Well thanks for all the feedback. These forums are kinda fun, I can now see what I have been missing. Great response to my post zombie, thanks.I completely agree with your statements.
I strongly suspect that any company that has so large a part of it's previously (relatively) content and bidable customer base stating openly online they will no longer be buying any product from that company is in trouble.
Yes, it's hard to put true figures to online comment, but I used to work for a company that started getting similarly massive (relatively speaking) anti-comments on the net and within a year they had gone out of business. And I have to admit 'we' kinda deserved it. If you piss off your customers (in the case I reference due to poor product - rather than any of my work) then don't be surprised when your future sales go down.
Hey, as I say, at the moment we can't know the future, but I for one doubt the future success of WotC. Personal opinion of course.
If in 2 years 4e is doing swimmingly feel free to remind me of this post you 4e fans. :-)
I strongly suspect that any company that has so large a part of it's previously (relatively) content and bidable customer base stating openly online they will no longer be buying any product from that company is in trouble.
One or two hundred angry, extremely vocal posters out of an estimated 2 million does not even register on the richter scale.
By the way, a significant portion of the "I'm never buying anything from WotC again!" crowd won't follow through. The stinging pain they feel they've been dealt by having their hobby changed will wear off and they'll start realizing that they are actually capable of enjoying 4th Edition. Same thing happened with 3rd Edition and 3.5.
|
I strongly suspect that any company that has so large a part of it's previously (relatively) content and bidable customer base stating openly online they will no longer be buying any product from that company is in trouble.One or two hundred angry, extremely vocal posters out of an estimated 2 million does not even register on the richter scale.
By the way, a significant portion of the "I'm never buying anything from WotC again!" crowd won't follow through. The stinging pain they feel they've been dealt by having their hobby changed will wear off and they'll start realizing that they are actually capable of enjoying 4th Edition. Same thing happened with 3rd Edition and 3.5.
Scott,
Will you please stop saying this (Emphasis mine)? Even if you sincerely believe it, it really, really pisses people who aren't migrating off. You are basically saying that not only are we wrong but we'll 'come around'. In short, it makes you sound like an arrogant tit, which I assume you're not. And that really destroys your credibility.
I strongly suspect that any company that has so large a part of it's previously (relatively) content and bidable customer base stating openly online they will no longer be buying any product from that company is in trouble.One or two hundred angry, extremely vocal posters out of an estimated 2 million does not even register on the richter scale.
By the way, a significant portion of the "I'm never buying anything from WotC again!" crowd won't follow through. The stinging pain they feel they've been dealt by having their hobby changed will wear off and they'll start realizing that they are actually capable of enjoying 4th Edition. Same thing happened with 3rd Edition and 3.5.
Scott,
Will you please stop saying this (Emphasis mine)? Even if you sincerely believe it, it really, really pisses people who aren't migrating off. You are basically saying that not only are we wrong but we'll 'come around'. In short, it makes you sound like an arrogant tit, which I assume you're not. And that really destroys your credibility.
Yeah! I mean some of those will be, but will they be significant? Will they be able to enjoy it? No, they will not be significant and they will not enjoy it! So stop saying they will! They will hate every moment of their game playing![/snark]
|
I noticed they put up the ENie awards on their home sight. Heaps of starwars stuff. Nothing from D&D. Ultimateley, I'm thinking the D&D aspect of the company may have taken a hit somewhat, but they're already adjusting to public opinion to some extent (GSL, shift in content focus in the second AP module and all), however other branches of their franchise are doing just fine apparently.
I still like their miniatures (despite the random allocation). I just can't seem to get enough of that plastic joy :)
|
|
Yeah! I mean some of those will be, but will they be significant? Will they be able to enjoy it? No, they will not be significant and they will not enjoy it! So stop saying they will! They will hate every moment of their game playing![/snark]I strongly suspect that any company that has so large a part of it's previously (relatively) content and bidable customer base stating openly online they will no longer be buying any product from that company is in trouble.One or two hundred angry, extremely vocal posters out of an estimated 2 million does not even register on the richter scale.
By the way, a significant portion of the "I'm never buying anything from WotC again!" crowd won't follow through. The stinging pain they feel they've been dealt by having their hobby changed will wear off and they'll start realizing that they are actually capable of enjoying 4th Edition. Same thing happened with 3rd Edition and 3.5.
Scott,
Will you please stop saying this (Emphasis mine)? Even if you sincerely believe it, it really, really pisses people who aren't migrating off. You are basically saying that not only are we wrong but we'll 'come around'. In short, it makes you sound like an arrogant tit, which I assume you're not. And that really destroys your credibility.
Oh, please. It's the equivalent of saying that people who like 4E will eventually grow up and realise it's just WoW with the serial numbers filed off on paper and come back to the real game. It doesn't help matters at all and contributes nothing but firewood to the discussion.
And if they had no clue on how to make a game...then why are they doing so well at the ENnies?
This is not to insinuate that the Pathfinder folks can't design games, but if one is to judge by the ENnies as you suggest, they seem better at supplements. The awards for Best d20 Product, Best New Game and Best Rules went to WotC for Star Wars SE.
Oh, please. It's the equivalent of saying that a significant portion of the people who like 4E will eventually grow up and realise it's just WoW with the serial numbers filed off on paper and come back to the real game. It doesn't help matters at all and contributes nothing but firewood to the discussion.
There, fixed it for you.
Past experience with edition changes (1e->2e, 2e-3e, 3e->3.5e) shows that after an initial period of vocal outrage, most people end up playing the new edition - while a smaller number do not.
Almost certainly, the core release of 4E has been amongst the most successful core releases ever, although, i am unaware of any press releases declaring they have reached 2nd or 3rd print runs(this does not mean they haven't ) reached such milestones, i just don't think they have gone so far as to issue press releases on it.
http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/12654.html
This link is just the first of many results from Google. The core 4E set sold out by preorder alone.
I strongly suspect that any company that has so large a part of it's previously (relatively) content and bidable customer base stating openly online they will no longer be buying any product from that company is in trouble.One or two hundred angry, extremely vocal posters out of an estimated 2 million does not even register on the richter scale.
By the way, a significant portion of the "I'm never buying anything from WotC again!" crowd won't follow through. The stinging pain they feel they've been dealt by having their hobby changed will wear off and they'll start realizing that they are actually capable of enjoying 4th Edition. Same thing happened with 3rd Edition and 3.5.
Scott,
Will you please stop saying this (Emphasis mine)? Even if you sincerely believe it, it really, really pisses people who aren't migrating off. You are basically saying that not only are we wrong but we'll 'come around'. In short, it makes you sound like an arrogant tit, which I assume you're not. And that really destroys your credibility.
Seriously. And I mean this going both ways.
I looked forward to 3.0 when it came out and I embraced it wholeheartedly, just like a lot of people here have done for 4E.
I have not embraced 4E. I actually LIKE 3E / 3.5 and have no intention of switching over and I get annoyed when someone calls me a liar. I purchased the 4E gift set, I've run a game in 4E and while there are things that I like about it, it's not a game I'm interested in supporting or playing. So no, I'm fine with the game I'm playing now or it's variants and I'm not feeling any pain about my hobby changing and I don't think that I'll enjoy 4E as much as I enjoy my present game of choice.
So please stop with the derision already and that goes for the attacks going the other way as well. 4E doesn't suck and anyone playing it isn't less intelligent that those who play 3E. That's possibly that single dumbest thing I've heard in this edition war. It's like saying HERO gamers area smarter than M&M players because of the math involved in creating a HERO character.
Big 'ol bag of DUMB.
Play what you like. If anyone gets in your face about it they can get f$%@ed.
This link is just the first of many results from Google. The core 4E set sold out by preorder alone.
A more interesting question is: with increased availability of preorder options and online marketing and shopping, are the sales of new D&D editions (and other RPG products) merely getting compressed into an ever-smaller window?
I remember that it took me almost a month to get my hands on a 2nd edition PHB - and I was hunting for one rather hard. This time, I got 4 of 'em (mine, wife's, and 2 gifts) in the first day after release.
It could be simply like the blockbusterization of movie sales: sell lots in the first weekend, and drop off precipitously a couple days after that.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32
|
Er, that could be because the Enies, like most awards, focus on material that came out the YEAR before.
Indeed, fully expect to see 4e as an Ennies contender next year. As to whether it wins anything or not, there will have been a year of play then to see how it holds up in the long term.
I strongly suspect that any company that has so large a part of it's previously (relatively) content and bidable customer base stating openly online they will no longer be buying any product from that company is in trouble.One or two hundred angry, extremely vocal posters out of an estimated 2 million does not even register on the richter scale.
By the way, a significant portion of the "I'm never buying anything from WotC again!" crowd won't follow through. The stinging pain they feel they've been dealt by having their hobby changed will wear off and they'll start realizing that they are actually capable of enjoying 4th Edition. Same thing happened with 3rd Edition and 3.5.
Scott,
Will you please stop saying this (Emphasis mine)? Even if you sincerely believe it, it really, really pisses people who aren't migrating off. You are basically saying that not only are we wrong but we'll 'come around'. In short, it makes you sound like an arrogant tit, which I assume you're not. And that really destroys your credibility.
No, I'm not going to stop saying it. It wasn't directed at anyone in particular, and absolutely was not a blanket statement. And it is true, at least historically (which should leave little doubt that it will continue to hold true, given the acclaim 4th Edition has received). If you want to be offended by it, go ahead - I can't stop you. I wasn't saying that you're wrong, and I'm not saying that you'll come around. I said that a significant number of 4th Edition detractors will come around. I understand that you're sensitive to this sort of thing. In this case, however, you are simply too sensitive.
Oh, please. It's the equivalent of saying that people who like 4E will eventually grow up and realise it's just WoW with the serial numbers filed off on paper and come back to the real game. It doesn't help matters at all and contributes nothing but firewood to the discussion.Yeah! I mean some of those will be, but will they be significant? Will they be able to enjoy it? No, they will not be significant and they will not enjoy it! So stop saying they will! They will hate every moment of their game playing![/snark]I strongly suspect that any company that has so large a part of it's previously (relatively) content and bidable customer base stating openly online they will no longer be buying any product from that company is in trouble.One or two hundred angry, extremely vocal posters out of an estimated 2 million does not even register on the richter scale.
By the way, a significant portion of the "I'm never buying anything from WotC again!" crowd won't follow through. The stinging pain they feel they've been dealt by having their hobby changed will wear off and they'll start realizing that they are actually capable of enjoying 4th Edition. Same thing happened with 3rd Edition and 3.5.
Scott,
Will you please stop saying this (Emphasis mine)? Even if you sincerely believe it, it really, really pisses people who aren't migrating off. You are basically saying that not only are we wrong but we'll 'come around'. In short, it makes you sound like an arrogant tit, which I assume you're not. And that really destroys your credibility.
No, it was extremely relevant in response to a poster who basically said "Some people seem angry online about 4th Edition, therefore D&D is doomed."
This link is just the first of many results from Google. The core 4E set sold out by preorder alone.A more interesting question is: with increased availability of preorder options and online marketing and shopping, are the sales of new D&D editions (and other RPG products) merely getting compressed into an ever-smaller window?
I remember that it took me almost a month to get my hands on a 2nd edition PHB - and I was hunting for one rather hard. This time, I got 4 of 'em (mine, wife's, and 2 gifts) in the first day after release.
It could be simply like the blockbusterization of movie sales: sell lots in the first weekend, and drop off precipitously a couple days after that.
Mmmm, I doubt it. Movies are ad-driven for the most part and focus on heavy marketing. Role-playing games usually emphasize word-of-mouth marketing instead, which tends to take longer to spread. Sales will certainly decrease over time, which is true with most things, but I don't think you'll see a movie-style drop in purchasing. We're two months out of release and the books just went into their third printing. So if this is opening weekend, it's one hell of an opening weekend.
No, I'm not going to stop saying it. It wasn't directed at anyone in particular, and absolutely was not a blanket statement. And it is true, at least historically (which should leave little doubt that it will continue to hold true, given the acclaim 4th Edition has received). If you want to be offended by it, go ahead - I can't stop you. I wasn't saying that you're wrong, and I'm not saying that you'll come around. I said that a significant number of 4th Edition detractors will come around. I understand that you're sensitive to this sort of thing. In this case, however, you are simply too sensitive.I strongly suspect that any company that has so large a part of it's previously (relatively) content and bidable customer base stating openly online they will no longer be buying any product from that company is in trouble.One or two hundred angry, extremely vocal posters out of an estimated 2 million does not even register on the richter scale.
By the way, a significant portion of the "I'm never buying anything from WotC again!" crowd won't follow through. The stinging pain they feel they've been dealt by having their hobby changed will wear off and they'll start realizing that they are actually capable of enjoying 4th Edition. Same thing happened with 3rd Edition and 3.5.
Scott,
Will you please stop saying this (Emphasis mine)? Even if you sincerely believe it, it really, really pisses people who aren't migrating off. You are basically saying that not only are we wrong but we'll 'come around'. In short, it makes you sound like an arrogant tit, which I assume you're not. And that really destroys your credibility.
Scott, I've been down this road. Like you, I've an edition transition this several times before, heard all the _same_ complaints, and heard the protests that it really is "different this time." Yet so far it hasn't been. And like you, I think it is fairly obvious that the majority of people will end up switching eventually, but pointing that out just pisses people off. Trust me. ;-)
I strongly suspect that any company that has so large a part of it's previously (relatively) content and bidable customer base stating openly online they will no longer be buying any product from that company is in trouble.
Yes, it's hard to put true figures to online comment, but I used to work for a company that started getting similarly massive (relatively speaking) anti-comments on the net and within a year they had gone out of business. And I have to admit 'we' kinda deserved it. If you piss off your customers (in the case I reference due to poor product - rather than any of my work) then don't be surprised when your future sales go down.
Hey, as I say, at the moment we can't know the future, but I for one doubt the future success of WotC. Personal opinion of course.
If in 2 years 4e is doing swimmingly feel free to remind me of this post you 4e fans. :-)
Neither WOTC or Paizo are going anywhere.
On a related note, *WHY* do people seem to think that someone else has to lose to validate their decisions?
On a related note, *WHY* do people seem to think that someone else has to lose to validate their decisions?
Low self-esteem
|
of course, with this recent change, there's actually another company supporting the rules that some of the detractors want to stick to, so that might effect things down the line. Now, I'm not saying either is bad. 4e is a good system for those that like it, though admittedly it's not for me. I prefer 3rd/PFRPG. To me, it's like how I don't really play Hero System. It's a decent system, a good game, and people like it. But It's just not my thing.
of course, with this recent change, there's actually another company supporting the rules that some of the detractors want to stick to, so that might effect things down the line. Now, I'm not saying either is bad. 4e is a good system for those that like it, though admittedly it's not for me. I prefer 3rd/PFRPG. To me, it's like how I don't really play Hero System. It's a decent system, a good game, and people like it. But It's just not my thing.
It may, and it will be interesting to see how it changes the dynamic. Sales-wise, however, Paizo still hasn't come near being any kind of real competition to WotC. In time this might change (and indeed, I hope it does, since competition only improves the industry) but for now it's a giant and a fledgling company.
of course, with this recent change, there's actually another company supporting the rules that some of the detractors want to stick to, so that might effect things down the line. Now, I'm not saying either is bad. 4e is a good system for those that like it, though admittedly it's not for me. I prefer 3rd/PFRPG. To me, it's like how I don't really play Hero System. It's a decent system, a good game, and people like it. But It's just not my thing.
I have no doubt that Paizo will hold a larger chunk than previous editions. But I remained convinced most people will move on. Frankly, if they don't, I think it might be very bad for everyone.
As for me, I'm holding out hope that WOTC's revision of the GSL will involve them pulling their heads out of their @$$es and releasing something that one wouldn't have to be insane to use. I'd still *love* to see Paizo do some 4E stuff on the side. Frankly, if the licensing does loosen up, I owe David Kenzer and the Goodman Games folks a beer. :)
of course, with this recent change, there's actually another company supporting the rules that some of the detractors want to stick to, so that might effect things down the line. Now, I'm not saying either is bad. 4e is a good system for those that like it, though admittedly it's not for me. I prefer 3rd/PFRPG. To me, it's like how I don't really play Hero System. It's a decent system, a good game, and people like it. But It's just not my thing.
Just to point out there are/were other companies that supported the older systems when 3e was the official edition as well.
|
|
Either way, I do plan on sticking with the PFRPG myself (this coming from actually playing 4th and deciding that I still prefer the other edition.) It's just a personal thing, and I wish WotC all the best. I have lots of respect for the designers over there, as I respect the designers at Paizo, and I sincerely hope to get to work with people like them someday :)
I strongly suspect that any company that has so large a part of it's previously (relatively) content and bidable customer base stating openly online they will no longer be buying any product from that company is in trouble.
Yes, it's hard to put true figures to online comment, but I used to work for a company that started getting similarly massive (relatively speaking) anti-comments on the net and within a year they had gone out of business. And I have to admit 'we' kinda deserved it. If you piss off your customers (in the case I reference due to poor product - rather than any of my work) then don't be surprised when your future sales go down.
Hey, as I say, at the moment we can't know the future, but I for one doubt the future success of WotC. Personal opinion of course.
If in 2 years 4e is doing swimmingly feel free to remind me of this post you 4e fans. :-)
Neither WOTC or Paizo are going anywhere.
On a related note, *WHY* do people seem to think that someone else has to lose to validate their decisions?
Not sure I do. I just feel it's decidedly short sighted for any company to ignore a (apparently) large percentage of it's customer base saying they don't like the way their product has been changed and won't be buying any more of that product from that company.
Unless you have a captive customer base you're going to be in trouble quick with that kind of attitude.
But hey, as I say, I could be wrong. Maybe the games industry is different in ways I don't know to other businesses?
Scott, I've been down this road. Like you, I've an edition transition this several times before, heard all the _same_ complaints, and heard the protests that it really is "different this time." Yet so far it hasn't been. And like you, I think it is...No, I'm not going to stop saying it. It wasn't directed at anyone in particular, and absolutely was not a blanket statement. And it is true, at least historically (which should leave little doubt that it will continue to hold true, given the acclaim 4th Edition has received). If you want to be offended by it, go ahead - I can't stop you. I wasn't saying that you're wrong, and I'm not saying that you'll come around. I said that a significant number of 4th Edition detractors will come around. I understand that you're sensitive to this sort of thing. In this case, however, you are simply too sensitive.I strongly suspect that any company that has so large a part of it's previously (relatively) content and bidable customer base stating openly online they will no longer be buying any product from that company is in trouble.One or two hundred angry, extremely vocal posters out of an estimated 2 million does not even register on the richter scale.
By the way, a significant portion of the "I'm never buying anything from WotC again!" crowd won't follow through. The stinging pain they feel they've been dealt by having their hobby changed will wear off and they'll start realizing that they are actually capable of enjoying 4th Edition. Same thing happened with 3rd Edition and 3.5.
Scott,
Will you please stop saying this (Emphasis mine)? Even if you sincerely believe it, it really, really pisses people who aren't migrating off. You are basically saying that not only are we wrong but we'll 'come around'. In short, it makes you sound like an arrogant tit, which I assume you're not. And that really destroys your credibility.
Why? Why do you assume people who have already tried and decided against playing 4e are going to eventually change their minds?
Serious question, I don't think they will personally, why do you assume they will?
Sales-wise, however, Paizo still hasn't come near being any kind of real competition to WotC. In time this might change (and indeed, I hope it does, since competition only improves the industry) but for now it's a giant and a fledgling company.Paizo doesn't have to compete with WotC. All Paizo has to do is make a profit. Paizo is putting out a different product.
Arguably. I'm going to predict that most people will play one or the other.
The fact that 4.0 is different than 3.5 (or 3.75, or OGL, or whatever you want to call it) means that people who buy 4.0 can just as easily buy Pathfinder.
That's like saying that because Apple's OS is different from Microsoft's OS, people can easily buy both. It ignores the fact that many (if not most) gamers play in only one regular game.
After all, WOW players have played other games without abandoning WOW. There's no reason they'll abandon 4.0.
Most WoW players do not subscribe to other MMOs. They may buy other computer games, yes, but not other MMOs. This would be like saying that D&D players also play Monopoly, but that doesn't mean they're going to play two different types of D&D.
Not sure I do. I just feel it's decidedly short sighted for any company to ignore a (apparently) large percentage of it's customer base saying they don't like the way their product has been changed and won't be buying any more of that product from that company.I strongly suspect that any company that has so large a part of it's previously (relatively) content and bidable customer base stating openly online they will no longer be buying any product from that company is in trouble.
Yes, it's hard to put true figures to online comment, but I used to work for a company that started getting similarly massive (relatively speaking) anti-comments on the net and within a year they had gone out of business. And I have to admit 'we' kinda deserved it. If you piss off your customers (in the case I reference due to poor product - rather than any of my work) then don't be surprised when your future sales go down.
Hey, as I say, at the moment we can't know the future, but I for one doubt the future success of WotC. Personal opinion of course.
If in 2 years 4e is doing swimmingly feel free to remind me of this post you 4e fans. :-)
Neither WOTC or Paizo are going anywhere.
On a related note, *WHY* do people seem to think that someone else has to lose to validate their decisions?
"Apparently" is the key word here. It's much smaller of a percentage than is apparent.
Why? Why do you assume people who have already tried and decided against playing 4e are going to eventually change their minds?
Serious question, I don't think they will personally, why do you assume they will?
Because we've seen this before, multiple times. Not all of them will switch, but many will.
People are simply like this. Initially resistant to change (especially when the perception of a "resistance movement" exists) because of emotional or other investment in the old product. The flare of anger at the new product will die down, and at that point the resistance to the change will begin to disappear as well. This is the point where some of the former detractors will find themselves able to accept the new system.
No, it was extremely relevant in response to a poster who basically said "Some people seem angry online about 4th Edition, therefore D&D is doomed."Oh, please. It's the equivalent of saying that people who like 4E will eventually grow up and realise it's just WoW with the serial numbers filed off on paper and come back to the real game. It doesn't help matters at all and contributes nothing but firewood to the discussion.Yeah! I mean some of those will be, but will they be significant? Will they be able to enjoy it? No, they will not be significant and they will not enjoy it! So stop saying they will! They will hate every moment of their game playing![/snark]I strongly suspect that any company that has so large a part of it's previously (relatively) content and bidable customer base stating openly online they will no longer be buying any product from that company is in trouble.One or two hundred angry, extremely vocal posters out of an estimated 2 million does not even register on the richter scale.
By the way, a significant portion of the "I'm never buying anything from WotC again!" crowd won't follow through. The stinging pain they feel they've been dealt by having their hobby changed will wear off and they'll start realizing that they are actually capable of enjoying 4th Edition. Same thing happened with 3rd Edition and 3.5.
Scott,
Will you please stop saying this (Emphasis mine)? Even if you sincerely believe it, it really, really pisses people who aren't migrating off. You are basically saying that not only are we wrong but we'll 'come around'. In short, it makes you sound like an arrogant tit, which I assume you're not. And that really destroys your credibility.
Not what I said. Listen, let's be clear, if there was unanimous praise for 4e online ... wouldn't you assume that was reflective of pretty much everyone who played the game liked it?
Likewise, I think it's reasonable to assume that if there is a clearly pretty major divide between fans (I prefer the term 'customers' in this instance) online - as there clearly is - then that is also reflective of how things are beyond the internet?
Anyway, all that aside, and accepting none of us can say for sure whether internet comment is reflective or not, D&D will survive 4e, of that I'm 100% sure. I'm just not sure WotC will.
"Apparently" is the key word here. It's much smaller of a percentage than is apparent.You keep saying things like that.
What is the percentage?
No idea, beyond small. I'm certainly not an authority here. This is my opinion, based on my observations. But they're probably accurate.
Not what I said. Listen, let's be clear, if there was unanimous praise for 4e online ... wouldn't you assume that was reflective of pretty much everyone who played the game liked it?
Yes.
Likewise, I think it's reasonable to assume that if there is a clearly pretty major divide between fans (I prefer the term 'customers' in this instance) online - as there clearly is - then that is also reflective of how things are beyond the internet?
No, it's not.
Are you familiar with the term "vocal minority"?
Anyway, all that aside, and accepting none of us can say for sure whether internet comment is reflective or not, D&D will survive 4e, of that I'm 100% sure. I'm just not sure WotC will.
I'm sure WotC will, barring a major powderkeg decision on their part at some point in the future. Right now, they're doing great.
Why? Why do you assume people who have already tried and decided against playing 4e are going to eventually change their minds?
Serious question, I don't think they will personally, why do you assume they will?
Because we've seen this before, multiple times. Not all of them will switch, but many will.
People are simply like this. Initially resistant to change (especially when the perception of a "resistance movement" exists) because of emotional or other investment in the old product. The flare of anger at the new product will die down, and at that point the resistance to the change will begin to disappear as well. This is the point where some of the former detractors will find themselves able to accept the new system.
Aren't things different this time though? And due WotC own hubris too?
Before no one had much of choice, it was their way or the highway bascially. This time there are plenty of ways to continue playing living breathing, supported, versions of 3.5e. That's a big difference, especially given the general complaint that 4e has moved too far away from the feel of 'old' D&D.
You may be right, but I think WotC need to change that GSL majorly and get the big tpps back on board, because I don't see WotC being able to produce the quality of products (modules, supplements, settings, etc etc) necessary to tempt back dissenters.
"Beyond Small".No idea, beyond small. I'm certainly not an authority here. This is my opinion, based on my observations. But they're probably accurate.
"Apparently" is the key word here. It's much smaller of a percentage than is apparent.You keep saying things like that.
What is the percentage?
No, no idea, beyond small. In other words, I have no idea how small the percentage is, beyond the fact that it is small.
Not that the percentage itself is beyond small. That would just be hyperbole.
Hm. Why are your observations more accurate than those of people who think that the percentage is larger than you think it is?
Man, if you think that internet anger is an accurate representation of the real-life acceptance of a product, you've been living on a different internet.
But really, again, I'm not an authority here. If it so suits you, take all of this with a grain of salt.
No idea, beyond small. I'm certainly not an authority here. This is my opinion, based on my observations. But they're probably accurate.
"Apparently" is the key word here. It's much smaller of a percentage than is apparent.You keep saying things like that.
What is the percentage?
Fancy sharing your observations?
Aren't things different this time though? And due WotC own hubris too?Why? Why do you assume people who have already tried and decided against playing 4e are going to eventually change their minds?
Serious question, I don't think they will personally, why do you assume they will?
Because we've seen this before, multiple times. Not all of them will switch, but many will.
People are simply like this. Initially resistant to change (especially when the perception of a "resistance movement" exists) because of emotional or other investment in the old product. The flare of anger at the new product will die down, and at that point the resistance to the change will begin to disappear as well. This is the point where some of the former detractors will find themselves able to accept the new system.
Only a little, and no. Hubris is something a lot of people seem eager to apply to WotC.
Before no one had much of choice, it was their way or the highway bascially.
I shouldn't need to point out that sticking with 3.5/Pathfinder is still their way. Just not their most recent way.
This time there are plenty of ways to continue playing living breathing, supported, versions of 3.5e. That's a big difference, especially given the general complaint that 4e has moved too far away from the feel of 'old' D&D.
I've heard a lot of older players saying that 4th Edition feels more like 1st/2nd Edition than 3.5 ever did.
You may be right, but I think WotC need to change that GSL majorly and get the big tpps back on board,
Which is what they're set to announce in (likely) this upcoming week or so.
because I don't see WotC being able to produce the quality of products (modules, supplements, settings, etc etc) necessary to tempt back dissenters.
I see them as being more than able to, at least for a significant number of the dissenters.
Not what I said. Listen, let's be clear, if there was unanimous praise for 4e online ... wouldn't you assume that was reflective of pretty much everyone who played the game liked it?Yes.
Likewise, I think it's reasonable to assume that if there is a clearly pretty major divide between fans (I prefer the term 'customers' in this instance) online - as there clearly is - then that is also reflective of how things are beyond the internet?No, it's not.
Are you familiar with the term "vocal minority"?
Yeeeah ... but I don't this qualifies personally.
It's not like there are two or three vocal dissenters on each major site is it?
Do you really believe only a handful of disgruntled 3e fanatics have caused this Edition war? That's not the impression I get, and it's not reflected in my own personal, out of internet, experience - which I've seen many, many, posters repeat very similar experiences. (At best about half of local D&D groups switching basically.)
Often those who say they aren't changing aren't even that vocal about it - posting once and then moving on.
Anyway, you and I can argue the point, that's neither here nor there, but I still say it's a very bad idea for WotC to ignore such (as far as I can see) widespread complaint.
Fancy sharing your observations?No idea, beyond small. I'm certainly not an authority here. This is my opinion, based on my observations. But they're probably accurate.
"Apparently" is the key word here. It's much smaller of a percentage than is apparent.You keep saying things like that.
What is the percentage?
Sure.
- People like to complain.
- The internet is a really fantastic place to complain.
- When a person is upset, they enjoy venting that frustration.
- That frustration often compels an individual to do things they normally would not do - like post online.
- The minority is almost always more vocal than the majority, man for man, because that's the only way they can be heard.
- Just because 50 people in an online forum dedicated to the product like something and 50 people in that same forum hate it, doesn't mean that 50% of all people hate that product.
- The average person doesn't post online, and if satisfied with a product usually has no added impetus to do so.
In other words, happy people don't complain online.
Internet anger against WotC is a representation of a dissatisfied customer base.
Man, if you think that internet anger is an accurate representation of the real-life acceptance of a product, you've been living on a different internet.
No, it's a representation of a relatively small but angry portion of their customer base.
Trust me. There's going to be a 4.5 coming out soon.
I'll keep that in mind. They archive these threads, right?
Yeeeah ... but I don't this qualifies personally.Not what I said. Listen, let's be clear, if there was unanimous praise for 4e online ... wouldn't you assume that was reflective of pretty much everyone who played the game liked it?Yes.
Likewise, I think it's reasonable to assume that if there is a clearly pretty major divide between fans (I prefer the term 'customers' in this instance) online - as there clearly is - then that is also reflective of how things are beyond the internet?No, it's not.
Are you familiar with the term "vocal minority"?
It absolutely does.
It's not like there are two or three vocal dissenters on each major site is it?
That's not what the vocal minority means.
Do you really believe only a handful of disgruntled 3e fanatics have caused this Edition war?
Yes, a handful of 2 million customers. Which easily works out to a few thousand.
That's not the impression I get, and it's not reflected in my own personal, out of internet, experience - which I've seen many, many, posters repeat very similar experiences. (At best about half of local D&D groups switching basically.)
And I run a hundred-member university-level student role-playing games club. The vast majority of us think it's awesome. Your personal experience obviously differs from mine a great deal.
Often those who say they aren't changing aren't even that vocal about it - posting once and then moving on.
And then again, often they are quite vocal about it.
Anyway, you and I can argue the point, that's neither here nor there, but I still say it's a very bad idea for WotC to ignore such (as far as I can see) widespread complaint.
Only if it actually is a widespread complaint. Wizards will be closely watching their sales figures. Those are the real test for how satisfied a customer base is with a line of products.
Aren't things different this time though? And due WotC own hubris too?Why? Why do you assume people who have already tried and decided against playing 4e are going to eventually change their minds?
Serious question, I don't think they will personally, why do you assume they will?
Because we've seen this before, multiple times. Not all of them will switch, but many will.
People are simply like this. Initially resistant to change (especially when the perception of a "resistance movement" exists) because of emotional or other investment in the old product. The flare of anger at the new product will die down, and at that point the resistance to the change will begin to disappear as well. This is the point where some of the former detractors will find themselves able to accept the new system.
Only a little, and no. Hubris is something a lot of people seem eager to apply to WotC.
Before no one had much of choice, it was their way or the highway bascially.I shouldn't need to point out that sticking with 3.5/Pathfinder is still their way. Just not their most recent way.
This time there are plenty of ways to continue playing living breathing, supported, versions of 3.5e. That's a big difference, especially given the general complaint that 4e has moved too far away from the feel of 'old' D&D.I've heard a lot of older players saying that 4th Edition feels more like 1st/2nd Edition than 3.5 ever did.
You may be right, but I think WotC need to change that GSL majorly and get the big tpps back on board,Which is what they're set to announce in (likely) this upcoming week or so.
because I don't see WotC being able to produce the quality of products (modules, supplements, settings, etc etc) necessary to tempt back dissenters.I see them as being more than able to, at least for a significant...
I don't follow your meaning about Pathfinder rpg? My point was that, this edition change differs from previous ones (where it's true dissenters eventually caved due to not getting new product for their preferred older version of the game) because this time (unlike those other times) we have a choice - in Pathfinder, and other tpp OGL products.
That is a difference. I think it's a major difference.
I'd like to know how 4e is nearer in feel to 2e, than 3e was? Imo that's an absurd comment, and probably not one WotC would want to be true anyway.
Re the promised upcoming changes to the GSL, I am all expectation ... though I wonder if it wont be too little, too late. We shall see.
I don't follow your meaning about Pathfinder rpg? My point was that, this edition change differs from previous ones (where it's true dissenters eventually caved due to not getting new product for their preferred older version of the game) because this time (unlike those other times) we have a choice - in Pathfinder, and other tpp OGL products.
Maybe. The difference is only in that products for 3.5 will continue to be released. WotC didn't burn all your old 3.5 material when they changed editions. If a group wanted to stick with 3.5, they could easily stick with 3.5 regardless of Pathfinder's existence.
That is a difference. I think it's a major difference.
I think it's a difference, but not a major difference.
I'd like to know how 4e is nearer in feel to 2e, than 3e was? Imo that's an absurd comment, and probably not one WotC would want to be true anyway.
I have no idea, it's not me who has been saying it. Then again, I have difficulty understanding people who say that 4th Edition doesn't have the "feel" of D&D.
Internet anger against WotC is a representation of a dissatisfied customer base.
Man, if you think that internet anger is an accurate representation of the real-life acceptance of a product, you've been living on a different internet.No, it's a representation of a relatively small but angry portion of their customer base.
Y'see, you have no more proof that that's actually the case than we do that it's not.
You've already said you'd accept more generally glowing praise online as a reflection of a general love of the new game. Yet you don't accept a fifty-fifty(ish) split online as a reflection of anything. That seems a contradiction to me.
I'm not saying fifty percent of D&D groups won't go 4e. Or anything like that. I am saying, to completely dismiss all complaints and voiced intent online not to switch (this time) as you seem to be doing, is just plain short sighted.