I have not found anything yet explaining what how to handle 'NPC character' as opponents. You know, a 4th level Wizard as opposed to a 4th level Blaster. I know the design philosphy is that the guy will only last few rounds, so use a predesigned monster, but if a fight should break out how much experience is a NPC (designed with character levels) worth? Furthermore, I like the idea of occasionally making a character to throw at the PCs.
I now await the verbal jabs as it is probably as plain as day in the DMG on page xxx.
You mean like the class templates on page 182-183 of the DMG? ;)
Nah, I mean this guys is a 5th level controller. He is worth 400XP and is appropriate for a group around 4th level. (I made that up)
Also what happens when your group decides that your sage, that is not a intended as combatant, deserves to die. For no particularly good reason just because they are player characters and are proficient at causing chaos. He retired as a 9th level Warlock.
Can I just say 9th level warlock equals a 9th level Blaster for XP? Do I ignore the daily powers and only let him use his at-will and encounter powers? Is there a reason we can not have PC's fight monsters that are made using character creation rules? Are they unbalanced somehow? I mean, the guy is only going to last a few rounds anyways how much harm can I cause?
EDIT: I understand they intend me to add the template to a monster. But when I got this guy already stat'ed up, why should I go to the MM?
Possibly using the experience award for a 9th level elite.
Still sounds like something of a hole in the rules to me. I sure don't mind using the NPC rules for a fight with some random NPC but if they are fighting a very specific guy that they have adventured with before then he has to do the same things as he did when they were allies.
That said we can make a rough guess as to what the value of a normally statted out (N)PC is worth. We know from the guidelines that if you make an encounter 4 levels above the PCs your getting into really hard mode. Right around this point we are approaching a place where the chances of the PCs winning the fight are around 50-50.
Hence it stands to reason that a PC class is essentially a monster worth its level +4 in terms of XP. That said PCs are very much designed to work as a group. They get a lot weaker in smaller groups or alone.
I'd probably go with some kind of scale, for example:
PC alone = Level+2
Two or Three PCs of different classes = Level +3 each
Four or more PCs representing a wide range of classes = Level +4 each.
I have not found anything yet explaining what how to handle 'NPC character' as opponents. You know, a 4th level Wizard as opposed to a 4th level Blaster. I know the design philosphy is that the guy will only last few rounds, so use a predesigned monster, but if a fight should break out how much experience is a NPC (designed with character levels) worth? Furthermore, I like the idea of occasionally making a character to throw at the PCs.
I now await the verbal jabs as it is probably as plain as day in the DMG on page xxx.
The NPC can be made up using the full rules as if he were a PC, give XP as to the difficulty of the fight but if this is an NPC that you didn't want them to fight give him an escape card( teleport if he's a PC or similar) and with his parting words give a warning 'You've chosen to make an enemy this day and I will not forget' or something similar and dramatic.
I mean - I can understand the desire to not throw the players 'out of the game' through a character suddenly acting completely differently. But is that more important that actually having a more enjoyable combat? One that still has the same feel of the character, but won't:
1) Drop very quickly, thus making his presence relatively meaningless; or
2) Burn through 3 Dailies in 2 rounds, smoking whatever PC is on the receiving end of the glass cannon.
I can't say I have a real problem with having a glass cannon appear in the game every so often, Thats essentially what PCs are so it will have an authentic feel. I see this as more of a win-win then an actual problem. You get both authentic feeling opposition (which is important to me) and a combat that feels and plays a little differently. If every combat was like this then there would be a problem but if it only comes up infrequently then thats OK.
Still sounds like something of a hole in the rules to me. I sure don't mind using the NPC rules for a fight with some random NPC but if they are fighting a very specific guy that they have adventured with before then he has to do the same things as he did when they were allies.
That said we can make a rough guess as to what the value of a normally statted out (N)PC is worth. We know from the guidelines that if you make an encounter 4 levels above the PCs your getting into really hard mode. Right around this point we are approaching a place where the chances of the PCs winning the fight are around 50-50.
Hence it stands to reason that a PC class is essentially a monster worth its level +4 in terms of XP. That said PCs are very much designed to work as a group. They get a lot weaker in smaller groups or alone.
I'd probably go with some kind of scale, for example:
PC alone = Level+2
Two or Three PCs of different classes = Level +3 each
Four or more PCs representing a wide range of classes = Level +4 each.
This reasoning is sound. An elite is also equivalent to a level +4 monster in terms of XP. A single PC against an elite of their level is also generally a 50-50 proposition.
There's definitely advantages and disadvantage to each approach mentioned so far. Using a fully statted PC as a monster is good for versimilitude, but it requires more preparation and may not be as cinematic (particularly if it is 1 against many of the same level). Using the NPC creation rules is good for creating balanced encounters with minimal work.
Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
|
Re-statting a character to be used as an NPC seems like a lot of work in a game that was supposed to make DMing easier. Seems like this circumstance should be included in the rules somewhere. After all, shouldn't the BBEG be a tad more powerful than an Elite NPC at the end of a long campaign?
Just saying. YMMV.
Yeah, I'm not saying it can't be done - just that one should generally be aware of the potential dangers of it. You are probably correct that it is a rare enough circumstance to get away with it occasionally, but I still feel the need to advise caution. As long as one knows what they are getting into, it is almost a DM's job to mess about with the combats to see what they can get away with. ;)I'm probably just haunted by horrors from high-level combats in the last edition, which often came down to who won initiative and unleashed the biggest attack first - I never really found that a satisfying sort of combat, and so I probably responded a bit more forcefully to something resembling that sort of scenario. For those looking for such a thing, this might be just what the doctor ordered!
I see your point and I agree with you that 3.5 was kind of crazy in this department. I'm DMing 3.5 Maure Castle and good guys and bad guys just outright die with scary frequency.
Still in 4E glass cannons are just not what they were in 3.5. Instant kill effects almost don't exit. It'll be a short an brutal fight but no one is going to go from full health to instantly dead.
The real argument against doing this, IMO, is prep time. The DM will put a lot of work into this glass cannon and simply won't get that much more out of it then any other encounter. Hence its really a special circumstance type event. Something in the plot line has to justify the DM putting in lots of overtime on an encounter that will probably be resolved at the table faster then the average encounter since the glass cannon will probably keel over dead on round three having never had a chance to use most of its powers.