A large amount of responsibility for the situation is mine I don’t deny it. I will post my mistakes one at a time to help others avoid the same mistakes
Mistake one - Choosing STAP for "my group". First of all the STAP is brilliant but my group is not suited to it. The size of the group is about 8ish. This meant that I had a bit of extra work to do to make it suitable for 8 players.
About half of the guys are casual players turning up at every other session.
So for the Casuals I was constantly readjusting things as they turned up.
I try and weave as much of the customers back stories in to the game as possible but with 8 people I found that I was focusing on those that were into the game more than the casuals.
We play 1 session every other week.
I have:
4 role players (these guys get into their characters)- one casual
1 role player with a multiple personality disorder (he comes up with brilliant character concepts but gets tired of the current character retires it to make a new one).
1 roll player (Just wants to roll the dice) - casual
1 Lurker - Happy to drink beer eat pizza rolls the dice when told to. Casual to full
1 good dm not so good player only turned up to a few games and the leader of the rebellion.
I will post more later
Ouch - yeah, STAP is not actually too difficult to upgun for a larger group except in the "solo" encounters, since you literally only have to add numbers of critters. Those you would have wanted to do up a "8 man" stat block for, which a number of suitable stat blocks could be found on the other campaign and STAP threads.
I'm interested to hear this too. I myself am responsible for a DM overthrow (the DM's NPC's were constantly overshadowing the players, and the DM would develop in depth the backstories of players he liked in the game, even though they did'nt show up that often, over the rest of the players). Because of this I am naturally a little sensitive to being usurped myself.
I'm interested to hear this too. I myself am responsible for a DM overthrow (the DM's NPC's were constantly overshadowing the players, and the DM would develop in depth the backstories of players he liked in the game, even though they did'nt show up that often, over the rest of the players). Because of this I am naturally a little sensitive to being usurped myself.
The irony is that you were in the same group and just don't know each other's online names. :)
Sorry to hear that you got sacked. Personally, if my players wanted a new DM, all they'd have to do is ask and provide an alternative. I hate DMing and really want to play.
HMMM.... if the leader of the rebellion guy wants to dungeonmaster, maybe he could take half the guys and you take half and keep the game rolling? Just a thought...8 is a lot.
Thanks guys :-)
I wasn’t so much angry as disappointed at the overthrow. I had put a lot of effort into the game.
Heath: We are all old uni friends, Part of the reason we get together is just to hang out. :-)
8 is too many but I don’t want to turn away any friends.
Mistake Two:
Not spending more time in Sasserine. Sasserine is one of the best FRP cities in existence.
The players loved the City and were getting themselves heavily involved in the cities politics.
Mistake Three: Getting railroady – major, major mistake I was excited by the narrative and thought that the players were as well.
I should have just gone with the flow and let the players follow their own course, Instead of pushing them into the expedition.
More to follow
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32
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Hmmm, don't be too hard on yourself - the STAP is railroady - look at landing on the Isle. I've said several times to my group that it's an Adventure Path and not a campaign - they're part of a bigger story, caught up in something that goes beyond their world, rather than making the story themselves.
They still complain about some stuff but it's starting to sink in. Just in time, since they're up against the Mother next, and then it's railroad city!
Hmmm, don't be too hard on yourself - the STAP is railroady - look at landing on the Isle. I've said several times to my group that it's an Adventure Path and not a campaign - they're part of a bigger story, caught up in something that goes beyond their world, rather than making the story themselves.
They still complain about some stuff but it's starting to sink in. Just in time, since they're up against the Mother next, and then it's railroad city!
Well, Carb, don't forget the Nixie/Wyvern switch, option. It worked great for our group.
Don't forget a few things:
Mamma is, if you run her "as written", a guaranteed death sentence for characters of that level.
I'd recommend having the Dragon Turtle be the method of shipwreck implementation, bellowing in Aquan "No Toll, No Passage!" as the ship is tossed ashore by the behemoth amidst the storm.
There's nothing better than coming back a few levels later to whupp some dragon turtle kiester as a motivator. ^_^
Olangru is a FUN villain - be sure to peruse the various campaign threads of others' implementations of the beastie, and take your own unique spin. There are at least a solid dozen different takes on him to use and again, make it personal.
Avoid the hatchet job of a trap room (the one with the mirrors ... ugh).
But, then again, you're about to tell a tale of woe and GM usurpation...
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32
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While we wait for the tale of woe...
Troy: You're right, I haven't decided if I'm going to do that yet. I'm thinking of letting the party find those Shadow Charts from last year's RPG Superstar. They set sail, take a shortcut through the Plane of Shadow, and reappear either on the Reef or on top of/ close to Emraag. After that I'm not sure if I want them to have to save Lavinia again. They'll be happier doing their own thing, fighting their way to Farshore where Lavinia & the rest are cooking breakfast for them.
Turin: Is the mother so tough? I've been boosting her stats and making extra guardian beasties for her... Vine Deathbugs! Mind you, my party of 5 is almost level 8 and have Spell & Magic Item Compendium goodness.
Sorry for the conversation in the middle of your thread, Dwarf Number 8!
One of my original players moved away and ended up reading the STAP afterword. He said he was surprised how much back story was in each of them--which was an agreement to a point I raised during BG. It is difficult to get this through to players in usual play (without metagaming) I have taken to letting the players read the adventures once we are two or three ahead.
I agree that Sasserine is one of the best developed cities we did not actually get to play in. (I worked War of the Wielded during BG though). If any of the players discover their affiliation score is actually useless once they have enough affiliation score to matter (ie now we are on the Isle of Dread) I expect a mutiny myself.
I used Emrag/Mother to damage the ship making the DC to find safe route through the reef that much higher. Had my original player not moved away he too would likely have mutinied as his sailing skills was uberover good.
He said he was surprised how much back story was in each of them--which was an agreement to a point I raised during BG. It is difficult to get this through to players in usual play (without metagaming)
This was exactly why we started our blog and I wrote Lavinia's Diary. I knew there would be details that the players wouldn't catch at the table with all the cross talk and I wanted to give them a chance to re-visit the details throughout the week and digest at their own pace. I knew they completly missed the "love potion prank" mentioned in Lavinia's talk about her brother, and that was so far back in the beginning, I wanted to bring that more into focus with the diary. Plus, it had awesome intra-player implications. Good stuff.
Can't wait to hear the whole story about the OP.
While we wait for the tale of woe...
Turin: Is the mother so tough? I've been boosting her stats and making extra guardian beasties for her... Vine Deathbugs! Mind you, my party of 5 is almost level 8 and have Spell & Magic Item Compendium goodness.
If you examine two of her abilities you should find that they are rather poorly worded. Subject to a rather literal interpretation, she can swarm anything on her sargasso under with unlimited numbers of mooks or equivelant to greater teleport without any limit or action type at a whim.
In essence, the PCs can be lured to her ship - then she (having been aware of them pretty much since they arrived) can *poof* to the PCs' ship, slaughter every one therein, *poof* back and tidal-wave the entire character group with a few thousand pretty tough mooks.
See, this is where I think the DM’s job is to interpret the scenario and his players. First, is Momma all that smart and devious? I mean, why “lure” anyone away? She can keep sending more and more goons every night. She’s in no hurry. The only reason she would lure anyone anywhere is if she perceived the party to be a threat to be isolated, which I don’t think she does. She’ll keep it simple because there’s no reason, in her perception, to get fancy. As for the teleport thing, that could work against her. In the ship, she has a winning tactic – she is the 300 at Thermopylae. The PCs almost have to line up to get killed individually. As soon as she starts jaunting, all bets are off.
Limitless goons? Again, that’s up to the DM, but I decided that there are only so many ships that have gotten guzzled by her with a finite number of crew. A lot, to be certain, and the nearby ship with the journal is likely the source of the newborns in her gut, but she can’t just create these things from nothing. She won’t fight a war of attrition. After a night or two in which she loses her babies with no replacements, she ups the ante.
Agreed on GM Interpretation being a requirement.
Just be sure to read the abilities - as written, they are free actions to activate and have no limitations on her use - far worse than the 300 at Thermopylae (although 300 of her finest mini-onions) as they take a bit more to put down...
Agreed on GM Interpretation being a requirement.
Just be sure to read the abilities - as written, they are free actions to activate and have no limitations on her use - far worse than the 300 at Thermopylae (although 300 of her finest mini-onions) as they take a bit more to put down...
I meant the bottleneck strategy, not equivalency of strength, you insane shroud-monger!
Besides, we all know it wasn’t just 300 Spartans. There was also about 400 Thebans and 700 Thespians. And boy, you get 700 Thespians in one place, and watch out! You got yourself some serious choreography. We’re talking The Jets meet Love is a Battlefield. Hold on to your toothpick – you’re gonna get a glass of water in the face and some serious shoulder action!
Jazz handsss!!
Agreed on GM Interpretation being a requirement.
Just be sure to read the abilities - as written, they are free actions to activate and have no limitations on her use - far worse than the 300 at Thermopylae (although 300 of her finest mini-onions) as they take a bit more to put down...
I meant the bottleneck strategy, not equivalency of strength, you insane shroud-monger!
Besides, we all know it wasn’t just 300 Spartans. There was also about 400 Thebans and 700 Thespians. And boy, you get 700 Thespians in one place, and watch out! You got yourself some serious choreography. We’re talking The Jets meet Love is a Battlefield. Hold on to your toothpick – you’re gonna get a glass of water in the face and some serious shoulder action!
Jazz handsss!!
Think it was a few thousand mooks and about six guys with the Leadership feat and a high CHA. ^^ too bad they all lost their mini-onions...
'Sides, TPK'ing with the Mother is "meh". TPK'ing with Olangru - priceless if you get it. ^^
Besides, we all know it wasn’t just 300 Spartans. There was also about 400 Thebans and 700 Thespians. And boy, you get 700 Thespians in one place, and watch out! You got yourself some serious choreography. We’re talking The Jets meet Love is a Battlefield. Hold on to your toothpick – you’re gonna get a glass of water in the face and some serious shoulder action!
Jazz handsss!!
Back
Mistake 4:
Not taking a break between “Episodes”, I was beginning to burn out the prep for each session can be a bit of a killer, especially when you have a baby. The the players were also getting tired and their wives were having kids as well.
What I should have done was at the end of each episode was have a session playing Diplomacy or Talisman or just watching a movie.
Troy: Just an interesting asside Eros (The god of lust, and Love) was the main god worshiped in Thespiae.
Mistake 4:Not taking a break between “Episodes”, I was beginning to burn out the prep for each session can be a bit of a killer, especially when you have a baby. The the players were also getting tired and their wives were having kids as well.
What I should have done was at the end of each episode was have a session playing Diplomacy or Talisman or just watching a movie.
Yeah we take turns running adventures so STAP, to another GMs Homebrew. It is a great break for me (and I get to play too :) plus coming back to an old campaign is like coming back to a new character so it reduces burnout on the players end. At this rate we will not finish STAP until 2010 :)
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Ok, as one of the 8th Dwarf's players, I think the STAP was an awesome choice and damn well wish we could finish the damn thing... I think I made it clear that I ENJOYED IT...
However...
"4 role players (these guys get into their characters)- one casual"
I better be one of these...
"1 role player with a multiple personality disorder (he comes up with brilliant character concepts but gets tired of the current character retires it to make a new one)"
You mean me don't you...
Crud!
Mistake Three: Getting railroady – major, major mistake I was excited by the narrative and thought that the players were as well.I should have just gone with the flow and let the players follow their own course, Instead of pushing them into the expedition.
I don't think there is any easy way to do APs and not have things get kind of rail roady. I mean a few DMs might be so talented that they can always lead their players around by the noise without the players ever having any clue that everything is not flowing completely organically from their actions but this has got to be a pretty rare situation. For everyone else your more or less stuck with deciding to what kind of a game it is you and your players want. A free form Story Now type game probably set in Sasserine? Or a much more Story Before game that follows the plot line but is a railroad track. Sure the players can get off the train at some 'stops' (the colony on the isle for example) but for the most part the plot line was decided before they even started playing and they are substantially along for the ride - on the upside they hopefully get a truly gripping story.
I'd argue that the players and the DM probably should work out this sort of detail ahead of time same as with how the players divide the loot or what happens to the treasure on dead PCs. What I'd avoid is going back and forth between free form and railroads to often. It kind of jerks the players expectations around and can be very frustrating for players in terms of spending lots of time and effort working on ones plans only to have the DM 'force' the players to leave.
Hence the DM and the players should be on board for what kind of a game is going to be run - if it is to be an AP the players should be clear that they are getting on the cho-cho train. I'd even go so far as to tell the players when there are likely to be long pauses and probably talk with them about whether they want to run through this aspect of the adventure or fast forward to the next piece of the action. Pretty meta-gamey but I'd go so far as to say something along the lines of...
"OK Guy's - you've saved Farshore and have lots of time to develop contacts and such here. You want to do anything in particular in the colony or should we just fast forward?"
This lets my players know that they can get off the railroad if they want while indicating that eventually this will probably end and they'll move on.
I agree. This is partly true about every published adventure. When the players know beforehand what to expect, then they know that the adventure is a bit railroady and they go along.
If players do not like to be railroaded at all, the DM should probably not use an adventure path, or be prepared to give it up halfway when the players' plans are very different from the adventure.
It also helps to tell the players beforehand what kinds of abilities/skills/feats will be useful. When they get to use them in the adventure, they are less inclined to protest against the railroad (e.g. I told the players beforehand that they would spend time on ships, so they invested in knowledge geography and profession sailor and one of them can now be the captain of the Sea wyvern).