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Hey guys, it's late at night so I'm going to make this question short and sweet. In "The Demonskar Legacy" what prevents a party from simply scrying Alek Tercival and then teleporting to him after they observe his location? Did I read past something that prevents this? I can't see how there could be anything blocking either spell since the end of the adventure has the baddies doing just that.
And to stave off anyone saying that a level 8 party is not capable of doing this, they very much can and I've seen it happen already once with my game. I can easily see the party just doing this and skipping the entire cool adventure.
I can't really think of something that would prevent this tactic either. To complicate the scrying you could have Alek still be in the starry mirror maze when the PCs scry him, unable to find his way out as yet (which would be an even better explanation for his insanity). This extra-dimensional maze adds +5 to his will save, as does the fact that the PCs don't know him personally (seconhand knowledge adds another +5). This will give him a +13 will save vs. the scrying attempt.
If the PCs are able to scry him anyhow in the maze, they won't be able to teleport there (extra-dimensional!). So they will still have to complete the adventure. By the time the PCs get there, Alek has found his way out.
Hey guys, it's late at night so I'm going to make this question short and sweet. In "The Demonskar Legacy" what prevents a party from simply scrying Alek Tercival and then teleporting to him after they observe his location? Did I read past something that prevents this? I can't see how there could be anything blocking either spell since the end of the adventure has the baddies doing just that.
And to stave off anyone saying that a level 8 party is not capable of doing this, they very much can and I've seen it happen already once with my game. I can easily see the party just doing this and skipping the entire cool adventure.
Hope you slept well?
The solution to your problem is very easy: teleport range is 100 miles/level; thus make Alec's location further away than the caster may reach. Also remember he can take only a limited number of persons with him.
Alec could also make his will save against scrying, but considering his condition this scenario would be unlikely. Another possibility is that Alec is still in the maze when they scry upon him.
Peter
While my party has not reached this point yet, they are finishing up Flood Season right now, I'd say the idea he is still in the mirror is a good solution.
I hadn't thought of my party doing this but they might think of it. The sorcerer keeps pulling weird spells out of the PHB and putting them to use in novel ways so I wouldn't put it past her to think of this when no one else does. Of course, the use of scry and teleport are not really out there anyway.
if this comes up in my game I will use the Sir Alek is still in the mirror excuse. The party is already very familiar with Sir Alek and the paladin will likely be married to him by the time he sets out for the Demonskar. I want his death to be really memorable but I'll need to make sure its not possible to bring him back.
Still in the mirror is exactly what I did in my campaign when this was tried.
That said, the mirror area was probably the most hated area in the campaign to date for my group.
Sean Mahoney
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I actually like the idea of him being too far away for a telepot to reach him and I think I'll go with that answer. It actually makes sense that the desert would be oceans away from the jungles of Cauldron. The idea of him still being in the mirror doesn't work for me because I like the fact that he has been clawing at the iron door for weeks.
Personally, I just don't allow Scrying to count as familiarity for purposes of teleporting. But that's just a house rule.
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Personally, I just don't allow Scrying to count as familiarity for purposes of teleporting. But that's just a house rule.
Unfortunately, in this case that house-rule would not make a whole lot of sense, since the final battle of the chapter literally occurs because Alek is being scryed and then then demons teleport in.
Personally, I just don't allow Scrying to count as familiarity for purposes of teleporting. But that's just a house rule.Unfortunately, in this case that house-rule would not make a whole lot of sense, since the final battle of the chapter literally occurs because Alek is being scryed and then then demons teleport in.
I guess in my game I'll have Mr. N teleport to the Starry Mirror and then follow the PCs through it normally.
I hate "scry 'n' die". :-)
Given that Teleport would not be available to characters until 9th level, and that this adventure is for 8th-9th level characters (with them finishing the adventure around 10th), why would a DM stop innovative play? Let the characters teleport in if they can succeed at making the scry and teleport, and make sure that N (or his Hezrou lieutenant if you are running the Siege of Redgorge) teleport in before the party can get out.
Yes they miss a lot of "stuff" but none of that stuff is critical to the adventure as a whole. If the characters can cast teleport multiple times before they even arrive at the Demonskar, skipping the area with the Sisters is fine and will put them back "on track" with regards to XP. At the same time, with Nab dead, the Sisters will be able to start taking over the leadership of the Babau, and allow for more innovative attack possibilities. The consequences of the party's actions will be allowing the Sisters to survive and haunt them later.
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Section8, I'm not actually attempting to stop innovative play on their part, I actually encourage it when I can. Part of my reasoning in starting this thread was just to see if this was a flaw in the adventure or if the authors had considered it and I just wasn't seeing how. As it turns out, the simplest solution is that Alek is just too far away. This is supported by the module, which tells us that the wasteland is very far from the jungles of Cauldron.
I don't support the idea of having Alek still be in the mirror. That does seem like a railroad into the adventure, especially since Alek's insanity comes from him being stuck in the dark room for weeks.
It actually is possible for a party at the right level to be able to cast teleport. I'm not going to describe the exact mechanics here because it could take a while, but it does use a lot of gold, XP, and other party resources to make scrolls which they can make caster level checks to use.
I feel the Demonskar Adventure is important for a number of reasons. Over the course of the game I've been mentioning the Skar on a off for quite a while. Some PCs have even started taking Demon-hunting traits in preparation for what they think is going to be an invasion of Cauldron. This adventure (and the later Siege at Redgorge) is for them. It also introduces the "alien" spellweavers and shows the party it's firt complete Soul Cage.
I'm not actually attempting to stop innovative play on their part, I actually encourage it when I can.
I'm glad, as I have experienced a number of "bad DMs" that railroad their players through the adventure and don't allow for thought. I now see that this is more of a mental exercise, and not an attempt to stop the players.
As it turns out, the simplest solution is that Alek is just too far away. This is supported by the module, which tells us that the wasteland is very far from the jungles of Cauldron.
Based on the adventure, Alek is 500 miles north of Cauldron, well within range of a Teleport.
I don't support the idea of having Alek still be in the mirror. That does seem like a railroad into the adventure, especially since Alek's insanity comes from him being stuck in the dark room for weeks.
It is also possible that Alek was driven insane by going from colored room to colored room in the Starry Mirror, with no way out. It would seem to be a prison, and given that he believed he was directed there by angels, he started to believe he wasn't worthy. I agree that it does seem like a railroad though. My only other concern regarding your statement is the timing. Has it been weeks since the riot? Alek would have been around a week before the riot, as he signed the challenge to Terseon. After a week with no answer from the Mayor, the riot is held. From there, the group is handed the mission to find Alek. How could Alek be locked away for weeks if he only left to refresh the Amaranth a week or so ago?
I feel the Demonskar Adventure is important for a number of reasons. Over the course of the game I've been mentioning the Skar on a off for quite a while. Some PCs have even started taking Demon-hunting traits in preparation for what they think is going to be an invasion of Cauldron. This adventure (and the later Siege at Redgorge) is for them. It also introduces the "alien" spellweavers and shows the party it's first complete Soul Cage.
While I agree that the Demonskar adventure is important for these reasons, it does not preclude them going to the Demonskar. They can go to the Demonskar whenever they want. Finding Alek is an immediate goal. You could have them teleport to Alek, fight a demon, do the Siege of Redgorge, and then have them go through Vaprak's Voice after as they pursue the dregs of Nab's army. The key is that the group is not railroaded into following Kaurophon to Occipitus after the fight at the Vault in the desert.
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Section8, I clearly need to re-read the module again since I apparently missed some details...
For some reason I pictured the desert as being really far away, when it actually wasn't. I actually am placing the desert in an area known as the Sea of Dust which is literally on a different continent than Cauldron, so when it was suggested that the distance be too far away for a teleport my mind immediately grabbed that as being an obvious solution. It's ultimately going to be the solution I stay with since it doesn't require me to actually change my campaign to be realistic (the mirror always came out in the Sea of Dust, so he was always too far away to simply 'port to).
It also seems like my timeline was a bit off. I guess Alek went crazy a lot faster than I pictured it possible. Oh well, thanks for pointing out my errors.
I agree that any and all chapters should be skippable in order to have a good campaign, and thats what I really love about Shackled City. Since the plot is essentially driven by the bad guys doing stuff, the campaign still moves forward even if the PCs don't stick to the plan. This really makes it different from AoW or STAP since those actually require the PCs to do the bad-guy's work every so often.
As for how far I'm willing to go to not railroad my party, go check out any threads I've posted in that mention the Smoking Eye or Kaurophon. I've gone to great lengths to make my players pursue Occipitus and Kaurophon on their own, and he will not be showing up at the end of this Chapter. The PCs need to find him on their own and if they take too long, the Siege of Redgorge might just occur without them!
For some reason I pictured the desert as being really far away, when it actually wasn't. I actually am placing the desert in an area known as the Sea of Dust which is literally on a different continent than Cauldron, so when it was suggested that the distance be too far away for a teleport my mind immediately grabbed that as being an obvious solution.
I am also playing it in Greyhawk, and placed Cauldron in the Amedio jungle right next to the mountains and the Sea of Dust. If you have placed it on a separate continent, then I understand why I'm seeing things differently.
This really makes it different from AoW or STAP since those actually require the PCs to do the bad-guy's work every so often.
I haven't read those Adventure Paths as of yet so I can't comment. The stuff I like is when the "bad guys" can pursue their objectives regardless of the characters involvement. The idea I like is shown with regards to Zenith. If they found him, great. If not, the plot will proceed with someone else filling the required place. It just is more meaningful if it was Zenith.
As for how far I'm willing to go to not railroad my party, go check out any threads I've posted in that mention the Smoking Eye or Kaurophon. I've gone to great lengths to make my players pursue Occipitus and Kaurophon on their own, and he will not be showing up at the end of this Chapter. The PCs need to find him on their own and if they take too long, the Siege of Redgorge might just occur without them!
My apologies if I seemed to imply that you railroaded your group. I have also taken steps to allow the group to find their own way to Occipitus. In my case, if the group doesn't find their way, they will move up to assassination attempts and starting SotSP, as we have already completed the Seige of Redgorge.