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Hi there,
I don't mean to be a smart ass, but just reading the blog entry of July 8 left a "bad aftertaste" for me: I know it's fiction and I know that folks on the other side of the pond make more carefree use of that part of history - but quoting from part of the anthem used by the nazis feels really odd to me...
Kr,
Günther
P.S.: Über Alles! = supreme over everything.
Don't have to mention which "faction" was inserted in real history, do I?
Hi there,
I don't mean to be a smart ass, but just reading the blog entry of July 8 left a "bad aftertaste" for me: I know it's fiction and I know that you folks on the other side of the pond make more carefree use of that part of history - but quoting from part of the anthem used by the nazis feels really odd to me...
Kr,
GüntherP.S.: Über Alles! = supreme over everything.
Don't have to mention which "faction" was inserted in real history, do I?
I am on the other side of the pond and agree.
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Hi there,
I don't mean to be a smart ass, but just reading the blog entry of July 8 left a "bad aftertaste" for me: I know it's fiction and I know that folks on the other side of the pond make more carefree use of that part of history - but quoting from part of the anthem used by the nazis feels really odd to me...
Kr,
GüntherP.S.: Über Alles! = supreme over everything.
Don't have to mention which "faction" was inserted in real history, do I?
"Deutschland Uber Alles" is in the German national anthem. I don't think it's inherently tied to Nazism.
"Deutschland Uber Alles" is in the German national anthem. I don't think it's inherently tied to Nazism.
Sorry, but "Deutschland über alles" stems from the first verse of the Deutschlandlied, which was text of the national anthem during the third reich. Today, only the third verse is the national anthem because of the connection of the first verse to the Nazi terror regime. Text and melody are older than that, of course, but the first verse is tainted by the Nazis in the minds of most germans.
So, referring to it is not ok for most germans.
Sorry if this sounds very preachy, but it is a touchy subject.
Stefan
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Uber Alles is in the German national anthem. I don't think it's inherently tied to Nazism.
It was national anthem until '45. The first and second stanza of the anthem were declared illegal after ww2. Today's anthem (third stanza) is "Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit" ("unity and law and liberty").
Stanza 1 is not inherently tied to Nazism, but implicitly to 3rd Reich and the prussian empire: Both used this stanza and both obviously took it too literal.
I don't intend to continue this discussion, these are not political boards. I just address my personal feelings about that title to the Paizo stuff. Everyone's free to agree or disagree.
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"Deutschland Uber Alles" is in the German national anthem. I don't think it's inherently tied to Nazism.Sorry, but "Deutschland über alles" stems from the first verse of the Deutschlandlied, which was text of the national anthem during the third reich. Today, only the third verse is the national anthem because of the connection of the first verse to the Nazi terror regime. Text and melody are older than that, of course, but the first verse is tainted by the Nazis in the minds of most germans.
So, referring to it is not ok for most germans.
Sorry if this sounds very preachy, but it is a touchy subject.Stefan
Hey, don't worry about the preachiness, I was completely wrong on this one guys! :)
I stand firmly corrected. I don't see it as that big a deal to use it in the blog (personal opinion only, clearly), but its ties to Nazism are apparent (now that you bring it up), and seeing as they announced that Pathfinder would be published in German today, I can see how this is important to bring up.
Again, thanks for correcting me. I am now slightly more informed.
It's funny, I would have never thought people would be so sensitive over it. I agree that it's not cool to bring up a phrase which many find offensive. Personally I think it's pretty cool that Pathfinder has such a strong German following.
Dennis: Well, the Nazi past is a very sensitive subject to most germans (apart from those too blind to see blatant evil in front of them). The horrible crimes committed by germans between 1933 and 1945 can not be taken lightly, and referring to it, even (or especially) unwittingly in a playful tone causes concern. Even less tolerable are the Nazi comparisons appearing from time to time in internet discussions.
I had a Neonazi demonstration passing right in front of my house just last year, so this is not just an intellectual hobby, but a very real concern.
Stefan
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I had a Neonazi demonstration passing right in front of my house just last year, so this is not just an intellectual hobby, but a very real concern.Stefan
We have neonazi demonstration in Italy too, so I think I can understand.
...Though I kinda think that Chelaxians WOULD say "Cheliax Über Alles". ;-)
Though I kinda think that Chelaxians WOULD say "Cheliax Über Alles". ;-)
I guess so.
The whole thing should not be overrated, but it is worth pointing out.
Stefan
I've removed the reference.
Thank you for being so responsive to this issue. And now I´m going to stop beating a dead horse.
Stefan
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We apologize for our lack of cultural awareness on this issue. I've removed the reference.
No reason for apologies, how were you to know about german sensitivities? .
I thank you, too, for taking our feelings in this matter serious.Don't try to understand it, germans just are peculiar about their history.
;-)
Kind regards,
Günther
A bit more background on this issue.
The Deutschlandlied was first adopted as the German national anthem in 1922 during the time of the so-called Weimar Republic. During the time of Third Reich it became tradtion to sing the first stanza - which is the one beginning with "Deutschland, Deutschland über alles" - followed by the Horst-Wessel-Lied (beginning "Die Fahne hoch, die Reihen fest geschlossen", players of Return to Castle Wolfenstein will probably be familiar with this). After the war, it was decided by the new Federal Republic of Germany to keep the anthem, but to sing only the third stanza (beginning "Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit") on official occasions. After the German Reunification it was decided in 1991 to change the German anthem to just the third stanza. The first and second stanzas are not, and never have been, "illegal".
The lyrics of the Deutschlandlied are originally a poem by Hoffmann von Fallersleben from the 1840s when uniting the small states which made up the Deutscher Bund became a political goal and signified that unification of Germany should be seen as paramount to all other political goals ("über alles") of the time. It was not meant to imply superiority of Germans or Germany over others.
CEO
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We apologize for our lack of cultural awareness on this issue. I've removed the reference.No reason for apologies, how were you to know about german sensitivities? .
I thank you, too, for taking our feelings in this matter serious.Don't try to understand it, germans just are peculiar about their history.
;-)
Actually, I should have known better. I spent three years of my life when I was young living in Germany and when I saw that blog my sensitivity radar went off. But I out thought myself, thinking that maybe things had changed and it wouldn't be as offensive to folks any more. So I wasn't surprised when this thread popped up and I spent 15 minutes trying to explain to Vic and Gary about why it is offensive to Germans. Sorry about that guys!
-Lisa
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This discussion has cropped up a bit before here in response to Erik's comments.
Admittedly, even I was a bit insensitive in saying "German" National Anthem in trying to point out Erik's use of the term. And I should no better, my father being German.
Kudos on the apology.