I have a theoretical question...
Does 4th Edition work with the OGL? Since it's totally a new game (and not d20) now souly owned by Hasbro, could another company like PAIZO publish books using their new game system?
Just wondering.
Ultradan
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Does 4th Edition work with the OGL? Since it's totally a new game (and not d20) now souly owned by Hasbro, could another company like PAIZO publish books using their new game system?
No, if you agree to the terms of the 4e license, you agree to give up your ability to use the 3.xe OGL.
They are mutually exclusive. For now.
-Skeld
I have a theoretical question...
Does 4th Edition work with the OGL? Since it's totally a new game (and not d20) now souly owned by Hasbro, could another company like PAIZO publish books using their new game system?
Just wondering.
Ultradan
In short, no.
In long, 4E utilizes a different licensing scheme, called the GSL (Game System License). It's a lot tighter than the OGL, overly so according to some. Currently it is being revised to be more friendly, although we don't know specifically what will change.
More generally, Paizo doesn't currently have any plans on publishing anything for 4E (that they've told us about) so I wouldn't count any support from them in that area.
Cheers! :)
Who needs 4e we have pathfinder! LONG LIVE PATHFINDER!
Does 4th Edition work with the OGL? Since it's totally a new game (and not d20) now souly owned by Hasbro, could another company like PAIZO publish books using their new game system?No, if you agree to the terms of the 4e license, you agree to give up your ability to use the 3.xe OGL.
They are mutually exclusive. For now.
-Skeld
They are currently mutually exclusive for a product line, not for a total company. Just FYI.
Cheers! :)
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They are currently mutually exclusive for a product line, not for a total company. Just FYI.
Six of one, half-a-dozen of the other.
It's a clause to simply force publishers to convert established campaign settings and products lines or be "left behind," so to speak. Also prevents publishers from giving customers the "best of both worlds" with dual-system products (or official conversion notes from one system to the other).
But you are correct. If a publisher is will to spin off an entirely new product line to supprt 4e (or continue 3.5e), they can do so.
-Skeld
I was thinking that Hasbro would make up a whole new game JUST to have all the rights for themselves...
Thinking that everyone would blindly 'upgrade' to 4th edition when, in fact, they'd be converting folks to a whole new game. Leaving d20 OGL companies and products behind.
Maybe I'm thinking too much.
Ultradan
Of course it should be noted that any copyright holder is well within legal and moral rights to determine how much of that copyright other companies can have access to, for free or for a charge.
But yeah, the GSL gives WOTC more control. I imagine they felt they didn't make enough of a share in the overall market for the line.
Of course it should be noted that any copyright holder is well within legal and moral rights to determine how much of that copyright other companies can have access to, for free or for a charge.
But yeah, the GSL gives WOTC more control. I imagine they felt they didn't make enough of a share in the overall market for the line.
I'm sure you're right, and already we see they are beginning to rue that kind of thinking.
I personally think, whatever your views pro or against 4e itself, whoever was behind the decisions that led to such a one sided GSL agreement has done drastic damage to WotC. Losing all the major tpps hasn't just lost them the support for the 4e system that the tpps pumping out quality 4e product would have generated, it's created very real competitors.
If I was in charge down there the heads behind that GSL would be rolling about now.
Interestingly btw, one of my friends is an ex-Corporate lawyer and he was saying that the GSL would not wash here in the UK due to it's harshness, apparently there's a recent law/ruling that specifically targets unfair contracts. (Can't remember what it's called, I'll find out.)
Losing all the major tpps hasn't just lost them the support for the 4e system that the tpps pumping out quality 4e product would have generated, it's created very real competitors.
That's exactly what clicked in my mind when I read that 4th edition wasn't like anything out there. Now they're stuck with what only THEY come up with. And, to be honest, it isn't quite as good or relevant as what I've been getting from companies like Paizo these last few years. It seemed that WoC just made new books every other month just to boost sales and not to really add anything to the game.
I'm a big fan of adventure modules, and WoC barely had anything good in that department for a real long time. In fact, in my case, I would read an adventure in Dungeon magazine and then maybe buy a book from WoC that complimented the adventure with additionnal rules and monsters for that environment.
Now, with their 'new game', I'm afraid they'll just go crazy on the rule books again (remember The Complete Book of... series?) and have very few quality adventure modules. To me, this 4th edition, isn't an upgrade at all, it's just buisness men telling their production department to come up with a way to monopolize the game again. The game didn't really need anything.
So however good it is, I just don't need a new game right now. My 3.5 edition is perfectly fine (for me)... I already have most of the rulebooks and I get all the fine quality adventures I can possibly desire with Paizo.
Sadly, I think WoC just shot themselves in the foot. In changing to a whole new game, they sort of excluded themselves from something that was comming along very good. Will the words D&D survive this decision by Woc? I certainly hope so.
(Just remembering you that these are only MY feelings... I don't think I attacked anyone in my post, lol)
Ultradan
Hmm. Essentially, you guys are arriving to the debate somewhat late, as this has been hashed out pretty thoroughly (wow, Firefox claims thoroughly only has one 'u' ... that looks so weird to me though ...) both here and on other boards (a recent one from ENWorld is located here)
Everyone has different takes (of course) but mine comes down to this. WotC felt that the OGL was a bit too free, and allowed others to use their ruleset in ways they didn't like. I'm thinking of systems like Arcana Unearthed, or World of Warcraft, where you really didn't need to ever get anything from WotC to play those games.
Currently the GSL is being revised, although no one knows how far said revisions will go, just that they are aimed at making it a bit friendlier to 3PPs. In a lot of regards, while the current GSL is fairly bad, I think its badness is a bit overblown. Specifically, it seems it is a bit worse for well established 3PPs (like Paizo, frex) than for others with less invested in 3E IP.
Anyway, there are still a fair number of 3PP who have signed on to the new GSL (there is a thread in the forums here with a list, recent to at least a few days ago) and hopefully the revision will bring a few more along.
Really, considering the GSL doesn't even allow 3PPs to publish anything until October, it's hard to judge its relative success or failure since no one has technically been allowed to even use it yet.
Cheers! :)
Who needs 4e we have pathfinder! LONG LIVE PATHFINDER!
Your award for on-topic, substantive posting is in the mail. Honest.
To the OP: as others have explained, the GSL and the OGL are mutually exclusive. And, as others have also mentioned, the GSL is a slap in the face to other publishers. The only silver lining is that the GSL is being redone; *hopefully* they've figured things out a bit and we get something workable this time. If not, they will have managed to shoot themselves in the foot. I really like 4E, but the GSL is so toxic that I can't in good conscience continue to give WOTC my business, so I'm really hoping the new GSL is more reasonable.
As it turns out it seems like one of the people at WOTC who was pushing for a more open GSL no longer is employed there.
As it turns out it seems like one of the people at WOTC who was pushing for a more open GSL no longer is employed there.
Wow! As Morrus says, that indeed IS a damn shame. Linae was always pretty nice whenever I saw her posts. :(
I can't say I really interacted with her much, but I know she was fighting the good fight for us. She'll be missed.
Not so cheery. :(
As it turns out it seems like one of the people at WOTC who was pushing for a more open GSL no longer is employed there.
Please tell me you're freaking kidding. I'm having trouble opening ENWorld (as per normal). Lidda ain't there anymore?!? She was like the only one that could say anything in the run up to 4E without making the entire community go nuts. She is (was) like my favorite person there.
Please tell me you're freaking kidding. I'm having trouble opening ENWorld (as per normal). Lidda ain't there anymore?!? She was like the only one that could say anything in the run up to 4E without making the entire community go nuts. She is (was) like my favorite person there.
His link led to a post by Morrus essentially saying emails to her Wizard's account bounced back with a message saying she didn't work there anymore. I guess it isn't technically a confirmation, but it doesn't really seem like something likely to be caused by a technical error or an in poor taste prank.
Hmm. Essentially, you guys are arriving to the debate somewhat late, as this has been hashed out pretty thoroughly (wow, Firefox claims thoroughly only has one 'u' ... that looks so weird to me though ...) both here and on other boards (a recent one from ENWorld is located here)
Everyone has different takes (of course) but mine comes down to this. WotC felt that the OGL was a bit too free, and allowed others to use their ruleset in ways they didn't like. I'm thinking of systems like Arcana Unearthed, or World of Warcraft, where you really didn't need to ever get anything from WotC to play those games.
Currently the GSL is being revised, although no one knows how far said revisions will go, just that they are aimed at making it a bit friendlier to 3PPs. In a lot of regards, while the current GSL is fairly bad, I think its badness is a bit overblown. Specifically, it seems it is a bit worse for well established 3PPs (like Paizo, frex) than for others with less invested in 3E IP.
Anyway, there are still a fair number of 3PP who have signed on to the new GSL (there is a thread in the forums here with a list, recent to at least a few days ago) and hopefully the revision will bring a few more along.
Really, considering the GSL doesn't even allow 3PPs to publish anything until October, it's hard to judge its relative success or failure since no one has technically been allowed to even use it yet.
Cheers! :)
Of course we can judge it's success so far, and my verdict is 'it ain't a success', unless WotC wanted to turn allies into rivals. Clearly WotC don't think it much of a success either mind you, or they wouldn't be making noises about changing it to placate the many major tpps that won't sign up to it.
As to tpps that have signed onto the GSL, name two major tpps that have. Only very minor (PDF producing mainly) tpps have signed on as far as I'm aware.
Of course we can judge it's success so far, and my verdict is 'it ain't a success', unless WotC wanted to turn allies into rivals. Clearly WotC don't think it much of a success either mind you, or they wouldn't be making noises about changing it to placate the many major tpps that won't sign up to it.
As to tpps that have signed onto the GSL, name two major tpps that have. Only very minor (PDF producing mainly) tpps have signed on as far as I'm aware.
Grr! Stupid server error! Stop eating my posts!
Goodman and Mongoose have both signed up, and they are fairly sizable. Fiery Dragon Productions is bringing the Sword and Sorcery line to 4E as well.
We had a short list (ENWorld likely has a more comprehensive version) a few days back on the boards ... you can see it here.
Cheers! :)
I have a question, but first some assumptions
Assumption 1) The GSL means that if you publish 4E material you can never again publish 3.5 material.
Assumption 2) The GSL is accepted by, and is therefore enforcable on, companies not individuals.
Assumption 3) A writer can freelance for one company even while employed by a different one.
Question. What if someone (for example Lisa) were to create a company (for example OZAIP) that published 4E material written by "Freelance" writters such as Eric Mona, James Jacobs etc. This could be sold as third party produced material through the Paizo site as WOTC material is. Would this have any legal impact on Paizo?
I dont actually want any 4E stuff since I am a Pathfinder Thrall but I was just curious. Lawyers? Sebastian? Paizo staff?
Elcian
I have a question, but first some assumptions
Assumption 1) The GSL means that if you publish 4E material you can never again publish 3.5 material.
Assumption 2) The GSL is accepted by, and is therefore enforcable on, companies not individuals.
Assumption 3) A writer can freelance for one company even while employed by a different one.
Question. What if someone (for example Lisa) were to create a company (for example OZAIP) that published 4E material written by "Freelance" writters such as Eric Mona, James Jacobs etc. This could be sold as third party produced material through the Paizo site as WOTC material is. Would this have any legal impact on Paizo?
I dont actually want any 4E stuff since I am a Pathfinder Thrall but I was just curious. Lawyers? Sebastian? Paizo staff?
Elcian
IANAL, but your first assumption is wrong. You can't combine OGL and GSL products within one product line, but you can mix them within a company.
As for your idea, I've seen similar ones floated and I believe some of the actual lawyers here essentially said it wouldn't float. If nothing else, I'm pretty sure WotC has to approve a particular company's access to the GSL, so they could just spot that you were trying to circumvent some of the GSL's limitations and just not approve you for using the GSL.
Cheers! :)
Of course we can judge it's success so far, and my verdict is 'it ain't a success', unless WotC wanted to turn allies into rivals. Clearly WotC don't think it much of a success either mind you, or they wouldn't be making noises about changing it to placate the many major tpps that won't sign up to it.
As to tpps that have signed onto the GSL, name two major tpps that have. Only very minor (PDF producing mainly) tpps have signed on as far as I'm aware.
Grr! Stupid server error! Stop eating my posts!
Goodman and Mongoose have both signed up, and they are fairly sizable. Fiery Dragon Productions is bringing the Sword and Sorcery line to 4E as well.
We had a short list (ENWorld likely has a more comprehensive version) a few days back on the boards ... you can see it here.
Cheers! :)
Okay fair point - though personally I'm not keen on either Goodman or Mongoose's product for the most part, they are fair sized that's true.
Never heard of Firey Dragon Productions before.
Question. What if someone ....
Wizard's can revoke the GSL from a company at any time, for no reason at all, so any "what if" discussion is pointless. Even if it was somehow legal, if WotC doesn't like it they pull the license from you and you no longer get to sell that product you put all that time and money into.
Never heard of Firey Dragon Productions before.
To be honest, I had not either. The Sword and Sorcery imprint, however, is something I'm familiar with. It used to belong to White Wolf, and is the name under which Scarred Lands was produced (along with several other games, which I believe White Wolf kept the rights to)
So, I think that means Scarred Lands is going 4E, but I'm not 100% on that ...
Cheers! :)
So, I think that means Scarred Lands is going 4E, but I'm not 100% on that ...Cheers! :)
Don't you know it isn't nice to get nerds excited like that? ;-)
Unfortunately, as far as I know Scarred Lands isn't going anywhere, because the line has been retired for some time. If you have information to the contrary PLEASE let me know; I'd love it if they were bringing it back for 4E.
Don't you know it isn't nice to get nerds excited like that? ;-)
Unfortunately, as far as I know Scarred Lands isn't going anywhere, because the line has been retired for some time. If you have information to the contrary PLEASE let me know; I'd love it if they were bringing it back for 4E.
I like you bugley (you're some kind of bug-thing right? Us bug-things have to stick together ...) so I did some checking. Click here to read about the Scarred Lands fate in 4E; post taken from this thread. Let's just say prepare yourself to be excited. ;)
Cheers! :)
Don't you know it isn't nice to get nerds excited like that? ;-)
Unfortunately, as far as I know Scarred Lands isn't going anywhere, because the line has been retired for some time. If you have information to the contrary PLEASE let me know; I'd love it if they were bringing it back for 4E.
I like you bugley (you're some kind of bug-thing right? Us bug-things have to stick together ...) so I did some checking. Click here to read about the Scarred Lands fate in 4E; post taken from this thread. Let's just say prepare yourself to be excited. ;)
Cheers! :)
*NERDGASM*
Thanks for the info! I don't know how I missed this!
*NERDGASM*
Thanks for the info! I don't know how I missed this!
Eww, now the thread is all sticky. :P
Quite welcome, I like Scarred Lands as well when it was released. I'm interested to see what it will look like this go-through. :)
Cheers! :)