After playing and running several 4E sessions I have a few questions I hope the collective wisdom of the Paizo boards might answer. And I really would like to see some threads where we talk about playing 4E rather than the merits of the system (or lack thereof). Without further preamble:
(1) During the start of one's turn, is there a fixed order in which ongoing effects must be applied? For example, if I have 2 hit points, have regeneration 5, and am taking 5 ongoing fire damage, must I take the damage before I can regenerate?
(2) Is there a rule that determines the correct resolution order for multiple readied actions that key off of the same event? My initial though was simply to use init modifier or roll off, but upon further reflection that isn't a good solution. Once player A readies based on the occurrence of event E, player B could then simply ready based on player A taking his readied action (in effect interrupting the interrupt) rather than on event E. Therefore, the RAW currently favor whomever readies last, which will then result in both parties attempting to delay until the other goes and readies an action, and one is presented with essentially the same problem (who gets to come out of delay first?). Thoughts?
(3) The Cleric prayer Astral Storm (at least, I think that is what it is called) seems to be JUST BETTER(tm) than the Wizard spell Meteor Swarm. Am I missing something?
(4) Can't remember #4, but if it comes to me I'll drop back in.
:)
Thanks!
#1: You apply them at the same time and suffer whatever the net effect is.
#3: Its a well known fact that cleric powers are just better then every one elses. This is because I am playing a cleric and I want it to be so.
Anyway your right - its clearly and obvously better. All the level 29 wizard powers are not really that great so far as I can tell after a 30 second glance at them. Possibly thats intentional. If its not intentional then we can expect to see some better balanced Level 29 Wizard powers come out in future splat books.
I only know the answer for #1:
You apply them at the same time and suffer whatever the net effect is.
Gotcha. Just to make sure I understand, isn't that functionally equivalent to applying the regeneration first?
Gotcha. Just to make sure I understand, isn't that functionally equivalent to applying the regeneration first?I only know the answer for #1:
You apply them at the same time and suffer whatever the net effect is.
I suppose it is. I think the real purpose is to get around trying to make specific rules for what happens when you pass some kind of threshold, like dropping below 0 hps or becoming bloodied (especially when that triggers something as is often the case with monsters) and then immediately jump back above that threshold.
Essentially the idea that ones hps jump up and then down or vice versa at the start of a turn would introduce some serous wrinkles in the rules. By simply going with the net effect one gets around that.
(2) Is there a rule that determines the correct resolution order for multiple readied actions that key off of the same event? My initial though was simply to use init modifier or roll off, but upon further reflection that isn't a good solution. Once player A readies based on the occurrence of event E, player B could then simply ready based on player A taking his readied action (in effect interrupting the interrupt) rather than on event E. Therefore, the RAW currently favor whomever readies last, which will then result in both parties attempting to delay until the other goes and readies an action, and one is presented with essentially the same problem (who gets to come out of delay first?). Thoughts?
Not quite -- In 4E, Ready is a reaction, not an interrupt. If Be keyed on A, B would go after A, who goes after E. If both A and B keyed directly on E, I would imagine A (with the higher initiative) would go first.
(4) Can't remember #4, but if it comes to me I'll drop back in.
19.
Gotcha. Just to make sure I understand, isn't that functionally equivalent to applying the regeneration first?I only know the answer for #1:
You apply them at the same time and suffer whatever the net effect is.
I suppose it is. I think the real purpose is to get around trying to make specific rules for what happens when you pass some kind of threshold, like dropping below 0 hps or becoming bloodied (especially when that triggers something as is often the case with monsters) and then immediately jump back above that threshold.
Essentially the idea that ones hps jump up and then down or vice versa at the start of a turn would introduce some serous wrinkles in the rules. By simply going with the net effect one gets around that.
Gotcha; that makes sense. Thanks for the clarification.
(2) Is there a rule that determines the correct resolution order for multiple readied actions that key off of the same event? My initial though was simply to use init modifier or roll off, but upon further reflection that isn't a good solution. Once player A readies based on the occurrence of event E, player B could then simply ready based on player A taking his readied action (in effect interrupting the interrupt) rather than on event E. Therefore, the RAW currently favor whomever readies last, which will then result in both parties attempting to delay until the other goes and readies an action, and one is presented with essentially the same problem (who gets to come out of delay first?). Thoughts?Not quite -- In 4E, Ready is a reaction, not an interrupt. If Be keyed on A, B would go after A, who goes after E. If both A and B keyed directly on E, I would imagine A (with the higher initiative) would go first.
(4) Can't remember #4, but if it comes to me I'll drop back in.19.
I guess I'm mixing in some 3.5E-style readying there...thanks. Though I am now fuzzy on the advantage of readying vs. delaying if they are both reactions. I think I need to re-read the appropriate sections in the PHB.
Not quite -- In 4E, Ready is a reaction, not an interrupt. If Be keyed on A, B would go after A, who goes after E. If both A and B keyed directly on E, I would imagine A (with the higher initiative) would go first.
I guess I'm mixing in some 3.5E-style readying there...thanks. Though I am now fuzzy on the advantage of readying vs. delaying if they are both reactions. I think I need to re-read the appropriate sections in the PHB.
The distinction is that a ready can come between someone else's actions, instead of at the end of their turn.
The example the PH gives is that, if you anticipate an opponent moving up to you and hitting you, you can ready an action triggered by the *move* -- thus, it is still a "reaction." It does not interrupt or prevent the move, but does go off before the opponent's attack.
Then the attack is resolved, and your place in the the initiative sequence is reset to just after that opponent's turn.
The distinction is that a ready can come between someone else's actions, instead of at the end of their turn.
The example the PH gives is that, if you anticipate an opponent moving up to you and hitting you, you can ready an action triggered by the *move* -- thus, it is still a "reaction." It does not interrupt or prevent the move, but does go off before the opponent's attack.
Then the attack is resolved, and your place in the the initiative sequence is reset to just after that opponent's turn.
Correction -- I just re-read that section, and the new initiative is just before the trigger.
(3) The Cleric prayer Astral Storm (at least, I think that is what it is called) seems to be JUST BETTER(tm) than the Wizard spell Meteor Swarm. Am I missing something?
It seems better, at a glance, because many people like to compare to elements in a vacuum. Since neither power has been subjected to errata, my thinking was that there was obviously something people werent taking into account.
Astral storm deals 33 damage on average without accounting for stuff like ability modifiers or implements. Since both the cleric and wizard are likely to have the same modifier, I'm not going to take that into consideration.
You can sustain the power as a minor action to have it deal an average of 11 points of damage to everything in the zone. Now, you cannot move the zone, so creatures need to move out of it. How difficult this is depends on a LOT of factors: the DM planning the adventure, dungeon style, layout, type of monster, etc. It could be very difficult if you're using it in a room with one exit, or incredibly easy if its in an open area.
Meteor swarm deals 28 damage on average. Same size, but no zone.
On the surface, side-by-side, sure: astral storm has a lot going on. However, there are other things to take into consideration, such as...
A wizard can use a wand to boost his attack roll even further, which helps actually land his attack.
Assuming +6 implements, the wizard can easily get a staff of fiery might. This would allow the wizard to reroll up to six damage dice from his spell. This only works on wizard powers, since clerics cannot use staff implements.
Arcane Mastery is an epic tier feat that lets a wizard regain a spell by spending an action point.
Spell Accuracy is another epic feat that lets you omit squares from an attack, something that clerics cannot do.
The paragon path spellstorm mage lets you regain a daily attack once per day (Storm Spell, gained at 11th level). Since it specifies spells, clerics cannot multiclass into it to do this.
The archmage epic destiny lets you use a daily spell twice per day at 21st-level, and then lets you change a daily spell into an encounter spell at 30th-level. Shape Magic, gained at 26th level, lets you regain any spell you want as a daily utility.
These are all specific to wizards, so clerics dont really have the ability to regain a lot of their spend powers.
(3) The Cleric prayer Astral Storm (at least, I think that is what it is called) seems to be JUST BETTER(tm) than the Wizard spell Meteor Swarm. Am I missing something?It seems better, at a glance, because many people like to compare to elements in a vacuum. Since neither power has been subjected to errata, my thinking was that there was obviously something people werent taking into account.
Astral storm deals 33 damage on average without accounting for stuff like ability modifiers or implements. Since both the cleric and wizard are likely to have the same modifier, I'm not going to take that into consideration.
You can sustain the power as a minor action to have it deal an average of 11 points of damage to everything in the zone. Now, you cannot move the zone, so creatures need to move out of it. How difficult this is depends on a LOT of factors: the DM planning the adventure, dungeon style, layout, type of monster, etc. It could be very difficult if you're using it in a room with one exit, or incredibly easy if its in an open area.Meteor swarm deals 28 damage on average. Same size, but no zone.
On the surface, side-by-side, sure: astral storm has a lot going on. However, there are other things to take into consideration, such as...
A wizard can use a wand to boost his attack roll even further, which helps actually land his attack.
Assuming +6 implements, the wizard can easily get a staff of fiery might. This would allow the wizard to reroll up to six damage dice from his spell. This only works on wizard powers, since clerics cannot use staff implements.
Arcane Mastery is an epic tier feat that lets a wizard regain a spell by spending an action point.
Spell Accuracy is another epic feat that lets you omit squares from an attack, something that clerics cannot do.The paragon path spellstorm mage lets you regain a daily attack once per day (Storm Spell, gained at 11th level). Since it specifies spells, clerics cannot...
Yes, I do see that wizards have advantages that the cleric cannot match. But advantages based on equipment, for example, seem likely to be eroded as the system is expanded. In any case, thank you for the reply...you gave me some new things to think about.
Most of the stuff I mentioned was wizard-only mechanics. The staff of fiery might is something I found while I was making a wizard of every tier trying to see how characters differed.
I dont think that you'll see a lot of gear "erosion". Part of what they are trying to avoid doing is just filing the name off and inserting a new title to create something "new". For example, you could change the staff of fiery might into a frost staff and have it do the same thing. Would this be unbalanced? Probably not.
However, I dont think we're going to see a lot of rehashed stuff like a feat that lets a cleric regain a daily power, or a holy symbol that lets him reroll radiant damage on powers.
(1) During the start of one's turn, is there a fixed order in which ongoing effects must be applied? For example, if I have 2 hit points, have regeneration 5, and am taking 5 ongoing fire damage, must I take the damage before I can regenerate?
Use the initiative modifier. Someone who hasa higher init modifier would be technically faster.