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Hi --
I'm sure is been discussed to some degree, but I would like to see some forum on module improvement (and not just game mechanics). I find that no matter how good (or bad) a game is, its the modules they come out with, which the DM DM's and players play, that sets the tone for the system.
Its easy to say in the rule books, "Wizards are a rare breed, feared by many. The sight of one strikes fear in the hearts of.. etc etc etc", but then when you play a module, there is one in every room. The same goes for magic items. They are supposed to be wondrous, but give too many, and it quickly becomes boring.
My experience with modules in 3.0 have been with the fact that in order to advance, players feel they need to enter combat. There is no incentive for them to do something else. Now, this issue can be relegated to a question of gaming style, but I'll give you an example.
I played RttToEE, a very good module, but very long because of the fact that the mines were largely there to get players from 4th level to 10th level before the REAL stuff began; it was largely a meat grinder. My players, who are quite experienced, played DnD the way its always been played: To advance, you need to kill the bad guys --> Killing a monster = XP. Now, one can make up all kinds of reasons to say "well, if my PCs bluff their way past the bad guys, they should get the XP also". Yes, you can do that, just because someone had one good roll, or someone dumped everything into Diplomacy, would you just give them 5000 XP because the area had 30 guards, 1 dragon, and 2 trolls -- and they got a successful bluff attempt on a low level guard? You could, but it would seem dodgy.
What you really want is a module that rewards ideas and not just combat. So in effect, the module would give story awards based on how the PCs got by a certain obstacle. Bonus XPs based on the fact that they risked their neck to free prisoners even if they were not asked to explicitly. So, lets say the PCs had to get into the Black Lords castle; possible options are:
- The PCs fought their way in: 3000 XP
- The PCs disguised themselves and got in: 3500 XP
- The PCs magically transported themselves in: 2500 XP.
- The PCs dug a tunnel under the wall: 4000 XP
- Some other innovative way: 3750 XP.
- If the PCs gave the prisoners at the entrance food ans water: + 500 XP
- If the PCs rescued the prisoners at the entrance: + 1000 XP
What this does is create incentive for PCs think of ways alternate to just pulling out a sword to overcome an obstacle. This of course, is a 'cultural' thing. Players must know that modules (from now on) reward ideas and not just combat (which is always the default).
Overall, this has a two-fold effect on the game:
1) It simplifies the need to calculate XP on a per encounter per creature basis since the module designer did the math already. In effect, the module is broken into a series of 'encounters', each with own 'self contained' experience point value.
2) It creates for a system where PCs can advance without it being solely combat based. It behaviorally changes the way in which DnD is perceived.
Now, if in the example above, the PCs talked their way past the guards, got the 3000 XP, then had to fight them all after trying to escape with the Black Lord's daughter, they would not double dip; so some management must still be done by the DM.
The focus of this has been mostly around XPs, but I'm sure there are other aspects of modules that can be 'fixed'.
Thanks
I'm not sure I see what you are trying to accomplish. For the most part a module designer picks challenges they feel are appropriate for characters of the level the module is designed for. Most times this involves monster challenges that come with xp for defeating them (some modules give completion xp and things like that). What you don't like is that it feels "dodgey" to you to give the players xp for bypassing a challenge without killing it. I think it's unlikely to be abale to list every possible way to avoid an excounter and give xp for it. And in the end is it really that much different than just giving them the xp for killing it? Modules are made to be as universal as possible so it saves a DM a lot of work without making them turn their brain off. It's up to the DM to adjust the xp if the players bypass something with a less than inovative idea. Teleporting past a room with a dangerous monster is not very tricky so maybe 50% of the monsters xp. Overall it shouldn't really matter, if the players are having a good time finding ways to avoid combat, why shouldn't they advance? Granted I'm a person that doesn't use xp for leveling anymore so everything I said could be bogus. ;)
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To answer the first question posed, my 'complaint' is for modules in general; however, there are modules that do indeed give story awards at the end. But those awards are often a token amount in comparison to the XP gained from killing monsters. I haven't read any Paizo modules, so I can't comment.
Its interesting to hear that some of you have already abandoned the "kill-monster = XP" way of doing things.
I suppose my 'complaint' originates from the fact that if you take module like RttToEE, the Mines were designed as a meat grinder just to advance the PCs. I believe the author of the module admitted to that. The average WoTC promoted value of 13.33 fights of equal CR to advance; meaning you would have to kill 130 monsters to get to 10th level. That's a LOT of fighting ... people play DnD for fighting, but 130 times...
The issue I have with the DM simply deciding when to advance is that its the module designer (if he uses 13.3 encounters as the basis for advancement), who sets the pace of the module. Presumably, the module was tested with some sort of numbers in mind saying "Ok, the PCs start the module at 10th level.. and based on the CR of all creatures killed, they should be 13th when they go to this room". I suppose as a DM I could just eyeball it. But it just feels better if its by design, i.e. that someone took time to say, "ok... you should be about 12th level here"...
And its true, I do feel a bit weird about saying "ok, the PCs rolled a 20 on the Diplomacy check, so they got past the 1st 'Boss' bad guy'" and then hand them 4000XP for a single roll. I don't' know... it just erks me.
The other issue (and its something that Pathfinder has fixed to a certain degree), is that in the past, if you died and were raised, or a specter hit you, you got drained levels. So the only way to advance was to try to get more XP than your friends for a certain degree of time. If you level everyone up at the same time, what do you with the people who 'got lagged'? Do you just boost him up 2 levels i.s.o one? Does he just keep lagging for the rest of the module? Maybe its a minor issue.. admittedly, I haven't gien it much thought, but these are quick examples I came up with.
1st Ed DnD used to have XP for using one abilities. So a thief unlocking a chest would get XP. Of course, it was a token value. One would have to pick 50,000 locks to get to 10th level. Magic-Users used to get 50XP per spell level of a spell being cast. This was in the core rules. All I'm trying to say is that I'd like to see modules that explicitly take the shift of XP accumulation away from just combat, and award it for milestones achieved; regardless of how those milestones are achieved.
We often talk about improving the game rules, but I find we rarely talk about those things (ie: modules) that actually make us execute all those rules. Modules are just as important (to me at least), as the rules themselves. It would be nice to see discussion on how improvements to modules themselves could help improve the game overall. XP for milestones (i.s.o. combat) is but one (small) aspect that I believe could simplify and improve the gaming experience for us all.
Thanks
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It led to a lot of B.S., like spellcaster spelling-out each evening simply for the XP, rogues pick-pocketing party members "for practice" and then returning items afterwards. I never awarded XP for this stuff. It was tedious and time-consuming to track, and sessions became about the ancillary XP more than the plot.
Perhaps in your experience. In my groups, it was never abused. Doing trivial things like trying to rob your buddy has not even an issue. As for emptying out your spells before sleeping, you needed a valid reason to use the spell; not just some off the cuff whim. Our DM was not easily fooled, nor did we even attempt such ridiculous notions. And it took but 2 seconds to put a tick-mark on my XP sheet next to the spell level I cast...
I've got to say, I really don't know what modules you've been reading, because in my experience most modules, and particularly most Dungeon Magazine adventures have been doing this very thing for a decade or more.
I don't read Dungeon.
- All 3rd Ed WoTC modules.
- As far I saw, all Goodman games modules (there are what?, about 40?)
- The Freeport series (at least the first batch)
I'd say that is a decent representative chuck.
I guess I've just VERY unlucky in my choices...