It is about Fairness. It is our responciblity to provide for our own health and our neighbours. And theres to look after ours as well as theres.
Well, that's why a British liberal and an American conservative will never come to an agreement on this particular subject.(lol).
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It is about Fairness. It is our responciblity to provide for our own health and our neighbours. And theres to look after ours as well as theres.Well, that why a British liberal and an American conservative will never come to an agreement on this particular subject.(lol).
Yup, because you're wrong. ;-)
Yup, because you're wrong. ;-)It is about Fairness. It is our responciblity to provide for our own health and our neighbours. And theres to look after ours as well as theres.Well, that why a British liberal and an American conservative will never come to an agreement on this particular subject.(lol).
Well, that's what great about our democracies, we're all entitled to our opinions.:)
Well, that's what great about our democracies, we're all entitled to our opinions.:)Yup, because you're wrong. ;-)It is about Fairness. It is our responciblity to provide for our own health and our neighbours. And theres to look after ours as well as theres.Well, that why a British liberal and an American conservative will never come to an agreement on this particular subject.(lol).
So you don't beleive in equality and fairness? You don't beleive that every one should be entitled to good healthcare. How do you justify that?
At the end of the day, i am happy to live with my Lower violent crime rates, my healthcare system a generous welfare system and the BBC. You are welcome to think they are bad things. You are under no obligation to accept them. But at the end of the day, it is my joy to know they are there when i need them and my greatest honour in life to contribute towards them. I sleep soundly knowing I do my duty for those less fortunate than my self.
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So you beleive that inequality is OK? How do you justify that?
I can't speak for Gary, but as for myself I believe in equality of opportunity, not equality of outcome. Inequality will always be a fact of life, so long as some people choose not to take advantages of the opportunities that they are given.
I will point you all at a very interesting link, especially to those Euro-lovers out there:
World Economic Stats - Debt as a % of GDP
This chart shows the following countries debt as a percentage of GDP (what the country "makes"). It basically describes how much "credit card debt" the country has because it is spending more than it makes (all figures 2007):
Canada: 25.1%
UK: 38.35%
USA: 43.98%
France: 54.27%
Germany: 57.68%
Japan: 90.78%
Italy: 100.35% (nearing economic collapse, btw - their income cannot pay their debts)This means that the US, with all of its military spending and being the last superpower left in the world, is still not as broke, on a normalized basis (% of GDP basis), as France, Germany, Japan and Italy. It also does not have the punitive taxation rates and VAT seen in these countries. Where does the debt come from for the big European countries since they have no military budget to speak of? Yep, social programs, which cannot pay for themselves even with the punitive taxation.
I don't really think your source material supports your conclusions. You state that Italy is on the verge of collapse and yet their debt as a percentage of their GDP has actually fallen over the last five or so years from a high of around 113%. Interestingly the American debt as percentage of the GDP has also fallen recently even as US government spending has ballooned. Presumably this is because, despite record government spending, the U.S. economy has grown faster still.
I'll note that having 100% debt as a percentage of your GDP is not really close to collapse, historically governments have gone much higher then this and paid it down. The US reached peaks far, far, higher then these numbers during World War II.
Think of this like a mortgage and you'll see what I mean. If you make $100,000 a year you can fairly easily get a mortgage to cover a $500,000 dollar house - which means you know have debt, as a percentage of your personal GDP of about %500 - you owe 5 times more money then you make in a year. You can pay off such a debt because your interest payments are probably no higher then about $50,000 a year (10% interest) so if you give the bank $60,000 of your $100,000 pay check you'll slowly work off the debt - in fact you'll make your last payment and be debt free in 19 years.
I'll also note that Canada, which leads your list does maintain a cradle to grave healthcare system, in fact one of the reasons we maintain this system is that, so far, its been far cheaper to run the system in this manner then to emulate America's free market approach.
Well, that's what great about our democracies, we're all entitled to our opinions.:)Yup, because you're wrong. ;-)It is about Fairness. It is our responciblity to provide for our own health and our neighbours. And theres to look after ours as well as theres.Well, that why a British liberal and an American conservative will never come to an agreement on this particular subject.(lol).So you don't beleive in equality and fairness? You don't beleive that every one should be entitled to good healthcare. How do you justify that?
At the end of the day, i am happy to live with my Lower violent crime rates, my healthcare system a generous welfare system and the BBC. You are welcome to think they are bad things. You are under no obligation to accept them. But at the end of the day, it is my joy to know they are there when i need them and my greatest honour in life to contribute towards them. I sleep soundly knowing I do my duty for those less fortunate than my self.
I didn't say anything of yours was bad. What I don't understand(and I'm not trying to be disrespectful towards any of the liberals on here) is that the liberals from foreign countries on this board have some kind of psychological need to run down our healthcare system and tell us that we have to adopt your system because your system is so much better. We conservatives believe that our system is the best, but have you heard me, David Fryer, Sam Weiss, pres man or any other conservatives try to push our system onto you? I don't understand it.
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Well, that's what great about our democracies, we're all entitled to our opinions.:)Yup, because you're wrong. ;-)It is about Fairness. It is our responciblity to provide for our own health and our neighbours. And theres to look after ours as well as theres.Well, that why a British liberal and an American conservative will never come to an agreement on this particular subject.(lol).So you don't beleive in equality and fairness? You don't beleive that every one should be entitled to good healthcare. How do you justify that?
At the end of the day, i am happy to live with my Lower violent crime rates, my healthcare system a generous welfare system and the BBC. You are welcome to think they are bad things. You are under no obligation to accept them. But at the end of the day, it is my joy to know they are there when i need them and my greatest honour in life to contribute towards them. I sleep soundly knowing I do my duty for those less fortunate than my self.
I didn't say anything of yours was bad. What I don't understand(and I'm not trying to be disrespectful towards any of the liberals on here) is that the liberals from foreign countries on this board have some kind of psychological need to run down our healthcare system and tell us that we have to adopt your system because your system is so much better. We conservatives believe that our system is the best, but have you heard me, David Fryer, Sam Weiss, pres man or any other conservatives try to push our system onto you? I don't understand it.
1) I refer you to the first post of this very thread.
2) I refer you to the last 20 or 30 years of the American government, television and population's attitude.
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Hey that sounds exactly what George Bush is doing right now! Cool huh
Buying up stocks and propping up corporations and in some cases nationalizing corporations. It most certainly has major control over resource allocation, mandates wages, supplements employment (government employment is one of the largest industries in the country), and certainly more.
I think you mean what the Democratic Congress is doing.
As I recall, it was Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid shrieking that we just had to "do something" or "else". When they failed to pass the bill the first time with even less guarantees and controlls they went into a perfect tizzy blaming everyone but themselves, then tossed a pack of pork and useless controls at the bill until it was too large to comprehend and then passed it. And now that their promised solution is failing they are off blaming Bush for somehow tricking them into passing a useless bill.Other than that, while buying up the banking industry is certainly not the best thing, it is far from establishing complete government control over the economy. That is however a good case for not bailing out the automobile industry.
Well, that's what great about our democracies, we're all entitled to our opinions.:)Yup, because you're wrong. ;-)It is about Fairness. It is our responciblity to provide for our own health and our neighbours. And theres to look after ours as well as theres.Well, that why a British liberal and an American conservative will never come to an agreement on this particular subject.(lol).So you don't beleive in equality and fairness? You don't beleive that every one should be entitled to good healthcare. How do you justify that?
At the end of the day, i am happy to live with my Lower violent crime rates, my healthcare system a generous welfare system and the BBC. You are welcome to think they are bad things. You are under no obligation to accept them. But at the end of the day, it is my joy to know they are there when i need them and my greatest honour in life to contribute towards them. I sleep soundly knowing I do my duty for those less fortunate than my self.
I didn't say anything of yours was bad. What I don't understand(and I'm not trying to be disrespectful towards any of the liberals on here) is that the liberals from foreign countries on this board have some kind of psychological need to run down our healthcare system and tell us that we have to adopt your system because your system is so much better. We conservatives believe that our system is the best, but have you heard me, David Fryer, Sam Weiss, pres man or any other conservatives try to push our system onto you? I don't understand it.
1) I refer you to the first post of this very thread.
2) I refer you to the last 20 or 30 years of the American government, television and population's attitude.
1) The first post was a knock on Americans wanting more entitlements in America. He wasn't pushing his values onto Europeans.
2) I don't think so. We're moving towards the left in this country, but you're not moving to the right. Who's influencing whom?
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1) The first post was a knock on Americans wanting more entitlements in America. He wasn't pushing his values onto...Well, that's what great about our democracies, we're all entitled to our opinions.:)Yup, because you're wrong. ;-)It is about Fairness. It is our responciblity to provide for our own health and our neighbours. And theres to look after ours as well as theres.Well, that why a British liberal and an American conservative will never come to an agreement on this particular subject.(lol).So you don't beleive in equality and fairness? You don't beleive that every one should be entitled to good healthcare. How do you justify that?
At the end of the day, i am happy to live with my Lower violent crime rates, my healthcare system a generous welfare system and the BBC. You are welcome to think they are bad things. You are under no obligation to accept them. But at the end of the day, it is my joy to know they are there when i need them and my greatest honour in life to contribute towards them. I sleep soundly knowing I do my duty for those less fortunate than my self.
I didn't say anything of yours was bad. What I don't understand(and I'm not trying to be disrespectful towards any of the liberals on here) is that the liberals from foreign countries on this board have some kind of psychological need to run down our healthcare system and tell us that we have to adopt your system because your system is so much better. We conservatives believe that our system is the best, but have you heard me, David Fryer, Sam Weiss, pres man or any other conservatives try to push our system onto you? I don't understand it.
1) I refer you to the first post of this very thread.
2) I refer you to the last 20 or 30 years of the American government, television and population's attitude.
You didn't say it had to work. ;-) You just said we shouldn't tell you how to live. Last 20 or 30 years, America very much did that to the rest of the world.
EDIT: And to quote Churchill, "The Americans will always do the right thing, after exhausting all other options." We knew you'd come around eventually. ;-)
Since canada is at the top of the list, does this make us the best model to follow? With our small military, high tax rates, VAT (called gst and pst here) and social programs?
Of course we are coming off of 15 years or so of heavy cuts to social progams, and large budget surpluses that went to pay down the national debt.
It might be that we think conservative means 'fiscally responsible', not moral majority up here still. For the most part.
*misses the red tories*
Well we did not really pay off our debt at all. Its not much lower then when our debt ballooned to around 70% of the GDP.
Really the reason our debt percentage is so low is that we hit good times at around the same time as government debt was on everyones lips. The Liberal government was the benefactor of record tax dollars and for the first time in generations decided to run a government surplus and pay down a bit of our debt instead of returning the money to the tax payers in the form of tax cuts or new government spending. The big surprise was that the voters ate it up. In hindsight maybe its not so surprising that they did. You can get pretty deep into both the left and the right by running a fiscally responsible government that is paying less and less of government earning in interest payments. It does good things for the governments image as well. After all they are supposed to be using our money responsible - well paying down the states debt is seen as pretty responsible by the centre and by the moderate Left and Moderate right.
The Right would rather tax cuts but if not tax cuts then fiscally responsible government is a pretty high 2nd best. After all if the interest payments drop that money can turn into tax cuts in the future. The Left would rather social programs but again reducing interest payments is a pretty high 2nd best. After all if the interest payments drop that money can be used for social programs in the future.
In any case we did not really pay down our debt. We just stopped adding new debt during good times and as Canada's economy grew at fairly spectacular levels the debt the government had shrank a little in real terms, as some debts were eventually paid off in full without new debt being taken out, and a lot in percentage terms as government revenue rose, due to continued high taxes in a fast growing economy, but government expenditures remained close to its original levels.
EDIT: And to quote Churchill, "The Americans will always do the right thing, after exhausting all other options." We knew you'd come around eventually. ;-)
Heaven forbid if we do the "right thing". :)
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EDIT: And to quote Churchill, "The Americans will always do the right thing, after exhausting all other options." We knew you'd come around eventually. ;-)Heaven forbid if we do the "right thing". :)
Well, actually, I'm pretty sure Heaven mandates doing the 'right thing'. The tricky bit comes in determining which of the many versions of the 'right thing' to do.
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I'll make this quick, I'm out of element in these things.
I've been out of work and sick now for four years. I've been rejected by the hospital indugent fund, the county's indugent fund, state health care, ssi, and benifits from the human resource offices. Being I have no job I've had to move back with my parents. Not fun by the way. I also can't afford insurance, and even if I could the I wouldn't be able to use it for six to nine months. Due to it being a pre-existing condition.
My mom has been trying her hardest to afford a plan, but I don't see it happening soon. She other things that take priorty (bills , feeding four other people) like most people do.
Personally, if universal healthcare is my only hope to get back on my feet I'll take it.
I'm tired of hurting. I'm tired of not being able to go out and fun. I'm tired of not being able work, as strange as that may sound. I'm tired of not being able to afford my own things. I'm tired of having to live with my parents and being a burden. Mostly I wish I could just have a job so I can help my mom who's drowning in her bills.
So I say bring on the healthcare. There are some people who don't qualify for aid from other places. And insurance is just a dream.
I'll make this quick, I'm out of element in these things.
I've been out of work and sick now for four years. I've been rejected by the hospital indugent fund, the county's indugent fund, state health care, ssi, and benifits from the human resource offices. Being I have no job I've had to move back with my parents. Not fun by the way. I also can't afford insurance, and even if I could the I wouldn't be able to use it for six to nine months. Due to it being a pre-existing condition.
My mom has been trying her hardest to afford a plan, but I don't see it happening soon. She other things that take priorty (bills , feeding four other people) like most people do.
Personally, if universal healthcare is my only hope to get back on my feet I'll take it.
I'm tired of hurting. I'm tired of not being able to go out and fun. I'm tired of not being able work, as strange as that may sound. I'm tired of not being able to afford my own things. I'm tired of having to live with my parents and being a burden. Mostly I wish I could just have a job so I can help my mom who's drowning in her bills.
So I say bring on the healthcare. There are some people who don't qualify for aid from other places. And insurance is just a dream.
Yeah, I'm living with my parents as well so I know how you feel. I'm 39 years old and I can't take care of myself. At times I'm in a lot of agony. Also, my business is going down the tubes because of my health. But you know what? I'm still alive so it can't be all bad. If you start feeling sorry for yourself think about the children who have leukemia and have no hope.
Hey, i've never started a thead telling americans should have a better healthcare system, but if some one start a thread on a message board, i see nothing wrong with commenting on the subject.
And if the original poster picks and chooses data, i feel its my responciblity to point it out. That way you guys are better able to come to a decission.
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Yeah, I'm living with my parents as well so I know how you feel. I'm 39 years old and I can't take care of myself. At times I'm in a lot of agony. Also, my business is going down the tubes because of my health. But you know what? I'm still alive so it can't be all bad. If you start feeling sorry for yourself think about the children who have leukemia and have no hope.I'll make this quick, I'm out of element in these things.
I've been out of work and sick now for four years. I've been rejected by the hospital indugent fund, the county's indugent fund, state health care, ssi, and benifits from the human resource offices. Being I have no job I've had to move back with my parents. Not fun by the way. I also can't afford insurance, and even if I could the I wouldn't be able to use it for six to nine months. Due to it being a pre-existing condition.
My mom has been trying her hardest to afford a plan, but I don't see it happening soon. She other things that take priorty (bills , feeding four other people) like most people do.
Personally, if universal healthcare is my only hope to get back on my feet I'll take it.
I'm tired of hurting. I'm tired of not being able to go out and fun. I'm tired of not being able work, as strange as that may sound. I'm tired of not being able to afford my own things. I'm tired of having to live with my parents and being a burden. Mostly I wish I could just have a job so I can help my mom who's drowning in her bills.
So I say bring on the healthcare. There are some people who don't qualify for aid from other places. And insurance is just a dream.
I started feeling sorry a long time ago. Unfortunately I don't have a job or my own business. I have to sit back everyday and watch my mom pay bill by herself. When I should be trying to help, but can't. No one wants to hire a guy who hasn't worked in four years, and still doesn't know why he's ill. To everyone I'm a work risk. Yeah I'm alive too, but everyday I feel like a useless bum. Who's only living off his mother.
Well, actually, I'm pretty sure Heaven mandates doing the 'right thing'. The tricky bit comes in determining which of the many versions of the 'right thing' to do.EDIT: And to quote Churchill, "The Americans will always do the right thing, after exhausting all other options." We knew you'd come around eventually. ;-)Heaven forbid if we do the "right thing". :)
Not sure i trust heavens interpritation of the right thing...All that 1 Samuel 15:3 stuff gives me the creeps.
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Considering how many American Shows start with "Inspire by the Hit BBC program" these days, that might not be a good analogy.
2) I refer you to the last 20 or 30 years of the American government, television and population's attitude.
I refer you to the Churchill quote above. And considering how many American shows have dominated the screens of Britain for decades, we've got some serious catching up to do.
Considering how many American Shows start with "Inspire by the Hit BBC program" these days, that might not be a good analogy.
2) I refer you to the last 20 or 30 years of the American government, television and population's attitude.
True. Most of our best comedies have been British inspired. Benny Hill himself was one of the funniest comedians that have ever lived. Also, who doesn't like British scifi such as Dr. Who and Torchwood?
....such as Dr. Who and Torchwood?Who?
Ha ha ha ha ha...ya get it? ha ha ha ha....damn, I'm so funny.
Yeah, yeah, I get it. :)
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....such as Dr. Who and Torchwood?Who?
Ha ha ha ha ha...ya get it? ha ha ha ha....damn, I'm so funny.
Aren't they a band?
The EU's population is around 500 Million, and they all have some form of public healthcare. If we can afford it, so can the US, with its population of 300 Million. :)Uzzy, did you have to try and bring us back on topic? We were just starting to get along!
Who wants to get along? Arguing and fighting is a lot more fun. :)
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Who wants to get along? Arguing and fighting is a lot more fun. :)The EU's population is around 500 Million, and they all have some form of public healthcare. If we can afford it, so can the US, with its population of 300 Million. :)Uzzy, did you have to try and bring us back on topic? We were just starting to get along!
For you, maybe, but I'm a godless, pinko Commie European Librul Surrender Monkey. ;-)
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For you, maybe, but I'm a godless, pinko Commie European Librul Surrender Monkey. ;-)Who wants to get along? Arguing and fighting is a lot more fun. :)The EU's population is around 500 Million, and they all have some form of public healthcare. If we can afford it, so can the US, with its population of 300 Million. :)Uzzy, did you have to try and bring us back on topic? We were just starting to get along!
It True!!!.. I know..I met him... ;-)
For you, maybe, but I'm a godless, pinko Commie European Librul Surrender Monkey. ;-)
extends paw
Pleased to meet you. I am a religionless American Liburtarian gun-toting monkey. Always pleased to meet one of my pink-furred cousins from across the Pond.