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I have, up to this point, been pretty disappointed with the Second Darkness AP, for reasons discussed in other threads (most importantly, the shortening of the adventures). For what it's worth, I still think the adventures are fairly well done, but not on par with anything done in Rise of the Runelords or Curse of the Crimson Throne.
That said, having read A Memory of Darkness, I feel that things are getting better. This has been, by far, my favorite of the 5 SD adventures so far, and it really captures the "cool" parts of traveling to an elven kingdom, gate-hopping around the continent, and dealing with a demon-besieged fortress. I enjoyed reading the adventure almost as much as some of the Rise of the Runelords adventures (CotCT still blows everything else out of the water).
Now, my only complaint is the state of the Winter Council. Over the course of the 5 adventure, the Council is built up as a shadowy Illuminati-like group of elders that have been running things all over the world for longer than humans have been recording history. They have been portrayed as powerful and knowledgeable, able to call down assassin attacks and pull strings from across continents. Further, one imagines that any demonic siege that is focused on wiping out the lone elven redoubt within their vast woodland holdings would be a mighty force, including some of the most powerful demons on the plane. But, when the PCs finally find them, the Council consists of 4 sad, lonely hermits and their tiny team of defenders being besieged by a squad of demonic middle-management whom the PCs are never expected to encounter in any meaningful way (I know this could go lots of ways, depending on the characters' actions, but it's still not a very memorable pack of demons). In fact, although I read the rest of the adventure very carefully and couldn't put it down, I really lost interest when the party reached Thorn's End, because the whole setting was such a letdown.
I feel like the Winter Council would be much more intriguing if it wasn't neutered before the party ever arrives. It should consists of a decent number of elven elders (perhaps 12, now that their 13th member has taken the path of the drow) who continue to be active in elven politics and wield significant power. It makes a much more fun encounter if the PCs have to deal with a real Political Entity that shows the patient, long-view, and Machiavellian scheming that the Winter Council should be using. To counter that, the demonic force should be equally powerful, a real threat to such mighty elves. As long as the power levels increases are roughly equivalent, it doesn't really affect the plot all that much, but makes for a much more dramatic encounter.
Thoughts?
O
My concern would be DMPC syndrome going nova in the final battle if you expand both sides. You'd have so many NPCs involved in the final fight that you'd either have to go narrative or you'd have some serious down time between your PC's actions. You'd also run the risk of Elf NPC taking out chief Big Bad without the PCs getting much of a say in that matter, just by sheer odds of 12 powerful dudes fighting a demon horde.
My concern would be DMPC syndrome going nova in the final battle if you expand both sides. You'd have so many NPCs involved in the final fight that you'd either have to go narrative or you'd have some serious down time between your PC's actions. You'd also run the risk of Elf NPC taking out chief Big Bad without the PCs getting much of a say in that matter, just by sheer odds of 12 powerful dudes fighting a demon horde.
I don't think I would actually run the battle with the PCs participation. I imagine a narrative/running battle in which:
I know that I am fully capable of running the final section however I please, I was wondering, though, if anyone is seeing some reason for neutering the Winter Council and demonic forces that I'm not seeing.
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Disclaimer: I haven't read any of the AP itself yet, read all of the support articles though. So my advice might not really be possible.
My concern would be DMPC syndrome going nova in the final battle if you expand both sides. You'd have so many NPCs involved in the final fight that you'd either have to go narrative or you'd have some serious down time between your PC's actions. You'd also run the risk of Elf NPC taking out chief Big Bad without the PCs getting much of a say in that matter, just by sheer odds of 12 powerful dudes fighting a demon horde.
why why not plan ot round one white council elves fight a group of x (something not listed in the adventure) round 2 they fight y and one goes down, round 3 they continue fighting y... until the number of white council matches that in the adventure then run it as is?
Creative Director
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Sorry Second Darkness isn't doing it for you overall, but then again... not every AP is going to be fun for every reader, despite our efforts to make that so. That's the main reason, in fact, we're doing 2 Adventure Paths a year rather than 1 or less: We want to try to make sure that there's at least ONE a year that subscribers will really like!
In any event,
BUT: The one-two punch of losing their leader and having one of their number become the thing they hate the most has pretty much broken them. They've withdrawn into their tower and are hiding and going stir-crazy rather than keeping up their network of political and military secret agencies running. The Shin'rakorath and the other such secret agencies have been running on their own and with limited contact to the Winter Council (and often that contact is contradictory, if they communicate with more than one councilor), so things are spiraling out of control. In fact, had the Winter Council been healthy BEFORE Allevrah's transformation, it's unlikely that she would have transformed in the first place. She'd either not change, or the council would have realized one of their own was going off the deep end and would have replaced her.
The Winter Council has been active for well over 10,000 years. And during those years, things with the drow have remained pretty stable. If the Winter Council was healthy and things were status quo, there would have been no change to that. The entire plot of Second Darkness hinges on the Winter Council's imminent death and the fact that it's falling apart, not only to get the whole plot going, but to remove the most likely NPC organization to move successfully against the drow, leaving a vacuum that only the PCs can fill.
So if you change things too much so that the Winter Council is stronger, you'll perhaps need to not only come up with another reason why the drow are suddenly able to punch through the Winter Council's blanket of secrecy (we avoided letting the drow do that on their own simply because we didn't want the drow to be the start of it, since the plot of drow coming up on their own to attack the surface has been done so many times)... but also you'll need to determine why the Winter Council isn't able to handle the problem on their own and why the PCs need to go down into the Darklands in the first place.
I kind of assumed that being besieged by a host of demons was the Winter Council's big issue right now. When Allevreh went rogue, she damaged the mystic wards protecting Thorn's End, allowing the demons to get a foothold in the citadel and forcing the Winter Council to spend most of their resources on simply protecting themselves.
Although the Winter Council still has the ability to communicate with the outside world in a limited fashion (with the Shin'Rakorath, the Queen, etc.) from time to time, their preoccupation with the demons has allowed the drow the opportunity to start mucking around with the heavens.
Given you explanation, James, I see the motivation behind presenting them as extremely weak, and I even appreciate the "reveal" when the BBEGs that the PCs are expecting turn out to be a bunch of half-crazy, old coots, but I feel like there is a more cinematic scene available when the demons storm the citadel and the Winter Council rises up to show that they are not so weak as others have supposed. Hmmm. Perhaps there's a good compromise here, in which these ancient elves get the chance to go out in a blaze of arcane glory, showing that they were always decent folk at heart, who were really working towards what they thought was best for the elven nation, and get to play their Martyr cards with abandon (Torg reference).
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Creative Director
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Given you explanation, James, I see the motivation behind presenting them as extremely weak, and I even appreciate the "reveal" when the BBEGs that the PCs are expecting turn out to be a bunch of half-crazy, old coots, but I feel like there is a more cinematic scene available when the demons storm the citadel and the Winter Council rises up to show that they are not so weak as others have supposed. Hmmm. Perhaps there's a good compromise here, in which these ancient elves get the chance to go out in a blaze of arcane glory, showing that they were always decent folk at heart, who were really working towards what they thought was best for the elven nation, and get to play their Martyr cards with abandon (Torg reference).
O
A few other things to keep in mind if you go this route:
1) It's not necessarily good for the game to have extended scenes that don't allow PC input. If you have the winter council destroy the demons, it's probably best to have that happen either off-screen, or in the course of a few minutes of game play exposition.
2) As for "as week as others have supposed..." that's the reverse of the situation. Everyone BUT the Winter Council (and maybe the small pocket of demons eager to keep the glory of their hopeful defeat all to themselves) thinks they're strong. That's why the queen is so secretive about recruiting the PCs to take them on, and that's why Treerazer hasn't just come in to crush them personally. If it were public knowledge that the winter council were week, they wouldn't be there by the time the PCs got there.
3) The Winter Council was never decent folk at heart. They're Lawful Neutral, and to a society like elves (who are Chaotic Good for the most part) they're actually as disruptive as anarchists are to our society. The Winter Council are, sort of, "reverse anarchists" if you will, which combined with their secrecy and tradition established over hundreds of centuries makes them really dangerous to the elven way of life. Law does not always mean they're good guys. In fact, it often means they're not. That's what the "good" part of the alignment axis is for.
4) If you have the Winter Council take out the demons, then suddenly you have a climax to the adventure that's pretty narrowly focused on one type of enemy. If you want to rebuild the end so that it's more of a roleplaying encounter, that's fine. But if you want it to end up with a combat or a stealth mission, you should realize that no demons = less variety in the types of foes encountered. This may or may not be an issue for you and your group.
1) It's not necessarily good for the game to have extended scenes that don't allow PC input. If you have the winter council destroy the demons, it's probably best to have that happen either off-screen, or in the course of a few minutes of game play exposition.
The PCs will certainly have input. I imagine the Winter Council/Treerazer battle going on in the background as they race from room to room, dealing with demons they encounter, trying to escape from a battle scene that is well beyond their abilities. Also, I imagine the demons would ultimately defeat the Winter Council. If the elves could handle the demons, they probably already would have. Although this could certainly change, depending on the PCs' actions.
2) As for "as week as others have supposed..." that's the reverse of the situation. Everyone BUT the Winter Council (and maybe the small pocket of demons eager to keep the glory of their hopeful defeat all to themselves) thinks they're strong. That's why the queen is so secretive about recruiting the PCs to take them on, and that's why Treerazer hasn't just come in to crush them personally. If it were public knowledge that the winter council were week, they wouldn't be there by the time the PCs got there.
By "others" here, I really mean the PCs, once they encounter the Winter Council. Obviously, everyone else (including me, as I read the AP) believes the Winter Council to be mighty. As I said, this makes the "reveal" when they find them to be much less powerful than imagined somewhat intriguing, but I think it's also quite disappointing. It feels like something that was scaled down to fit into a specified word count (which it likely was) rather than the grand, fantastic element that it could be, and I think my players will sense that, too.
3) The Winter Council was never decent folk at heart. They're Lawful Neutral, and to a society like elves (who are Chaotic Good for the most part) they're actually as disruptive as anarchists are to our society. The Winter Council are, sort of, "reverse anarchists" if you will, which combined with their secrecy and tradition established over hundreds of centuries makes them really dangerous to the elven way of life. Law does not always mean they're good guys. In fact, it often means they're not. That's what the "good" part of the alignment axis is for.
Being Lawful Neutral doesn't mean that they're NOT decent either. I fully understand the distinction between the Good-Evil axis and the Law-Chaos axis in the D&D alignment system. I am saying that, in rising above their petty infighting and internal conflict to face the demon threat, those Winter Council members that remain alive and not-drow can show that they were not acting contrary to the Queen and the PCs over the course of the AP and maintaining secrecy re: Allevreh for selfish reasons, but because, as they say, they must "make choices that any elf would agree are right, if not necessarily just." Thus, although they may be deluded regarding what many elves would consider right, they have been acting in good faith to accomplish what they believe is best for the elven nation as a whole, including rising up to battle the demon horde, even at the cost of their own lives, in order to weaken the demons and give the elves a fighting chance against the encroaching darkness. This is decent and within the parameters of LN, I think.
4) If you have the Winter Council take out the demons, then suddenly you have a climax to the adventure that's pretty narrowly focused on one type of enemy. If you want to rebuild the end so that it's more of a roleplaying encounter, that's fine. But if you want it to end up with a combat or a stealth mission, you should realize that no demons = less variety in the types of foes encountered. This may or may not be an issue for you and your group.
There are plenty of kinds of demons out there. Also, I imagine that some of the elven defenses (magical traps, physical hazards, etc.) could still be active and add a little chaos to the mess. I'm not worried about the players being bored as they flee the war zone that Thorn's End is about to become, dodging demons and a newly-crafted drow wizard, just to escape into a forest filled with more demons, miles from anywhere safe.
O
By "others" here, I really mean the PCs, once they encounter the Winter Council. Obviously, everyone else (including me, as I read the AP) believes the Winter Council to be mighty. As I said, this makes the "reveal" when they find them to be much less powerful than imagined somewhat intriguing, but I think it's also quite disappointing. It feels like something that was scaled down to fit into a specified word count (which it likely was) rather than the grand, fantastic element that it could be, and I think my players will sense that, too.
I didn't get that sense from it that the council was scaled down. It seemed, to me, to fit with everything else rather than the council being much more powerful.
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The Winter Council are, sort of, "reverse anarchists" if you will, which combined with their secrecy and tradition established over hundreds of centuries makes them really dangerous to the elven way of life.
I think you're going for describing them as authoritarians, although tyrants or fascists might fit the bill as well. From wikipedia's entry on authoritarianism, which is characterized by the following principles:
"1) rule of men, not rule of law; 2) rigged elections; 3) all important political decisions made by unelected officials behind closed doors; 4) a bureaucracy operated quite independently of rules, the supervision of elected officials, or concerns of the constituencies they purportedly serve; 5) the informal and unregulated exercise of political power";
Leadership that is "self-appointed and even if elected cannot be displaced by citizens' free choice among competitors"
No guarantee of civil liberties or tolerance for meaningful opposition;
Weakening of civil society: "No freedom to create a broad range of groups, organizations, and political parties to compete for power or question the decisions of rulers," with instead an "attempt to impose controls on virtually all elements of society"
By "others" here, I really mean the PCs, once they encounter the Winter Council. Obviously, everyone else (including me, as I read the AP) believes the Winter Council to be mighty. As I said, this makes the "reveal" when they find them to be much less powerful than imagined somewhat intriguing, but I think it's also quite disappointing. It feels like something that was scaled down to fit into a specified word count (which it likely was) rather than the grand, fantastic element that it could be, and I think my players will sense that, too.I didn't get that sense from it that the council was scaled down. It seemed, to me, to fit with everything else rather than the council being much more powerful.
I also didn't get the sense that the current state of the council was due to a page count limit, nor would I feel that encountering them would be a "let down" for my group. There's plenty of juicy interaction that can happen, and with the current vulnerability, the PC's at this stage have greater potential for influence than if they were ants watching the people do battle in the sandbox. I'd figure the PC's would be slain on sight by either side without room for diplomacy, teaching them not to meddle in the affairs of powerful beings.
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Add me to the list of people disappointed by the Winter Council. There's an awful lot of build up of these elves leading up to this module. To find a group of elves besieged by, as described above, mid-level demons, and paralyzed by fear and/or doubt is, to say the least, really disappointing. This group, as was pointed out, has been around for 10,000 years, and they're apparently completely undone by the death of their leader and drowification of another member. Are they really that weak and/or flawed... not just one of them, but ALL of them? The final test to which they will apparently succumb is a siege? This is the same group that can order mercenaries and assassins around on a continent wide basis, keep the elven nobility almost entirely under thumb, and keep the existence of the drow hidden from the entire world, and yet they can't summon the aid to break a siege on their barely secret location? Ignoble end indeed. If I were a player in my group, I'd be tempted to kill them all out of disgust. Such weak willed and easily cowed people should not wield the power they have.
Also, the module itself is very unclear on a variety of things that I know will come up when this is run. I haven't gotten or read #18 yet, so perhaps some of this is answered there. The party is apparently expected to loot the tower at some point, but I'm not sure how. If they follow the expected path (and my group likely will) they'll befriend the guard captain and quickly organize a meeting. Following the fight and assuming it goes mostly as described, the party will be left with what? A broken council? A three person council? Three elves that should be taken back to the queen in chains? (the party I will be running for is likely to feel this way.) With three remaining members I doubt that the party will be given free reign over the entire tower. What if a fight breaks out with the remaining members? If the PCs befriend the captain, it mentions he'll send a couple of guards to accompany them, but it doesn't mention where the guards will or won't allow the party to go. The module says that the siege breaks with the death of the leader, but I find that hard to believe... surely Treerazer will quickly move to reinforce the position, particularly if the demons do any significant damage to the structure in the brief time it is defenseless.
Sure, all of this can be handled by an adequate DM, but in such a politically motivated module, I guess I expected a little more detail on the fallout from the end of the Council. Hopefully it is expanded on in #18.
The more I think about this bit of Second Darkness, the more I'm inclined to run it with a Winter Council that is not a handful of whimpering simps hiding in their treehouse (assuming I ever run it at all; I'm more and more inclined to skip to Legacy of Fire).
I imagine it as follows:
The Winter Council is (and has been for millennia) a powerful council of elven elders who together wield forces that most mortals couldn't hope to control. They have always acted in a manner that they, conservative, old (Republican) elves that they are, thought was best for elven society as a whole. That sometimes means acting in a fashion that some would consider evil and often sacrificing a few for the well-being of the many, but always trying to do what is best for elves in general. Naturally, they have incurred the enmity of powerful forces that would like to do away with the elves and take over their spot in forests of Golarion. These powerful forces include, but are not limited to, Treerazer and his demonic horde lurking in the Tanglewood. Although these demons are powerful foes, the Winter Council has always managed to repel any demonic incursions, maintaining the secrecy of Thorn's End, and continue their manipulation of elven society across the world. Allevreh's betrayal, however, shifted the balance of power subtly. The wards of Thorn's End were damaged, and Treerazer was able to find the fortress in the wilderness. He set up a siege that has significantly distracted the Winter Council, taking up more of their attention and power than they have ever had to previously expend in their defense. This shift in attention, combined with Allevreh's appearance and knowledge, allowed the Azrinae drow to make their move, leading to the events of the AP. When the PCs arrive at Thorn's End, they find a group of powerful elven elders with whom they must use reason (or subterfuge) and debate in order to get the information required in order to track down Allevreh, Once this is accomplished, another of the Winter Council goes bonkers and the whole host of demonic power rushes in for a big ol' battle. The remaining Winter Council, always trying to do what's best for the elven nation, sees the PCs as their best bet for stopping the drow's plot and makes sure they escape the demonic attack, sacrificing themselves in the process (not before the PCs get a chance to cross swords with some cool demon-types). This seems much more epic and 'fantasy'-esque than the way it is presented. That is something my players will remember down the line ... not a quartet of old men sitting on their hands while the world falls down.
O
Personally, I have very mixed feelings about the Winter Council and the book as a whole. Don't get me wrong, I really like Second Darkness, and I can appreciate the political intrigue in 'A Memory' of Darkness', but I do agree there are issues.
Most notably (as previously mentioned) there is an extreme lack of clarity and direction. At first glance I thought it was an interesting dungeon crawl, but of course, it wasn't. What happens to the council after the dust settles after the final encounter? It's scarcely mentioned. Furthermore, I'm not looking forward to playing out the final meeting with the entire council and the PC's. Trying to run 4 different NPC's at the same time in a heated debate with each other (and the PC's of course) is a logistical nightmare.
Although I will admit I exepected the council to be a bit tougher than they were, I can understand the situation. The two most powerful members were gone and the corruption of the environment and their fortress slowly wearing down their resolve. My logic also is that they are afraid to call in outside help, both out of pride, but also because they don't want an escalation with the forces of Treerazer.
For myself, I can appreciate 'A Memory of Darkness' for the plot.
But the direction of the story, and the conclusions of it, requires extra DM work.
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As a player in SD and nearly at the end of the tale, let me recount my encounter with the Winter Council.
The first time the party ever heard of the Winter Council was when we were attacked by assassins in the middle of the night. Now, for our encounter, the GM allowed us to have separate rooms if we so wished. Our party, while we work together very well, is actually quite hostile to one another so let me explain our group make-up, shown under spoilers.
The Half-Elf Sorcerer would sooner blow you up than look at you. He's CN and tends to be more murderous than any other member of the party. He has no qualms over killing anything, but for the most part, he hasn't gone too extreme for the other members to interfere with him.
The Half-Elf Arcane Archer has enough levels in Ranger to basically one shot every drow he sees. Not to mention that his arcane bond is his longbow which he quite recently has decided to make Holy. He's CG and for the most part he plays it, but he also likes to make deals with the Sorcerer for how they should kill people.
The Dwarven Monk/Cleric of Irori is perhaps the one solid good character in the party. I'm actually pretty sure he's LG, but I'm not sure. Still, he plays good and even threatened to stop healing the Sorcerer at one point for hostile actions on neutral creatures. He's the friend to the Arcane Archer in our party, and they do work well together.
Then there's me, the CN Half-Elf Rogue/Shadowdancer. While I have no qualms killing people, I actually have more of a list. If you're not on the list, don't make me angry at you, and I won't hurt you. While I do pickpocket and steal when I need to, I'm not going to steal something in a room full of guards...though at the moment they probably couldn't see me :P Still, I act more along a NG or CG character as I am usually the one who talks with NPCs and normally agrees to doing good things, but then again, when you're on an agenda of revenge, the world being destroyed does put a damper on those plans. My character also doesn't get along with the Sorcerer as he'd sooner blast me into oblivion and call it an accident since we just don't get along. (It's friendly banter in game, but in game our characters only work together cause we don't care about killing those who get in our way.)
By this point, our Sorcerer had procured Bubbles the Shield Guardian from our escape from the Drow.
Now onto the attack, we had all pretty much decided to have separate rooms. However, with the Shield Guardian and our Arcane Archer having a Ring of Sustenance, we all woke up to deal with the threat and were able to get were the words "the Winter Council." Now, forgive me for not remembering quite everything that happened as our GM is actually having to leave fairly soon and has been having to rush through this AP, but somehow we learned that the WC was basically a hidden group of noble elves that tried to usurp the Queen in ways that they believed benefited their kind. This unfortunately includes keeping the Drow menace a secret and made us threats as they obviously wished to silence us for good.
Now, this was our first experience with this group. We also learned that they controlled various groups within Elven Society, including ones that some of our allies from earlier in the AP belonged to, so now we were weary of them. Perhaps they were working for the WC the entire time? Were we being set-up?
Of course being thrown in a plush prison wasn't going to make us any happier. If the assassination attempt wasn't enough to set the party against the WC then the imprisonment was for sure breaking the camel's back. We went to Thorn's End, fully expecting to go through a bunch of Elven guards in order to "take care of" the WC. (Why the Paladin was okay with this, I have no clue. /shrug)
Of course, upon arriving at Thorn's End and seeing the massive Demon army outside kind of made us feel we almost weren't necessary. Now we didn't fight our way through, the Nelfeshnee actually talked with us and asked us what we were doing here and what our intents were. I don't think any of us had qualms over saying that we pretty much were there to take out the WC at that point. The Demon decided to let us through as long as our HE Bard companion stayed behind who had no qualms over this? Interesting... We, of course, agreed.
Now, upon entering we were of course asked by the captain what our intents were. Of course the rogue with the awesome bluff is totally saying we're hear to help out the WC. Well, the captain believes us and says to start a meeting. At this point, we have the paladin auto detect to see if any of them detect evil, and one guy does. Of course the pixie was pretty interesting too, but I digress.
We do "help" the WC so they have their meeting, and that's when we could really tell the WC was apparently in dire straights. While they were stressed individuals by themselves in Thorn's End, meeting with each other was like watching cats and dogs tear at each other. We didn't even get involved with their discussion unless they questioned us directly, and of course seeing one of their own not only attack one of them but turn into a Drow was like, "Oh that makes sense now."
When he pulled the spike out and lowered the defenses to the tower, we pretty much annihilated him in one round and put the spike back in before any of the demons had a chance to enter. Of course our GM wasn't too happy about that as that meant a HUGE battle was going to take place as we had to leave.
Now by this point, my character was actually interested in the fact that the WC kept the illusion that they were still strong and united while actually they were quite weak and needed to be protected. I mean, if you're going to order someone to attack a small group of adventurers, you could somehow tell someone, "Hey, we're being besieged by demons, send help ASAP." But no, they decided to keep themselves a "secret" and pretend to be strong as that is probably what has saved them time as yes if Treerazor or any of the other stronger demons had known would have attacked in full force.
Now, even if the WC was pretty much being disbanded, their political power was still strong and some of us were still interested in using them for our own purposes (*cough*me*cough*). So we decide to rescue the ragtag WC. The WC allowed us anything in the tower that we could use for the immediate future. (Magical items, HOOOOOOOOOO!) And we set up a plan, the guards would act as a meatshield for the lower level demons while we took on the Nelfeshnee and his goons as well as demons being teleported into the battle. Of course we found out about the Succubus, big surprise there. The fight actually took an incredibly long time and was very difficult. Luckily, the GM did play down a lot of their normal abilities as that would pretty much constitute a party wipe, but let me say this, I hate Mirror Image GAH! XD
We then escorted the WC back to the portal we came from and were greeted by the Queen and few of our old friends.
Now, some things in our game that came across really well was the reputation of the WC. That pretty much saved them for the most part. In fact, if you wanted to, you could play the fact that they anger the party to go after them as an excuse to try and get the party to come and rescue them. While they themselves are depressed, this is only because they are quite literally surrounded by demons with nearly no way out. What would you do in that situation? We as a party of like 5 level 12 and the WC helping us couldn't take on the Nelfeshnee and everyone else without the GM holding back. If he wanted to, he could have easily party wiped us. Could the 4 of them have taken out that group of demons? No, but they kept up the illusion that they could, which shows their experience at manipulating things. While they are weak, they kept the appearance that they were strong, and yes, it's kind of a disappointment when you walk in that door. Still, don't say they aren't still powerful. Realize that while the WC is gone for the most part, those 3 elves still have strong ties to organizations within the Elven Empire and are still quite powerful politically. Use this if you need to to emphasize that with your players.
Now on the issue of apparently looting Thorn's End, you do have the option to clearly go and attack the WC. Our party nearly did until we realized just how weak these guys were and almost pitied them...almost. If the party doesn't kill the WC, there is no point for them to loot the entire tower. Have what our GM did and say they have access to magical items that will assist them in the fight ahead and maybe future fights. Have it suit them as a character, class, and player. If the party kills the WC, they lose a lot of information on Allevrah. Not to mention that they quite possibly never find out that Elves become Drow. Perhaps the Queen knew of the weakness and actually wanted the party to rescue them and when she hears about the death of the WC is quite upset at the party, limiting their spending from the vaults as to balance them with what they found in Thorn's End.
The WC isn't a really huge disappointment. They are built up to be this strong and powerful secret illuminati, but when the party realizes just how weak they actually are, it should be when they actually meat the council members and not anytime really before that. This way you can say that both the demons and the elves believe that the council is still strong. The party should like ours almost pity them in a way.
But then again, it's your game. You run it the way you want. I thought our GM ran it well even while rushing through it. While a lot was assumed, that's how the players have to see it.
Hmmm... reading this bit about many different folks perceptions of the Winter Council from Second Darkness (an AP that I really enjoyed reading, and tried to GM, but had trouble with my group of players...) anyway, I never got the impression that the Winter Council was weak, certainly not as I was reading the adventure anyway. (I guess I see what many are getting at, but I still do not think that those elves were weak.) Currently disheartened, yes. Disorganized, yes. Adrift and (more or less) leaderless, YES. I don't have the AP in front of me right now, but weren't each of the remaining four something on the order of 13th to 15th level? That alone (in game terms and statistics) I feel doesn't make them weak. But as I've just been babbling, I DO see how they are viewed as weak due to their current disorganization. And as someone else pointed out, the fact that they were weakened, yet still seemed powerful and omnipresent, is a testament to the power they are able to wield.
I wish I had been able to continue with this AP, I think the group would have enjoyed it very much, and the one guy LOVES drow... like A LOT! I think he'd have enjoyed getting to be one (sort of) and I know that my players (as a whole) would have been like WTF! when they witness one of the Winter Council change into a Drow right before their eyes! (And if I had the chance to run it and get to this point, I'd have a better "leg" to stand on as far as GM experiences and what I and/or my players thought about the Winter Council, Thorn's End, and Treerazer's demon horde. (Hmmm... perhaps I can try again with Second Darkness... maybe after finishing Legacy of Fire... although I do have an "interrupted" storyline to get back to with my "new" group who got involved in LoF thanks in no small part to player (and character) curiousity. (I started them off with part 4 of the AP.)
Okay... sorry for the "near" thread-jacking.
For what it's worth I enjoyed Second Darkness (reading it anyway) and I believe it would be a great AP to run, or play.
Sorry it wasn't to everyone's taste.
Dean; the Minstrel_Wyrm