Faith has a way heavier role in a world where a god's miracles are palpable and present in each Cleric, where a priest can offer you the Confession and have his god forgive your sins in the most palpable way as for you to be sure you can die that instant and go to your god's dwelling place... ok in both Golarion and DnD the Confession is actually a rare sacrament taking into acount the level of the Atonement spell, but you get the idea.
Now, the Gods&Magic book allows for priests not of the Cleric class, which means listening to someone who isn't an actual beacon of his god's warmth, nor a miracle worker.
-Someone who can't forgive your sins
-Someone who can't grant you communion with your deity
-Someone who can't tell his deity himself while baptizing a baby "This is your son/daughter, watch over him/her and take him/her with you when the time comes", nor who can borrow himself his deity's attention to certify a couple's union.
The Bless spell is more than just a +1 on attacks and saves, it's your deity itself embracing you and telling you it loves you just as the Atonement fills you momentarily with your deity's love while he/she whispers in your ear "It's alright, I forgive you", the kinds of reassurance that keep a Cleric's faithful coming back to church... and the kind of contact with your deity a non-Cleric can't grant you. Precisely, a sacrament is defined as "a Rite in which God is uniquely active."
So, how are sacraments handled regarding non-Cleric priests?
How about this Trait?
Priest
In spite of not belonging to your faith's elite (ie not having levels in the Cleric class), your church has invested you with the power and authority to officiate mass, enabling you to perform your deity's holy sacraments as you momentarily become a conduit for your deity's love. You have a +1 bonus on Diplomacy checks derived from the authority your title commands. In addition, while officiating mass, you can perform the following divine spells according to your Character Level:
lvl 1: Bless (at will), Bless Water 1/week.
lvl 3: Consecrate 1/week.
lvl 9: Atonement 1/month, Hallow 1/month.
Caster level is equal to half your Character level, the priest can't use any of these spells in combat. You're limited to those sacraments sanctioned by your deity (don't expect an Atonement from the goddess of vengeance). If you're already a Cleric, you can cast once per week a Bless at the time of the Eucharist, and all atendants will enjoy the benefits of the Bless for 24 hours as long as their alignment and late actions don't conflict with your doctrine.
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Unearthed Arcana (the original one, back in 1st edition) tried to come up with some Ceremony spells that reflected stuff like burial blessings or baptisms or whatever, but I was never a huge fan of their implementation.
I suspect that most of this sort of stuff would be better handled non-magically (as it is in the real-world). A 'blessing' over a childbirth might be simply some ritual preparations (clean white cloth, 'sanctifying' tools over open flame, etc.) that are more bonuses to any attendent Heal check for the delivery than any sort of arcane significance. (Just as 'kosher' food rules are often sensible precautions meant to decrease the risks of food-borne illnesses.) In this case, I'd allow a priest with Knowledge (religion) to get a Synergy bonus to a Heal check to deliver a newborn or whatever, but otherwise, and in most cases, no mechanical effects are needed. 'Confession' isn't done to get some mechanical benefit, but to unburden the soul. A funeral prayer isn't meant to stop the person from coming back as a vampire, it's to console the survivors.
Where actual spells would come into play, even something as simple as a Guidance spell could be sufficient to cover some minor actions (again, blessing a Heal check, or giving someone a +1 to that save vs. poison or disease they are about to have to make, which would stack with the +1 from Resistance, if the Cleric is using both). Uses of Knowledge (religion) might also lend themselves to synergy bonuses (or just circumstance bonuses) to other checks relevant to the 'job' of being a priest, such as Diplomacy (to help someone resolve a thorny emotional quandary or 'get over something') or Sense Motive (to ferret out of people the things they need to talk about) or Perform - Oratory (to give a moving and effective sermon). Most of the standard real-world priest functions, IMO, would be better relegated to effective use of Skills, and not necessarily conflating a 'blessing' with the Bless spell.
Adding long term blessings could be done through the use of a specific spell, second level perhaps, called Benediction, which lasts all day normally, but is cancelled on the first failed save vs. fear.
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I would love to see some sort of system whereby layman worshippers received a tangible, magical boon for their faithfulness. It seems odd that the gods powers are so dramatically evident in their clergy, but the average churchgoer is still scraping to have their prayers heard. Just some small token of godly attention and affection would be nice.
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Actually I would find this an excellent opportunity to create a nice new class, called the Priest.
A purely spontaneous divine caster, similar to the Sorcerer. An excellent variant is found in Unearthed Arcana (the 3.5 version).
assuming you don't go with a new Priest class...
Something else to consider, is that just because a character may be a Priest and not a Cleric does not mean s/he lacks a connection to the divine. A Priest can be an Adept, for example. And who is to say that the God cannot have created a special bond with a Commoner who is elevated in the church hierarchy to a Priest.
Also, it is not necessarily true that the Gods forgive sins, and embrace you in their warmth and bosoms. Some Gods may use Bless to fill you with rage, or hatred, rather than feel good inner fluff. Also, some Gods may use Atonement to "Work Off" that sin, and may even allow Attonement reluctantly.
For some Gods, the sin in question may have been a kind deed...
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I would love to see some sort of system whereby layman worshippers received a tangible, magical boon for their faithfulness. It seems odd that the gods powers are so dramatically evident in their clergy, but the average churchgoer is still scraping to have their prayers heard. Just some small token of godly attention and affection would be nice.
Maybe the Gods do not hear the prayers of the common man. Perhaps they only hear the prayers of those they have blessed as Clerics, Paladins or Priests...
Just a thought...
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Something else to consider, is that just because a character may be a Priest and not a Cleric does not mean s/he lacks a connection to the divine. A Priest can be an Adept, for example. And who is to say that the God cannot have created a special bond with a Commoner who is elevated in the church hierarchy to a Priest.
That would be my take, there could be a Priest NPC class that get some low level divine spells, just enough for liturgical purposes, as a matter of fact... i like it a lot and would fit an adventure I'm working on where players goes from commoners to paragons.
It could very well be an adept with divine spells, what would you suggest.
P.S.
For some strange reason i had the impression that Adepts, where Arcane casters....maybe due to the familiar...
well i think I'll have to make both....
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P.S. For some strange reason i had the impression that Adepts, where Arcane casters....maybe due to the familiar...
well i think I'll have to make both....
Temple Quarter, from The Game Mechanics, introduces the idea of both Divine and Arcane Adepts. (Eberron also has slightly more Divine Adepts, with access to one Domain.)
I use both Arcane and Divine Adepts, with slightly different spell-lists and the Arcane Adept getting the Familiar at 2nd level and the Divine Adept getting a single Domain at 2nd level.
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P.S. For some strange reason i had the impression that Adepts, where Arcane casters....maybe due to the familiar...
well i think I'll have to make both....
Temple Quarter, from The Game Mechanics, introduces the idea of both Divine and Arcane Adepts. (Eberron also has slightly more Divine Adepts, with access to one Domain.)
I use both Arcane and Divine Adepts, with slightly different spell-lists and the Arcane Adept getting the Familiar at 2nd level and the Divine Adept getting a single Domain at 2nd level.
That looks good, but wouldn't the current domains powers be too much for an adept??
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That looks good, but wouldn't the current domains powers be too much for an adept??P.S. For some strange reason i had the impression that Adepts, where Arcane casters....maybe due to the familiar...
well i think I'll have to make both....
Temple Quarter, from The Game Mechanics, introduces the idea of both Divine and Arcane Adepts. (Eberron also has slightly more Divine Adepts, with access to one Domain.)
I use both Arcane and Divine Adepts, with slightly different spell-lists and the Arcane Adept getting the Familiar at 2nd level and the Divine Adept getting a single Domain at 2nd level.
Probably so. So I would use the Old Fashioned Domain rules...
(you guys like that little jab at old fashioned?- couldn't resist)
You can also take the generic PC class Spellcaster from Unearthed Arcana and modify it for a Priest class. No turn undead abilities. Use the old domain spells and abilities. Spontaneous caster. Maybe if I get a chance tonight I will write one up.
Probably not... I should go out bar hopping and beat up some elves... yeah that sounds more fun. :) Oh, wait I forgot you don't find elves in bars... maybe a local garden and find them molesting the trees.
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I use both Arcane and Divine Adepts, with slightly different spell-lists and the Arcane Adept getting the Familiar at 2nd level and the Divine Adept getting a single Domain at 2nd level.That looks good, but wouldn't the current domains powers be too much for an adept??
Oh yeah, this was pre-Pathfinder. I'd definitely leave them with the 'old' Domain powers.
-Someone who can't forgive your sins
-Someone who can't grant you communion with your deity
-Someone who can't tell his deity himself while baptizing a baby "This is your son/daughter, watch over him/her and take him/her with you when the time comes", nor who can borrow himself his deity's attention to certify a couple's union.
Who says a non-cleric priest cannot forgive your sins? Or grant you communion? Or can bless you in the name of the deity?
You don't need the atonement spell to have your sins forgiven, at least not if you're a peasant who ogled his neighbour's daughter or something. Atonement's for the heavy stuff, like a divine spellcaster violating his codex, or someone having an alignment change.
For the light stuff, you might not even need a priest - pray to your god directly for forgiveness. Not every deity will place as much importance on people visiting the church for every deific need as the catholic church does.
Remember that those deities have a very real and obvious impact in the world. Their churches don't need to bind people to them the way real-world churches, who can't rely on regular miracles to make their presence known, do.
Same with communion. Unless you actually want the effects of the commune spell - the deity or his/her agents answering your questions in a booming voice - a lay worshipper without divine power will suffice.
Same with baptising. Or any other rites. Just because the guy cannot cast divine spells doesn't mean he can't do the rites. In the end, it's the deities who decide who to take into their fold, and the people who decide which god to follow. Some gods will probably insist in rituals for everything (especially lawful ones), with someone official present, and some may even insist on a divine spellcaster, but that's not strictly necessary.
the kinds of reassurance that keep a Cleric's faithful coming back to church...
Now I know why I'm not going to church: I never had God actually saying anything to me I could physically hear. There might have been a feeling that He wants this or that or approves of my thoghts or actions, but I cannot know whether those were actual divine interactions or just my subconscious, and there definetly was never any overt supernatural effects.
And you know what? I have the creeping suspicion that this is how it's like for most. Those who say differently are, I'd suspect, mostly either delusional or lying.
In the end, if you want real world concepts in D&D, you don't need a divine spellcaster. Everyone who knows the words can say the words, and if the deity doesn't like that, he/she will do something about it.
But if you want supernatural powers, you need one of the guys who has dedicated his life to this path. You need a divine spellcaster. Everyone else lacks the devotion to channel divine power.
The strength of one's divine magic abilities isn't depandant on the deity, but on one's self. Otherwise, a cleric of Desna (a powerful goddess) would be inherently better than a cleric of the minor god Ghlaunder. But that's not the case.
In the end: If you want actual supernatual effects, devote yourself. Become a cleric. Going to church once a week and demaning divine magic just doesn't work.
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Probably so. So I would use the Old Fashioned Domain rules...
That might work. but still not sure about Spontaneous casting. I was also considering Chanel Energy less times a day or with a lower damage
I'd take away the Channel Energy thing also. Let that be a Cleric thing.
That's why I'd let them cast spontaneous like a Sorcerer. Also get the short spell list. The big advantage they do get is to use the Domain Power and an extra Domain Spell, per the OLD 3.5 Domain rules.
I might also let them acquire an outsider minion or something. A Celestial skunk or something like that (Smells like roses!). :) Maybe a Guardian Angel. An invisible angel looking out for their safety.
Depends upon if you want it to be a full fledged PC class or an NPC class.
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I'd take away the Channel Energy thing also. Let that be a Cleric thing.
The only thing I'd give them is a single Domain (at 2nd level insted of 1st), and tweak out their spell list to be more divine specific (and the Arcane Adepts spell-list to be more arcane).
Adepts are already a vastly better NPC class choice than the Warrior or Commoner anyway.
...ummmm tree molesters... (that gave me an idea for an Elf/Gnome affected by Insanity)
Probably not... I should go out bar hopping and beat up some elves... yeah that sounds more fun. :) Oh, wait I forgot you don't find elves in bars... maybe a local garden and find them molesting the trees.
Hey! Stop that!
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Hey! Stop that!...ummmm tree molesters... (that gave me an idea for an Elf/Gnome affected by Insanity)
Probably not... I should go out bar hopping and beat up some elves... yeah that sounds more fun. :) Oh, wait I forgot you don't find elves in bars... maybe a local garden and find them molesting the trees.
lol
oh man that was good!
I the last game I played in, we had a dwarven druid. He would not touch nor have anything to do with any metal object. He refused to drink anything but purified water. He preferred cute furry animals to bar maids. HE WAS CLEAN SHAVEN!
We decided he was an elf that had been shape changed as a child... the only way to explain it.
Hey! Stop that!...ummmm tree molesters... (that gave me an idea for an Elf/Gnome affected by Insanity)
Probably not... I should go out bar hopping and beat up some elves... yeah that sounds more fun. :) Oh, wait I forgot you don't find elves in bars... maybe a local garden and find them molesting the trees.lol
oh man that was good!
I the last game I played in, we had a dwarven druid. He would not touch nor have anything to do with any metal object. He refused to drink anything but purified water. He preferred cute furry animals to bar maids. HE WAS CLEAN SHAVEN!
We decided he was an elf that had been shape changed as a child... the only way to explain it.
If he liked furry barmaids he would have been a normal dwarf!
We decided he was an elf that had been shape changed as a child... the only way to explain it.
No, you just discovered why dwarves cling to tradition like that. Because what you describe is just what happens to a dwarf if he's cured of traditionalism. They all want to be like what they think elves are like.
They live in secluded caves where no non-dwarf may visit because at 5pm, they all put down their hammers, start hearing disco music, put on dresses and dye their beards pink!
This post is dedicated to the Dwarves of Golarion! Keep Reaching For That Rainbow! ;-P
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We decided he was an elf that had been shape changed as a child... the only way to explain it.No, you just discovered why dwarves cling to tradition like that. Because what you describe is just what happens to a dwarf if he's cured of traditionalism. They all want to be like what they think elves are like.
They live in secluded caves where no non-dwarf may visit because at 5pm, they all put down their hammers, start hearing disco music, put on dresses and dye their beards pink!
This post is dedicated to the Dwarves of Golarion! Keep Reaching For That Rainbow! ;-P
lol
I'll find that rainbow at the bottom of my flagon!
I'll find that rainbow at the bottom of my flagon!
At least dwarves are true to form, if they drink prosecco out of flagons. :D
Who says a non-cleric priest cannot forgive your sins? Or grant you communion? Or can bless you in the name of the deity?
I agree.
{You don't need the atonement spell to have your sins forgiven, at least not if you're a peasant who ogled his neighbour's daughter or something. Atonement's for the heavy stuff, like a divine spellcaster violating his codex, or someone having an alignment change.}
I agree.
{For the light stuff, you might not even need a priest - pray to your god directly for forgiveness. Not every deity will place as much importance on people visiting the church for every deific need as the catholic church does. }
I agree.
{Remember that those deities have a very real and obvious impact in the world. Their churches don't need to bind people to them the way real-world churches, who can't rely on regular miracles to make their presence known, do.}
I agree.
{Same with communion. Unless you actually want the effects of the commune spell - the deity or his/her agents answering your questions in a booming voice - a lay worshipper without divine power will suffice.}
I agree.
{Same with baptising. Or any other rites. Just because the guy cannot cast divine spells doesn't mean he can't do the rites. In the end, it's the deities who decide who to take into their fold, and the people who decide which god to follow. Some gods will probably insist in rituals for everything (especially lawful ones), with someone official present, and some may even insist on a divine spellcaster, but that's not strictly necessary.}
I agree.
When i write, and specifically in the case of Gods and Magic, the term "priest" means "an official of a church, vested with some authority by the church." In some churches, the only priests are clerics. In other churches, a priest might be any spellcaster. In others, even non-spellcasters can be priests.
A non-spellcaster can hear your confession.
Or administer sacraments.
Or give blessing.
Or grant forgiveness.
Or sanctify a marriage.
Or baptize someone.
And so on. You don't need magic for any of those things. You just need faith ... the faith of the priest, and the faith of the believer.
And on a tangent, you might want to look at my Donations and Intervention article for a way for characters to get some game-mechanics benefit by making donations to a church.
Atonement's for the heavy stuff, like a divine spellcaster violating his codex, or someone having an alignment change.
What's worse -- violating a codex, or molesting a tree?
Won't someone please think of the trees (and paper products)? ;-)
Atonement's for the heavy stuff, like a divine spellcaster violating his codex, or someone having an alignment change.What's worse -- violating a codex, or molesting a tree?
Won't someone please think of the trees (and paper products)? ;-)
Yes! Trees need love too!
Although not strictly necessary, there is room for an NPC class that is to the Cleric as the Warrior is to the Fighter. The Adept doesn't <i>quite</i> fit, with the given spell selection, class skills, and familiar, but the BAB, saves, and spell progression fit well enough. Tweak the spell list, replace the 2nd level familiar with level/2 cleric channeling, and you've got a city-and-town Curate.
In that set-up, Clerics are the itinerant strong right arms of the faith who crusade on missions for their gods; the spell-less priests/ministers of the faith see to everybody's day-to-day religious/spiritual needs; the Curate is the resident provider of divine miracles in civilized lands; and the Adept is the shaman in the tribal lands or the local healer/witch in the remote village.
(Religions that have druids instead of clerics have no curates but would still have adepts; religions that have druids in addition to clerics would tend to have more adepts and fewer curates.)
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Although not strictly necessary, there is room for an NPC class that is to the Cleric as the Warrior is to the Fighter. The Adept doesn't <i>quite</i> fit, with the given spell selection, class skills, and familiar, but the BAB, saves, and spell progression fit well enough. Tweak the spell list, replace the 2nd level familiar with level/2 cleric channeling, and you've got a city-and-town Curate.
The Eberron Campaign Setting and Temple Quarter (from the Game Mechanics) offer different variations on this idea.
In the ECS, all Adepts get to just add one Domain. Quick n' dirty.
In Temple Quarter (IIRC), Adepts are divided into Arcane Adepts (called Apprentices or perhaps Journeymen?) and Divine Adepts (called Acolytes). The Arcane Adepts get the Familiar at 2nd level and a spell list that is tweaked to not include divine spells like Cure Wounds and are all cast as Arcane spells. The Divine Adept gets a single Domain at 2nd level instead of the Familiar, and a tweaked spell list that has less 'lightning bolt' style arcane spells and a few more divine spells to replace them.
I use the second option in my own games, to create 'NPC mages' and 'NPC priests' that are not full strength Wizards or Clerics.
I agree.
I agree.
I agree.
I agree.
I agree.
I agree.
I really like the way this man thinks! Paizo, you should hire him to write all your articles and books related to faith in Pathfinder!
Wait a minute.... :)
What's worse -- violating a codex, or molesting a tree?Won't someone please think of the trees (and paper products)? ;-)
Great. How nice of you to bring this up. Now I can't touch paper without washing my hands afterwards. Ew ew ew!
The whole concept of "mass" and "sacraments" as expressed in Roman Catholic and Orthodox traditions stem from 4th century neo-Platonism and should be foreign to religions that stem from entirely different cultural/philosophical backgrounds. If Hindus were thinking up "priestly" characteristics such ideas would probably never occur to them.
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Said a lot of cool things I agree with.
Then there is also the Contemplative Prestige Class.
Members of the Contemplative PrC – those who in my own campaign are counted amongst the most holy members of the 'Good' religions – do not tend to come from the Cleric or Paladin classes. Because the *only* prerequisite of the Contemplative is ‘Knowledge (Religion): 13 Ranks,’ it actually makes sense to have the sedentary, meditative ‘Expert’ types grow into this role, or even the third born scions of some 'Aristocrats'.
Think Monks without the wire Fu or Clerics without the flame strike but still very much integral to the churches they belong to.