Okay, so last THursday we faced Dragotha, defeating him in 3 rounds (one of them a surprise round). First off, should let you know, that the session before we followed the WOrm Drake to Dragotha's lair (the drake had teleported away, and we followed his relleport with a miricle). Dragotha breathed and killed two of our numbers. THen we teleported away like good boys and girls facing the First Dracolich unprepared.
Our party consists of a Paladin/Vassal of Bahamut, a Cleric/Warlock with the cleric warlock class that acts like a mystic theurge (can't rememebr the name of the PrC), a WIzard/Mage of the Arcane Order/Archmage, a Pixie Rogue, plus a Psuedo-dragon Healer. In addition, there is a 20th level Bronze dragon who did not make the game, and we also had a solar as a henchman at the time (no levels, just solar with some treasure)
So, the first hour of Thursday determined the course of the battle agasint Dragotha, plotting how we were going to face him. ANd the warlock/cleric came up with a cheesy but valid idea. We bought a bunch of gate scrolls, half and half so that warlock/cleric and wizard could cast them, then the warlock/cleric used a miricle (5000 xp usage) to cause Dragotha to miraculously appear in the torture chamber of the spire of longshadows, where the called solars were to hit him with mass heals. ALl but one failed thier saves and were paralized.
Warlock/Cleric uses another miricle, and they all gain freedom of movemnt. Several mass heals later, a couple sneak attack from rogue (she has the crystal that lets her sneak attack undead) and then a single sphere of ultimate destruction (he saved so took only 5d6, but it still killed him) and the First Dracolich falls, in less thatn 18 seconds.
Now this sure was a cheesy way, the solars and lots of miricles, but did anyone else think to use magic to pull him away from his lair? Or to use similar tactics?
Oh, and we dimension locked the room so he couldnt use any magics to get away or bring help.
Well thats the expensive way to kill him. Still You'll make money on the transaction. As I recall Dragotha's hoard was...impressive.
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The party I DMed AoW for defeated the Big D on their surprise round. The battle didn't even last a round. Only one spell was actually cast and the battle was over. I'll go dig through the archives and find the old post I made about it. The spell they cast was right from the PHB...Greater Control Undead.
The party I DMed AoW for defeated the Big D on their surprise round. The battle didn't even last a round. Only one spell was actually cast and the battle was over. I'll go dig through the archives and find the old post I made about it. The spell they cast was right from the PHB...Greater Control Undead.
Did they just get lucky? I can't find a spell called greater undead control but there is a 7th level spell called undead control. Thing is the spell allows both a will save and spell resistance. I've not looked at Dragotha's stat block in a long while but I thought he had phenomenal defences in both these areas?
Heh... Interesting battle. I wouldn't allow a wish or miracle to teleport Dragotha, but that's just me. ;-)
I certainly don't plan on allowing the PCs to surprise and corner Dragotha in his lair. Even before the PCs enter the Tabernacle, I'll have Dragotha swoop down and strafe the group with a maximized/clinging deathwind breath attack. He'll make another pass if it's deemed safe, but if the group puts up a strong resistance, he'll dimension door back inside.
I'll definitely have Venk and Mahuudril aiding Dragotha during the final encounter, no doubt.
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Okay, I found the original post of mine from a long time ago...
This is how it went. They had been sitting around planning how to kill Dragotha for quite some time. After losing their fight with Brazzemal (they retreated after destroying the phylactery) they assumed that the larger and more nasty dragon would be even harder. So they created a plan where they might not have to fight at all.
-They essentially cast commune spells, and consulted every powerful person in the campaign world until they figured out that Dragotha had rather sparse defenses due to arrogance and being distracted by the theft of the monolith.
-They cast mind blank on every party member (cannot be scryed).
-They cast some spell (Hide from Dragons?) that made them undetectable to dragons until they touched a dragon's horde or attacked one.
-They made their way through the tabernacle, Dragotha knew they were there...somewhere, but could not scry or see them.
-They fought the clerics and other non-dragon undead while Dragotha shouted at them (but was not aware or where exactly they were).
-They cast miracle and asked to be protected from foresight for the next 10 minutes.
-They reached the Writhing Sanctum and disjuntioned Dragotha as part of a surprise round.
-The next party member limited wished and Dragotha took a minus to the next save.
-Then their solar cast a miracle to give them plus 10 on their next d20 roll.
-They rolled initiative...Dragotha rolled high and the fate-spinner said to reroll. The next roll was much lower.
-Most of the party held their actions until the wizard went.
-On the wizard's turn he and the two sorcs Co-op spelled Control Undead using assorted quickened spells to knock the DC to 42.
-I rolled a natural 20, the other fate-spinner said to re-roll. I rolled a 17, not enough.
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Um... Dragotha has the Undead type, not dragon. The hide from dragon spell shouldn't have worked on him.
Yeah, I suppose I should explain the context of that quote...This was from when I DMed the AoW at least a year ago if not longer. The players had literally sat for hours together out of game coming up with the a plan to kill Dragotha, planning for every contingency and trick. Literally they didn't want to put anything up to chance (dice). I knew they were planning something, but I made the decision to not sit in on their plans (they actually tried to plan secretly through emails but I was given the chance to read these emails at one point, but didn't). When the time came for the battle, it was literally 1 mind vs. 7 minds. I couldn't come up with counter-moves fast enough to stop their plan...missing that Dragotha was undead and not dragon is one of those mistakes made along the way. In any case, the PCs had fun and all was well. I was just trying to see if my party has the speed record or not.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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I hate when that happens... it is hard to know what mad combo of spells and abilities the PC's are researching and make a baddie that's not invulnerable but not a pushover.
My PC's used that spell to good effect against the mature adult Red from the adventure Beyond the Light of Reason! The dragon had schooled them the first encounter but they managed to abscond with a sizable amount of her hoard after sealing themselves in her treasure chamber with walls of force and then using a staff of Earth to passwall out of the forbiddance effect that enclosed the chamber. Of course this was 3.0 and the psion was very broken and disintegrated the dragon their next encounter with like a DC 52 fort save... XPH is thankfully much better balanced.
Hmmm... I guess congratulations are in order? But I'm actually somewhat offended that a group of PCs could kill any dragon, if played properly, so quickly - much less an iconic, uber dragon like Dragotha. If I were a player, I'd actually be disappointed if he didn't kick my backside. In my opinion, DMs running Dragotha should lie, cheat, steal, etc. - do whatever you have to - to make this a long, hard, challenging battle (as I believe it was intended to be). No one should be able to say "Dragotha was an easy kill".
DMR unfortionatly several 3.5 spells at that level basically say XYZ was an easy kill espicially if the PCs planned for it.
Hmmm... I guess congratulations are in order? But I'm actually somewhat offended that a group of PCs could kill any dragon, if played properly, so quickly - much less an iconic, uber dragon like Dragotha. If I were a player, I'd actually be disappointed if he didn't kick my backside. In my opinion, DMs running Dragotha should lie, cheat, steal, etc. - do whatever you have to - to make this a long, hard, challenging battle (as I believe it was intended to be). No one should be able to say "Dragotha was an easy kill".
Urgh...I had a DM like this and it drove me crazy. I found it very demoralizing to think "No matter how hard we work or how carefully we plan, we'll get stomped anyways". Careful planning should be beneficial most of the time, IMO.
Hmmm... I guess congratulations are in order? But I'm actually somewhat offended that a group of PCs could kill any dragon, if played properly, so quickly - much less an iconic, uber dragon like Dragotha. If I were a player, I'd actually be disappointed if he didn't kick my backside. In my opinion, DMs running Dragotha should lie, cheat, steal, etc. - do whatever you have to - to make this a long, hard, challenging battle (as I believe it was intended to be). No one should be able to say "Dragotha was an easy kill".
I agree 100%, though I'm loath to voice this, as I don't want to come off as a holier-than-thou elitist (not that you sound that way)...
Thing is, a creature like Dragotha is hundreds (perhaps thousands) of years old, and has greater intelligence and wisdom than the PCs, the players, AND the DM. No amount of "research" should lead to a 1-round slaying of a legendary boss like Dragotha. He's ready for anything, and "anything" includes divinations and preparatory spellcasting from mortals.
I might also add that running the module as-is is something I avoid. Assuming the Dragotha is just going to chill out in his lair as a group of powerful adventurers rampage through the Tabernacle is illogical. Like I mentioned above, Dragotha will swoop down at least once and dump a maximized death wind on the PCs. In fact, I might have him do that multiple times as the PCs trek through the Wormcrawl Fissure. Further, there's no reason why at least Mahuudril should be on hand buffing and "healing" the dracolich.
I'm not saying that I'm going to "own" my PCs (I expect them to defeat Dragotha, and I don't plan on ending a campaign I love with a TPK), but they must have the impression that Dragotha is wise, cunning, powerful, and supremely intelligent. Changing feats and spells on the fly might seem underhanded to players who expect to exploit rules in their favor (especially to players who own the module and metagame on even the barest of levels), but like I said, Dragotha is smarter than everyone at the table, and he should be played as such.
Hmmm... I guess congratulations are in order? But I'm actually somewhat offended that a group of PCs could kill any dragon, if played properly, so quickly - much less an iconic, uber dragon like Dragotha. If I were a player, I'd actually be disappointed if he didn't kick my backside. In my opinion, DMs running Dragotha should lie, cheat, steal, etc. - do whatever you have to - to make this a long, hard, challenging battle (as I believe it was intended to be). No one should be able to say "Dragotha was an easy kill".
To an extent I agree with you but I can't really agree with teh idea that the DM should cheat to make this hard.
A DM that takes advantage of every opportunity to kick but with Dragotha is cool but not to the point were he is just making stuff up on the spot to tell the players why their plans don't work. Thats essentially punishing the players for planning.
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I don't run these modules as is though. Replace the dragon invisibility spell with Hide from Undead and you are once again at the same problem as before. Dragotha knows that the party is somewhere in his complex, but can't find them. It does not matter how intelligently I play him, the PCs found the weak spot of being a dracolich and they exploited it. Being undead gives you limitless time to do things, but it also makes it possible to control you with one spell.
Also catch the fact that I mentioned two fate-spinners in the run down of things. One had been a fate-spinner for awhile, the other party member actually took several levels of fate-spinner just for this plan. They actually formed this plan, levels ahead of time! Literally the moment they heard about Dragotha, the party started its planning. They had several party members with Int scores that equal a dragon's. That's it, no way around it.
Hide from Undead/Mind blank is a nice move, but in the event that Dragotha is aware of someone or something annihilating his servitor fodder, something that he can neither detect or see, I would imagine escape would be prudent, especially with his phylactery missing.
Indeed, an undead foe is immortal, and Dragotha could (perhaps should) have fled and taken up the hunt against whoever or whatever was powerful enough to lay waste to his lair and go completely undetected by a thousand-year-old dracolich. I really can't see him stomping around in a rage, blasting the very air itself hoping to slay a foe he can neither detect through scrying or see or spot with even his blindsense.
Yes, I understand he's described as arrogant, but I think common sense would have trumped arrogance in this case.
I know the situation is over and done with, so I guess my suggestions might help future scenarios. If my PCs were gearing up in the above-mentioned situation, and they took out even one overworm, or wasted Venk or Mahuudril, Dragotha would have departed.
We did actualy face Dragotha twice, as meantioned in another post. He uses a Miracle to follow the Worm Dragon to where he D-doored when he fled from us, and we wound up standing about 100 feet away from Dragotha. DM forgot about the paralyzing aura, but Dragotha and the Wyrn Dragon killed two of our number in the first round, both the people who can heal. Unprepared, I teleported us and the bodies away.
Thats when I came up with the idea to get out returned cleric to Miracle the dracolich to us, to a place of our choosing, as opposed to his stronghold. SOmeone said that they wouldnt have allowed someone to miracle him there, realize Miracle is the most powerful non-epic spell there is. You can do pretty much anything you wanna do with wish, AND More. You are basically saying "hey, Bahamut (or whatever god you might worship) I need your help." And B goes "okay." and grabs the puppy and puts him there. Now if a deity more powerful that B had Dragotha's back, it might not have worked, but Kyss is only a demigod, and an imprissoned one at that. Dragotha didnt have the magic to keep himself from the intervention of a god.
The gate idea was added, and we actualy argued for about a half hour on wether or not we should do it that way. I mean, it did seem a little cheesy. ANd even then, all but one was paralized when Dragotha appeared.
Our GM also forgot the spirits of Bucknard (aka Balakard).
My own phylosophy is when the PCs do somethign unexpected, and its realy not something that you think the Big Bad would be prepared for, thats the fun part of the game, the unexpected. When you cokme down to it, you can not prepare for all contingencies.
SOmeone said that they wouldnt have allowed someone to miracle him there, realize Miracle is the most powerful non-epic spell there is. You can do pretty much anything you wanna do with wish, AND More. You are basically saying "hey, Bahamut (or whatever god you might worship) I need your help." And B goes "okay." and grabs the puppy and puts him there. Now if a deity more powerful that B had Dragotha's back, it might not have worked, but Kyss is only a demigod, and an imprissoned one at that. Dragotha didnt have the magic to keep himself from the intervention of a god.
Point taken, however, that “someone” who said that he/she wouldn't have allowed miracle to work that way is using the rules as they were intended. Of course, the very concept of wish and miracle makes it seem like anything is possible. "I wish for exactly 1 million gold coins to appear in a pile 50 yards from my home" seems like a well-worded wish, but wish shouldn't be allowed to grant such gifts (unless the DM sacks WELL over 5,000 xp, possibly removing a level if the DM sees fit, possibly killing the caster if the wording is impossible to warp). The example given in the text limits the gp value of an item created to a mere 25,000 gp, setting a definable cap on the spell. That’s just one example.
In terms of teleportation, the miracle spell has this relative limit set: "Moving you and your allies, with all your and their gear, from one plane to another through planar barriers to a specific locale with no chance of error." Certainly wish can also be used as a guide in terms of a relative limitation: "Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies." At the very least, Dragotha should have been given a save and spell resistance chance to avoid being teleported, especially if the spellcaster did not know his exact location, especially if the target is not within sight or reach of the caster, and especially since the miracle in question goes so far beyond the boundaries set by the spell description. Dragotha, on the other hand, used miracle to teleport himself, which would coincide with the spell description.
Like I said above, going so far beyond the spell description would bring with it an enormous XP cost, possibly dropping the caster a level if the DM sees fit, possibly killing the caster in the process if the wording is impossible to warp.
Epic spellcasting might allow a caster to pull a thousand-year-old gargantuan dracolich to his/her position, but not wish/miracle (unless the above costs are suffered, possibly).
Miracle doesn't force gods into action, either, unless that god is taking action to thwart such a massive alteration of reality.
My apologies. I’m a DM, and I feel the need to “yank the chain” concerning abuse of the rules. It happens all the time at my table, and wish/miracle is no exception. As a general rule, I never allow wish or miracle to achieve a result that goes beyond results allowable by 8th level magic. Wish and miracle can still be extremely clutch, but both spells have their limits.
Very well put. I agree that wish/miracle are powerful spells but they still have limits.Too often players take it literally that they can do anything with it as long as it is carefully worded. Like you said, Crust, Dragotha should have been allowed a save and SR at least.
The problem I am seeing with the interpitations of WIsh and Miracle is that peopel seem to think Wish and Miracle are the same spell just different names. They are not. Miracle does not have a limit to what it can do, unlike Wish. It can be used to emulate spells without the XP cost, Undo harmful effects like wish with out XP cost, and do simimlar things without XP cost. For 5000 XP a miracle will perform a powerful request, such as those listed, but not limited to those. It is not a stretch to say that A Miracle to call a powerful dracolich to you is within the bounds of a Miracle. In effect, it is emulating a teleportation trap, so a circle of teleportation.
ANd, yes, Miracle is the direct intervention of a deity (or power or what not you worship). First paragraph says you dont cast the spell as request that it be done. Miracle is a very powerful spell, its effects outclass any other spell out there.
And you cant tell me that Bahamut wouldnt want Dragotha out of the picture.
Hey, every table is different. To each his own.
I think you should have just used miracle to annihilate Dragotha outright. Wouldn't that have been easier? I mean, if Bahamut wants Dragotha out of the picture, is miracle even necessary? ;-)
I wonder if Tiamat has an opinion on the situation.
And what of Kyuss? Which god wants him gone?
I'm also curious as to why Dragotha didn't move out of the 20' radius of the dimensional lock and either teleport/plane shift or summon aid. Dimensional anchor would have been a better choice.
He actualy didnt have time. My DM informs me that we killed him in 2 rounds, not three. I thought he had got an action, but he didn't. So it was a surprise round then 1 round, and he was dead before he could act.
Had he acted, the room he was called to was to small for him to get out of the 20 ft. radius of the d-lock. We used the torture room at the Spire of Long SHadows. Had he acted, he sure could have tried to get out, but he had two solars blocking the door, which means he pretty much was out of luck, maybe he could have bullrushed, but then there is one more round of a can of whoop on him (unless he happened to be able to quicken a teleport, i dunno if he did or not)
As for Tiamat, she probly couldnt care less, being the goddess she is, she probably actualy wanted him dead, but couldnt afford to deal with it, as she has another lovily red dragon to romp around with, probably lots of red dragosn since the 2000+ years he has been in 'disfavor'. Good riddens she is probably thinking. No more alamony payments.
As for Bahamut, the god that 2/3rds of the group worship, well. We were there, acting in his name. ANd he answered our miracle. He was working to take Dragotha out of the picture, though us.
As for Kyuss. He is a demigod, divine rank 1 for those who have Deities and Demigods. Even a lesser god like, I dunno, Bahamut, have more divine power in thier little pinkie than he does. And, he is locked up in a big gem. If a cleric of Bahamut were to call for a miracle, and a cleric of Kyuss were to try to use a miracle to cancel it, I personaly would say that it would be a divine-on, maybe caster levels plus divine rank, since this comes to a point of two deities actualy acting against another at the behest of a worshiper.
As for dimensional anchor, we had been told he could summon a bunch of badies to him, and not wanting to deal with a fully healed (though dragonwracked some) worm dragon. THere were reasons we went the way we did.
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If I were you, I'd burn 5,000 XP and use miracle to get a new DM. ;-)
Why? Because you thihnk his rulings are dumb? That he chose not to make the most powerful spell in the game less powergul thatn Wish? We are pretty happy with our DM, who like me, is human and DOES make mistakes. I woudln't want a DM who doesn't make mistakes. But you know what you are right. Every table is different. If I had to deal with a DM who made rulings that it seems you are use to making or dealing with, I would might want to want another DM, becasue a DM that gets frustrated and upset that their Players do something they didnt think of, and dont allow it, is not a DM worth playing with.
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If I were you, I'd burn 5,000 XP and use miracle to get a new DM. ;-)
What the heck is that supposed to mean?!
Just remember Crust, while Wish might be a more powerful spell and can be twisted to hurt the caster...Miracle quite literally CAN'T be warped! It's one of the benefits of it being a divine spell. Instead of using supreme arcane power to warp the very nature of the world like Wish does, Miracle is literally a PC praying to their god and the god saying "I'll try my best, here you go!" That's why Miracle has limits to what it can do, but it will ALWAYS suceed in a way that benefits the caster.
The Miracle as described in this thread fits those rules and was a good idea.
EDIT: Far too many DMs like to make asses of themselves twisting Wish spells without reason. If you don't like the spell, remove it from the game, don't screw your players over.
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Miracle isn't the most powerful spell in the game. Dire winter, an epic spell, is more powerful. In fact, dragon knight, an epic spell that requires at least three epic spellcasters casting in unison for it to work, summons an adult red dragon to the casters. Considering that, forcefully calling a specific ancient red dracolich is not only going beyond the boundaries of a 9th level spell (miracle is, after all, a 9th level spell regardless of the vague spell description), it's going beyond the boundaries of an epic spell requiring three epic spellcasters to cast.
Beyond that logic, as a DM, I can understand a player assuming that miracle is capable of "anything" if the caster is willing to burn XP, but in the case of Dragotha, a boss monster that has a rich history and thousands of years on the PCs, the players, and the DM, there's no way I'd allow him to be teleported into the midst of a party of PCs who are buffed and have readied actions set to annihilate, solars on hand, etc. That's exploitation of an ambiguous spell description in the eyes of this DM.
My players use every opportunity to use muddled or poorly-written rules to their advantage, and it's up to the DM to counter that with logic and reason (like comparison to the dragon knight spell above) and a general idea of what should and shouldn't happen within the boundaries of reality in-game (note my example of Bahamut's response to such a miracle below).
Certainly none of the examples in the miracle spell description even hint that such a thing would be possible even WITH the XP penalty. Casters can move themselves and party members to other planes, can save cities from volcanic eruptions, and restore fallen comrades to life, and all these examples are used to save others at the expense of the caster. Assuming that such vague rules allow one to summon hundreds of millions of gold pieces, destroy a planet, or call a dracolich into a cramped room full of readied PCs (all examples of exploitation of power, something chromatic dragons are known for, certainly something that Bahamut would frown upon) is, like I said, exploitation of ambiguous rules, something that savvy D&D players are notorious for across the globe.
I ask again, why not simply use miracle to destroy Dragotha outright and soak up the XP? By your reasoning, miracle would allow that. Why waste time buffing and gating in solars when you can just use miracle to annihilate bosses without even meeting them?
I'd like to hear from your DM, personally. I wonder if he/she deeply regrets the decision in hindsight. Not that we'll get an honest response (people, myself included, are often reluctant to admit a mistake), but if I could read your DM's mind, I wonder what I'd find.
Does it matter now? No. Is anyone going to learn from this? That depends on who's reading these posts, whether that reader is a DM or player, and how familiar that person is with the rules and the subtle nuances of D&D such as ambiguous rules that can be easily exploited by players.
Sean,
What you're saying makes sense, but such uses of miracle should have a greater cost than 5,000 XP (if even allowed at all).
And my comment meant that in my opinion, the DM made a poor decision, nerfing Dragotha and giving players the idea that they can use miracle to automatically succeed in any situation the DM presents so long as the player can somehow explain how his/her god would prefer to grant the miracle and is willing to lose 5,000 XP, an XP cost that will most-likely be regained in the aftermath of the miracle.
It's up to the DM to reign in outrageous uses of spells like wish and miracle, and such decisions are not the same as twisting spells for no reason. Players are quick to pull that card, but that's really all it is, pulling a card.
To each his own. My posts are the yin to Malikor's yang, nothing more.
So are you saying Teleportation Circle is completly out of bounds with a Miracle? That is basically all that was used. Sure, it was done at a range, targeting a specific creature.
And the essense of the mircacle was simply to bring Dragotha to us, it did not make him any less powerful than he was, and as for miracling him dead, that to me seems out of the bounds, otherwise somoeone could just miracle oh...Mordekainen dead or Tensor.
But realy, as I just meantioned, all this particular miracle did was to place a Teleportation Circle trap under Dragotha. No, he didnt give Dragotha a save or SR. Does he feel bad, his words: If I think so? Nahh... 5k xp for a change of venue, especially one that was dramatically appropriate, doesn't seem bad to me... the fight looked like it'd be a 'gimme' with all those solars.. and then when Paralysis Gaze kicked in and most of the solars fell down, I got that gratifying look of 'uh oh'
WHen players are realy prepared, they can typically take down even the bosses pretty quick. We took out the big bad in Spire in 2 rounds as well, because we prepared, and took advantage out of thier hands.
Just becasue players plan well, doesnt mean the DM changes things to make it not work, Players should be rewarded for thier efforts.
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It's far different from teleportation circle. The casting time of teleportation circle is 10 minutes, which I suppose can be soaked up by a miracle costing 5K XP. Aside from that, the teleportation circle trap must be trod upon, and casting it under an unwilling subject is stretching things. This is of course my opinion, and really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.
Indeed, it didn't make him less powerful, but it took him completely off guard and gave your entire party a surprise round to do whatever they wanted, tipping the scales (forgive the pun) too far in your favor. A change of venue is one thing, but when that venue comprises readied, buffed PCs and a dimensional lock, that's more than a change of venue. Again, this is just my opinion, and in the interest of game balance, I couldn't allow that.
And yes, it would seem out of bounds using miracle to slay whomever. I'm glad we're both seeing the need for balance.
I have no doubt that your party could have taken Dragotha even without the miracle. When my group meets Dragotha, I have no intention of ending the campaign. Even if they prepare horribly, I will find a way to continue the campaign. After all, I didn't put all this work into a campaign to allow a TPK when I'm not ready to stop the story.
And lastly, by reigning in miracle, the DM is not changing things to make the spell not work. Miracle's spell description is too ambiguous, and when a DM like myself makes it clear that the spell can be used "this" way and not "that" way, it's an attempt to curb exploitation and achieve balance not punish players for planning ahead. I'm not going to screw my players for my own enjoyment, holding my power over them like a tyrant. But I will not allow my players to exploit poorly-written rules. No DM should allow that.
After reading these posts, it seems miracle is regarded as more powerful than wish. I beg to differ, it is essentially the cleric equivalent to a wish. Yes, it is a divine spell and there are differences between the two, but I don't think a cleric could achieve something through a miracle that a wizard couldn't through wish. The XP cost is the same and they are both open to interpretation by the players and ultimately the DM's judgement call. I kept both spells unavailable to the players in my previous campaigns and it worked out well. It is only for the AoW that I have allowed them back into the game, so I find it interesting to see how others use them. This will definately help when my players get to this level (and meet Dragotha) to decide how to use these spells.
As for the Dragotha debate, I think it was an excellent strategy to use, but have to admit I'd have given him a save and/or SR. That's just me and my two cents.
I might say sure, that miracle and wish are identicale spells, if it wasnt for the fact that four very specific uses of miracle that do not require an xp cost beyond what the spell you are duplicating might require:
1)Duplicate a cleric spell of 8th level or lower including spells you have access to because of domains
2)Duplicate any other spell of 7th level or lower
3)Undo the harmful effects of certain spells such as feeblemind or insanity
4)Have an effect whose power level is in line with the above effects
This is why it is more powerful than wish, becasue you dont have to spend xp like wish does. Now sure, you cant get 8th level wizard spells, but then wish doesnt allow you to get 8th level cleric spells, and after all, duplicating spell effects is almost the number one use of miracle and wish, and thus there is no aducation needed by dm on if it is to powerful, as it clearly defines what those effects can be used for.
Crush,
OH and yes, I agree with you, that he should have had a save and SR after looking at somethings (wishs transport traveler, it does not say that those creatures have to be in your presence), however, the DM felt the change of venue was fitting, considering where we took him, and also realized Dragotha would have been in troubel anyway even if we had gone to him. The outcome would have been pretty much the same. His initative would have still sucked...the solars would have done thier thing, and so would have the pixie rogue with the greater cryatal that lets her sneak attack him (i cant for the life of me right now remember the name, but it is from Magic Item COmpendium). I woudla just uses a wish to transport up to 21 of us (was 20th level, with spell power from archmage) to hsi lair, which we had seen, and done it that way. THere might have been more fighting, because he might have had an anticipate teleport up, though am not sure if that use of wish would work that way. Or we could have used gate from one plane to the lair, etc, etc. :)
The problem I am seeing with the interpitations of WIsh and Miracle is that peopel seem to think Wish and Miracle are the same spell just different names. They are not. Miracle does not have a limit to what it can do, unlike Wish. It can be used to emulate spells without the XP cost, Undo harmful effects like wish with out XP cost, and do simimlar things without XP cost. For 5000 XP a miracle will perform a powerful request, such as those listed, but not limited to those. It is not a stretch to say that A Miracle to call a powerful dracolich to you is within the bounds of a Miracle. In effect, it is emulating a teleportation trap, so a circle of teleportation.
ANd, yes, Miracle is the direct intervention of a deity (or power or what not you worship). First paragraph says you dont cast the spell as request that it be done. Miracle is a very powerful spell, its effects outclass any other spell out there.
And you cant tell me that Bahamut wouldnt want Dragotha out of the picture.
Heh, yes I an quoting my own post. I wanted to clarify something here. I meant, though I didn't make it clear, that miracle doesnt have the same kinda of limit as wish. If you wish for something to big, it will blow up in your face. If you ask for a miracle that is out of bounds to what your deity/power/whatever can do, it just doesnt happen. No, woops, you wished you could attack a hundred times in a round, and grew 100 arms.
Miracle isn't the most powerful spell in the game. Dire winter, an epic spell, is more powerful.
I jsut want to clarify that I meantioned earlier, that I was saying miracle is the most powerful non-epic spell.
To me, an epic spell isnt even a spell, its liek apples and pigs. A spell to me, is non-epic (apple), while and epic spell is epic (pig). Not sure if my thinking on this is coming clear. Its 3am almost and I cant sleep.
The problem I am seeing with the interpitations of WIsh and Miracle is that peopel seem to think Wish and Miracle are the same spell just different names. They are not. Miracle does not have a limit to what it can do, unlike Wish. It can be used to emulate spells without the XP cost, Undo harmful effects like wish with out XP cost, and do simimlar things without XP cost. For 5000 XP a miracle will perform a powerful request, such as those listed, but not limited to those. It is not a stretch to say that A Miracle to call a powerful dracolich to you is within the bounds of a Miracle. In effect, it is emulating a teleportation trap, so a circle of teleportation.
ANd, yes, Miracle is the direct intervention of a deity (or power or what not you worship). First paragraph says you dont cast the spell as request that it be done. Miracle is a very powerful spell, its effects outclass any other spell out there.
And you cant tell me that Bahamut wouldnt want Dragotha out of the picture.
Heh, yes I an quoting my own post. I wanted to clarify something here. I meant, though I didn't make it clear, that miracle doesnt have the same kinda of limit as wish. If you wish for something to big, it will blow up in your face. If you ask for a miracle that is out of bounds to what your deity/power/whatever can do, it just doesnt happen. No, woops, you wished you could attack a hundred times in a round, and grew 100 arms.
By "most people," do you mean "people who don't own or use the Epic Level Handbook"? What does that matter? A tree, when it falls, still makes a sound whether someone is there to hear it or not. Epic material is valid in this argument whether a person uses epic material or not.
Epic material is core material. PCs gaining levels beyond 20 are epic PCs. No way around that logic. Wish and miracle shouldn't be trumping epic spells, just like prestidigitation shouldn't be trumping 1st level spells.
And there are people who don't bother with 0th level spells either. Does that make my comparison any less valid? Only to people who don't use 0th level spells in their games and DMs who don't use the Epic Level Handbook when players reach level 21.
I don't run these modules as is though. Replace the dragon invisibility spell with Hide from Undead and you are once again at the same problem as before. Dragotha knows that the party is somewhere in his complex, but can't find them. It does not matter how intelligently I play him, the PCs found the weak spot of being a dracolich and they exploited it. Being undead gives you limitless time to do things, but it also makes it possible to control you with one spell.
Also catch the fact that I mentioned two fate-spinners in the run down of things. One had been a fate-spinner for awhile, the other party member actually took several levels of fate-spinner just for this plan. They actually formed this plan, levels ahead of time! Literally the moment they heard about Dragotha, the party started its planning. They had several party members with Int scores that equal a dragon's. That's it, no way around it.
Not really, big flaw with the hide undead plan:
Hide from Undead (a 1st level spell by the way) is not automatic, an intelligent undead creature gets a single Will saving throw to see the warded creatures.
Dragotha's Will Save +26 unbuffed! You can't cripple Dragotha like that with a 1st level spell! If he and his allies see the party, totally different battle strategy and maybe outcome.
As for epic spells being core, they are in the SRD, but since not every Epic spellcaster actualy gets them (you do have to take a feat, and some spellcaster's do not qualify, or some simply will not take it for a while) epic spells fall into a special catagory I think. But whether or not wish and miracle can 'trump' a epic spell, I know I stated, as I did just reciently, I was calling miracle the most powerful non-epic spell. WHen you get to to epic spells, its a toss up wether they are more powerful to be honest. ANimus Blast is a combined Cold-fireball (except its a hemisphere not a burst) and has a limited range, and a special animate dead..takes 9 days to figure it out. One could possibly do this effect with a well planned cold fireball and then a wish/miracle to animate, for a lot less money and such. But in general, epic does trump non-epic.
And if after the first time I used 'most powerful non-epic spell' and forgot to put in non-epic after, I appologize, woulda figured people would have remembered the non-spic before :)
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Saying "non-epic" wouldn't have changed my argument. Using miracle to teleport a specific ancient red dracolich into a cramped room of the caster's choosing is an effect that is more powerful then dragon knight. Describing miracle as "the most-powerful spell" or "the most-powerful non-epic spell" is irrelevant.
I'm not sure how it's a toss-up whether epic spells are more powerful than miracle. In order to cast epic spells, you have to have mastered 9th level spellcasting already, you have to have at least 21 levels to fulfill the 24 ranks needed in spellcraft and knowledge: arcana, you have to research and build the epic spell out of seeds, you also have to be able to beat a spellcraft DC before the spell even works, and you need the epic spellcasting feat. All you need to cast miracle is a certain caster level (which is always below 21), a spare 5,000 XP to burn, and an excuse that the DM will buy.
There's no question that epic spells are more powerful than miracle. That logic can (and should, really) be used to reign in an ambiguous spell description like miracle. To do otherwise is to open a Pandora's box of rules exploitation that can cause the game to spiral out of control, giving non-epic PCs more power than can be expected by either the author of a Dungeon module or the DM running a game.
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There's no question that epic spells are more powerful than miracle.
Epic spells should be more powerful than a wish of a miracle, but a lot of the spells in the epic level handbook aren't very well designed, or have been trumped by spells from various splat books. There is a better, lower level version of Dire Winter in the Frostfell book for example.
I also think a lot of the direct damage spells in the epic level book are very inefficient. Look at Hellball for instance, it should be way more powerful than the non-epic spells, but its very easy to do more damage with lower level spells (metamagicked up the wazoo), especially as you move away from the PHB and into the land of supplements and prestige classes.Trying to balance a wish or a miracle against an epic spell isn't going to be a fruitful exercise imho.
If I were using hellball as my specific example (or epic mage armor or dire winter or greater ruin), I wouldn't be very successful in my argument, which is why I used dragon knight as my specific example. I might have mentioned dire winter, but I only mentioned it. We're talking about teleporting a specific being to a specific point without line of sight or even a general idea of where the target is, not about dealing damage or summoning winter for a mere 20 hours.
In the realm of dealing damage, it is certainly possible to use metamagic feats to create a spell that deals damage equal to hellball, but to achieve 10d6 damage of acid, fire, electricity, and sonic in one casting... well, that's pretty much impossible unless you want to use the archmage high arcana mastery of elements to make your fireball a sonicball (since admixture doesn't allow sonic), then use energy admixture three times which would require an epic caster to take improved spell capacity SIX TIMES to fulfill the level jump (mastery of elements sonicball admixed with fire 3 + 4 = 7th level slot, admixed with acid + 4 = 11th level slot, admixed with electricity + 4 = a level 15 spell slot). This build won't cause the caster to suffer 10d6 damage as would be the case with hellball, but it'll require a spellcaster who is at least level 29 in order to fulfill the six improved spell capacity feats.
The only other way I can think of is to cast time stop and cast four delayed blast fireballs, each augmented with mastery of elements (fire, sonic, electricity, and acid). Of course, that isn't exactly one casting, and you're burning a lot of spells, but it'll get the job done, right?
There are other ways to deal more damage than hellball in terms of base numbers, but if you want to deal 10d6 fire, sonic, electricity, and acid damage in one casting, hellball is the way to go.
Of course, getting past the spellcraft DC of 90 is another story. Perhaps moment of prescience would be in order.
Also keep in mind that even though some of those epic spells might be poorly written, they act as examples. The section dealing with crafting epic spells through seeds and various penalties and parameters allows a caster to construct a spell with greater clarity and a greater sense of balance in-game, whereas the spells in the PHB are "take them as they are."
And when considering the splatbooks, anything's possible. There's a 1st level arcane spell in the Spell Compendium called benign transposition that allows a caster to take two allies and switch their positions through a teleport effect without even touching them. A 1st level spell that uses teleport? Madness. There's another spell in there called rhino's rush, a 1st level ranger spell that is a SWIFT ACTION, that allows a well-built ranger to deal hundreds of points of damage to his favored enemy in one blow. The splatbooks, especially in terms of spells, are the most poorly-written and poorly prepared books in 3.5. It's as if the writers haven't even considered the existence of other books.
Is there a point to all this? Perhaps. Does it have anything do with the using miracle to teleport a specific ancient red dracolich into a specific confined space with no chance of failure? No.
Comparisons work only if applied well.
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Once you can get sonic damage there isn't much point in doing the acid / fire etc.. there isn't a lot of resistance to sonic out there, but that's going off topic...
Perhaps then comparing Dragon Knight and Gate would be in order?
It's a ninth level spell that is way better than Dragon Knight.
For starters:
Calling Creatures
The second effect of the gate spell is to call an extraplanar creature to your aid (a calling effect). By naming a particular being or kind of being as you cast the spell, you cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature and pull the subject through, willing or unwilling.
No save, no SR.
You could also look at the specific text of miracle where it lays out a few scenarios where it is also better than a bunch of epic spells.
* Swinging the tide of a battle in your favor by raising fallen allies to continue fighting.
* Moving you and your allies, with all your and their gear, from one plane to another through planar barriers to a specific locale with no chance of error.
* Protecting a city from an earthquake, volcanic eruption, flood, or other major natural disaster.
If you can move you and your allies with out error through planar barriers, stop a volcano, or perform an instant mass raise dead then its not a huge stretch to consider pulling one creature to you. Now its of course subject to dm fiat, but its not out of the picture.
If Dragotha were extraplanar, that might work.
Also consider that "Deities and unique beings [such as Dragotha, extraplanar or not] are under no compulsion to come through the gate, although they may choose to do so of their own accord."
Considering the list given above, like I said in a previous post, those situations (raising fallen comrades, saving a town/city from a natural disaster, mass plane shifting) are all examples of saving lives at the cost of the caster. Forcing a being into a cramped space filled with buffed PCs with weapons drawn back and everyone with readied actions is not the same thing. That's power-mongering in an effort to soak up XP and claim a huge treasure hoard, and power-mongering, something that is evil, something that chromatic dragons do, something that Bahamut--the deity in question granting the miracle--would... perhaps should... frown upon regardless of the target. Bahamut couldn't possibly be ok with one of his own worshippers taking on the tactics of the very being the cleric is trying to destroy: a chromatic dracolich.
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I haven't seen the stat block for the dragon in question.
Gate might not work on this dragon, but it is still better at summoning than Dragon Knight. (although I can't remember the hit die limit of what you can summon is it 40?)
As to tactics and the appropriateness of the miracle.. well we wander off into the realm of DM fiat again.
As long as the miracle advances the game, and gives the players and the dm the experience they are after..then I say roll with it.
I was just trying to say Crush, when you got into the tiff about my saying miracle was the most powerful non-epic spell, you came out with epic spells as more powerful. Thats all. ANywho
And the reasoning for my statement about stating that its a toss up is more of an esoteric/power thing. EPic spells take forever to figure out, and once you do, they don't always work (spellcraft check required to cast). As opposed to non-epic spells take up to 9 days to learn, and once you do, you have 100% chance to cast them (with the exception of miracle and wish which might fail, and gate if you try to gate a deity :)) and maybe a few other spells, I dont know ALL of the spells by heart.
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If Dragotha were extraplanar, that might work.
Also consider that "Deities and unique beings [such as Dragotha, extraplanar or not] are under no compulsion to come through the gate, although they may choose to do so of their own accord."
Considering the list given above, like I said in a previous post, those situations (raising fallen comrades, saving a town/city from a natural disaster, mass plane shifting) are all examples of saving lives at the cost of the caster. Forcing a being into a cramped space filled with buffed PCs with weapons drawn back and everyone with readied actions is not the same thing. That's power-mongering in an effort to soak up XP and claim a huge treasure hoard, and power-mongering, something that is evil, something that chromatic dragons do, something that Bahamut--the deity in question granting the miracle--would... perhaps should... frown upon regardless of the target. Bahamut couldn't possibly be ok with one of his own worshippers taking on the tactics of the very being the cleric is trying to destroy: a chromatic dracolich.
After some further thought, I think I'm being unnecessarily argumentative with you Crush. Miracle and wish are vague and tricky to implement and balance and looking to epic spells for some guidance is a logical approach. My only beef with that is the less than epic vibe a lot of the epic spells have. Every table is going to have to hash it out for themselves, and me spouting about it is sort of silly.
You guys can call me Crust. ;-)
Woops, sorry. Crust :)
Dunno where I got Crush...
If Dragotha were extraplanar, that might work.
Also consider that "Deities and unique beings [such as Dragotha, extraplanar or not] are under no compulsion to come through the gate, although they may choose to do so of their own accord."
Considering the list given above, like I said in a previous post, those situations (raising fallen comrades, saving a town/city from a natural disaster, mass plane shifting) are all examples of saving lives at the cost of the caster. Forcing a being into a cramped space filled with buffed PCs with weapons drawn back and everyone with readied actions is not the same thing. That's power-mongering in an effort to soak up XP and claim a huge treasure hoard, and power-mongering, something that is evil, something that chromatic dragons do, something that Bahamut--the deity in question granting the miracle--would... perhaps should... frown upon regardless of the target. Bahamut couldn't possibly be ok with one of his own worshippers taking on the tactics of the very being the cleric is trying to destroy: a chromatic dracolich.
I agree with you on that Dragotha wouldnt have to had answered. AS for being extraplanar, one could go to another plane, and use Gate to have tried to call . him to you, since anything not from the plane that you are on is considered extraplanar...hehe, can you imagine being on Celestia and being unable to gate a solar to you from there, messed up :) Again nothing says he has to answer though. YOu are right.
As for the tactics, the treasure was not the reason we went after him, nor was the power (all though, I have to admit, getting a staff of the magi was sweet woot). But becasue he was a nasty evil servant of Kyuss, and we needed to take him out.
Was the tactic of bringing him to us the way we did wrong? Depends on if you think a paladin (I usualy see Bahamat as one of those Paladinesc deities) not take advantage of a suprise round? Is hitting an opponent while he is flat-footed a violation of his code? I say no its not (and I realy dont want to get into the paladin thing, so many many threads all over the net, so we can agree to disagree on the paladiin thing. Though I will give you this one, it likly is not something someone who is an exlated LG...that may be an issue, I will grant you that one (and when I say may here I mean 95% chance it is)
However, had we done it different, used miracle or wish to transport the solars and us to the lair, used D-anchor (since the lair was larger, would have used anchor instead, wouldnt have been as effective since he could still call things to him) the combat would likely have taken place the same, except that less of the solars would have been paralized becasue of the balacard spirit thing going on.
Gaining surprise may or may not have happened, but the Dragotha would have still rolled a low initiative as he did in the combat, and more solars would have gotten him with thier mass heals. The change of venue to the spire was more like a poetic justice..since it is where Kyuss first ascended (and then descended) into demigod hood, and one I, and our DM thought was worth it. I do understand your points, and again, will state I do think you are right, he aughta gotten the save and SR.