Crown of Fangs Aftermath (SPOILERS)

[Mikaze]

Just throwing these out there to kick up discussion and to see how different GMs are approaching things.

After the PCs (hopefully) succeed, there are a number of dangling plot threads still itching to be scratched:

The Church of Asmodeus -

Spoiler:

Talk about a PR disaster. Asmodeus wasn't all that popular with the general populace to begin with, but if word gets out to them that his clergy nearly enabled thousands of their deaths they'll be out in the streets wanting to put that temple to the torch. It could give rival faiths the leverage they need to finally boot them out, but would the loss of that church cost Korvosa anything beyond a tenuous relation with Cheliax?

I can see the Church of Abadar(which will probably have its own shakeups in management) being split on the issue if a sudden dissolving of the Church of Asmodeus would cause even more chaos(records being lost, legal documents being nullified, etc.) While I can see the PCs getting involved in preventing mobs from lynching Asmodeus' priests, does maintaining a slow and orderly dismissal of their church have much adventure potential?

Or could the Church of Asmodeus actually defend themselves and clear their names in a fair trial?

The Grey Maidens -

Spoiler:

This was one of the big tragedies to me, probably because I plan on milking it for all it's worth. They were victims themselves, as much as the people they were turned loose upon. What will become of their surviving members?

Along the lines of the mob justice scenario for the priests of Asmodeus, I can easily see people wanting them put to the sword and some courts being all too willing to hurry that along to appease an angry populace. "Sorry you got brainwashed and all, better luck next life." This could be really upsetting for PCs who had people they knew, possibly even friends and family, wind up in the Grey Maiden program.

Can they be helped to overcome their conditioning? How much of it was psychological and magical? If the latter was involved, could Ileosa's death have an effect? And is it viable for enough surviving Maidens to band together and continue their cultish devotion to Ileosa or whatever could replace her in their minds? Or worse, could they continue to induct new members into whatever they eventually become?

I can easily see my cleric wanting to set up an asylum for them. It probably wouldn't be a good idea to have it in the city limits though.

The Red Mantis -

Spoiler:

So, does Ileosa's death render her contract with them null and void? Are the Red Mantis the type to just cut their losses or would they see the PCs continued breathing as an affront?

I'm kind of playing with the idea of the Red Mantis "putting them to use" in a way similar to how Vimes from the Discworld "Guards" books is used by the Assassin's Guild: Send your rookies after them to weed out the weak. They could be intended to only attempt to kill the PCs or to achieve a set objective that would have the PCs in an adversarial position, after which they're allowed to return. If they actually do manage to kill a PC, well bonus points for that rookie.

Or is this too light an action for the Red Mantis to take?

[EATherrian]

I'll give my opinions for the Red Mantis question:

Spoiler:

I take it that their contracts are considered a holy charge, so I would say that Ileosa's death does not change anything. In fact they might be more willing to kill the PCs for all the trouble the PCs have given them.

[roguerouge]

Mikaze wrote:

The Church of Asmodeus -

Oh, they'd totally win at a trial. They've got skill, documents, and the law. They were following orders from a legitimate authority. And they'd bring everyone else down with them to provide context for their actions. All of the nobles that behaved badly would want this to be settled out of court.

[roguerouge]

Mikaze wrote:

J

The Grey Maidens -

Spoiler:

To complicate matters, have some of the Grey Maidens didn't require any coercion. But have some of those that did require coercion be accused of being volunteers, just to cloud the issue.

[The Black Fox]

I have not been able to pick up a copy of Crown of Fangs yet, but here are my ideas:

The Church of Asmodeus

Spoiler:

It sounds like the Church of Asmodeus backed Queen Ileosa up. This is a revolution/rebellion/civil war situation, and assuming the PCs win the Church of Asmodeus was not on the winning side. In these situations, there aren't trials - fair or not. It's war. In this situation, people tend to settle scores, and I can easily see the Church being wiped out in Korvosa. If the cult is lucky, they may be able to negotiate safe passage out. At the most, maybe the cult of Abadar would assist that negotiation and keep the clerics of Asmodeus alive as a neutral mediator. If not, wipe them out especially if the PCs want to lead it. This is the time when "new Korvosa" will be built. Who wants the cult of Asmodeus still involved?

The Gray Maidens

Spoiler:

They're goners too. When you do a proper coup, you don't let the fanatical armed forces of the person you just took out stay around. If some of them quickly denounce the Queen and repent, you can probably save them - especially if the PCs can vouch for them or protect them. Otherwise, all goners

The Red Mantis

Spoiler:

This really depends on how you want to play the Red Mantis in your campaign long term. There is probably some sort of standard contract with reasonable clauses for termination. It's up to you to decide if the death of the contractor voids the assignment. I can easily see it both ways. What I would not do is have the Red Mantis go after the PCs simply for revenge. Revenge is quite petty, and the Red Mantis is devoted to their god and serve his needs. And sending trained recruits off to possible death just to weed out the weak is not the hallmark of an elite organization. If you do decide the Red Mantis feels it needs to honor the contract with Ileosa, then there is nothing to prevent them from picking the right time to do so when success is assured. Personally, I'd put in a sleeper agent to observe them long term. Then in 10 or 20 years time, when they're retired and the group is separated and everyone is quite defenseless - then you send in assassins to kill them. After all, it doesn't matter now when they die if the ideal is simply to insure the contract is carried out. That carries out the message the Red Mantis wants - "if we're sent to kill someone, we do it, regardless of how long it takes," rather than "we're incompetent boobs who keep sending half trained idiots to die."

[roguerouge]

Mikaze wrote:

The Church of Asmodeus - ** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:

Actually, given how thoroughly committed the Asmodeans are to the Queen after THAT decision, I'm surprised that they don't try to take a more active hand against the PCs.

[roguerouge]

The Black Fox wrote:

The Red Mantis

Spoiler:

Well, the players might protest at something like that... however, I think it makes perfect sense to have the Red Mantis bide their time....

[Mactaka]

As far as the Asmodeus question:

Spoiler:

Perhaps the church leaders appeal to their Cheliaxan counterparts to influence the home country to send troops to fill the power vacuum. Or the counterparts in Cheliax see this as a rip opportunity to expand their empire/influence.

Unless the PCs do something, I would probably have Cheliax annex or occupy Korvosa with strong support from the Church of Asmodeus

[The Black Fox]

Mactaka, to follow up on your point:

Church of Asmodeus

Spoiler:

The obvious countermove is for the PCs, who have interacted with the Shoanti and probably made personal allies and been accepted as Shoanti and one of the tribes itself, is to intercede with the Shoanti and arrange for an alliance against Cheliax. In the city itself, the pure Cheliax faction has probably been completely discredited due to the Queen, and the citizens are looking to forge a new identity. An alliance with Shoanti could be the start of something very new. Such an alliance might not be enough to counter the full force of a Chelish invasion, but I also don't think the entire armed forces would be mobilized for such a thing. Cheliax would look at what forces are available. I think Korvosa plus Shoanti could either cause Cheliax to decide not to invade, or to risk one campaign and if defeated, accept the results and sign a treaty. With all sorts of revenge plotting afterwards.

[tbug]

As written, I think that Korvosa is full of some pretty strong prejudice against the Shoanti. Unless the average citizen can see some Shoanti (other than the PCs) actually saving the city I just don't see any reconciliation passing the players' suspension of disbelief.

On the other hand, the city is in bad shape. Desperate times call for desperate measures, and maybe people can stop using the word "horser" if they really need to.

[The Black Fox]

It's rare to turn away allies when you're under attack (about the only time it's done is when you think the "ally" intends to subjugate you after it's over). So if Korvosa was under attack by armies from a devil cult, I don't think they'd refuse an alliance. Plus, you don't need to convince the ordinary people to ally. You only need to convince the new leadership of Korvosa.

Likewise, the Shoanti seem to want revenge against Chelish. If convinced that Korvosa would be friendly to them, then I think they would consider a temporary alliance at least. And I think the PCs could convince both sides to agree to some sort of treaty.

What happens long term, who knows, but in the short term in this scenario, I think it's feasible.

[tbug]

You make some good points. I'll ponder, and play it by ear if/when we ever get that far.

[Mikaze]

roguerouge wrote:

Mikaze wrote:

J

The Grey Maidens -

** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:

Oh yeah, you're definitely going to have some bad apples in the bunch that were broken before they signed up. Hell, might be a few Zon-Kuthon worshippers in the mix that are just dandy with the treatment.

The Black Fox wrote:

I have not been able to pick up a copy of Crown of Fangs yet, but here are my ideas:

The Church of Asmodeus
** spoiler omitted **

It's a bit more complicated than that.

Spoiler:

It wasn't just the Church of Asmodeus that backed Ileosa up. Numerous nobles houses gave her approval(mostly out of fear rather than opportunism), and the Church of Abadar itself approved and confirmed her legitimacy as queen. The thing that sets the Church of Asmodeus apart is that they were directly tied in with Ileosa's plot to drain blood from every Korvosan that she could, even though they likely didn't know the truth of her plans. They were simply ordered to take blood samples from everyone, including those most loyal to Ileosa(including the Grey Maidens).

If that bit of information doesn't get out, the Church of Asmodeus will likely only suffer slightly more of a backlash than the Church of Abadar in popularity and acceptance among the people. If it DOES get out, whoa Nellie.

The Black Fox wrote:

The Grey Maidens
** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:

Remember that Korvosa is a very lawful city going through some chaotic times. While there will be no shortage of people that would want them put to the sword ASAP and willing to do it themselves, those trying to reestablish order(Church of Abadar, a lot of the NPC allies, and possibly the PCs themselves) would want to see things handled properly and with due process. Especially if they're informed about the nature of the Grey Maidens and realize that they could repent with help, but are actually mentally incapable of doing so at the moment.

And really, a lot of it still depends on how much of the conditioning was magical and thus possibly tied in with Ileosa still breathing. Extra incentive for the PCs to hurry up and kill her off if they have anyone they care for among the number of imprisoned Grey Maidens.

That and wiping them all out and being done with it wouldn't work for my campaign. My PCs are going to be put through the tragedy wringer as is.

The Black Fox wrote:

The Red Mantis
** spoiler omitted **

I don't know, the Assassins Guild of Ankh-Morpork is pretty elite. ;)

Spoiler:

It's not so much that they would be sending rookies after them in honest hopes of killing them off, but more along the lines of throwing trouble students against something with the primary purpose of instilling some humility and patience in them. Another angle is that depending on how they view themselves in relation to Achaecek, some among that order could declare them as "hands-off" since they're apparently worthy of living(like how Achaecek goes after unworthy aspirations of godhood, but not after those with a genuine shot at making it through the Starstone trial(which brings up another point, how long can Razmir go without drawing Achaecek's thunder down?)). That or as you said, put them on hold and just watch and wait until the time is right. Either way could do to keep the entire Red Mantis organization from just wearing them down, which wouldn't be all that fun for the PCs(who may be badass at that point, but there's no way they're taking out the entire organization by themselves).

And yeah, regardless of whether or not the Church of Asmodeus calls for help or not, Cheliax could see a weakened Korvosa as easy pickings, which would kick off the whole get-the-Shoanti-on-our-side quest. That is, if Cheliax's plate isn't too full already. They kept turning down Korvosa's request for annexation for a reason, whatever that may be. It would be a useful springboard for further invasion of Varisia. Maybe they were playing it safe and not wanting to overextend themselves(which is likely what enabled House Thrune to take over Cheliax to begin with).

[Mikaze]

I guess we can give up on spoiler tags too, since we have a page full now. You know, to save those that just can't resist clicking on a topic out of curiosity(or missing the initial spoiler warning). ;)

[Mactaka]

Do you think that ambitious PCs could set themselves up as rulers there, aka Conan the Usurper style?

[Mikaze]

Mactaka wrote:

Do you think that ambitious PCs could set themselves up as rulers there, aka Conan the Usurper style?

As long as they had the backing of the people.(or at least the "right" people) If they plan on holding onto that power that is.

Spoiler:

I think that's actually one of the "After the Campaign" scenarios presented in the book: everyone is struggling to get a new ruler put in place to restore the monarchy, noble houses fighting over the crown.

Neolandus seemed like the best candidate for the job, although a PC loved and respected by the public with the right qualities could qualify as well. Heaven the poor PC that takes the job though, especially if the DM expects him to do his job!

The PCs, even if well-liked, setting themselves up as rulers in a different way might be a harder sell to the people of Korvosa.

[Terok the Sly]

It could easily be a PC I think, if they want the job. The cleric from the party I GM, spent a lot of time in 7 days caring for the avergae Joe by setting up a large clinic to help hundreds of them through the disease and helped a bunch of people in Old Korvosa in Escape. He is Lawful Good and with the backing of the new "Black Jack" could probably be seen as a very viable ruler.
He has also suggested that they get the Shoanti involved with helping in re-taking the city. If played right it could set up a much better relationship with them...

[Studpuffin]

I would think that Magnimaar would make a move before Cheliax could, probably sending a fleet with supplies to "alleviate" Korvosa's troubles and bring the city firmly under their managment, if not outright invade the city.

Kaer Maga would likely take a shot at them as well.

[gigglestick]

Studpuffin wrote:

I would think that Magnimaar would make a move before Cheliax could, probably sending a fleet with supplies to "alleviate" Korvosa's troubles and bring the city firmly under their managment, if not outright invade the city.

Kaer Maga would likely take a shot at them as well.

Yeah, Magnimar was my thought as well. Especially if they play their cards right and offer assistance instad of just straight out conquest. Of course, this means that a lot of the nobles might object, but the PCs can easily deal with that. (Swords and spells).