something to engage those who are looking for a bit more than the archer ranger, who spends every round simply leisurely firing arrows from the back line.

The Wild Magic Sorcerer does seem a step above the rest... but, again, it is easy enough to avoid for those who don't want to deal with the tracking.

Sebastian wrote:

The chaining chaos bolt seems okay by me. Is there anything in the rules that would prevent you from saying "I know I can make another attack, but I don't want to make it on my ally, so I will forgo said attack" or are you required to make the attack rolls by virtue of the power?

By the wording of the attack itself, the secondary attack doesn't seem optional. I'm not sure if there is anything specific in the core rules themselves regarding it - and given that you can't avoid hitting allies who might be caught in an indescriminate burst or blast, the same would seem to apply here.

The one possible option is the potential to make attacks against objects, with DM approval. But this isn't in the core rules - just suggested as an option if the DM allows it. So if you can get your DM to let you, a Sorcerer could probably get permission to have any excess, dangerous attacks just discharge into the air or the ground, rather than having to blast his party - but the DM would also seem to be perfectly able to rule that doing so is not an option, and the possibly of the bolt ricocheting into his allies is simply a natural downside to the power.

On the other hand - there are a few powers worded similarly in the PHB (such as Passing Attack, a level 1 fighter encounter power), and I don't imagine anyone would tell a fighter they 'must' take the secondary attack, even if they have no options other than an ally standing next to them.

So by that logic, I'd rule that the secondary attack is optional. Because while it might seem reasonable for it to work like this for Chaos Bolt, there are plenty of powers in the PHB where it wouldn't make any sense, and clearly is not intended to force players to resolve 'left-over' attacks against their allies. So I wouldn't want to set a precedent, even if it seems more reasonable for this power.

[Burrito Al Pastor]

The chaos sorcerer looks like a lot of fun. Are his mechanics more complex? Absolutely. But I think that's a responsibility that falls on the player, not the class; you shouldn't play a chaos sorcerer if you won't be able to remember which things are even and which are odd, just like how you might not want to play a warlock if you're going to forget about all the continuing effects you've put on enemies.

[drjones]

I always liked the wild mage from back in the day (not sure my party members felt the same way) so that is exciting. The drqagonwhatever version seemed blah to me but some folks have a woody for anything with dragon in the name it would seem.

It does seem a little more complex but if you play with the wizards DCI character generator that they just released the 'real' version of it gives you auto generated power cards so they can make some powers more interesting and complicated without too much fear that people will be lost.

Also going by what they have said about the DMG2 it sounds like they assume a newbie will buy PHB1 first so things will probably get more gnarly over time. This is good if you ask me, I like funky rules but I also like that they kept it simple at the start.

[Golarion Goblin]

Sebastian wrote:

The chaining chaos bolt seems okay by me. Is there anything in the rules that would prevent you from saying "I know I can make another attack, but I don't want to make it on my ally, so I will forgo said attack" or are you required to make the attack rolls by virtue of the power?

Off hand, since I'm at work and don't have the preview in front of me, I'd say it works like the thunderwave power. If your buddy is in the blast you can't opt to not hit him, you just have to hope for a low roll.

[Jeremy Mac Donald]

Sebastian wrote:

Is this the playtest sorcerer or a preview of the final version for PHB2?

I'm not a huge fan of this class, mostly because its mechanics seem to require too much memory usage. The whole "get benefit x if you roll an even number and benefit y if you roll an odd number" strikes me as a huge pain in the ass.

I'm with you here - these sorts of powers can work but there is an unusually high chance of this sort of thing really damaging the game. Make it a Daily or even an Encounter and I start having a LOT less issues with it because I don't mind a little extra dice rolling if I'm getting a cool effect for such powers - but for an At Will? Thats just a bad design choice IMO.

Even if we grant that some players think this sort of thing is cool enough to warrant it I feel this is still a mistake because At Will powers, more then other powers, are not just about the player thats using them. Since everyone has to wait for such powers to resolve every round they are, in some sense, about everyone at the table. I don't think anyone really minds if it takes a little longer to get around to your turn if some player is pulling off his cool schtick - after all I'll want a little extra time when I'm doing my uber super cool combo as well - but its not fair to the other players at the table if one player takes two or three times as long as the rest of the players every single round.

[drjones]

I don't see this power as being any more fiddly and time consuming than other at-wills like marks, aoe spells, debuffs etc. Also once you have a few levels the amount of rounds you use the same at-will over and over decreases.

But I guess it's a matter of personal preference. If a particular player is taking too long to get their turn done whatever their class the DM needs to intervene. What classes are allowed at the table is up to him/her.

[Arcmagik]

This spell may take less time then a wizard and his burst spells as the roll could stop the character short where as a well aimed burst or blast has a wizard rolling multiple attack rolls over and over again.

[Matthew Koelbl]

Well, while this power itself is probably not too time-consuming, I think the class itself (or at least the Wild mage) clearly does add that potential, between both the powers themselves, as well as some of their special features that trigger off rolling 1s or 20s, evens or odds, etc.

But again, I don't think that will end up too big an issue - the people this sort of thing appeals to will be the people who can smoothly handle all the chaos - I think it will be a rare occurence that you end up with someone playing the class who really gets bogged down in the complexity. And honestly, there is a similar chance of that happening with every class - I've known people who play rogues and spend forever trying to plot out how best to move across the battlefield, getting into flanking with the least dangerous route, and then need to figure out their different modifiers for combat advantage, etc. Defenders planning out the best place to stand to block the movement of the enemy while letting them maintain marks on the right targets, and keep things close enough to be hit by stances, and so forth. Or, as mentioned, simply characters with multi-target attacks, needing to process each one. If it is an issue, work with the player to resolve it - but I don't think the class alone will make or break the time issue, save in rare cases.

[TigerDave]

Matthew Koelbl wrote:

the people this sort of thing appeals to will be the people who can smoothly handle all the chaos - I think it will be a rare occurence that you end up with someone playing the class who really gets bogged down in the complexity.

Rather than calling it getting bogged in the chaos, I rather prefer to think of this as a finesse class that will appeal to the player mindset that wants something a bit more challenging and intricate than "Thog Smash!" I actually like the fact that these classes are more complex - while I always prefer to play the simpler classes, I know there are people out there that crave depth, complexity, and challenge. I think this will be right up their alley.