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It can be useful to have examples for alignments. Here's the matrix I use as examples when my players are confused. I'd be interested to see what others think. One quick note: I've deliberately avoided using any historical people in their real context. I do use a few in their legendary/fictionalized context, such as Wyatt Earp or William Wallace specifically from the movies Tombstone and Braveheart. Fictional characters and legends are a LOT easier to pigeonhole into alignments than real humans. I'm also deliberately trying to keep any discussion of real-world religion and politics OFF of this list, so you won't see figures like Buddha or Satan on here, either. Basically the guides I've used for whether something is sufficiently fictionalized to use are: "Would the source material make a historian specializing in that particular period cringe?" and "Has the person been dead at least 75 years?" If the answer to both of those questions is yes, the characters are fair game. :) Finally, I've also disqualified any characters that came from RPGs or their settings. Lord Soth, Drizzt, Mordenkainen, Karzoug, Urza, Dunkelzahn, and Saulot will not be on this list, either (you'll see one questionable exception under Chaotic Evil). Aside from those rules, pretty much no type of media is off-limits. I've pulled characters from TV, movies, books, comic books, webcomics, and mythology. I've tried to come up with five for each. What do you all think? Are there better examples I can be using?
Lawful Good
1. Solomon Kane (The Savage Tales of Solomon Kane)
2. Sir Gallahad (Arthurian Myth)
3. Hartigan (Sin City)
4. Maximus (Gladiator)
5. The Confessor (Astro City)
Honorable Mentions: Jean-Luc Picard (Star Trek: TNG), Seito (Ruroni Kenshin), Wolfwood (Trigun)
Neutral Good
1. Spider-Man (Marvel Comics)
2. Jean Veljean (Les Miserables)
3. Harry Potter (Harry Potter)
4. The Leper King (Kingdom of Heaven)
5. Hellboy (Hellboy)
Honorable Mentions: The Flash (DC Comics), Kenshin (Ruroni Kenshin)
Chaotic Good
1. Odysseus (Greek Mythology)
2. Vash the Stampede (Trigun)
3. Morpheus (The Matrix)
4. Malcolm Reynolds (Firefly)
5. William Wallace (Braveheart)
Lawful Neutral
1. Wyatt Earp (Tombstone)
2. Creasy (Man on Fire)
3. John Preston (Equilibrium)
4. Inspector Javert (Les Miserables)
5. Jack Bauer (24)
Neutral
1. Sam (Ronin)
2. Gilbert Norrel (Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrel)
3. Geralt the Witcher (The Witcher)
4. Steeljack (Astro City)
5. Vito Corleone (The Godfather)
Chaotic Neutral
1. Jack Sparrow (Pirates of the Caribbean)
2. Jayne Cobb (Firefly)
3. The Caller (Phone Booth)
4. "Funny Man" Rocco (The Boondock Saints)
5. Doc Holliday (Tombstone)
Lawful Evil
1. Ra's Al Ghul (Batman Begins)
2. Vic Mackey (The Shield)
3. Judge Frolo (The Hunchback of Notre Dame)
4. Darth Vader (Star Wars)
5. Hans (Die Hard)
Neutral Evil
1. Darken Rahl (Wizard's First Rule)
2. Syndrome (The Incredibles)
3. SHODAN (System Shock)
4. Emperor Palpatine/Darth Sideous (Star Wars)
5. Commodus (Gladiator)
Chaotic Evil
1. The Joker (The Dark Knight)
2. The Gentleman With the Thistledown Hair (Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrel)
3. Charlie Prince (3:10 to Yuma)
4. Belkar Bitterleaf (Order of the Stick)
5. Den Laurey (Troubleshooter)
Chaotic Evil
Belkar Bitterleaf
That is completely unproven, and attempts to discern his alignment with potentially hazardous mean (i.e. detect evil) are a violations of rights
Sticking with Star Wars, since everyone knows it, I would say Han starts Ep IV as CN and gradually changes to CG. In the expanded universe books set after Ep VI, I supposed you could say he moves more toward LG as he and Leia become involved in the government of the New Republic. Anakain I would say is CG as a young Jedi, but his head really spins as he moves toward the diametric alignment, LE, as Darth Vader. Leia is interesting. Obviously she is a rebel, which is chaotic, but she really believes in the virtue of law and order. I guess you could say she is situationally CG during the Rebellion, but really LG. I would say Yoda is NG, perhaps close to N because he understands the yin and yang of the Force. Although he rarely channels the Dark Side, he understands that Dark and Light are merely different aspects of the Force.
Other prominent fictional characters which seem clear-cut, I would say Superman LG, Wolverine CG.
[prediction]This thread's gonna get ugly.[/prediction]
I love thinking about and reading these sorts of lists, though I have to say I don't think I've ever seen these discussed without someone getting mad. I've riled up a few fellow posters before myself. My opinion about what constitutes good and especially lawful good is pretty exclusive.
Anyway, I haven't seen one of these discussions here, so hopefully I'll be proven wrong.
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[prediction]This thread's gonna get ugly.[/prediction]Naw. I have great faith in our off-topic forum.
So where's James T. Kirk? I'd say "chaotic lusty" but that ain't an option.
James T. Kirk is Awesome Good!
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Jean Valjean is MOST DEFINETLY LG.
Javert goes from LG to LE.
-W. E. Ray
I had Javert down as LN ("I've tried to live my life without breaking a single rule." -LN), not LG. You may have a point on Valjean, though. If I'm going to take Valjean off the NG list and move him to LG, who do I drop in in his place?
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[prediction]This thread's gonna get ugly.[/prediction]
I love thinking about and reading these sorts of lists, though I have to say I don't think I've ever seen these discussed without someone getting mad. I've riled up a few fellow posters before myself. My opinion about what constitutes good and especially lawful good is pretty exclusive.
Anyway, I haven't seen one of these discussions here, so hopefully I'll be proven wrong.
I sure HOPE not. I'm trying to keep any sort of real-world stuff out of this, both for the purposes of the list and for the purpose of keeping the thread civil.
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Sticking with Star Wars, since everyone knows it, I would say Han starts Ep IV as CN and gradually changes to CG. In the expanded universe books set after Ep VI, I supposed you could say he moves more toward LG as he and Leia become involved in the government of the New Republic. Anakain I would say is CG as a young Jedi, but his head really spins as he moves toward the diametric alignment, LE, as Darth Vader. Leia is interesting. Obviously she is a rebel, which is chaotic, but she really believes in the virtue of law and order. I guess you could say she is situationally CG during the Rebellion, but really LG. I would say Yoda is NG, perhaps close to N because he understands the yin and yang of the Force. Although he rarely channels the Dark Side, he understands that Dark and Light are merely different aspects of the Force.
Other prominent fictional characters which seem clear-cut, I would say Superman LG, Wolverine CG.
That was one reason why I didn't use many star wars characters; too many of them change too much in the series. (And then later in the books, which I haven't read). The same thing that makes them so compelling is the thing that makes them hard to nail down.
Yoda (my opinion, 'cause he's all into preserving the old republic and being nice to everyone) -- LG
Natty Bumppo (Leatherstocking Tales), Spenser (from Robert B. Parker) -- CG
Mr. Spock (Star Trek) -- LN
Egil Skalagrimsson (Egil's Saga) -- CN
Hitler, Stalin (real-world, but good examples nontheless) -- LE
The Kurgan (Highlander) -- CE
I always thought Tommy Lee Jones' character in "The Fugitive" was a good example of Lawful Neutral. Especially the part where he catches up to Harrison Ford and Ford says, "I didn't kill my wife," and Jones says, "I don't care." To me, that's the epitome of LN. He enforces the law, but he doesn't really care about the greater good.
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I always thought Tommy Lee Jones' character in "The Fugitive" was a good example of Lawful Neutral. Especially the part where he catches up to Harrison Ford and Ford says, "I didn't kill my wife," and Jones says, "I don't care." To me, that's the epitome of LN. He enforces the law, but he doesn't really care about the greater good.
what is this "lawful neutral" you speak of? ;)
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His overbearing narcissism utterly precludes him from the alignment pool.Denny Crane!
And... you're probably right.
I was reading an excerpt from his new book in People magazine the other day. He said that Nichele Nichols was talking to him for a book of some sort over lunch, and then at the end, says, "now Bill, let me tell you why I've always absolutely dispised you...."
So in the book, he says, "dispised me? Well. She. Was probably. Right."|
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I always thought Tommy Lee Jones' character in "The Fugitive" was a good example of Lawful Neutral. Especially the part where he catches up to Harrison Ford and Ford says, "I didn't kill my wife," and Jones says, "I don't care." To me, that's the epitome of LN. He enforces the law, but he doesn't really care about the greater good.
You're probably right, except for that last statement. I think as the whole film unfolds, you see that he really DOES care about the greater good. Remember, Richard Kimble is a convicted murderer, and as far as Sam Gerard knows, he's lying.
I always thought Tommy Lee Jones' character in "The Fugitive" was a good example of Lawful Neutral. Especially the part where he catches up to Harrison Ford and Ford says, "I didn't kill my wife," and Jones says, "I don't care." To me, that's the epitome of LN. He enforces the law, but he doesn't really care about the greater good.
I haven't seen that movie, but if you only judged it from that one scene, he'd be LE. LN would care about the law, and would not try to enforce it if he knew it was incorrect. CN could also work.
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Okay, I'm gonna try and go off the charts to get some other characters on board (forgive me if I duplicate one or two, and some are debatable):
Lawful Good
Neutral Good
Chaotic Good
Lawful Neutral
Neutral
Chaotic Neutral
Lawful Evil
Neutral Evil
Chaotic Evil
And for fun, the Bond villains in film order:
Dr. No - LE
Grant - CE
Goldfiner - NE
Largo - NE
Blofeld - LE
Kananga - LE
Scaramanga - NE
Stromberg - NE
Drax - LE
Kristatos - NE
Kamal Khan - LE
Zorin - CE
Koskov - NE
Sanchez - LE
Trevlyan - NE
Carver - LE
Rennard - CE
Graves - NE
Le Chiffre - LE
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I always thought Tommy Lee Jones' character in "The Fugitive" was a good example of Lawful Neutral. Especially the part where he catches up to Harrison Ford and Ford says, "I didn't kill my wife," and Jones says, "I don't care." To me, that's the epitome of LN. He enforces the law, but he doesn't really care about the greater good.I haven't seen that movie, but if you only judged it from that one scene, he'd be LE. LN would care about the law, and would not try to enforce it if he knew it was incorrect. CN could also work.
If you like crime/suspense films at all, it's worth seeing. It came out the same year as Schindler's list and it was the "other" must-see film that year. Tommy Lee Jones and Harrison Ford turn in some absolutely awe-inspiring performances in that one. One of my favorite movies ever. Also, you'll see in the film that Samuel Gerard (Tommy Lee Jones's character) is most definitely NOT LE. :) The only thing that makes him even a candidate for LN instead of LG is that he's utterly uncompromising and a little reckless, and those are shaky grounds at best. He's the hero in the second movie, and for good reason. My only complaint is that instead of another innocent guy, they should have had him and his team hunting down someone really evil and loathsome; a killer pedophile or something.
I'm going to have to go with Twain and say that Natty Bumppo was Chaotic Had No Idea What He Was Doing.
Huh? Why so?
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I'm going to have to go with Twain and say that Natty Bumppo was Chaotic Had No Idea What He Was Doing.Huh? Why so?
Read this essay.
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[prediction]This thread's gonna get ugly.[/prediction]
You couldn't be more wrong you FOOOOOL! What are you smoking anyway?!? You, ... You WotC lover!
;).
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Actually, I predict this will be a beautiful Thread.
Arguing these things is a great exercise; indeed, the best exercise in humanity -- greater even than chess or D&D. And that makes it beautiful.
If one could say everything there is to say about Hamlet . . . . there would be no point in ever talking about Hamlet.
-W. E. Ray
Read this essay.
Thanks; amusing read. I have to disagree that the story goes nowhere; The Deerslayer is a tale of moral coming-of-age for Natty, and probably the best of the series in that respect. I won't go back right now and double-check details like the width of the stream; the essay may be correct on those; but as far as the main points go, they're hardly self-evident, and are up for debate.
If he wanted to pick on idiocies in Cooper's work, Bumppo's successful bear disguise in Last of the Mohicans would be an easier and much more obvious target.
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Read this essay.Thanks; amusing read. I have to disagree that the story goes nowhere; The Deerslayer is a tale of moral coming-of-age for Natty, and probably the best of the series in that respect. I won't go back right now and double-check details like the width of the stream; the essay may be correct on those; but as far as the main points go, they're hardly self-evident, and are up for debate.
If he wanted to pick on idiocies in Cooper's work, Bumppo's successful bear disguise in Last of the Mohicans would be an easier and much more obvious target.
I always enjoy when the intelligencia suggest rules for art. At first I thought it was creative irony, but sadly it was not so creative.
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Read this essay.Thanks; amusing read. I have to disagree that the story goes nowhere; The Deerslayer is a tale of moral coming-of-age for Natty, and probably the best of the series in that respect. I won't go back right now and double-check details like the width of the stream; the essay may be correct on those; but as far as the main points go, they're hardly self-evident, and are up for debate.
If he wanted to pick on idiocies in Cooper's work, Bumppo's successful bear disguise in Last of the Mohicans would be an easier and much more obvious target.
you know, i was born in the village named after cooper's father (cooperstown, ny) and i STILL can't stand reading him, well, unless the ambien isn't working...
kinda liked the movie for "Mohicans", though...
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[prediction]This thread's gonna get ugly.[/prediction]
I love thinking about and reading these sorts of lists, though I have to say I don't think I've ever seen these discussed without someone getting mad. I've riled up a few fellow posters before myself. My opinion about what constitutes good and especially lawful good is pretty exclusive.
Anyway, I haven't seen one of these discussions here, so hopefully I'll be proven wrong.
You Could be right...
Delenn (Babylon 5) Lawful Good (With Fundamentalist Tendancies)
Kreegan Bailey (Cleopatra 2525) Chaotic Neutral (with Psychotic tendancies)
I declare this thread Chaotic Moot!
I declare this thread Chaotic Moot!I declare you Chaotic Poodle!
…with Good leanings. Although, I suppose that is moot too.
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I was born in the village named after Cooper's father ... and I STILL can't stand reading him.
I'm a professor of American Literature with a focus on American Romanticism (Cooper is an early Romantic writer) -- and I can't stand reading him either.
The Deerslayer is great for picking out little quotes and excerpts -- damn straight -- but for reading, ugh.
The Pilot may be the best if you're just looking to drive yourself insane.
Regarding Twain, however, he was attacking Romanticism itself. His criteria is, um, biased, to say the least -- the absolute least. Cooper was probably his biggest punching bag among the Romantics but the more you read Twain, fiction and non-fiction, the more this becomes obvious. Painfully obvious. No one takes Twain's criticism against the Romantics seriously. Even a little bit.
For the record, Cooper was a far more talented artist than Twain despite the fact that Twain is usually a (slightly) better read.
-W. E. Ray
The Deerslayer is great for picking out little quotes and excerpts -- damn straight -- but for reading, ugh.
I loved it (although I could never quite finish The Pathfinder--sorry, Paizo!). Then again, I've read Melville's Moby Dick... more than once. And laughed like a madman at the same parts each time.
Mostly I like to compare the settings; I grew up in upstate NY (among other places), and I've been to where most of the scenes take place. It's fun to imagine Lake George ("Glimmerglass") without the tourist junk shops.
Also, it doesn't hurt that Ommegang ale is brewed in Cooperstown. And the Baseball Hall of Fame is there.
You mean the section where the story stops and then there is a 70 page lecture on why a whale is absolutely and undoubtably a giant fish? Yeah, he makes a lot of good points...
You mean the section where the story stops and then there is a 70 page lecture on why a whale is absolutely and undoubtably a giant fish? Yeah, he makes a lot of good points...
Says a guy who probably thinks "Sailor Moon" is great literature?
I enjoyed the book. I never said it was a marine biology text.|
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You mean the section where the story stops and then there is a 70 page lecture on why a whale is absolutely and undoubtably a giant fish? Yeah, he makes a lot of good points...
This is truly sad.
You just don't get it. But don't feel too bad about it; most folks are just as sad -- equally unable to get literature.
-W. E. Ray
You know, you gotta update your facts, here. It's been "The Baseball Hall of Merely Average-to-Good" for quite a while now.
Last time I was there, it should have just been called the "Ken Griffey, Jr. Hall of Fame."
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Which Batman?
Michael Keaton's is LG.
Val Kilmer's . . . ? You know, the movie was so badly done that I've blocked it completely from my mind, you know, defense mechanisms against stupidity and all that.
Comic Book portrayals -- I have to admit ignorance though I suspect it changes from decade to decade and further, that the early stuff is far more sinister -- LNish, perhaps.
Adam West, LG
George Clooney, BA
And I haven't seen any others.