I just downloaded Pathfinder 15, and found in the section all about the Drow of Golarion, a sidebar which answered the question "Are there any Good Drow?" with an emphatic and unconditional 'No.'
Now, I understand the sentiments behind it. Lots of people have had bad experiences with Drizz't clones, and fear that no one thinks of the drow as villains anymore, just as 'Chaotic Good rebels against their evil society.' I'd submit, though, that this is a problem with the roleplayers and their DMs rather than with the existence of Good drow. After all, for the rebel concept to work, there needs to be an evil society for the Good drow to flee from and fight against--and any DM worth his salt would take that opportunity to send drow against the party, and showcase the dark elves in all their vicious glory.
I'd also note that no one feels the need to make similar arguments against good goblins, or kobolds, or any of the myriad other monstrous races that are also popular with players. There is no such sidebar about the goblins in Burnt Offerings, or the ogres and their kin in The Hook Mountain Massacre. Paizo let us judge by the facts of the monstrous society that a Good-aligned goblin, ogre, or ogrekin would be a rare and unlikely individual, and left us to decide how we would handle a player who wanted to play such a creature.
To simply say that a sapient race--one without the inherent attachment to evil of rakshashas, vampires, sinspawns, demons, etc.--is universally, completely, irrevocably evil strikes me as silly, to say the least. I'm certainly not arguing for good aligned drow to show up in Second Darkness--the drow are undoubtedly a villainous race on the whole, and as the Big Bads of this campaign, that's as it should be. But to dismiss the possibility of good drow out of hand is, I think, a poor decision.
Hiding this with a spoiler tag, as it relates to Hook Mountain Massacre:
Hook Mountain Massacre rightly disturbed him, particularly when I let him know that none of the ogrekin the party had come across were redeemeable. He understands more, both in and out of character, why people in the world hate ogrekin.
I noted that sidebar as well, but took it as "we are distancing ourself from the Driz'zt model of drow" rather than a limitation to my ability to play or DM drow PCs.
To me, the origins of the drow in Golarion preclude the existence of "good Drow" in a way that has no parallels in other campaign settings. They are drow *because* they are evil, and surface elves who harbor hatred in their hearts actively *become* drow. (And don't think I'm not hoping one of my players who likes to play so-called "neutral" characters who then start killing innocent bystanders right and left doesn't choose to play an elf in this campaign.)
Which raises the question: If a Drizzt-style drow were to come into being on Golarion, who purposely chose to act with compassion and justice, would a reverse-transformation ensue? Seems only fair....
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Which raises the question: If a Drizzt-style drow were to come into being on Golarion, who purposely chose to act with compassion and justice, would a reverse-transformation ensue? Seems only fair....
If i remember correctly, one of the paizo crew, James i believe, expressed that this was not the case.
To simply say that a sapient race--one without the inherent attachment to evil of rakshashas, vampires, sinspawns, demons, etc.--is universally, completely, irrevocably evil strikes me as silly, to say the least.
Well then I guess it's a good thing that:
"In the end, it was savagery and demonic bargains that steeled them against the darkness, and bitterness and dreams of revenge against
their cowardly brethren that drove them to survive. Over the centuries, pain and hated and [i]dark magic erased all that made these orphans elves[/b], and replaced it with a new cruelty known as the drow."
- and -
"As a result, women came to control more and more of drow social life, and it was they who came to dominate the great nobles houses and bargained away their families' services to the princes of the Abyss."
Seems to me that you answered your own question. The whole creation story of the drow is one of a subset of elves turned and twisted by demons. They have much deeper ties to otherworld powers than orcs, goblins or even Ogres. ;)
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I think it's a good idea to make that statement. If allowed to get a toehold, good drow can slowly seep into a campaign setting and throw off the flavor. It helps set expectations for those who may believe that drow can be like they are in the FR. If a particular DM wants to deviate from that, that's their choice, but I can see wanting to establish a strong baseline regarding what a drow is (or isn't).
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Yup, Golarion drow aren't just evil because of upbringing, society, environment, diet or whatever else that makes Orcs go aaargh and Goblins go squeee. They are evil because they made a choice that taints their blood so strongly, that they are beyond redemption. Or that's how I see it... it runs in the blood, basically.
Ah, but members of the race making demonic bargains is not the same as a demon's own connection to evil. A demon literally is evil, everything abhorrent about the universe given flesh. If it ceased to be evil, it would cease to be. If a drow ceased to be evil, it would merely risk the intense displeasure of its family and its family's demonic patrons. By those very words, it is primarily the Matrons of the House who make the deals with the demons. There are doubtlessly a number of grunts, particularly males, who have never personally treated with demons. Is it so inconceivable that one of them could flee drow society, perhaps first out of fear or some sense of self-preservation, and eventually learn traits of kindness and compassion?
If i remember correctly, one of the paizo crew, James i believe, expressed that this was not the case.
** spoiler omitted **
Hm, I think I'd like some clarification on this. Looking at Shadow in the Sky,
From a flavor standpoint, I really like the concept of a slightly paranoid elven society, constantly on guard against an ally suddenly turning into an enemy, as well as tightly guarded and repressed individuals, afraid of what they themselves might become if they let themselves slip out of discipline for only a moment. Making a pact with a demon lord is a lot more clear demarcation line than I'd prefer, personally. If that's what it takes, people ought to be fairly aware of what they're getting themselves into. Not to mention that it allows my troublesome PC to slit commoners' throats in their sleep without worrying about the repercussions.
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Hm, I think I'd like some clarification on this. Looking at Shadow in the Sky,** spoiler omitted **If i remember correctly, one of the paizo crew, James i believe, expressed that this was not the case.
** spoiler omitted **
Wish i could look it up myself, but i'm at work at the moment. I'll definitely look into it afterward though.
Ah, but members of the race making demonic bargains is not the same as a demon's own connection to evil. A demon literally is evil, everything abhorrent about the universe given flesh. If it ceased to be evil, it would cease to be. If a drow ceased to be evil, it would merely risk the intense displeasure of its family and its family's demonic patrons. By those very words, it is primarily the Matrons of the House who make the deals with the demons. There are doubtlessly a number of grunts, particularly males, who have never personally treated with demons. Is it so inconceivable that one of them could flee drow society, perhaps first out of fear or some sense of self-preservation, and eventually learn traits of kindness and compassion?
Revan,
I can see how you could run things this way, you could certainly run drow in your campaign differently from the way they are in the setting. Being a Drow in Golarian is like having a demonic infection that warps and twists your physical and mental being. The physical transformation is the symptom of the infection. To say there might be neutral or good Drow is like saying a woman is only partly pregnant. Drow are born carrying this infection and carry it throughout their life.
It might be possible for a Drow to be cured of being a Drow but the cure would make an elf and likely remove the physical and magical aspects of being a Drow also.
Actually I brought this up and started a thread on Elve's transforming and I think James chimed in on the subject, though my link-fu is basically non-existant, it is here in the SD forum....
*edit* it is here: http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/adventurePa th/secondDarkness/drowCreationQuestionsSpoilers
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Actually I brought this up and started a thread on Elve's transforming and I think James chimed in on the subject, though my link-fu is basically non-existant, it is here in the SD forum....
*edit* it is here
LINKED
Creative Director
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One of the huge pieces of feedback we got from these boards when we announced a drow-themed adventure path was a not-too-surprising assumption that we'd suddenly have all sorts of good drow antiheroes in Golarion. So for much of Second Darkness, we've been trying to combat that perception. We don't WANT good drow NPCs in Golarion, and that's what we're talking about when we say there are no good drow.
At least, there aren't any yet.
If there IS a good drow character, that'd be something relatively unheard of in Golarion. To this date, the drow have been pretty good at ensuring newborn drow are raised in societies to be evil. There may be a good aligned drow somewhere, but that drow has the unfortunate double-edged-sword situation where he/she can't live among her people, and can't live among her people's enemies. That type of situation is one of the main reasons that makes Driz'zt such a popular character; despite those difficulties, he moves on to become a hero.
If a character like that were to rise in Golarion, I'd expect it to be an equally unique/rare situation. Something that would be the focus of an entire adventure path or novel. or even better... a PC. In fact, that would be my preference; for the first good drow to appear in Golarion to be PCs.
But for Second Darkness, we wanted to reset the whole "good drow" thing back to the baseline, and in the light of so much opposition to drow being good, we came down pretty hard on squashing the concept. Doesn't mean it can't happen, but it does mean that it won't happen among the NPCs of Second Darkness.
As for a drow becoming good... since it's never happened in Golarion as far as anyone knows yet, who knows if that means the drow would change abilities again and become a standard elf? My gut feeling is that they should not, because if someone wants to play a good drow, they should be able to. Forcing good drow to turn into normal elves defeats the purpose of playing a good drow in the first place.
The actual process and catalysts for the transformation are not going to be spelled out. We talk a little bit about the process in Pathfinder #17, but basically it's like this: Elves turn into Drow only when the adventure's story demands it for dramatic reasons. And those elves have to be VERY wicked, they have to be demon worshipers, and they have to be unrepentant about their evil. Even then, the change isn't guaranteed.
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Creative Director
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And it bears repeating.
If you want good drow in your campaign, go for it. We don't want good drow NPCs in Golarion at this point, so that's why we're being pretty strict about it. And Second Darkness doesn't work well with drow PCs anyway.
I suspect that eventually we WILL have a good drow NPC in Pathfinder. I'm a big fan of that kind of character, to be honest; two of my most recent characters have been good drow, in fact. But we want to make sure the world knows that drow in Golarion are evil and mostly villians before that, and we want to distance ourselves from the perception that so many drow are good-aligned scimitar-wielding antiheros as well. Driz'zt is easily the most popular drow, and he's the one most folk think of when you mention drow, for good or ill. Golarion is not the Forgotten Realms, though, and we don't have a Driz'zt in our world.
At least, not yet.
Thanks for the link! Here's the pertinent quote:
We haven't detailed how and when and why the elf to drow change occurs, apart from saying it happens to only the most wicked of elves. It also probably requires some sort of willing "sell your soul to the Abyss or a demon" level of thing as well. It's a RARE event; it's not something that would or should happen often, otherwise it would be a much more well-known condition. I'd guess that it happens maybe once every few centuries, in fact.
<snip>
I suspect that we'll have a bit more to say about it in Pathfinder #17, though, when another such event may or may not be set to occur...
I was going to say that the "once every few centuries" thing didn't jibe well with Shadow in the Sky's assertion that "spontanous transformation is increasing," until I realized that from an elven point of view, going from once every few centuries to a few every one century is like an epidemic! :)
Guess I'll have to be patient and wait for Pathfinder 17, but I might still run my campaign with a McCarthyite, "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" paranoia among the elves. I have to admit I've never really "gotten" elves for the most part (dang hippies!), so anytime I think I've got a smidgen of understanding their perspective, I run with it.
Even so:** spoiler omitted **
The interesting thing about that it that
Drow are explicitly stated to never enslave other drow. Kill, maim, etc. sure, but no enslavement.
Later in the same article, it then says that if a good drow did somehow occur, enslavement is one of the poor bastard's possible fates.
I guess my real quibble was that you were already doing such a good job of establishing how monstrous drow culture was--just as you did with ogre/kin and goblins--that the sidebar seemed an unnecessary addendum that perhaps came down too strictly. Glad to hear there's still a remote possibility of a Golarion rebel somewhere down the line. Never played one myself, but I just tend to think the backlash against good drow is kind of absurd, considering how many people love to play tieflings, goblins, kobolds, ogres, orcs, and so forth. Or, for that matter, a preponderance of evil aasimars...;)
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Creative Director
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The interesting thing about that it that ...
Drow are tricksy. They say they do one thing, and then they do something else.
More technically... this is why we generally try to avoid publishing absolutes. Many authors are fond of statements like, "All lizardfolk hate singing," or "No dragon is more cruel than Blackwinter," and so on. All that does is set up editor traps and continuity traps.
It would have been better to say that "Drow rarely enslave their own" of course.
That said, in drow society, enslavement of a non-drow race and enslavement of a drow ARE looked as different things entirely. Enslaving a non-drow is simple slavery; it's what non-drow races were made for, and it's just the way it is. Enslaving a drow is meant to be one of the most demeaning forms of punishment a drow can inflict. I suspect that non-drow slaves are generally treated relatively well, since a broken or sickly slave is not too useful. But drow slaves in drow society? They're probably regularly beaten and humiliated and worked to death. It's easier to be a non-drow slave in a drow society, in other words. Easier and safer.
It would have been better to say that "Drow rarely enslave their own" of course.
I took it to mean that a good 'drow' is not considered a 'drow' at all by normal drow elves. That they automatically lose the protected status that being a drow (of any station) affords one in drow society.
Basically, if a drow were to be selfless and nice to people without ulterior motive, a lynch mob would show up, strip that person of all civi rights, and treat him/her just like all the other inferior species.
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And it bears repeating.
If you want good drow in your campaign, go for it. We don't want good drow NPCs in Golarion at this point, so that's why we're being pretty strict about it. And Second Darkness doesn't work well with drow PCs anyway.
I suspect that eventually we WILL have a good drow NPC in Pathfinder. I'm a big fan of that kind of character, to be honest; two of my most recent characters have been good drow, in fact. But we want to make sure the world knows that drow in Golarion are evil and mostly villians before that, and we want to distance ourselves from the perception that so many drow are good-aligned scimitar-wielding antiheros as well. Driz'zt is easily the most popular drow, and he's the one most folk think of when you mention drow, for good or ill. Golarion is not the Forgotten Realms, though, and we don't have a Driz'zt in our world.
At least, not yet.
I think Drizzt became so popular originally because of the very novelty of him. A type of being that previously had pretty much only been thought of as a horrible monster that was slain without a second thought, suddenly exhibiting very human qualities was fairly novel at the time. Because of Drizzt, I became more interested in drow as a whole. My favorite drow characters from the FR setting and fiction are the evil ones: Gromph Baenre, Pharaun Mizzrym, Matron Baenre, Danifae Yauntyrr, Jarlaxle, etc. Getting into the heads of these characters is fun for me because although they are clearly evil, they are not just mindless raving monsters. They have motives and real thoughts and feelings, even if they are dark and twisted.
And it bears repeating.
If you want good drow in your campaign, go for it. We don't want good drow NPCs in Golarion at this point, so that's why we're being pretty strict about it. And Second Darkness doesn't work well with drow PCs anyway.
I disagree. No good drow in any game anywhere ever, ever. If you make a good drow and run it in Golarion I will personally send Sutter to your house to stare at you sternly. You have all been warned.
I took it to mean that a good 'drow' is not considered a 'drow' at all by normal drow elves. That they automatically lose the protected status that being a drow (of any station) affords one in drow society.
This is absolutely right. Just as one faces punishment for acting evil in a good society, the reverse holds true--and probably to an even more severe extent. While in most surface lands some kid who decides to dissect his puppy for fun is going to probably face societal correction and public shunning, a drow who decides to coddle his slaves and protect his inferiors is not going to last long. Either his family is going to punish him, disown him, or see that an "accident" happens to him to avoid the family's embarrassment--or he might just get shived by someone he was thoughtful enough to help. Running away also doesn't help, because where are you going to go? The drow slums? Death. The shunned surface world? Faster death. The Darklands? Fastest death. So the options are very, very limited.
So, is a good drow impossible? No, nothing's impossible in a world with magic and flying lizards. But they're about as common as compulsive murderers in the real world: unlikely, reverse adjusted to their society, unfavorable, likely feared, and destined to meet an unhappy end.
FWS is my new hero.
Mine too.
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Creative Director
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I think Drizzt became so popular originally because of the very novelty of him. A type of being that previously had pretty much only been thought of as a horrible monster that was slain without a second thought, suddenly exhibiting very human qualities was fairly novel at the time. Because of Drizzt, I became more interested in drow as a whole. My favorite drow characters from the FR setting and fiction are the evil ones: Gromph Baenre, Pharaun Mizzrym, Matron Baenre, Danifae Yauntyrr, Jarlaxle, etc. Getting into the heads of these characters is fun for me because although they are clearly evil, they are not just mindless raving monsters. They have motives and real thoughts and feelings, even if they are dark and twisted.
That was certainly part of it. Another part is that Salvatore's writing is really engaging and fun, of course! And you're right; the vast majority of the drow in Salvatore's writing ARE evil. But it's Driz'zt that folk latch onto. And more to the point, the popularity of Driz'zt-like player characters have been a big part of the backlash against drow. It's kind of unfair to the drow, I think.
I disagree. No good drow in any game anywhere ever, ever. If you make a good drow and run it in Golarion I will personally send Sutter to your house to stare at you sternly. You have all been warned.
I have three drow in my games, but they keep acting evil, no matter how much I encourage them to be good. It's getting to the point where the party's lawful good cleric (my wife's character: She's ALWAYS Lawful Good) might just let them bleed out the next time a monster guts them.
They had a firm talking to after the "making deals with pit fiends" incident.
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Yup, Golarion drow aren't just evil because of upbringing, society, environment, diet or whatever else that makes Orcs go aaargh and Goblins go squeee. They are evil because they made a choice that taints their blood so strongly, that they are beyond redemption. Or that's how I see it... it runs in the blood, basically.
To say that the demonic taint in your blood makes you beyond redemption would mean that there could never be a good tiefling character either, or that, if using Pathfinder, that all sorcerers with Abyssal or Infernal bloodlines have to be evil as well. The first drow did make the choice to consprt with the demonic powers, but since then they have become a race that breeds true rather than being born a normal elf and undergoing the transformation later. I think that there is room for the ocassional good drow, but they should be rare and an outcast among their own people and the surface dwellers. The player should also have a real good reason why they did not under go the "cure" for their condition that JB mentioned earlier.
I'm everyone's hero. It goes without saying.
Any man with a pony avatar that pretty gets my respect.
But it's Driz'zt that folk latch onto. And more to the point, the popularity of Driz'zt-like player characters have been a big part of the backlash against drow. It's kind of unfair to the drow, I think.
I agree. But it's not limited to drow-hate. A lot of the hate against anything in RPGs is base don skewed perspectives and the actions of a few people (both real-world people and in-game people):
One author does a bad job describing this character or that race, and suddenly a lot of people think that this is the norm rather than the exception and dislike it.
Even the idea of non-evil drow isn't that bad, if done right, but after countless players allegedly played carbon copies of Drizzt, every drow that wasn't a sadistic, mass-murdering psychopath was called a Drizzt-clone, and the angst and emo jokes were rolled out.
This is what Helms of Opposite Alignment exist for. After all, that's what my group is planning to do to Virmanda Arkona (Hey, we're gonna need a new ruler in Korvosa after the Queen is gone and she's the only noble we're on speaking terms with)
In Golarion, we already have a charmed person working to undo the charm person spell. What is there to keep an alignment changed noble from seeking to undo the alignment change? Your plan, like all player plans, has the potential to fail in a spectacular manner.
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This is what Helms of Opposite Alignment exist for. After all, that's what my group is planning to do to Virmanda Arkona (Hey, we're gonna need a new ruler in Korvosa after the Queen is gone and she's the only noble we're on speaking terms with)In Golarion, we already have a charmed person working to undo the charm person spell. What is there to keep an alignment changed noble from seeking to undo the alignment change? Your plan, like all player plans, has the potential to fail in a spectacular manner.
Only a wish or a miracle can restore former alignment, and the affected individual does not make any attempt to return to the former alignment. (In fact, he views the prospect with horror and avoids it in any way possible.) If a character of a class with an alignment requirement is affected, an atonement spell is needed as well if the curse is to be obliterated. When a helm of opposite alignment has functioned once, it loses its magical properties.
Wish/Miracle is pretty much out of range of most if not all peoples who would have an interest in 'fixing' Virmanda (provided they found out what actually caused it rather than believing she just 'strayed down the wrong path').
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I'd also note that no one feels the need to make similar arguments against good goblins, or kobolds, or any of the myriad other monstrous races that are also popular with players. There is no such sidebar about the goblins in Burnt Offerings, or the ogres and their kin in The Hook Mountain Massacre. Paizo let us judge by the facts of the monstrous society that a Good-aligned goblin, ogre, or ogrekin would be a rare and unlikely individual, and left us to decide how we would handle a player who wanted to play such a creature.
To simply say that a sapient race--one without the inherent attachment to evil of rakshashas, vampires, sinspawns, demons, etc.--is universally, completely, irrevocably evil strikes me as silly, to say the least. I'm certainly not arguing for good aligned drow to show up in Second Darkness--the drow are undoubtedly a villainous race on the whole, and as the Big Bads of this campaign, that's as it should be. But to dismiss the possibility of good drow out of hand is, I think, a poor decision.
There is one MAJOR difference between the Drow and every race you listed here. The Drow are not just a natural race whose society just happens to be evil. The Drow are elves that have so embraced evil into the deepest chambers of the soul that they have metamorphized into the Drow. Therefore it is impossible for any Drow to be good. If s/he were good, s/he would not be a Drow. Pretty much by definition.
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Ah, but members of the race making demonic bargains is not the same as a demon's own connection to evil. A demon literally is evil, everything abhorrent about the universe given flesh. If it ceased to be evil, it would cease to be. If a drow ceased to be evil, it would merely risk the intense displeasure of its family and its family's demonic patrons. By those very words, it is primarily the Matrons of the House who make the deals with the demons. There are doubtlessly a number of grunts, particularly males, who have never personally treated with demons. Is it so inconceivable that one of them could flee drow society, perhaps first out of fear or some sense of self-preservation, and eventually learn traits of kindness and compassion?
I would say, yes it is inconceivable. Remember, these are Drow, and elves, not humans like most of you people (us dwarves are a superior race). By being an Elf and a Drow they have a different thought pattern, alien if you will. Otherwise, they would just be tall humans with pointy ears.
(us dwarves are a superior race).
I think it's quite hard to look down on others if you have to get up to your toes to address their bellybuttons.
Humans, and elves, and orcs, and a lot of other races, cannot help but look down on dwarves.
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Yup, Golarion drow aren't just evil because of upbringing, society, environment, diet or whatever else that makes Orcs go aaargh and Goblins go squeee. They are evil because they made a choice that taints their blood so strongly, that they are beyond redemption. Or that's how I see it... it runs in the blood, basically.To say that the demonic taint in your blood makes you beyond redemption would mean that there could never be a good tiefling character either, or that, if using Pathfinder, that all sorcerers with Abyssal or Infernal bloodlines have to be evil as well. The first drow did make the choice to consprt with the demonic powers, but since then they have become a race that breeds true rather than being born a normal elf and undergoing the transformation later. I think that there is room for the ocassional good drow, but they should be rare and an outcast among their own people and the surface dwellers. The player should also have a real good reason why they did not under go the "cure" for their condition that JB mentioned earlier.
Maybe it's rarer in Drow because of the Rovagug element - that's not just demonic taint, that the taint of an evil god.
compulsive murderers in the real world: unlikely, reverse adjusted to their society, unfavorable, likely feared, and destined to meet an unhappy end.
I. need. to. eat.
Good drow won't be outcast unless they can flee their more conventional brethren. Because if they can't, they'll be killed or dridered.
We need a new show. Dexter: The Good Drow. Watch as he hides in plain sight and secretly follows his good urges. Dexter, the serial good samuritan.
no GOOD DROW EVER!!!!
Never say never. I think there should be a few. Those who have an epiphany of goodness or somehow managed to survive with their morals intact. All one-in-a-million cases, and not subject to dozens of books and comics and cameos in computer games, but not even outsiders should be subject to absolute absolutes.
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Creative Director
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no GOOD DROW EVER!!!!Never say never. I think there should be a few. Those who have an epiphany of goodness or somehow managed to survive with their morals intact. All one-in-a-million cases, and not subject to dozens of books and comics and cameos in computer games, but not even outsiders should be subject to absolute absolutes.
At this point, I think that the only good drow in Golarion should be PCs. We have no plans to do a good drow NPC anytime soon.