RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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Fellow DM's running the STAP, my PC's are just busting up the competition. At the moment I have 7 players (though only 6 regularly make it). Now my campaign idea was to run the STAP as a Planar campaign featuring a band of our old 2nd ed Planescape PC's.
I started with HBTM and am nearly concluded with SoS and the majority of my players will be 16th or 17th, which is spot on with the recommended advancement. My real problem is the PC's are just tough customers. With access to planeshift, teleport, windwalk and several known portals to Sigil the group has access to a planar metropolis for gear. Now I've only allowed them about a month of downtime in the span between saving Farshore (a colony of Signers on the Beastlands) and the abduction of the Umbra (alu-fiend love interest of the groups aasimar paladin, in place of Lavinia). Even so they are well equipped to fight tanar'ri and other evil outsiders sporting fiendslaying crytals, sacred, bane, and axiomatic weapons.
The Players...
-Arros Firebrand: male human Cleric 11/Demonwrecker 5 of St. Cuthbert
-Deek Blackhammer: male goliath Bbn 8/Ftr 4/Uncanny Trickster 3
-Duklar: male tiefling Scout 15
-Elyn: female star elf Sorcerer 15
-Kip: male gnome Cleric 3/Bard 3/Divine Trickster 9
-Sir Lucien Bradley: male aasimar paladin 17 (wings instead of mount)
-Yark: male half-orc Bbn 16 (has tooth of ahazhu)
They just tore through the Wreck… everyone but Vzorthys the Eye of the Deep was basically fodder. The Lemorians Captains could barely scratch the AC’s or dent the HP’s of the Paladin, Cleric, Scout, or Barbarians. Some of my PC’s can boost their ACs into the low 40’s, so even with +20 to 25 to hit I need 17+!!! The Goliath is annoying in that he took the Mage slayer and Pierce Magical Protections feats, not to mention his ridiculous damage output (large Goliath Greathammer and Leap Attack with 34 Str raging). The Sorcerer’s save DC’s are enormous (21 to 28 for the most part with her 30 Chr).
I have a feeling that few to none of the baddies as written further down the line will suffiently challenge them with out tweaking. So I ask you evil DM’s who’ve done just that to share some of your tactics with me.
Typical spells my PC’s use to great effect are Bolt of Glory, Disintegrate, Cacophonic Burst, Downdraft, Zealot’s Pact, Righteous wrath of the Faithful, Earth Reaver, Moon Bolt, Disintegrate, Field of Icy Razors, Rhino Rush, and Find the Gap.
Fellow DM's running the STAP, my PC's are just busting up the competition. At the moment I have 7 players (though only 6 regularly make it). Now my campaign idea was to run the STAP as a Planar campaign featuring a band of our old 2nd ed Planescape PC's.
I started with HBTM and am nearly concluded with SoS and the majority of my players will be 16th or 17th, which is spot on with the recommended advancement. My real problem is the PC's are just tough customers. With access to planeshift, teleport, windwalk and several known portals to Sigil the group has access to a planar metropolis for gear. Now I've only allowed them about a month of downtime in the span between saving Farshore (a colony of Signers on the Beastlands) and the abduction of the Umbra (alu-fiend love interest of the groups aasimar paladin, in place of Lavinia). Even so they are well equipped to fight tanar'ri and other evil outsiders sporting fiendslaying crytals, sacred, bane, and axiomatic weapons.
The Players...
-Arros Firebrand: male human Cleric 11/Demonwrecker 5 of St. Cuthbert
-Deek Blackhammer: male goliath Bbn 8/Ftr 4/Uncanny Trickster 3
-Duklar: male tiefling Scout 15
-Elyn: female star elf Sorcerer 15
-Kip: male gnome Cleric 3/Bard 3/Divine Trickster 9
-Sir Lucien Bradley: male aasimar paladin 17 (wings instead of mount)
-Yark: male half-orc Bbn 16 (has tooth of ahazhu)They just tore through the Wreck… everyone but Vzorthys the Eye of the Deep was basically fodder. The Lemorians Captains could barely scratch the AC’s or dent the HP’s of the Paladin, Cleric, Scout, or Barbarians. Some of my PC’s can boost their ACs into the low 40’s, so even with +20 to 25 to hit I need 17+!!! The Goliath is annoying in that he took the Mage slayer and Pierce Magical Protections feats, not to mention his ridiculous damage output (large Goliath Greathammer and Leap Attack with 34 Str raging). The Sorcerer’s save DC’s are enormous (21 to 28 for the most part with her 30 Chr).
I have a feeling that few to none of the baddies...
I shall prod Turin to reply forthwith. In the mean time, he has posted a number of modifiable stat blocks on his campaign journal thread. It seems you will want to pester him for the Vanthus we had to face ...
Primemover, presuming you are not going to house-rule certain changes (specifically as regards Bolt of Glory, ridiculously powerful for its spell level as a generally-available Cleric spell per its Spell Compendium revision, as opposed to when it was a domain-only spell), there are a number of bits of goodness one can unload on that character group.
1. I would suggest liberal application of the "Augmented Antagonist Template" I came up with early on in my STAP. Revise skill points as necessary to ramp up their primary skill checks as well as garnering Skill Tricks (since some of your PCs no doubt have their own already). Teamwork benefits and the 'totem' goodies from PHB 2 are another way to ramp the baddies up without taking on swag for the characters to loot. Additional templates for "solo" encounters that work VERY well include Monster of Legend (MM 2). Given that your group is so large, I'd make routine use of these 2 templates in combination on the major baddies.
2. Make use when possible for one's baddies with Greater Spell Immunity, Ray Deflection, Anti-Life Shell, Spell Turning, Dimensional Anchor (and its 8th level area-affect cousin) and, for some of them, Anti-Magic Field. These are simple and effective defensive measures quite a few baddies can reasonably acquire if they do not already (technically) have access to them.
3. Prep your baddies with Unholy and Anarchic weapon bonuses (to amp their damage output in return). You have at least 2 Lawful characters - cleric of St Cuthbert and the paladin - in the group, take advantage of that. Permanent +5 greater magic fang buffs on the baddies with claw and fang can amp up that attack bonus. I recommend
4. Offensively, Unholy Word and Word of Chaos are also good friends to your baddies. If need be, give key baddies one-use command word items packing this at a CL of 20. This will buy them time to hammer your characters due to dazing or stunning plus the added benefit of ability penalties. Be sure to take the same approach with no-save spells, or ones that making the saves matters little for. Empowered Horrid Wilting, Chain Dispel (making sure to target victims' items in addition to themselves), Avascular Mass, Sonic Meteor Swarm, and of course Maximized Force Orbs and Sonic Orbs. Melee baddies need use-activated 'dissolve on death' Wraith Strike items to carve through those ridiculous ACs and piles of hit points you're facing.
5. Craft Contingent Spell is Your Friend. (Death Throes, maximized, CL 20, is a remarkably effective 'kamikazi' tool for relatively cheap doling out of massive amounts of carnage.) Use this method sparingly - but if you do, do it thoroughly, gunning for a TPK. An Alienist that summons vast swarms of low-level critters, all primed with one of these, along with said summoner having a (MM rod Widened) Greater Consumptive Field up (and having snorted Incense of Meditation) can reduce a cloud of such minions to 9 or negative hp in a single word. Said field will snuff the lot at one go, REALLY amping the caster's STR and CL, while the detonations upon said death kills everything in the blast radii. Surviving heroes are about guaranteed to die at the clutches of a well-placed Unholy Word shortly afterwards, for example.
6. Remember the fiends' at-will Greater Teleport and other abilities. If your group even smacks of making use of the swift-action spells (especially the ones that limit action types), this ability MUST be house-ruled to work on a move-action instead of a standard action. Grant them a bonus feat if their CL is high enough to Quicken Greater Teleport if possible or instead of house-ruling this change. If not, Quicken Telekinesis is brutal - especially when they have, for example, a new habit of toting around bundles of 10 - 15 shortspears to volley at foes with said telekinesis. Even better is to have 250 pound (10d6) or 375 pound (15d6) statues - say, depicting one's heroes being violated in unspeakable manners by the foes with Telekinesis - laying around to hurl at the heroes. This is much more effective if the baddies have enough of an attack bonus to capitolize on the heavy blows they can land with such artwork.
7. Focus fire - the characters assuredly do it, the baddies will too, especially if ANY of them survived previous encounters to report. Naturally, the Big D can readily scry upon them and place spies nearby as innocuous critters (the fiendish acid spewing ants come readily to mind, being rather pervasive critters) that maintain a healthy distance (say, 50 yards or so) while packing +15 Spot items that work in thier altered forms (so as to offset the Spot penalty for that range mainly). Gather intelligence 'in play' and make use of it as the path winds to its conclusion.
8. I found it VERY necessary to heavily modify Vanthus from the write up in the AP to offer a healthy challenge to my player group. Let me know if you need me to post it. I know others on these boards have already received the write-up, so if they know how to contact you off-board perhaps they can send you the document ?
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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Thanks Turin I will have to digest and evaluate a lot of that nasty advice.
Just a few more tidbits about the group.
The Paladin has a (Su) aura from a Dragon issue that inhibits any evil outsider who has less HD than he does summons and teleport abilities to 30 ft.
The Demonwrecker likes to use his Turn attempts to Maximise his spells... I have found Divine Interdiction in the SpC to counter this.
The Goliath is just sick. So far he's managed to land Crits in the 300+ range and can leap 76 feet (on a 20). His skill tricks are nice, but managable. As my resisdent power gamer he's shored up his Will save with the mindarmor enhancment and a greater armor crystal that gives him a +5 to mind effecting spells and abilities 3/d. The Mage Slayer chain of feats is also just ridiculously overpowered, especially Pierce Magical Protections with it's auto dispel.
The party also has a few teamwork benefits, mainly Crowded Charge but I have been looking at some for my baddies. Yes Vanthus really needs an overhaul.
A small aside.... the Monster of Legend template lost a lot of luster from 2nd ed to 3rd.
Drat - post monster chomped on my reply ... will wait to see if it reappears...
Thanks Turin I will have to digest and evaluate a lot of that nasty advice. Replies are in bold. Do remember, your PCs have non-standard races by the by excepting the gnome, as I recall. Baddies shoud get some benefit in trade, imo.
Just a few more tidbits about the group.
The Paladin has a (Su) aura from a Dragon issue that inhibits any evil outsider who has less HD than he does summons and teleport abilities to 30 ft.The operative phrase is "less HD". Sure, the vrocks can't *pouf* in and spore him to death - but they CAN telekinetically bull rush him in concert to them to eat spore clouds, or off the cliff if they can manage it. Most of the heavy hitters have more HD than the Paladin will.
The Demonwrecker likes to use his Turn attempts to Maximise his spells... I have found Divine Interdiction in the SpC to counter this.
I believe that permits a saving throw. Remember, I'd bet he's using that in combination with the Bolt of Glory especially, so Ray Deflection and Spell Turning are excellent defenses. Alternatively, a critter going to melee with the Demonwrecker can certainly be packing, say, a combined Silence + Dimensional Lock one-off item. An ideal goodie to bestow upon a group of foes that can rapidly close to melee range.
The Goliath is just sick. So far he's managed to land Crits in the 300+ range and can leap 76 feet (on a 20). His skill tricks are nice, but managable. As my resisdent power gamer he's shored up his Will save with the mindarmor enhancment and a greater armor crystal that gives him a +5 to mind effecting spells and abilities 3/d. The Mage Slayer chain of feats is also just ridiculously overpowered, especially Pierce Magical Protections with it's auto dispel.
Sounds like a combination of certain Tactical Feats and Leap Attack. A sovereign remedy - asides from Anti-Life Shell, Maze, Forcecage/cube, Wall of Force and similar effects - is the joyful combination of Elusive Combatant (designate Goliath with Dodge, ignore all the Power Attack damage bonus), Combat Reflexes and Hold the Line. Have a Maximized Ray of Clumsiness on standby as well, then light him up with it. Once his DEX is trashed to 0, he's helpless and coup-de-gras able, warranting the always fun Death Blow feat. If his DEX is better than 11, other methods may be warranted - targeting his armor is valid, for example, with - say - an Empowered Disintegrate ... Then administer the same to his weapon. Check the bonus type of that crystal - you will have to refresh my memory on the Mindarmor enhancement, however.
Mage Slayer only thwarts spellcasters - creatures with spell-like abilities are not spellcasters, thus that feat's ruining of casting defensively doesn't apply. Pierce Magical Concealment is not sovereign - it doesn't actually do anything to old-fashioned invisibility, based on the feat's listing of what it does bypass. Want to really ruin thier day ? Superior Invisibility and numerous high-level spells are a deadly combination. Pierce Magical Protections requires that he hit and do damage - you will love how hard I made my Vanthus to hit. ^_^ If he cannot hit, the protections stand. And rest assured the dread wraiths will swarm his big carcass and slurp his CON dry in a matter of moments...
The party also has a few teamwork benefits, mainly Crowded Charge but I have been looking at some for my baddies. Yes Vanthus really needs an overhaul.
Make sure to cherry pick skill tricks, teamwork benefits and the group spirit thingamajigger to suit. I will post Vanthus if you wish - it might be wiser to e-mail you the word document to prevent your players from perusing his stat block. I can draw the conclusion your group is about as nasty as mine was, so he should draw a few casualties for you if all goes well.
A small aside.... the Monster of Legend template lost a lot of luster from 2nd ed to 3rd.
I use the as-written MM 2 template. Given what you are facing on the other side of the screen, do the same in combination with Augmented Antagonist. You should like the results. Players complain ? Too bad - they're six or seven in number with almost all the splatbooks, time to return the favor. XD
Hope this helps! ^_^
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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lol... when they fought the first Vanthus in ToD I upped him to a Tempest 5 and had him have Elusive Target... unfortunately I couldn't find the feat or class ability or skill trick to let me switch Dodge opponents as an immediate action. I had designated the Paly as my Dodge before he tried to Rhino Rush Vanthus. The Goliath then proceeded to leap attack him to paste... though if I could've swtiched my Dodge the Cleric would've gotten the full brunt of his leap attak via cause overreach.
I believe Mind Armor is +3 competence and the Crystal is untyped, but 3/d. I think I read that about SLA's and Pierce Magical Prot as well somewhere.
I'd love to see your Vathus... email him to me zeroxero3@yahoo.com
lol... when they fought the first Vanthus in ToD I upped him to a Tempest 5 and had him have Elusive Target... unfortunately I couldn't find the feat or class ability or skill trick to let me switch Dodge opponents as an immediate action. I had designated the Paly as my Dodge before he tried to Rhino Rush Vanthus. The Goliath then proceeded to leap attack him to paste... though if I could've swtiched my Dodge the Cleric would've gotten the full brunt of his leap attak via cause overreach.
If memory serves, being able to switch one's Dodge focus as a free action can happen as part of that Tactical feat - but I caveat that by saying "double check". :)
I believe Mind Armor is +3 competence and the Crystal is untyped, but 3/d. I think I read that about SLA's and Pierce Magical Prot as well somewhere.
I'd love to see your Vathus... email him to me zeroxero3@yahoo.com
Vanthus is en route. ^_^
And we KNOW he will remember Cap'n Boingy-Boingy ... most likely, targeting him first.
Be advised to read the set up I hammered my group with - I didn't permit them to take him on solo...
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The sad part is that I ran a quick one off game with some pregen Pathfinder characters and used a slightly higher than party level encounter and it ended in a TPK. The difference is that once you allow a bunch of books into the game you can just get rid of CR and start working on bumping up encounters by significant amounts.
My current Savage Tide game is getting to the Pirate attack on Farshore and I have to bump encounters by at least 2-3 levels just to stay competitive with the PCs. I am working on adding levels to Vanthus, bumping up the Yuan-ti sorcerer and adding another one(at the original level), buffing the Half-bloods, adding leaders to the pirates staying on the ships, advancing flesh golems, etc....
It really stinks because I choose to run the path to save work on my part.
My next path with be run using core Pathfinder. No supplements. A 10th level party shouldn't be able to rip up EL 15's with ease routinely.
I really don't have much advice beyond advancing the encounters.
The sad part is that I ran a quick one off game with some pregen Pathfinder characters and used a slightly higher than party level encounter and it ended in a TPK. The difference is that once you allow a bunch of books into the game you can just get rid of CR and start working on bumping up encounters by significant amounts.
My current Savage Tide game is getting to the Pirate attack on Farshore and I have to bump encounters by at least 2-3 levels just to stay competitive with the PCs. I am working on adding levels to Vanthus, bumping up the Yuan-ti sorcerer and adding another one(at the original level), buffing the Half-bloods, adding leaders to the pirates staying on the ships, advancing flesh golems, etc....
It really stinks because I choose to run the path to save work on my part.
My next path with be run using core Pathfinder. No supplements. A 10th level party shouldn't be able to rip up EL 15's with ease routinely.
I really don't have much advice beyond advancing the encounters.
Yeah, that last part is one of the reasons I'm looking forward to Pathfinder as a ruleset. As long as reasonable character builds can be seen, a GM doesn't have to go borderline psychotic to make a challenging encounter based off of pre-written material...
Oh, and at that point in the campaign, do NOT award CR-based XP - base XP awards instead on being enough to get them where they mostly need to be. They should NOT be 21st level when they confront the Big D no matter what - 20th or less and they should still be sufficiently nasty to pound him into sand pretty fast.
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Wow Turin that's some stat block!
My Cleric is fond of using the Pact spells in SpC and it'll be nice to use them to my advantage for once. I like the evil weapons and items you set him up with. for the most part my Players have destroyed almost everything that was evilly aligned so none of it will benefit them much.
I'll definitely have to digest this over the next two weeks (we're on a bit of a break) to fully map out the tactics I'll want to use. I really need to bone up on the SpC and BoVD... there a lot of goodies (or baddies) I missed!
Hey Turin, if it isn't too much trouble could you send me the Vanthus stats also. If so feel free to toss in any other tweaks you've got that could be helpful in the path. My address is
falsehealer at yahoo dot com.
Sure thing Sir Fakey. I'll send the modified critters that I put in play along with him - Lazruvakus, the Shadows of Socobenhoth, the Dread Wraiths ... think I sent Sir primemover my tweak of Cold Captain Withers as well.
I have word documents of most everything I've posted in the journal, plus of course I've refrained from posting Vanthus. As it turns out, with requests like these, I'm gladdened I elected not to post my version of Vanthus. It warms my heart that his write up will get to wreak havoc and add more character deaths to his tally.
Also, PH Dungeon has done some nice stat blocks of his own for the STAP, so perhaps he would be willing to donate his write ups as well. He is very fond of Reciprocal Gyre for blasting spell-laden characters, especially Abjurant Champions!
BTW, if anyone is preparing to run the STAP - or is running but hasn't gotten to Serpents of Scuttlecove yet - take a look at the threads with pics of home-done mock ups of the Wreck that so prominently features in that chapter. If you have the means and time, it would be well worth it to capture those set ups and replicate them for your own group. Heck, make it a group project and award a Lifestone or something for those players who assist you in putting it together. :) I know I wish I had, it would have made for a VERY memorable couple of sessions.
Wow Turin that's some stat block!
My Cleric is fond of using the Pact spells in SpC and it'll be nice to use them to my advantage for once. I like the evil weapons and items you set him up with. for the most part my Players have destroyed almost everything that was evilly aligned so none of it will benefit them much.
I'll definitely have to digest this over the next two weeks (we're on a bit of a break) to fully map out the tactics I'll want to use. I really need to bone up on the SpC and BoVD... there a lot of goodies (or baddies) I missed!
Thank you Sir primemover, that took quite some time to put together. There are a lot of tactics viable with Vanthus, especially with the crew of dread wraiths and shadow demons at his behest. Tack on the magma drake and you have a tough, tough fight - as it should be.
The SpC is the GM's Bane in 3.5, as is the MIC.
Wow Turin that's some stat block!
My Cleric is fond of using the Pact spells in SpC and it'll be nice to use them to my advantage for once. I like the evil weapons and items you set him up with. for the most part my Players have destroyed almost everything that was evilly aligned so none of it will benefit them much.
I'll definitely have to digest this over the next two weeks (we're on a bit of a break) to fully map out the tactics I'll want to use. I really need to bone up on the SpC and BoVD... there a lot of goodies (or baddies) I missed!
Thank you Sir primemover, that took quite some time to put together. There are a lot of tactics viable with Vanthus, especially with the crew of dread wraiths and shadow demons at his behest. Tack on the magma drake and you have a tough, tough fight - as it should be.
The SpC is the GM's Bane in 3.5, as is the MIC.
To which MIC items are you referring? I have the book, but I haven't yet gone through it with a fine-tooth comb to find any game-breaking items.
Wow Turin that's some stat block!
My Cleric is fond of using the Pact spells in SpC and it'll be nice to use them to my advantage for once. I like the evil weapons and items you set him up with. for the most part my Players have destroyed almost everything that was evilly aligned so none of it will benefit them much.
I'll definitely have to digest this over the next two weeks (we're on a bit of a break) to fully map out the tactics I'll want to use. I really need to bone up on the SpC and BoVD... there a lot of goodies (or baddies) I missed!
Thank you Sir primemover, that took quite some time to put together. There are a lot of tactics viable with Vanthus, especially with the crew of dread wraiths and shadow demons at his behest. Tack on the magma drake and you have a tough, tough fight - as it should be.
The SpC is the GM's Bane in 3.5, as is the MIC.
To which MIC items are you referring? I have the book, but I haven't yet gone through it with a fine-tooth comb to find any game-breaking items.
The biggest culprit are swift/immediate action items - and the one that most readily springs to mind is the Belt of Battle. There are quite a few others as well. The entire book is not necessarily suspect - but their are enough items in the book that it sets teeth on edge to even see it coming out. I'll post more items that I found to be a problem at a later point, albiet soon.
The biggest culprit are swift/immediate action items - and the one that most readily springs to mind is the Belt of Battle. There are quite a few others as well. The entire book is not necessarily suspect - but their are enough items in the book that it sets teeth on edge to even see it coming out. I'll post more items that I found to be a problem at a later point, albiet soon.The SpC is the GM's Bane in 3.5, as is the MIC.
To which MIC items are you referring? I have the book, but I haven't yet gone through it with a fine-tooth comb to find any game-breaking items.
Thanks for the heads-up on that item. I'm looking forward to your later post on other problem items.
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There a lot of items in the MIC that the players love and covet. There are also a lot of newer rules for crafting items that make it easier to stock up on items. I generally allow most of it because I can use them too, though as always at high levels it's really hard to remember everything you have at your disposal when you're running 8-10 monsters wheareas the PC is concentrating on only themselves.
Some troublesome items are the Belt of Battle (3 charges that grant a move, standard, or full round action) and the Scouts headband (3 charges grant darkvision, see invis, or true seeing), the psycoactive skins can be meddlesome especially the skin of dampening which minimizes a spell of effect as an immediate action (oh failed vs Disintegrate? 24d6 becomes 24 points of damage) or the Bear Helm (take half damage from Crit or Sneak Attack when raging 1/d).
The Demonwrecker likes to use his Turn attempts to Maximise his spells... I have found Divine Interdiction in the SpC to counter this.
If I remember right, Divine Interdiction (like Silence) can be cast on an object. I screwed over my players in a situation by casting it on a crossbow bolt and then firing it (with its 10' radius or so) into their midst when they were in a crowded corridor. That simple tactic can definitely complicate matters.
I had to deal with similar issues throughout my campaign. Here and there I tweaked rules to help, deal with some issues, but I also had to up the power level of my baddies and get a little nasty is other spots.
Bolt of Glory was a real bane for me. It did a number on Khala, but once the PCs got into the Abyss I ruled that it was only half as effective due to the potency of the Abyss. The heroes got around this from time to time, by casting it within the confines of a planar bubble spell, but it did cut back the damage output of Breca (the party's Demonwrecker)
I also upped the hp on several of the demons, and I threw in a few extra spellcasters here and there to dish out some orbs spells etc...
I made liberal use of targeted dispel magics, especially using the like of S'Shara who has such an awesome hide skill that she can easily remain concealed and concentrate on debuffing PCs while minions keep them occupied. She happily snuck in during a couple of nasty fights and sneak attacked heroes (tallying up a couple kills here and there)
Redfang still got rocked even though I doubled his hp. I should have bumped it up to 1600 or so except it wouldn't be possible by 3E rules. I like some of the 4E stuff for making elite in solo monsters and I think if I ran additional 3E games I'd work some of that in, even though it technically violates some of the 3E rules. (I had wanted the one fight in the campaign against a dragon to be pretty memorable, especially since it was supposed to be this ancient linorm of legend.
My group took some abuse during Divided End's Ire, but things weren't too bad for them during the Well's of Darkness or Enemy of my Enemies (though I did give them a nasty ambush in Bagromar's tent with several babau assassins)
However, I went to lengths to make sure the final conflict with Demogorgon was memorable. I used one of his tougher variants. I upped his regeneration to about 50 hp per round. I put a trap at the entrance to Wat Dagon that was essentially a combination of Mordenkeinan's Disjunction and Reciprocal Gyre. It several debuffed the heroes, and by the time they had to fight him, I had depleted a fair amount of their spell resources. His tentacle rot is nasty, and so are his gaze attacks and duel actions. Take full advantage of them.
In the end I was really pleased with how the final battle went. They found it to be the toughest fight of the campaign, which was how I wanted it to be. He is the Prince of Demons, so you can pretty much make him as bad ass as you want, even if it means giving him 2000 hp or whatever is necessary to make it a challenge for your players.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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Yeah I'm looking forward to dropping some reciprocle gyres and avascular mass spells on them...
Redfang will be a beast as will Arendogast the Tarrasque of the Outer Planes... I'm tempted to use Demondragon instead of a balor to back up Demogorgon in Wat Dagon...
Now luckily my PC's will have to really push their boundaries in order to stop Demogorgon as they are dedicated demonslayers. Working with Orcus, Iggwlv, Charon, and Malcanthet will grate on the Paladin and the Harmonium Demonwreckers sensibilities! As is the Sorceress didn't tell the Paly of her deal with Tyralandi.
And quite a few should be eagerly anticipating reports of future carnage.
If your players think their adventures in dealing with the Crimson Fleet was a challenge, soon they will meet up with real challenges.
Good to see you once more Sir Dungeon! ^_^
I see you're up to your usual there Turin...
Good. The more groups of players that get jacked back into line from their powergaming tendencies, the better.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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Oh yes... I have been waiting a while for the PC's levels to fall back into line and Divided's Ire is gonna be their wake up call, a Welcome Center to the Abyss if you will...
The Crimson Fleet (or Doomsguard Faction IMC) was made up of mere mortal and lesser tanar'ri. Olangru and Khala was their first real challenges, but they certainly won't be the last!
I see you're up to your usual there Turin...
Good. The more groups of players that get jacked back into line from their powergaming tendencies, the better.
And we once more get to see long-overdue character deaths littering the messageboards. ^_^
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couple of things:
Turin and PH Dungeon have already said most of what i would suggest.
Don't be afraid to ambush the party...plenty of the baddies (S'Sharra, the bard in Divided Ire, Babau Assassins, Yuan-Ti) are very sneaky, even withoug magical assistance.
Let them have a few mooks to charge in, absorb some attacks, and pop some dispels/disjunctions/chained dispels onto the party. Fade back, let them recast their buffs, and repeat.
Keep them on the move, also...play up the "doomsday clock" aspect of a couple of the adventures, prevent them from resting so much.
Play them to the edge of exhausting their resources, then back off.
If you can time it right, the big fights will be nail-biters while the little ones will be cakewalks that use up resources for later big fights.
-t
Sir Hamster makes an excellent point that is oft overlooked, especially at the latter stage of the STAP.
The baddies have the resources and ability to track the heroes down to their hidey-hole on the Material (or any other plane for the most part) and bushwhack them on the baddies' terms rather than the characters'.
Whether or not you want to GM such horror, of course, is another matter...
Well spells like Mordenkeinan's disjunction can easily remove any antimagic type buffs, and given the amount of magic he can dish out it doesn't make much sense for him to be in a dead magic area. The problem is having 4-6 on 1.
I'm not clear why Redfang soesn't simply use anti-magic techniques against some parties. Surround himself with an aura of it (or have him fighting in a lair which is simply magic dead), and absolutely none of those overpowered spells or magic item buffs will function, except for the very occasional artifact, perhaps. (Nimbus Bow, I'm looking at you.)
Redfang's own natural size, strength, and armour class features will still be in effect, whilst the wizard is reduced to stabbing away with a dagger (or popping with a crossbow in the hope of a crit) and the melee experts are suddenly missing their massive bonuses to strength, armour-class, and initiative, their +5 whatsit-bane swords will just be masterwork, and all the broken supernatural or spell-like abilities of various ultra-prestige classes will fail to work.
Sure if a rogue wants to get in close to attempt a flank & sneak-attack for high damage, they can try that if they want, but without their magically enhanced AC, they've just made themself the number one target for an irate linnorm.Perhaps a fight with Redfang against a party in these conditions was judged to be too much like Arendagost & the totem later on in the path...
I agree with you from a metagaming tactical perspective, but it just doesn't make sense to me from a story perspective, which is why I wouldn't do it. I think it would be better to make him a lot tougher than to try to use underhanded tactics to gimp the PCs. However, it is kind of cool for the PCs to smoke him because it shows them that they really are becoming powerful individuals. Plus it makes them a little cocky, so maybe they'll underestimate some of the other foes they fight later on. Furthermore, there is the nasty dead magic section with Argenhost in the last adventure, so I personally wouldn't want to use that same trick twice, and in the end I'd rather save it for the final adventure where it makes sense in terms of the story.
Well spells like Mordenkeinan's disjunction can easily remove any antimagic type buffs, and given the amount of magic he can dish out it doesn't make much sense for him to be in a dead magic area. The problem is having 4-6 on 1.
I'm not sure that Redfang loses out, in terms of relative power, in a dead magic area, as much as compared to what a party loses out.
Given that the one of the 'top three problems' most people will cite with third edition as being 'Christmas Tree PCs', get te impression that there are a lot of partys wandering around out there loaded to the gills with magic items which they are reliant upon for ther defences and at least enhancing (if not outright responsible for) a high proportion of their damage output.
However I am not familiar with the third edition 'dragon' splatbooks released, and it is possible that there are 'dragon only' spells available to Redfang which more than make up for any piddling magic the PCs attempt to employ.
If anyone out there has such material, are there over-the-top spells they can recommend for Redfang's attention instead of the as-written options?
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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I've got to go back and look at Redfang again but even a dead magic area won't really gimp my goliath barbarian much... hell it'd only encourage him. His Strength is 30 without magical assistance when raging! So that's +26 to hit now at 16th level.
No Redfang will have to try some other chicanery to hammer the PC's... though like the T-REX in ToD he's really just a side trek.
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Turin, I'm having exactly the same problems as the others and I'm afraid some of my players, former DMs themselves, may be too clever for my pathetic revamps of the enemies in Savage Tide. Death Throes proved to be a welcome distraction in the otherwise by-the-numbers Minting House, so I'd love to see what you did to Captain Wyther and Vanthus.
If you have a chance and aren't tired of sharing the hurt with others, my email is charlatans dot web at gmail dot com.
You are an inspiration to us all.
I've got to go back and look at Redfang again but even a dead magic area won't really gimp my goliath barbarian much... hell it'd only encourage him. His Strength is 30 without magical assistance when raging! So that's +26 to hit now at 16th level.
No Redfang will have to try some other chicanery to hammer the PC's... though like the T-REX in ToD he's really just a side trek.
Anti-Life Shell ftw! ^_^ (No save arcane buster boy - and if he can extend his reach somehow beyond 10 ft, then make that a Widened Anti-Life Shell. Failing that, a simple Maze will do the trick.)
Matter of fact, with Redfang's multiple Wish spells per day, MAZE the big boy away (especially if you give him a "me only" greater MM rod of quickening in the form of a ring that disintegrates after its 3rd use) and go to town on the rest of them.
Turin, I'm having exactly the same problems as the others and I'm afraid some of my players, former DMs themselves, may be too clever for my pathetic revamps of the enemies in Savage Tide. Death Throes proved to be a welcome distraction in the otherwise by-the-numbers Minting House, so I'd love to see what you did to Captain Wyther and Vanthus.
If you have a chance and aren't tired of sharing the hurt with others, my email is charlatans dot web at gmail dot com.
You are an inspiration to us all.
I'll happily e-mail you my revised Vanthus.
Remember, with Death Throes, especially with a really ridiculous party, they're like a certain brand of chips: One is never enough.
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I'll happily e-mail you my revised Vanthus.Remember, with Death Throes, especially with a really ridiculous party, they're like a certain brand of chips: One is never enough.
Yes, my group's wizard seemed to think it was odd that with Death Throes going, the Yuan-Ti would risk being near one another when one was near death. I thought that was amusing, as part of the fun of casting it is making sure when you go down, you take everyone with you.
Turin, which campaign journal is yours? I have to comb through and find your Captain Wyther and any other goodies you may have left there.
I'll happily e-mail you my revised Vanthus.Remember, with Death Throes, especially with a really ridiculous party, they're like a certain brand of chips: One is never enough.
Yes, my group's wizard seemed to think it was odd that with Death Throes going, the Yuan-Ti would risk being near one another when one was near death. I thought that was amusing, as part of the fun of casting it is making sure when you go down, you take everyone with you.
Turin, which campaign journal is yours? I have to comb through and find your Captain Wyther and any other goodies you may have left there.
"A Madman GM's the Savage Tide" - my link-fu is weak.
Thankyas Sir Charles, glad to see you're still alive and well. :)
Bows to Sir Charles' superior link-fu
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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OK here's a good question... the Forbiddance Effect of Divided's Ire. It stops any teleportation into the prison, out of the prison, but does it prevent teleportation within the prison???
If it does S'Sharra's got to tumble and fly away from the PC's constantly. I'm thinking it only stops incoming and exiting traffic but inside the grounds you can teleport from point to point (unless you're in a cell, then you're stuck).
-Vrock the Vote!
Note that the prison was 'keyed' as it where by the Big D - and with Vanthus as his right-tentacle death knight, it is well within the realm of possibility to have certain Occupants of Divided's Ire retain their ability to *pouf* around at their discretion.
Of course, once such an occupant succumbs to the other facet of the place's "wards", the 'keying' no longer applies...
Adapt as you see fit primemover003 - after all, as a general rule, the characters have the upper hand. Let Vanthus slap them around and call 'em "kiddo" or something a few times... ^_^
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Yeah I noticed you let your Demons and PC's teleport around, htough that just might have been on the unwarded area over the caldera...
And for that Bolt of Glory... did you Impede the spell or Limit it using the Planar traits or just rule it off the cuff?
Yeah I noticed you let your Demons and PC's teleport around, htough that just might have been on the unwarded area over the caldera...
And for that Bolt of Glory... did you Impede the spell or Limit it using the Planar traits or just rule it off the cuff?
I restricted Bolt of Glory to Domain-only for the Spell Compendium write up - thus, the only character with that Domain got ONE shot of it a day. I had completely overlooked any planar traits on spell effects, which was probably a rather costly lack of memory on my end.
Amazingly, my usually creative players didn't think to procure the funds for a handful of Staves charged up with that spell... either that or I shot it down on the spot. I do not recall which.
The impression I had at the time was that, basically, the structural interiors were restricted, but not the exterior areas nor the 'overlook' where Vanthus broods at.
Although I doubt I put it in his statblock, my version of Vanthus (and his numerous assistants) were all 'keyed' to the forbiddance, permitting them access to their teleport abilities.
In hindsight, I should have rearranged quite a bit of the encounters to favor the baddies more, although it went well enough.
IMO, splatbooks ruined the Savage Tide for me, in equal combination with "GM Fatigue" from not having any real break to just sit at the table and play for a month or two to recharge my batteries. I enjoyed running it - and I know I would have enjoyed it much more had I taken a few sessions' reprieve at the two major break points to enjoy playing the game for a spell. Lesson learned. ^_^
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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Well I haven't actually seen my cleric bust out his Bolt of Glory in some time. His favorite offensive spells seem to be Moonbolt (Maximized for 10 str damage EVEN with a save), Earthreaver (knocks you prone), Earthquake (totalled the Minting House and Demogorgons shrine at the Wreck), Harm, Iceflowers, and now he's got Miracle! Defensively he's been doling out Spell Resistance, Mass which is a pain in the rear!
Our Sorceress has mucho destructive urges as well tossing Disintegrate like it's going out of style. She's murderized every Retriever I've thrown at her. She also loves Cacophonic Burst, Soundlance, & Field of Icy Razors or when pressed Limited Wish. However as she's always under Greater Invis, ext. False life, resistance superior, see invisible and elemental body plus any mass energy resist or spell resist the cleric drops on her she's ripe for a Reciprocal Gyre... Hell that's 5d12 right there for ms. tomb tainted soul!
Yep time to bust out Spell Turning, Sheltered Vitality, Ray Deflection, and Spell Immunity... It'll be amazing to see my Player's eyes as the spells that have been hammering my baddies cease to work!
Don't forget the old reliable Invisibility Purge (at high CL, that means the entire tactical map is denied to the invisible)...
And plug "me only" Greater Invulnerability 'spheroid' items onto main baddies ... that'll kiss off ANY hostile 4th level or less spell coming their way...