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I had one group that tried to switch to 4E. We didn't even get through the Kobold Hall in the DMG, before we switched to Pathfinder. The DM really didn't like the system, and the rest of us weren't enthused enough about 4E to argue. We are playing Pathfinder now, and the first session was a blast. My other group have stuck with 3.5, and are planning to switch to Pathfinder in the near future. All of the gamers I know either are mildly curious about 4E, have tried and dropped 4E, or wouldn't touch 4E with a ten foot pole.
I had one group that tried to switch to 4E. We didn't even get through the Kobold Hall in the DMG, before we switched to Pathfinder. The DM really didn't like the system, and the rest of us weren't enthused enough about 4E to argue. We are playing Pathfinder now, and the first session was a blast. My other group have stuck with 3.5, and are planning to switch to Pathfinder in the near future. All of the gamers I know either are mildly curious about 4E, have tried and dropped 4E, or wouldn't touch 4E with a ten foot pole.
I've been trying and so far it's been going ok I think. It's taken a while to get into the system but the players are getting the feel of it. I wouldn't say they are bowled over by it but getting on ok and enjoying it so far. As a DM I prefer it.
I'm fraid though not even getting through Kobold Hall suggests that you never gave it a real try and made a token effort.It does take getting used to so to give it a chance does take patience as much of it is different from 3.5 and players(and DM's) have to learn anew.
Whether it stands the test of time is going to be questoned till the next version comes out but thinking back to the very popular 2nd edition AD&D.....ultimately TSR died a death.
So much for the producers of the best version of D&D!!
What I really want to figure out is how this old zombie of a thread always seems to be on the top of the goddamn 4th edition forum, sorry I got actually 4th edition play to talk about.
Ya know the thread less then a week old. And they are indeed talking of 4e, not sure what your ranting on about but so far this has been a nice flame free thread.
I myself couldn't get thought the book, I knew 4 guys that were all 4e gun ho and now their 4e books sit on selves as they have went back to 3.5 . The game just didn't hold up to them. One told me it was a fun game but wasn't d&d . All I know is around here the one bookstore we have does not sell 4e stuff. they carry it but I have been told it just does not sell
With the exception of one or two groups, everyone I know has switched to 4e.
From what I've seen on local store shelves both at the big bookstores and at the FLGS, it's now the premier roleplaying product. I don't think our FLGS carries Pathfinder, and they've been clearing out their 3rd edition stuff for a few months now. That said, I'm not sure local store shelves are really a good way to measure how well a game is doing. Most of the guys in my group (including me) got their stuff from Amazon.
My prediction is that 4e isn't going away. It's a very solid ruleset that does what it's supposed to do very well. It's a different kind of game than 3.5/Pathfinder, and so I think there's a place in the market for both of them.
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Here's my anecdotal info, with as much perspective as I can manage on it.
At a gaming convention a week and a half ago, I managed, over the course of 7 slots, to run 5 Pathfinder Society games. During the same period, the Living Forgotten Realms bunch ran a little less than 30. They had about 70 players total; I had 14. I would suggest, then, that in my area, 4E is roughly 5 times as popular as the Paizo brand of 3.5.
On the other hand, two separate groups were playing homebrew worlds using the Pathfinder Beta - they were running two or three tables a slot, and were (as far as I know) full up every slot. (No idea how many players total they had - could well have been the same six people at each table in every slot for all I know.) Regardless, it was a heartening experience, and made me even more frustrated that I was running PFS in 3.5 instead of Pathfinder. I know I could have picked up more players with the Beta... ahem. Anyway.
I have no idea what numbers of people were, for instance, playing Living Greyhawk at the same con last year, nor do I really have any other standard of comparison for these numbers save what I have already mentioned. But one thing was completely clear: the LFR crew was easily twice the size of the next-largest game group (which was the Heroes of Rokugan crowd, just FYI). So it's clear 4E is currently ruling the roost, in absolute terms.
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Except that they're not trying to demonstrate dominance of 4th Edition over 3rd Edition in terms of sales. I've never seen them push that as being somehow important or significant. Again, the only news we have gotten was from WotC, and it was good news (core books passed their 3rd print run months ago).
Anyone know how big one of the 4e print runs are? And were they as big or bigger than a 3.x print run?
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I had one group that tried to switch to 4E. We didn't even get through the Kobold Hall in the DMG, before we switched to Pathfinder. The DM really didn't like the system, and the rest of us weren't enthused enough about 4E to argue. We are playing Pathfinder now, and the first session was a blast. My other group have stuck with 3.5, and are planning to switch to Pathfinder in the near future. All of the gamers I know either are mildly curious about 4E, have tried and dropped 4E, or wouldn't touch 4E with a ten foot pole.I've been trying and so far it's been going ok I think. It's taken a while to get into the system but the players are getting the feel of it. I wouldn't say they are bowled over by it but getting on ok and enjoying it so far. As a DM I prefer it.
I'm fraid though not even getting through Kobold Hall suggests that you never gave it a real try and made a token effort.
It does take getting used to so to give it a chance does take patience as much of it is different from 3.5 and players(and DM's) have to learn anew.
Whether it stands the test of time is going to be questoned till the next version comes out but thinking back to the very popular 2nd edition AD&D.....ultimately TSR died a death.
So much for the producers of the best version of D&D!!
I've played 4E several times before, and the DM and several other members of the group have been playing it since it came out in June. They tried to play through KotS and were stymied by repeated TPK's. I'd say we have enough 4E experience under our belts, to decide that it wasn't for us. The DM said that something had been bothering him about 4E from the beginning, and he finally realized that the feel of the game was all wrong, and it just wasn't D&D to him. I even encouraged them to try it for a little while longer, but in the end I realized that I really didn't want to play 4E either, and I definitely didn't want to go and spend a lot of money on 4E materials. After we played our first Pathfinder session, we all were quite pleased, and he said that the gaming experience we just had was what he had been missing.
I had one group that tried to switch to 4E. We didn't even get through the Kobold Hall in the DMG, before we switched to Pathfinder. The DM really didn't like the system, and the rest of us weren't enthused enough about 4E to argue. We are playing Pathfinder now, and the first session was a blast. My other group have stuck with 3.5, and are planning to switch to Pathfinder in the near future. All of the gamers I know either are mildly curious about 4E, have tried and dropped 4E, or wouldn't touch 4E with a ten foot pole.
I do enjoy Pathfinder and will play that in Preference to 3.5 but at later levels it still suffers from the same issues of 3.5. The saves of all class's are out of wack- any Will Save a fighter will fail, any Refex will drop the mage, the Spellcasting system is way out of line and inevitably lead to the mage killing everything instead if the fighter, the Cleric casting a few spells and becoming an unstoppable Melee monster and the thief able to do more damage with his sneak attacks than one of the USA armies Surface to air Missiles.
Low levels the games great but the cracks show at 9th level, becoming impossible about 15th level( which is generally the level our local games stop). I did run a campaign into the 25th level but eventually found that if any combat was intended then it took a single combat encounter to fill.
I've never really understood the "its just not D&D" feeling that seems so prevalant. What is D&D? Can someone quantify it? Is it quantifiable?
I've also never really understood what I can only describe at nerdrage at the new rules system.
I suppose it becuase I divorce roleplaying from rules. I played an amazing session once during a 12 hour road trip throught france thats entire rules sytem invovled flipping coins and how many cigerette butts you had.
We finished our year long Ptolus campiagn 1 month after 4e was announced then got involved in a 4e campiagn with a new dm which ran for a few months until the DM had to leave for personal reasons. We are now starting a campiagn with our old DM in 4e and seeing as he has DMed for that past 6 years, he is really excited about DMing 4e (he run a few one offs) as he says the system is much slicker and easier to run as a DM, therefore he cant spend more time working on the roleplay and coming up with interesting a crqzy stuff, rather than stating up a NPC.
Im the only one in the group who has ever heard of Pathfinder RPG, and in 3.5 the group only had the core books (3 only had the PHB). Since 4e only one only has the PHB, and most have bought the core books, adventurers vault and recently martial power. I have everything released by WotC for 4e (except the character sheets) and nearly everything they released for 3.5. but I do see that my group are now much more interested in new books for 4e, although I think this has something to with the fact we only ever really played "PHB only" 3.5.
I love 3.5 and have had some amazing times playing in it, and i also love 4e as it given me something new to think about and play with, and im sure my play expereinces will be just as good and im looking forward to them very much!
my god i ramble!
I've never really understood the "its just not D&D" feeling that seems so prevalant. What is D&D? Can someone quantify it? Is it quantifiable?Unfortunately, the "feel" of D&D is and always will be subjective. So I suppose I'd have to say it isn't quantifiable.
From my own point of view, I prefer to hearken back to the more complex rules of the older editions, and the simplicity of 4e changes that feel for me. However, I have to say it still seems to me to be D&D, however much I prefer more complexity.
On the other hand, one of the gamers in my group had a very disagreeable reaction to 4e, and called it "Playschool D&D". His opinion was that it wasn't designed for "real" gamers, but is a "kindergarten starter set".
There's no real objective way to describe an emotional response to something.
Out of curiosity, why do you enjoy complexity?
My group seem to prefer 4e becuase of its simplicity so we spend less time thinking about the fine details of the rules and more time with the roleplay. Conversly and slightly contradictory we are all (DM included) Warhammer players and enjoy the tactical challenge of 4e combat. Especially against tactically compentant opponents (which really is the remit of the DM to "roleplay" this competance with relevant enemies).
I must admit I do enjoy reading my old 2ed stuff. Just found I have my old Dark Sun stuff (including the ring binder that had my campaign written in) in a box of old bits ive been carting around for a decade. My wife couldnt understand why I found it so exciting (but she cant understand why I enjoy spending every thursday pretending to be an elf). It is to be honest pretty crazy rules set though. lvl 19/19 mul fighter/psionist WTF? The fluff that came with the old books was cool (I especially like the bit about paladins) and I suppose you got more a sense of advancement out of it, as you really did have to raise some spud from being the town whipping boy to a hardcore swordmaster. Especially if you rolled 3d6 in order and got anything over a 13.
But my early DnD experinces kind of pale in comparison to my later ones, but that definately an age/maturity thing.
My group seem to prefer 4e becuase of its simplicity so we spend less time thinking about the fine details of the rules and more time with the roleplay. Conversly and slightly contradictory we are all (DM included) Warhammer players and enjoy the tactical challenge of 4e combat. Especially against tactically compentant opponents (which really is the remit of the DM to "roleplay" this competance with relevant enemies).
I see the new system as more roleplay and less option for rules abuse in the game. You roleplay your individual Powers(exploits,spells etc) and can roleplay out of combat same as before. I did begin with a very attitude because of 'Nay sayers' but then tried looking at the positive options of the system and found a lot to work with.
My group currently only plays 4E, having taken a look at Pathfinder RPg and found that it didn't fix the things we were unhappy about in 3.5E.
We are having a blast at it, yes the rules are completely different, yes many of the holy cows are dead. But we find that the rules are much more fun, and the players that wouldn't give certain classes a time of day are having great fun playing them i 4E (Wizards and leaders mostly).
We are playing the Savage tide, that i have converted to 4E, a process that was extremely easy. The advendture was easy to pace to 30 lvs, the cosmolgy issues were surpringsigly easy to find a solution for(I am for one not missing the great wheel).
I can't see that we will be switching back to 3,5E, except to play Star Wars. I am for one looking forward to next years releases.
On the saled note, i have read that the 4E doesn't sell nearly as well as 3,0 did when it came out. But then again, that also sold like hot cakes and it was diffenrent times back then.
We are having a blast at it, yes the rules are completely different, yes many of the holy cows are dead. But we find that the rules are much more fun, and the players that wouldn't give certain classes a time of day are having great fun playing them i 4E (Wizards and leaders mostly).
I can't see that we will be switching back to 3,5E, except to play Star Wars. I am for one looking forward to next years releases.
For me I second the statement "My group currently only plays 4E, having taken a look at Pathfinder RPg and found that it didn't fix the things we were unhappy about in 3.5E" but it is a prefence to 3.5 for the group I play with.
I'm suprised about Star Wars, I found the Saga System to be much better than previous Star Wars editions. Jedi especially can't just keep using powers until they work and they don't overbear the group.
From Hasbo's Quarterly Statement, 10-31-2008, ... The increases in gross profit were partially offset in the quarter and nine months by increased operating expenses reflecting increased product development spending as a result of increased investment in the Company's digital initiative related to its Wizards of the Coast subsidiary;
Wow. I knew they were sinking serious money into the digital initiative, but for it be even a blip on Hasbro's reports, that must be some serious cash. I know D&D in it's entirety has either never or at most rarely registered on Hasbro's reports.
Sorry, I was just amazed to see that. I knew the digital initiative was big, but from my experience with big corporations, it's gotta be bigger than I thought to register quarter after quarter in reports for a company the size of Hasbro.
Chief Technical Officer
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Wow. I knew they were sinking serious money into the digital initiative, but for it be even a blip on Hasbro's reports, that must be some serious cash. I know D&D in it's entirety has either never or at most rarely registered on Hasbro's reports.
Keep in mind that the digital initiative encompassed online games and (especially) Magic: The Gathering stuff; D&D would be a relatively small part of that pie.
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Wow. I knew they were sinking serious money into the digital initiative, but for it be even a blip on Hasbro's reports, that must be some serious cash. I know D&D in it's entirety has either never or at most rarely registered on Hasbro's reports.Keep in mind that the digital initiative encompassed online games and (especially) Magic: The Gathering stuff; D&D would be a relatively small part of that pie.
Here's a quote from the Q3 Analyst call that speaks to this:
"As we have been discussing all year, throughout 2008 we have been investing in growing the future of our business in the digital arena as well as emerging markets. We have also been laying the groundwork for our entertainment endeavors, investing in script writing as our Universal deal gets off the ground.
In the early part of the year these and other investments were running us about $15 to $20 million a quarter and had a more pronounced impact on our operating profit margins as revenues in the early part of the year are lower than later in the year.
While we have been investing this year in getting these new areas of our business up and running we have also begun to see revenue from many of these ventures, as well as seeing less of an impact to our operating profit margins as our overall revenues are higher.
Our digital partnership with EA is expected to be a profitable business for us in 2008 with most of the revenues for this year occurring now in the fourth quarter, while our investment in the infrastructure has been occurring all year long.
We do not expect the cost of this part of our business to grow meaningfully, but they will continue at announced stable level, as we have added the people to support this business. As the revenues begin to grow we also expect this business to carry a higher operating profit margin than our more traditional toy and game business. Additionally, we have been investing in our Wizards of the Coast Dungeons and Dragons Insider a subscription based online service. This site is now up and running and generating revenue."
I think Vic's core point as to the role ot WOTC's in the overall revenue mix for Hasbro is correct. It is relatively small and just one brand among many. However, the only reference to D&D in the Q3 call is to note Insider is now generating revenue. This points to some awareness of the importance of D&D in the overall digital strategy of Hasbro, if not in its direct revenue contribution. There may be more strategic than material importance here. Alternatively, this may be an area that Habro has been queried about, and this is pure message control. Either is possible.
I read this as the Hasbro execs pointing the the positive benefits of this digital investment and this being an example of their success.
As to the quality of the material, your mileage may vary. I think it has steadily improved but is still way behind Paizo. That is the topic for another thread.
I have not plowed through all the transcript calls. If you want to check them out you can start here.
This report goes on to highlight one important, but nearly overlooked fact:
If you want the D&D brand to remain strong and to succeed, buy an Easy-Bake oven.
Anyone want a cookie?
I've never really understood the "its just not D&D" feeling that seems so prevalant. What is D&D? Can someone quantify it? Is it quantifiable?
Closest I've ever been able to come (and someone touched on it here already) is the simulationist feel vs. the cinematic feel.
It's certainly not a complete answer, but it is the best I've heard so far.
Out of curiosity, why do you enjoy complexity?
I think many people enjoy the "simulationist" feel of the older editions. The earlier rules had a fairly strong basing in reality, and a consistency with the game's internal reality overrode game balance throughout the rules. Some people are looking for that, because they like that style of play.
4e doesn't provide that experience - the rules are geared for gameplay and not to provide a simulation of reality, but rather provide quick and simple game mechanics.
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Having recently done a report on Hasbro for my business class, the company is second only to Mattel and over the course of this year, they have actually outperformed the EL Segundo based toy company each quarter.
How does this affect me personally? Not much. In the end, I'm still giving my support to Paizo where and when I can. They have my trust. WoTC does not. And that matters more to me than anything.
anything changed with sales, and I think they were doing fine, except that when the price of oil shot up, the profit margin for minis shrank quite a bit, and suddenly "good sales" didn't quite mean the same thing.
As much as I've had problems with WOTC, I'd rather hit them with things they actually did than try to assume that everything they do is disingenuous.
Except wizard's own comments are that miniatures game play was way, way down, so something was going wrong - and they chose to pretend everything was going great up until the day they killed it.
Note that the minis game is only one piece of the sales question for D&D minis, but anecdotal evidence is very strong that sales are down for their minis line in general. I don't think you can draw the conclusion that sales AREN'T down from the thread on these boards, but you certainly can get that impression frequenting the miniatures-oriented boards (people are buying cases less, not just a few less).
Actually, they pointed out that Sanctioned Tournament play was down and that was mostly the fault of rewriting the rules to match 4E rather then use the community feedback to fix some things that were broken. I don't fault them at all for cutting back the mini line, but I hope that at some point they bring a real line back.
My group is mixed on 4e. We ran Burnt Offerings with the new edition as a test of the system. The results were varied.
One player hates it because he feels it 'railroads' character options and gets bored doing the same things round after round. He also feels the multiclassing rules are rubbish.
One player loves it because it gives him enough options to be satisfied while letting him feel like an overpowered fantasy hero like you would read about in a novel.
One player doesn't really know any better as this was her first tabletop exeperience.
The last player has mixed feelings, falling somewhere between the first two players' opinions.
As DM, I too have mixed feelings.
First, I like 4e because it makes running a game easier for me than 3.x did, and lets me throw lots of interesting and varied combat encounters at the group.
Second, I dislike 4e because it took all the old D&D'isms and either tweeked them or got rid of them entirely. That and the rules are different enough that it truly doesn't give that 'D&D feel' that I like.
Lastly, being time strapped, I don't homebrew. This means all my favorite settings are in the older editions, and I don't really want to 'waste' time converting them to 4e (not counting the new forgotten realms, which I am still forming an opinion about).
So we are starting an Eberron game using the Pathfinder Beta rules. We want to like 4e, but for now it is missing something for most of our group.
After all that, I'll say that as for our local area (around 100,000 people total population for those who are wondering) 4e seems to be selling ok, but not overpoweringly so.
The three main stores (two LGS and a Borders) all carry 4e, but still sell or promote 3.5 (exception being Borders, which only carries the new stuff).
Each of the LGS's host multiple 3.5 w/houserules games, but absolutely no 4e games. The owners like the money 4e brings, but haven't seen any of the major gaming groups switching over. In their opinions, most groups are experimenting with 4e, but not fully converting over for whatever reason.
Personally, I feel the same way as these owners. D&D 3.5, and Pathfinder RPG, isn't broken enough to warrent a switch to an entirely new system, especially one that will fundamentally change the experience we are used to and have fun with.
WotC may be selling well so far, but I will be interested in how they are doing a year from now, once the 'new car smell' wears off and people form more rational opinions about the strengths and faults of 4e as a whole.
I think you can already tell how it's doing, just look at the layoffs they handed out...
These layoffs were people who worked under the D&D Insider initiative, which has been lackluster thus far. You won't find any of the 4E developers on that list (Rob Heinsoo, Andy Collins, James Wyatt, Mike Mearls, Stephen Schubert, etc...) with the possible exception of Dave Noonan.
And considering the failure of the D&D Insider initiative up to this point compared to their goals, it would make sense to do some "reorganizing" in that department.
DDI was to be a part of 4e tho, they also laid-off the art director..
Oh I know the lay-offs are hitting everywhere, since I was laid-off once already this year, and the company I'm working for now, is in trouble.
D&Di is a supplment to 4th Edition. It's not necessary to play 4E D&D. Also, WotC has had many art directors and them laying off one doesn't spell doom for D&D at all...
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Sure.
We'll see what happens to 4e...I know even the people in my group who were open minded about 4e have dropped it now...one sold his books to another, and that one has finally dropped the idea of running a 4e game.
I just hope Paizo lasts through this recession...that's why even though I'm hurting for cash, I still have my Pathfinder Subs.
But good luck to all, and I hope for the state of role-playing games that these games last, in all manner of inception, even 4e.
We'll see what happens to 4e...I know even the people in my group who were open minded about 4e have dropped it now...
For every story like this, there's 10 that speak of everyone they know abandoning old editions and playing only 4th Edition. The only thing this anecdote has evidence of is the fact that you play with like-minded gamers.
...one sold his books to another, and that one has finally dropped the idea of running a 4e game.
Sounds like at least ONE of your gaming group is interested in 4th Edition... Considering he paid for the "other's" books...
-snip- Easy-Bake Oven -snip-PAIZO should get a license and publish the Easy-Bake-Oven RPG!
"You are all chefs and looking for a new receipe. There is a rumour of the "fantastic cake" receipt. You have to go to the Tower of evil chef Gordon Ramsey, win a cooking duel and get the receipt. If you win, you receive more cooking powers and a better oven. With this power you can even attack three or four star chefs...."
I think you meant "recipe" dude. receipts are things you get to prove purchase of goods. Haha - that's funny. Get my cooking receipt! Man.
"Hey, Gordon, I bought this pie from you, I'm here at the tower, now where's my receipt??" Geez.
"I need it for tax purposes".
-snip- Easy-Bake Oven -snip-PAIZO should get a license and publish the Easy-Bake-Oven RPG!
"You are all chefs and looking for a new receipe. There is a rumour of the "fantastic cake" receipt. You have to go to the Tower of evil chef Gordon Ramsey, win a cooking duel and get the receipt. If you win, you receive more cooking powers and a better oven. With this power you can even attack three or four star chefs...."
Pfft. I took the Iron Chef path, acquired the Apron of Fearless Seasoning, the Wok of Yan and the Spatula of Sage Brown. I fear no Ramsey.
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Pfft. I took the Iron Chef path, acquired the Apron of Fearless Seasoning, the Wok of Yan and the Spatula of Sage Brown. I fear no Ramsey.-snip- Easy-Bake Oven -snip-PAIZO should get a license and publish the Easy-Bake-Oven RPG!
"You are all chefs and looking for a new receipe. There is a rumour of the "fantastic cake" receipt. You have to go to the Tower of evil chef Gordon Ramsey, win a cooking duel and get the receipt. If you win, you receive more cooking powers and a better oven. With this power you can even attack three or four star chefs...."
But you shall fear Morimoto! bwahahahaha...
On topic, I remember Lisa's post about how a small "core" of those invested in a hobby tends to account for a large amount of sales (believe this was in relation to her Star Wars Geeklove). I think the same is true of RPGs and DnD, and that of those that have not converted, a significant portion are part of that core, that do drop 1k or more a year (purely a guess on my part, and also a reflection on the Paizo subscription). Only time will tell. Either way, good gaming to all!
Pfft. I took the Iron Chef path, acquired the Apron of Fearless Seasoning, the Wok of Yan and the Spatula of Sage Brown. I fear no Ramsey.But you shall fear Morimoto! bwahahahaha...
With good reason! The man studied with the fearsome Sakai!
I think you can already tell how it's doing, just look at the layoffs they handed out...
The same layoffs occurred when 3rd Edition was released. Game companies ramp up staffing to work on large projects (like 4th Edition) in order to get them out the door in decent quality, and then lower their staffing levels once the big project is completed to conserve costs. This isn't cause for alarm.
If you find yourself thinking "This means the doom of 4th Edition!" or anything along those lines, ask yourself first why you didn't look for a more reasonable answer instead of immediately jumping to the knee-jerk conclusion of "Layoffs must mean D&D is failing."
The same layoffs occurred when 3rd Edition was released. Game companies ramp up staffing to work on large projects (like 4th Edition) in order to get them out the door in decent quality, and then lower their staffing levels once the big project is completed to conserve costs. This isn't cause for alarm.
I thought it was so that when they do their final quarterly report/end of year thingie they can now 'ignore/deduct' several employees worth of yearly salaries and say "See! We're making LOTS of money!" (i.e., they actually made $1000, but if they fire 3 guys who each made $500 they can then say See! We made $2500!). Someone once explained that this is what and why "some companies" lay-off/fire people just before x-mas.
^_^
Paul L. Ming