|
I find it increasingly funny (in a scary kind of way) that everyone who has a contrary opinion to yours (general you) is a wack-job, nutcase, fruit bat, numbskull etc. (and that goes for both sides of the aisle).
Nah, terms like moonbat and wingnut are out-of-fashion. It's more trendy these days to call liberals 'traitors' and ask 'why do they hate America?'
'Cause that's the first sign of a 'traitor' who 'hates our troops,' is when someone is voting to give them proper body armor, voting to give them proper medical care, voting to give them college benefits, voting to let them spend a few months at home after 12 months of deployment or voting to bring them home. The dude who voted *against* all of that stuff (voted against 12 of the 15 veteran's benefits votes he actually attended, actually, including *TWO OF HIS OWN BILLS*) is the one who is the praised as 'supporting the troops,' apparently.
A rule of law, and, it seems, politics. If you don't have the facts, argue the law. If you don't have the law, argue the facts. If you have neither, pound the table.
There's a lot of table-pounding (appealing to emotion, name-calling, etc.) going on, and, in law at least, that's a sign that the table-pounder knows that they don't have a case, and are just playing to the crowd, trying to win through anger, fear and confusion.
|
|
I mean I'm 35 and he's not even the worst of my lifetime.Interesting, I'm 35 also, and he's the worst president of my lifetime.Hmm, I'm also 35 and have long considered Carter to be the worst president of my lifetime. Reagan, I think I would rank best.
-Skeld
41, and, given the economies of the times, I rate Clinton and Bush Sr. as the two best Presidents of my lifetime. Bush cut his own electoral throat when he violated his pledge not to raise taxes, but he had to do it to pay for the colossal failure of trickle-down economics. For being responsible, manning up and setting the countries economy on the path to healthy recovery, he got shuffled out the door, and Clinton, who had the rare sense to not mess up what Bush Sr. had started, got to reap the benefits.
It's unfortunate that the best Republican President of my lifetime got shut out by his own party for doing the right thing, regardless of political expediency.
The popularity contest that is our system of governance seems predisposed towards punishing grown-ups who take responsibility, and rewarding children who smile and deny their misdeeds.
|
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
Just out of curiosity, what about his presidency makes you feel that he is the worst? I'm talking policies not personality.
Ack. I only came in here to joke around, but I always have to grind this particular axe. I was a McCain supporter in 2000, I'm 51% Obama, 49% McCain currently. But for having just suffered through the Bush presidency, I'd probably be more like 55% McCain, 45% Obama.
I can't forgive Bush for being the president of only his party and not of the country. After 9/11, this country and the world were united as never before. It was a historic moment, and a president skilled in diplomacy and willing to meet halfway could have forged a new nation, even a new world order, that would've been safer and more prosperous than ever before. Bush squandered this moment and reverted to divisive politics.
When I imagine what a Reagan or a Kennedy or, hell, a George H.W. Bush, might have done with that opportunity, it makes me sick to my stomach. Maybe I'm naive and had Al Gore been president he would've seized the moment to ban gasoline; maybe John McCain would've attacked Iraq, Iran, North Korea and Afghanistan on September 12th. Maybe another president would've been just as partisan, just as ready to seize power for the good of their party and not the good of the nation. Or maybe they would've just been less transparent in their attempts.
I don't know for sure, but I remain disgusted at what actually happened.
|
Bill, where are you getting this info from? DailyKos? Huffington...
He sure as heck isn't getting it from Fox, I tell you that.
I'm Canadian. But I'm a very politically aware Canadian, and I don't think you should be separating the personality from the policy entirely.
Reagan had a great personality. For policy he called in experts, and surrounded himself with very smart people, relying on them and their expertise to make good recommendations which he then made into policy. This is why Reagan is regarded as one of the better U.S. presidents.
Bush... well, I don't even need to go into it to contrast him against someone like that. You all already know Bush if you're still reading this thread.
The rest of the world is just sitting around waiting for Bush to be out of office so they can go back to dealing with a rational US leader - and whoever it ends up being (go Obama!), he will be so much better for the US and the world than George Bush ever was.
Anyway, normally this wouldn't even be discussed because, as someone above mentioned, it shouldn't be touched by a 10' pole. Perhaps not even a 15' pole.... :)
|
|
There were also a lot of things I didn't agree with the Reagan administration about. But you know what? I never held Reagan in the same level of contempt. Why? Reagan, personally, at least had a vision of what he wanted America to be. He had a lot of experience across the US, speaking to people, meeting with them and, while I think his vision was pretty foggy, he at least had one. I get no sense of that from Bush. I get one from Cheney, but that one's just a nightmare of presidential power no matter the cost.
I would recommend reading The Cult of the President which describes how the issues that you describe have been on-going ever since the start of the 20th century.
|
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
I still mad at Cheney and Co. for using their evil mental powers to get Firefly cancelled. It was all part of their insidious ploy to fill TV nights with more Teen Soap Operas like The OC. I'm pretty sure Cheney sits on some exec boards at studios that produce that crap.
I forgot about that one. Damnit, that still pisses me off too. Plus, it was really unnecessary for Cheney to show up on Sesame Street and sucker punch Elmo like that. WTF?!?!
But let's not be political about it. Al Gore is a total dick - when he invented the internet he put in all sorts of cheatcodes and sneaky backdoors. The other day, I was playing Halo 3 with him and he didn't die from a headshot. Instead, he just chuckled and killed me with a custom tootsie-pop gun. Then he told me to turn off my f&%$ing television and quit enlarging my carbon footprint. Dick.
I had no idea that so many posters here have such drastically different opinions and values from me.
There's people here that I've joked with and smiled at. Now when I see their posts, all I'm gonna think is "Your political beliefs are naive and abhorrent to me."
I wish I hadn't read this thread.
Oh well, no going back now.
|
|
But let's not be political about it. Al Gore is a total dick - when he invented the internet he put in all sorts of cheatcodes and sneaky backdoors. The other day, I was playing Halo 3 with him and he didn't die from a headshot. Instead, he just chuckled and killed me with a custom tootsie-pop gun. Then he told me to turn off my f@!@ing television and quit enlarging my carbon footprint. Dick.
Don't forget about how he teabagged your corpse and asked if you were having some personal climate warming. p0wn3d!!!!11!111
|
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
"Your political beliefs are naive and abhorrent to me."
Ah yes, lack of understanding is why people have different political values. How astute.
I'd say it's naieve to think that you can go to a place like this that is not targeting a particular political idealogy and not find a range of views, some of which will inevitably conflict with your own tightly held beliefs. Sorry that the world has diverse points of view and that makes you uncomfortable.
|
|
Just out of curiosity, what about his presidency makes you feel that he is the worst? I'm talking policies not personality.I mean I'm 35 and he's not even the worst of my lifetime.Interesting, I'm 35 also, and he's the worst president of my lifetime. Perspective is a funny thing. Granted, I come from an archaeology background, so I look at the long game differently.
Well, first of all, thank you to Bill Dunn for doing my work for me. I can only really echo that list as my main points of contention.
Of Bill’s list, I think that the mismanagement of the war(s) is/are the most damning of his failures. Not finishing one before started a bigger second…and now having the original one flaring back up. Consistently not listening to any of his advisors except for the couple that were telling him what he wanted to hear. Don’t agree general? Set your stars by the door on the way out. Getting the Mission Accomplished cart before the horse by a number of years doesn’t help. I think a lot of the way the war in Iraq was prosecuted is emblematic of many of his policy failures. I know I can’t do as good of a job describing my stances as I should.
I live in Killeen and work at Fort Hood. I use to be an archaeologist (curator, specifically) working for the Army (from 2000 to 2007) until my contract was not renewed because we don’t have budgets for those types of projects any more. I am now a Test Officer working for the Army. I work to make sure that different things the soldiers rely on can talk to each other. I like it very much that I may be helping to keep kids alive out there. I also like it that I am one of the checks on big corps that sell half-functioning ‘miracle systems’ to the Army and rake in massive bank.
I have lots of Army friends. More than 90% of the people I have gamed with for the past 7 years have been military or military spouses. I help send care packets to folks overseas (a lot of times I put in either comic books or some gaming equipment). I have had 3 friends killed in Iraq and have several others who have been injured (mentally if not physically)(and that means I’m pretty lucky not having more die). I am, and have always been an independent. I am not a Dem, I am not a Repub, I am not Green, Libertarian, Alsatian, Bull-Moose, Torry, Contrarian, Myticlorian, or any other one thing. I tend to skew hard to the liberal side of most issues, but not to the point where I shut out everyone else and I definitely don’t think that just because someone has a view that is 180 degrees from mine it is necessarily wrong. I know I don’t have the best head for political games, I get way too annoyed with them way too easily. I do try to be an informed voter and I try to always be engaged in voting, even if it’s the primaries in an off year and the only things on the ballot are propositions. The first year here in Texas I didn’t vote because I had just moved a month before and I would rather not be counted than vote on issues I have not understanding of. To summarize, I may not be the most responsible voter out there, but I at least put forth an effort.
I try to get info from a variety of sources… local newspaper (such as it is), I look at broadcast news from a lot of places (NPR, CNN, BBC, some of the networks here and there). I get some info from blogs out there in the internets (the series of tubes... not a dumptruck). I go to HuffPo occasionally, but a lot of it makes me roll my eyes. I've never been to DailyKos. I think that Fox News is pretty much a joke that’s gone on too long, not because of the content, but because of pretense at being objective. I still maintain that there is no ‘Liberal Media Bias’, it is ‘Sensationalist Media Bias’…a fundamentally different creature.
|
|
I still maintain that there is no ‘Liberal Media Bias’, it is ‘Sensationalist Media Bias’…a fundamentally different creature.
So true.
McCain and Obama could be seen goose-stepping in a parade with Muqtada Al-Sadr, Lenin's zombified corpse and Satan, and it would be pushed off the air by the next appearance of Britney's skirt riding up.
The phony outrage is the worst, particularly when it so-often comes from people who have said stuff like 'those people ought to be rounded up and shot.' Manufactured drama. "OMG, he said WHAT! Oh, no she din't!"
Just out of curiosity, what about his presidency makes you feel that he is the worst? I'm talking policies not personality.I mean I'm 35 and he's not even the worst of my lifetime.Interesting, I'm 35 also, and he's the worst president of my lifetime. Perspective is a funny thing. Granted, I come from an archaeology background, so I look at the long game differently.
Well, first of all, thank you to Bill Dunn for doing my work for me. I can only really echo that list as my main points of contention.
Of Bill’s list, I think that the mismanagement of the war(s) is/are the most damning of his failures. Not finishing one before started a bigger second…and now having the original one flaring back up. Consistently not listening to any of his advisors except for the couple that were telling him what he wanted to hear. Don’t agree general? Set your stars by the door on the way out. Getting the Mission Accomplished cart before the horse by a number of years doesn’t help. I think a lot of the way the war in Iraq was prosecuted is emblematic of many of his policy failures. I know I can’t do as good of a job describing my stances as I should.
I live in Killeen and work at Fort Hood. I use to be an archaeologist (curator, specifically) working for the Army (from 2000 to 2007) until my contract was not renewed because we don’t have budgets for those types of projects any more. I am now a Test Officer working for the Army. I work to make sure that different things the soldiers rely on can talk to each other. I like it very much that I may be helping to keep kids alive out there. I also like it that I am one of the checks on big corps that sell half-functioning ‘miracle systems’ to the Army and rake in massive bank.
I have lots of Army friends. More than 90% of the people I have gamed with for the past 7 years have been military or military spouses. I help send care packets to folks overseas (a lot...
I'm just curious to what you have against Fox News? I will admit there is a slant towards conservatives but it is no where as bias as CNN and all the zillion NBC networks(liberal slant). BTW, I'm from your area as well and I think I've bumped into you at Book Stan'. Do you wear glasses and have facial hair?
"Your political beliefs are naive and abhorrent to me."Ah yes, lack of understanding is why people have different political values. How astute.
I'd say it's naieve to think that you can go to a place like this that is not targeting a particular political idealogy and not find a range of views, some of which will inevitably conflict with your own tightly held beliefs. Sorry that the world has diverse points of view and that makes you uncomfortable.
I don't really think it's the fact that people have diverse points of view that makes me uncomfortable.
The issue for me is more like I enjoyed thinking that many of the posters here are people that in real life, I could have enjoyed chilling out with.Now that I realize that in real life we probably wouldn't get along or be able to talk without arguing, that illusion is gone.It's a little disappointing.
Granted, it's a very minor disappointment in the grand scheme of things.But still, whether it's legitimate or not, my enjoyment of these forums will be a bit diminished.
It's not that I wish that others didn't have different opinons from me, it's just that I wish that I didn't know about them. That'll teach me to read political threads on a game forum I guess.
|
|
Jenkies! I'm outed!! Yeah, that's <probably>me, but I'm normally over at America's Heros now. I go back to talk to Earl now and then, but I'm on the 'Save Earl' bandwagon. The actual owner of BookStan' (Terry) is (completely in my opinion) a desetable person who treats his employees like crap. I hope that BookStan' folds so Earl can be free.
Edit: added the <probably> as I'm sure I'm not the only bearded, bespectacled customer...
|
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
I doubt I'd agree with much regarding politics with Aberzombie, but I'd throw dice down with that undead brain-chewer any day of the week. I've gone back and forth with Moff Rimmer for pages at a time about religion and had dinner with him when he was in town last week. We didn't throw chairs or anything (well, at least not at each other).
I don't see what politics has to do with someone being a good friend (or even a good person for that matter).
"Your political beliefs are naive and abhorrent to me."Ah yes, lack of understanding is why people have different political values. How astute.
I'd say it's naieve to think that you can go to a place like this that is not targeting a particular political idealogy and not find a range of views, some of which will inevitably conflict with your own tightly held beliefs. Sorry that the world has diverse points of view and that makes you uncomfortable.
I don't really think it's the fact that people have diverse points of view that makes me uncomfortable.
The issue for me is more like I enjoyed thinking that many of the posters here are people that in real life, I could have enjoyed chilling out with.
Now that I realize that in real life we probably wouldn't get along or be able to talk without arguing, that illusion is gone.It's a little disappointing.
Granted, it's a very minor disappointment in the grand scheme of things.But still, whether it's legitimate or not, my enjoyment of these forums will be a bit diminished.
It's not that I wish that others didn't have different opinons from me, it's just that I wish that I didn't know about them. That'll teach me to read political threads on a game forum I guess.
I don't see where somewhere's politcal stance should make a difference whether you could get along with somebody. I am a staunch conservative and I have many friends that are liberal. I've even had liberal girlfriends. We might argue a little here and there over politics but nothing comes from it.
I'm just curious to what you have against Fox News? I will admit there is a slant towards conservatives but it is no where as bias[ed] as CNN and all the zillion NBC networks (liberal slant).
Fox is equally biased (right-wing slant), but claims not to be. I watch Fox News and then CNN and they cancel each other out; I'm left with no news at all. For example, the exact same source material from Reuters might give me:
CNN: "Insane megalomaniac Bush spies on Americans!"
Fox: "Hero president valiantly smites terrorists single-handed!"
|
|
I doubt I'd agree with much regarding politics with Aberzombie, but I'd throw dice down with that undead brain-chewer any day of the week. I've gone back and forth with Moff Rimmer for pages at a time about religion and had dinner with him when he was in town last week. We didn't throw chairs or anything (well, at least not at each other).
I don't see what politics has to do with someone being a good friend (or even a good person for that matter).
Yes, but you are a Bella Sara Charter Subscriber and I'm pretty sure Moff Rimmer is a horse fancier... so you have that commonality.
And yeah. Like I said, I'm a very liberal person, but I have some very close conservative friends. I don't agree with 'em on some issues, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't bail them out of jail.
Unless it were close to elections, of course... ;-)
Jenkies! I'm outed!! Yeah, that's <probably>me, but I'm normally over at America's Heros now. I go back to talk to Earl now and then, but I'm on the 'Save Earl' bandwagon. The actual owner of BookStan' (Terry) is (completely in my opinion) a desetable person who treats his employees like crap. I hope that BookStan' folds so Earl can be free.
Edit: added the <probably> as I'm sure I'm not the only bearded, bespectacled customer...
I talked to you one time I could have sworn your name was Gavin. While conversing with you U told me were an archaelogist. Yeah, Earl doesn't look too happy these days. I hope things go right for him. He's a hell of a nice guy.
|
|
I talked to you one time I could have sworn your name was Gavin. While conversing with you U told me were an archaelogist. Yeah, Earl doesn't look too happy these days. I hope things go right for him. He's a hell of a nice guy.Jenkies! I'm outed!! Yeah, that's <probably>me, but I'm normally over at America's Heros now. I go back to talk to Earl now and then, but I'm on the 'Save Earl' bandwagon. The actual owner of BookStan' (Terry) is (completely in my opinion) a desetable person who treats his employees like crap. I hope that BookStan' folds so Earl can be free.
Edit: added the <probably> as I'm sure I'm not the only bearded, bespectacled customer...
Seems pretty damning evidence that it was me, alright, LOL.
And yeah, Earl is a very good guy.
I doubt I'd agree with much regarding politics with Aberzombie, but I'd throw dice down with that undead brain-chewer any day of the week. I've gone back and forth with Moff Rimmer for pages at a time about religion and had dinner with him when he was in town last week. We didn't throw chairs or anything (well, at least not at each other).
I don't see what politics has to do with someone being a good friend.
I agree that politics shouldn't have anything to do with liking or not liking someone.
But it still does.I've met people that seem real warm and friendly like, but they'll freeze up real fast when they find out who you voted for in 2000.
It's like I'll be laughing at some poster cuz he made a dumb joke about a half-orc, a one armed priest, and a blind rabbi.
And I'll be like "Man! That guy's funny!"
But then I'll remember that he supports an amendment that allows married gay baby seals to torture third trimester abortions in Guantanamo Bay.
And then I'll be like " Oh wait a minute. that guy's actually a jerk!"
I guess my point is, I want to be able to say "Man! that guy's funny!" Without having to say "That guy's actually a jerk."
Now, I really like tha Paizo message boards. I like how open they are. I like that we're expected to moderate ourselves. And I'd never say that there should be a "no politics" rule or anything like that. I'm just saying that I should make my own personal "no politics" policy in order to avoid getting heated up and losing the generally positive feeling I get from reading the posts here.
I'm just curious to what you have against Fox News? I will admit there is a slant towards conservatives but it is no where as bias[ed] as CNN and all the zillion NBC networks (liberal slant).Fox is equally biased (right-wing slant), but claims not to be. I watch Fox News and then CNN and they cancel each other out; I'm left with no news at all. For example, the exact same source material from Reuters might give me:
CNN: "Insane megalomaniac Bush spies on Americans!"
Fox: "Hero president valiantly smites terrorists single-handed!"
You might be right, but there are a LOT of liberals on FOX(Colmes,Rivera,Smith....). Besides Glen Beck there really aren't any conservatives on the other networks anymore.
|
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
I agree that politics shouldn't have anything to do with liking or not liking someone.
But it still does.
I've met people that seem real warm and friendly like, but they'll freeze up real fast when they find out who you voted for in 2000.
It's like I'll be laughing at some poster cuz he made a dumb joke about a half-orc, a one armed priest, and a blind rabbi.
And I'll be like "Man! That guy's funny!"
But then I'll remember that he supports an amendment that allows married gay baby seals to torture third trimester abortions in Guantanamo Bay.
And then I'll be like " Oh wait a minute. that guy's actually a jerk!"
Except no one believes anything like that. I'd say a first step is respecting the fact that other people have different political views from you and starting from there. A significant problem with political discourse these days is that it operates from the assumption that the other side is ignorant/evil/etc. That's b#@&!*#$. People will disagree on any number of topics and the only way to coexist is to either kill/suppress those with whom you disagree or find a way to get along, which inevitably requires some amount of compromise and understanding. Idealogues who cannot compromise or even begin to accept the idea that someone else can disagree with them and not be evil/dumb do more damage to this country than any political philosophy they may espouse.
The one thing I try to keep in mind is I like just about everybody here way, way better than I like any politician, living or dead. And I value the interactions with the people here infinitely more than and "relationship" I have with any politician or political party. Because if I'm broken down on the side of the road some day, it's people like you I'm hoping will be passing by, not some motorcade or rally bus.
I don't dislike politicians. They have pretty tough jobs, and it takes a unique mix of ambition and yearning for importance to make someone want to wade through the crap they have to go through. Still, you guys and people like you are what's really important, and I don't want to blow the possibility of some laughs or insight over things that us hating each other's guts over either isn't going to change, or is going to make worse.
I'm proud to say I have voted in every election I have been eligible for. But being at odds with my neighbors, real or virtual, over what happens in Washington? Not the way I want to go.
You might be right, but there are a LOT of liberals on FOX(Colmes,Rivera,Smith....). Besides Glen Beck there really aren't any conservatives on the other networks anymore.
Don't bother mentioning Colmes. It's Hannity's show, quite obviously. Colmes is pretty much just a token.
But you're forgetting Robert Novak who appears a lot on CNN, Tucker Carlson, Joe Scarborough, and Pat Buchanan on MSNBC.
Except no one believes anything like that. I'd say a first step is respecting the fact that other people have different political views from you and starting from there. A significant problem with political discourse these days is that it operates from the assumption that the other side is ignorant/evil/etc. That's b~&&%*~@. People will disagree on any number of topics and the only way to coexist is to either kill/suppress those with whom you disagree or find a way to get along, which inevitably requires some amount of compromise and understanding. Idealogues who cannot compromise or even begin to accept the idea that someone else can disagree with them and not be evil/dumb do more damage to this country than any political philosophy they may espouse.
It's like I'll be laughing at some poster cuz he made a dumb joke about a half-orc, a one armed priest, and a blind rabbi.
And I'll be like "Man! That guy's funny!"
But then I'll remember that he supports an amendment that allows married gay baby seals to torture third trimester abortions in Guantanamo Bay.
And then I'll be like " Oh wait a minute. that guy's actually a jerk!"
Yes. I'm aware(or at least I hope) that nobody believes that married gay baby seals should torture third trimester abortions. I was trying to come up with a nonsensical non-partisan imaginary example so as not to offend anyone.
I understand your point though. I probably do need to examine my own nutty self when it comes to my emotional reactions to opposing ideologys. And I honestly do appreciate you not so gently pointing that out to me.I also believe that when taken to extremes,liberalism and conservatism are profoundly stupid.
Protesting a production of a Shakespeare play for being detrimental to family values is just as stupid as protesting a production of a Shakespeare play for promoting hetero-normative values.
But politics can be really personal too. Decisions that politicians make can and do have serious repercussions for real people.
For an example of what I'm talking about, just check out Walther Reed Hospital in D.C. It's hard to take politics lightly when your family comes out of that hospital in tears.
It's fine to talk about compromise and coming around to other people's points of view when you're discussing ideas. But when those ideas become real, and people's lives are changed, or even wrecked as a result, it becomes a little harder to talk about political ideas with a cool head.
At least for me it does. And again, that's probably why I should avoid talking politics with strangers.
|
|
I think you are riding HM a little hard, Sebastian. He is giving an honest reaction and agreeing that it doesn't completely make sense. I use to take politics a lot more personally when I was younger, so I find it pretty easy to empathize with what he's saying. I don't disagree with the jist of what you're saying, but I think you could ramp it down a bit... he's not saying "people who disagree with me are evil. Kill 'em." You are pretty much putting that on him. He's just saying that he probably needs to pop up a self-imposed barrier to make it easier for him to enjoy the site.
Just wrap the iron fist in velvet, man.
You might be right, but there are a LOT of liberals on FOX(Colmes,Rivera,Smith....). Besides Glen Beck there really aren't any conservatives on the other networks anymore.Don't bother mentioning Colmes. It's Hannity's show, quite obviously. Colmes is pretty much just a token.
But you're forgetting Robert Novak who appears a lot on CNN, Tucker Carlson, Joe Scarborough, and Pat Buchanan on MSNBC.
Yeah, you're right. I forgot about those guys.
I think you are riding HM a little hard, Sebastian. He is giving an honest reaction and agreeing that it doesn't completely make sense. I use to take politics a lot more personally when I was younger, so I find it pretty easy to empathize with what he's saying. I don't disagree with the jist of what you're saying, but I think you could ramp it down a bit... he's not saying "people who disagree with me are evil. Kill 'em." You are pretty much putting that on him. He's just saying that he probably needs to pop up a self-imposed barrier to make it easier for him to enjoy the site.
Just wrap the iron fist in velvet, man.
It's cool. I'm used to Sebastian's style by now. If I seem uncomfortable at all it's because I'm examining my own reactions and emotions in regards to politics and current events. It's not cause mean old Sebastian was harsh with me.
Sebastian seems kind of nice actually in a wierd way.I appreciate the thought though Gav. Thanks.
|
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
I think you are riding HM a little hard, Sebastian. He is giving an honest reaction and agreeing that it doesn't completely make sense. I use to take politics a lot more personally when I was younger, so I find it pretty easy to empathize with what he's saying. I don't disagree with the jist of what you're saying, but I think you could ramp it down a bit... he's not saying "people who disagree with me are evil. Kill 'em." You are pretty much putting that on him. He's just saying that he probably needs to pop up a self-imposed barrier to make it easier for him to enjoy the site.
Just wrap the iron fist in velvet, man.
For a change, abuse is not my actual intent. I edited my first post back and forth before settling back into something less aggressive, and haven't been meaning to ride him. I can understand not wanting to engage in political debates, I generally feel the same way. I just get so frustrated at the level of polarization in the country that people (and I don't necessarily mean HM here, it's just his initial post set me off on this) will claim that those with whom they disagree are evil/ignorant. The blame lies largely in the media, which encourages you to pick a side and root for your team no matter what. The problem is, this isn't f!%+ing baseball. I am a strong believer in a divided government in which neither party controls the political agenda and both parties must work together to find a solution that doesn't run roughshod over half the people in the country. That's my political axe, and I shall cease grinding it now.
And, I must say, to his credit, HM has not been an excellent person to have this discussion and has conducted himself solidly throughout. I am discouraged that he feels politics is a barrier to having a relationship with a person, but he has been open and engaged and that's worth a lot.
|
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
Protesting a production of a Shakespeare play for being detrimental to family values is just as stupid as protesting a production of a Shakespeare play for promoting hetero-normative values.
You're giving me flashbacks to undergrad. I had a very PCU-ish college experience. It was horrible and painfully stupid. The funniest thing was how I went from being the most liberal douchebag in my small town in Western Michigan to the Rush Limbaugh of my college campus. Note that my political positions hadn't really changed that much, just my environment.
The funniest thing was how I went from being the most liberal douchebag in my small town in Western Michigan to the Rush Limbaugh of my college campus. Note that my political positions hadn't really changed that much, just my environment.
Same deal in reverse, with me moving from NY to TX. I went from right-wing fascist hawk to bleeding-heart liberal wiener so fast I never quite figured out when it happened. Maybe while driving through Mississippi.
Then again, when I was a kid, the Democrats were a bible-thumpin', fiscally irresponsible, big government party. Now that I'm a grown-up, I see that the Republicans are a bible-thumpin', fiscally irresponsible, big government party.
What, no one gets their news from Al Jazeera?
Alalam? Anyone?
Surely there is a Xinhuanet subscriber out there?
What, no one gets their news from Al Jazeera?
I subscribe to JewsOnFirst... does that count?
What, no one gets their news from Al Jazeera?I subscribe to JewsOnFirst... does that count?
I am all for any site that supports His Noodly Goodness.
What, no one gets their news from Al Jazeera?I subscribe to JewsOnFirst... does that count?
I am all for any site that supports His Noodly Goodness.
|
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
|
I would just like to chime in here and state that I am utterly, without question, the most politically asinine and flippant person any of you can or will ever know.
This is why I do not put my 2 cents in on these threads.
Because you'd all hate me.
Even more than you already do.
What, no one gets their news from Al Jazeera?
Alalam? Anyone?
Surely there is a Xinhuanet subscriber out there?
Raises hand
Well I click on ol' Al Jazeera once in a while to keep my sad Arabic skills from rusting completely away. Al Quds and Al Jamaleyia as well. Reminds me, I haven't been spending enough time on that, got sucked into the word games threads....
LA D&D ILLA PATHFINDER! WA PAIZO RASULU PATHFINDER! PAIZOHU AKBAR!
sorry, please return to your regularly scheduled political debate.
|
|
You might be right, but there are a LOT of liberals on FOX(Colmes,Rivera,Smith....). Besides Glen Beck there really aren't any conservatives on the other networks anymore.I'm just curious to what you have against Fox News? I will admit there is a slant towards conservatives but it is no where as bias[ed] as CNN and all the zillion NBC networks (liberal slant).Fox is equally biased (right-wing slant), but claims not to be. I watch Fox News and then CNN and they cancel each other out; I'm left with no news at all. For example, the exact same source material from Reuters might give me:
CNN: "Insane megalomaniac Bush spies on Americans!"
Fox: "Hero president valiantly smites terrorists single-handed!"
You're joking, right? Colmes is a retarded ornagutang punching bag to give Hannity (of the slippery slope) a pretend antagonist who could never actually put up a fight. Rivera? I thought he was a moderate, but then again I can never actually listen to him with that Rancor snow beast he wears under his nose waving at me.
All in all, CNN and Fox blow equally (I'm convinced that Lou Dobb's is the Leader from the Hulk comic. Have you looked at that enormous head?!?). I limit my news consumption to AP and Reuters, and even then I occasionally abandon a supposed "news" piece that is a thinly disguised editorial.
Cable news is an abomination that only inspires hatred and division.
|
|
Just out of curiosity, what about his presidency makes you feel that he is the worst? I'm talking policies not personality.I can't forgive Bush for being the president of only his party and not of the country. After 9/11, this country and the world were united as never before. It was a historic moment, and a president skilled in diplomacy and willing to meet halfway could have forged a new nation, even a new world order, that would've been safer and more prosperous than ever before. Bush squandered this moment and reverted to divisive politics.
When I imagine what a Reagan or a Kennedy or, hell, a George H.W. Bush, might have done with that opportunity, it makes me sick to my stomach. Maybe I'm naive and had Al Gore been president he would've seized the moment to ban gasoline; maybe John McCain would've attacked Iraq, Iran, North Korea and Afghanistan on September 12th. Maybe another president would've been just as partisan, just as ready to seize power for the good of their party and not the good of the nation. Or maybe they would've just been less transparent in their attempts.
I don't know for sure, but I remain disgusted at what actually happened.
Never have truer words been stated on this site. As a historian, the big picture is my focus. Unfortunately, never has short term benefit been so clearly the goal of an administration. Bush squandered a golden opportunity to achieve greatness, and must now settle for mediocrity. To be fair, I am unsure how much of the decision was spurred by his neo-con advisors (who abandoned many of the core values of teh Republican party).
And why the hell wasn't the government issuing war bonds to defray the cost of Afghanistan and Iraq? I know many people who would have purchased those to support the troops/president/defray war costs, or whatever reason they felt merited the expense. In an attempt to convince the public that we are not, in fact at war, substantial damage to the value of the dollar occured. The thing is, there are many patriotic Americans who would have been happy to help avoid that.
|
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
Because you'd all hate me.Even more than you already do.
Impossible.
The power of my hate for you is capable of boiling lead. If sheds light that is visible up to a mile away. It actually powers the entire western seaboard. My hatred for you sings me to sleep at night, with lyrics describing your painful death. If I were to hate you any more, I would redefine hatred into a new emotion never before witnessed by mankind.
|
I had no idea that so many posters here have such drastically different opinions and values from me.
There's people here that I've joked with and smiled at. Now when I see their posts, all I'm gonna think is "Your political beliefs are naive and abhorrent to me."
I wish I hadn't read this thread.
Oh well, no going back now.
I tend to agree with you. It disturbs me that there are those that think Carter was a worse President than Bush. I don't think I could be friends with someone if I knew they felt that way. Because if they felt that way, they probably feel torture is okay in the name of defense, that illegal wiretapping is cool, that pre-emptive war is the way to go and that it's okay to hire cronies into positions of power no matter their qualifications but because they voted Republican. I find these beliefs abhorrent and why would I want to overlook these things just because the person was a good gamer or told funny jokes? Who you consider heroic and who you consider a villain say a LOT about who you are and what you stand for. I would do my best to be civil to these folks on the internet, but I wouldn't want to eat dinner with them or be buddies with them. Dubya is not a good man; he's not a role model; he shouldn't be remembered by history with fondness and smiles. Carter may have been an inefficient, wallflower of a president that made a lot of mistakes, but he didn't cost us thousands of American lives for a lie; he didn't ignore the will of the majority of the American population; he didn't act so arrogant as to think he knew better than the people he served what was best for his country. He tried to do a good job; he didn't have an agenda.
I'm sure everyone on this site are cool people in their own ways; maybe it makes me less of a person. I can live with that. I know what I hold to be dear and true; and I want people close to me that share my values. Does that make sense? Is that a crime? We used to be a country where we valued life and civil liberties; can we get back to that place?
BTW, I watch MSNBC over CNN. Keith Olbermann is the man.
Sorry if I ruffle any feathers, but this is my line in the sand. I now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.
|
|
I tend to agree with you. It disturbs me that there are those that think Carter was a worse President than Bush. I don't think I could be friends with someone if I knew they felt that way. Because if they felt that way, they probably feel torture is okay in the name of defense, that illegal wiretapping is cool, that pre-emptive war is the way to go and that it's okay to hire cronies into positions of power no matter their qualifications but because they voted Republican.I had no idea that so many posters here have such drastically different opinions and values from me.
There's people here that I've joked with and smiled at. Now when I see their posts, all I'm gonna think is "Your political beliefs are naive and abhorrent to me."
I wish I hadn't read this thread.
Oh well, no going back now.
Be careful about this style of thinking. One of my best friends is a polar opposite of me politically. Its definately led to some arguments over the years, but we still play in a weekly Ptolus campaign. Diversity is the spice of life and no one has a lock on the "truth". Without representation for both sides of the political spectrum, our nation will likely slide into tyranny and collapse. My beliefs can be summed up in the following quote:
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" Evelyn Beatrice Hall
Note for full disclosure: I did not say who's death I would be willing to defend to. :)
QFT Underling. Despising someone for differing political views is a dangerous slope to slide down. The next thing that goes is the open "marketplace of ideas" that has kept America the prosperous and free nation that it is. Many complain that it ISN'T free anymore, but I suggest that when measured up to most other countries we do pretty well. The fact that we can even argue about politics openly without worry puts us ahead of many other nations.
I think Bush is horrid. I also think him and his coterie have perverted the original goals of the Republican party as espoused by presidents like Reagan. I also think that Carter wasn't a very good president. I think he won election because the public had become very tired of the Nixon/Vietnam years and wanted change. I am afraid that Sen Obama is cut from the same cloth. Does that mean that either one is a bad person? No. I just worry about Sen. Obama's experience, much as I think America suffered under Carter's inexperience.
Due to our lovely Electoral vote allocations though, my vote will be going to Sen. Obama no matter who I vote for (Massachusetts resident) so I can laugh and vote for whoever there is left that isn't from either major party or Bob Barr. I think that the next few years will be very interesting no matter who takes the prize.
I wish Obama would pick General Petraeus as his running-mate. Or Fox Fallon. Someone to give him some military credibility. If he picks "just another" liberal senator, he leaves us an election in which old-school fiscal conservatives have no one to vote for.