Just downloaded it. I'll read it over later tonight and give first thoughts on it. First I gotta see Hellboy II.
I sure hope its good. Looks like I'm going to be a player in it.
I just looked this over, and I wasn't satisfied with it-- it's lacking compared to the quality of the Paizo APs. But maybe there is going to be a lot more material coming in Dragon to flesh it out. But from what I could tell
It really looked like it was aimed at beginners. Honestly, shouldn't Wizards be catering more to the experienced players at this stage of the game?
Also, I was looking for crunch-- things that would give us extra insight into trap creation, or new varieties of monsters we could pinch for our own games.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong (I hope I am) but it looks like there's no "there there."
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"Rescue at Rivenroar" is a rough start for Wizards of the Coast's first foray into an adventure path with Dungeon. I think that we got spoiled by the AP professionals at Paizo.
"Rescue at Rivenroar" has an incomplete feeling to it. A sidebar is mentioned in the text, but it's not printed anywhere in the adventure.
My favorite "What...?" part of the adventure is the Brindol map. "Rescue at Rivenroar" has the exact same map of Brindol from Red Hand of Doom's page 83, but there is no map key for the town's locations. I guess WotC expected us to have RHoD handy as a reference. Or, we go from memory, or we make up our own locations.
It's gonna be a bumpy ride with this adventure path. Sadly, I bet they are planning and writing these things as they go with virtually no long term plan except to go "from 1st to 30th-level." The lack of a campaign overview document seems to say a lot about how Scales of War is a write and post as we go effort from WotC.
Wizards of the Coast has no idea what they've gotten themselves into.
Don (Greyson)
Director of Brand Strategy
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What a (suspected) letdown.
Second, it's ALL stats. There's no art at all, except maps...
Which make a huge 42 page dungeon crawl. Tons of fun, that. I can't wait for the next ... 17 parts.
Or I've just gotten confirmation of what I knew was going to happen all along.
Thanks WotC. If your fate with this lost customer weren't sealed before, it certainly is now.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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I yelled out "YOU MEET IN A BAR!" shortly after starting this mod. Very rough, and very poorly edited. The adventure itself has marginally more life than Keep on the Shadowfell, but it still comes off as an uninspired dungeon crawl. I was left wishing for a backplot that would make it come together. Too much focus on the combat and challenges, too little work on weaving a background for the story.
What makes Paizo shine is their settings, and this Dungeon offering is effectively settingless the way it is presented. You could use Red Hand of Doom to craft one, but you'd be left trying to patch in 10 years of changes on your own.
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Director of Brand Strategy
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What makes Paizo shine is their settings, and this Dungeon offering is effectively settingless the way it is presented. You could use Red Hand of Doom to craft one, but you'd be left trying to patch in 10 years of changes on your own.
But Russ, a point of light can be anywhere! You don't need a setting.
I just looked this over, and I wasn't satisfied with it-- it's lacking compared to the quality of the Paizo APs. But maybe there is going to be a lot more material coming in Dragon to flesh it out. But from what I could tell ** spoiler omitted **
Whah! Spolier tabs I'm not allowed to open 'cause I'm a player. Never before have I encountered this strange phenomena were there is stuff I'm not allowed to see.
Anyway thanks guys for using the spoiler tab. I want to be able to hang on the 4E board but I don't want that to mean that I must ruin my adventure.
Its to bad they don't seem to be meeting Paizos standards but I'm not that surprised. If they can manage 2/3rds as good they'll be doing pretty well. That said I'm a bit concerned for my game. 4E has gotten one of my players to become the DM, I'll need a break after I finish off my 3.5 campaign so that parts good. But the player has little experience DMing so I'm concerned.
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One of my players and I were talking about this:
You are right, it is. I guess that helps it a bit.
Just spent some time counting up all the pages taken up by their ‘Combat Spreads’, that 1-2 page layout that outlines the monster stats and a general idea of what they do, along with the map. While handy, they are taking up 26 pages of this 42 page adventure.
That leaves 16 pages for the actual adventure.
2 pages are taken up by Background.
4 pages expand on the Adventure Synopsis and the town.
2 pages go over the “Campaign Setup” which involves custom picking treasure for the PC’s ‘parcels’ (I really hate that term).
3 pages talk about some of the ‘in between’ stuff, which seems to involve a couple scenes and an overview on travel.
5 pages are dedicated to mapping the single dungeon and giving extremely brief descriptions of all the rooms and the pages where encounters are found.
That’s really it. Compared to the 52 pages dedicated to a Paizo AP (each combat of which rarely ever takes up an entire page, especially two), along with 22 more pages of extra fluff and monsters, this is extremely pitiful.
I had more time to look it over, and I’m incredibly unimpressed. I was interested to see if I’d even feel a small pull to run this at some point, but as it is, it’s almost all combat. Cool and interesting combats, but still.
The first part was him commenting about it being set in Greyhawk / after Red Hand of Doom when I was talking about my dislike of the "Points of Light" setting and its overall lack of flavor.
Otherwise, yeah. It's a big dungeon crawl. Woo.
What makes Paizo shine is their settings, and this Dungeon offering is effectively settingless the way it is presented. You could use Red Hand of Doom to craft one, but you'd be left trying to patch in 10 years of changes on your own.But Russ, a point of light can be anywhere! You don't need a setting.
Quite ... one of the main philosophies I hate about 4e.
I really don't know where the guys from wotc have been for the last ten years, don't they realise the growth of interesting, to some degree unique, and detailed settings has changed D&D's campaign backdrops from it's bland, cookie cutter, setting origins?
With 4e it's like Eberron, Midnight, Kalamar, Ghelspad, Iron Kingdoms, etc etc have never happened ... we're suddenly tossed back into the bad old days of poorly thought out 'dungeons in wilderness, with a few generic towns'.
One of my players and I were talking about this:
You are right, it is. I guess that helps it a bit.
Just spent some time counting up all the pages taken up by their ‘Combat Spreads’, that 1-2 page layout that outlines the monster stats and a general idea of what they do, along with the map. While handy, they are taking up 26 pages of this 42 page adventure.
That leaves 16 pages for the actual adventure.
2 pages are taken up by Background.
4 pages expand on the Adventure Synopsis and the town.
2 pages go over the “Campaign Setup” which involves custom picking treasure for the PC’s ‘parcels’ (I really hate that term).
3 pages talk about some of the ‘in between’ stuff, which seems to involve a couple scenes and an overview on travel.
5 pages are dedicated to mapping the single dungeon and giving extremely brief descriptions of all the rooms and the pages where encounters are found.That’s really it. Compared to the 52 pages dedicated to a Paizo AP (each combat of which rarely ever takes up an entire page, especially two), along with 22 more pages of extra fluff and monsters, this is extremely pitiful.
I had more time to look it over, and I’m incredibly unimpressed. I was interested to see if I’d even feel a small pull to run this at some point, but as it is, it’s almost all combat. Cool and interesting combats, but still.
The first part was him commenting about it being set in Greyhawk / after Red Hand of Doom when I was talking about my dislike of the "Points of Light" setting and its overall lack of flavor.
Otherwise, yeah. It's a big dungeon crawl. Woo.
Ditto on hating the term 'parcel' in relation to set treasure allocation - that whole concept has drained the excitement, randomness, and wonder from treasure tables.
Though I do love them, I find even the Paizo APs a bit combat heavy, so judging by your helpful summation, I think it's fair to say the wotc wargame style APs are not going to be for me (even were they in any sense backcompatable.
I've read it twice already and I liked it.
Nevertheless, Paizo still writes better adventures. It seems experience helps , although I like David Noonam a lot (from SCAP).
My biggest problem was the fact that the map doesn't point the location of the dungeon.
About the locations in Brindol's map, I suppose that they will show them in another article of Dungeon or perhaps Dragon this month.
And it is not entirely only combat.
Quite ... one of the main philosophies I hate about 4e.I really don't know where the guys from wotc have been for the last ten years, don't they realise the growth of interesting, to some degree unique, and detailed settings has changed D&D's campaign backdrops from it's bland, cookie cutter, setting origins?
With 4e it's like Eberron, Midnight, Kalamar, Ghelspad, Iron Kingdoms, etc etc have never happened ... we're suddenly tossed back into the bad old days of poorly thought out 'dungeons in wilderness, with a few generic towns'.
Well if WotC screws the pooch on this I suppose I'd not be shocked. That said there is no requirement that says that an adventure in some implied setting must be lousy. Dungeon, even during the Paizo era, was full of fantastic adventures many, probably most, of which did not really exist in a specific setting.
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I give up. I'm apparently, I'm one of many who are experiencing problems with article downloads from WotC (a few have posted similar experiences there).
Use internet explorer. Apparently the latest adobe update and Mozilla Firefox don't like WoTC. I used Internet Explorer to successfully download both files sfter fsiling with firefox.
Ditto on hating the term 'parcel' in relation to set treasure allocation - that whole concept has drained the excitement, randomness, and wonder from treasure tables.
Though I do love them, I find even the Paizo APs a bit combat heavy, so judging by your helpful summation, I think it's fair to say the wotc wargame style APs are not going to be for me (even were they in any sense backcompatable.
Maybe they'll do an Eberron AP directed by Kieth Baker. That'd I'd actually really like to see. Well unless they stuck it in (hack heavy) Xen'rick, that'd kind of defeat the purpose.
I give up. I'm apparently, I'm one of many who are experiencing problems with article downloads from WotC (a few have posted similar experiences there).Use internet explorer. Apparently the latest adobe update and Mozilla Firefox don't like WoTC. I used Internet Explorer to successfully download both files sfter fsiling with firefox.
Not true. I just went and tested and I use firefox. This came out as a normal PDF. I'm not allowed to read this but jumping back and fourth between the first two pages makes it clear to me that I could read this PDF if I wanted to.
I've read it twice already and I liked it.
Nevertheless, Paizo still writes better adventures. It seems experience helps , although I like David Noonam a lot (from SCAP).
My biggest problem was the fact that the map doesn't point the location of the dungeon.
About the locations in Brindol's map, I suppose that they will show them in another article of Dungeon or perhaps Dragon this month.
And it is not entirely only combat.
Well I'm glad some one liked it. Maybe we'll have some good adventuring after all.
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My favorite "What...?" part of the adventure is the Brindol map. "Rescue at Rivenroar" has the exact same map of Brindol from Red Hand of Doom's page 83, but there is no map key for the town's locations. I guess WotC expected us to have RHoD handy as a reference. Or, we go from memory, or we make up our own locations.
That has lame written all over it. I mean, technically Brindol got trashed during RHoD
I am downloading it now to give it a look though.
EDIT: Okay, downloaded. I did like some of the ideas, like having each prisoner do/know something useful, like the dwarf or the kid-acrobat. But the history is not there - none of the noble houses are the same, none of the taverns or magic shops either: did everything change in 10 years? I shed a small tear to think if Paizo had been allowed to publish an AP based on Red Hand for 3.5.
... we're suddenly tossed back into the bad old days of poorly thought out 'dungeons in wilderness, with a few generic towns'.
Well, I've been very enthused about 4e for the last couple of days -- but again I waver. WotC is starting to develop a pattern of doing what many have feared.
Their products continue to show little or no interest in development of plot or background story. IMO this parallels a similar lack of interest in the core rules for material that promotes character development -- if it doesn't contribute directly to encounter resolution, they've probably axed it.
"Poorly thought out?" -- No. I think they wrote nothing more or less than they intended -- a vehicle to allow combat encounters. Kudos to them for that, I suppose.
So I fear Rescue at Rivenroar is the best we can hope for from them :/
I'm compelled to compare this to Paizo's APs. In every case, Paizo started with a rich, complex, well-developed setting. These gave us enough material to branch out easily away from the primary plot of the campaign, and enriched the campaign. WotC will have none of that, it seems.
And since I'm in a complainy mood today, guess what every single room in Rivenroar Dungeon has? Yep, you guessed it -- a tactical encounter.
And are players' attention spans really so short that they can't handle an empty room or two? And it's a realism issue -- aren't rooms ever left empty in real life? OK, you know what I mean.
This is starting to piss me off. True, we can't have a campaign without combat -- but IMC we've had great gaming nights without a single combat. It's the story and character develpment that makes it fun -- otherwise I'll just play Neverwinter Nights. I want more than a series of combat encounters!
Paizo gave me three great campaigns, and countless great adventures. WotC promises nothing more than a bunch of dungeon crawls.
PS I'm actually sorry: I don't mean to start another 4e-bashfest. But I think this new AP is highlighting WotC's shortcomings.
I think it's rather ironic. WotC probably feels (rightly) that they are showcasing their strength -- a great set of rules.
At the same time, they are unwittingly showcasing their (very serious) weaknesses. For those who know Paizo's adventure paths: which setting would you rather play and DM in? WotC's Brindol setting? Or any of Cauldron, Diamond Lake, or Sasserine?
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And since I'm in a complainy mood today, guess what every single room in Rivenroar Dungeon has? Yep, you guessed it -- a tactical encounter.
And those encounters will stand there with a blank look on their faces until you step through the door and cut them down! Putting the c...r...a...w...l back in dungeon-crawl.
Yeah, even Neverwinter Nights didn't have that problem (at least, the first one didn't too much...NWN2 was horrendous for it).
I'm compelled to compare this to Paizo's APs. In every case, Paizo started with a rich, complex, well-developed setting. These gave us enough material to branch out easily away from the primary plot of the campaign, and enriched the campaign. WotC will have none of that, it seems.
And since I'm in a complainy mood today, guess what every single room in Rivenroar Dungeon has? Yep, you guessed it -- a tactical encounter.
And are players' attention spans really so short that they can't handle an empty room or two? And it's a realism issue -- aren't rooms ever left empty in real life? OK, you know what I mean.
Actually that's a really good and often overlooked point - good, real(er) feeling, dungeons I've found are usually quite empty on a room to room basis.
I prefer to have plenty of 'empty' though detailed chambers, perhaps with flavoursome dressing, or hidden clues, (or maybe traps), with a few lairs or bases dotted about, and basically have the various monsters and factions pretty much moving about a 'range'.
This works better than the 'this room is occupied by 2 kobolds' technique on several levels - firstly it reduces the old-style cornyness, secondly the party are helped to feel like they're moving cautiously through a mysterious and eerie ruin, and thirdly it means things can change behind them, so the journey out can be a different story to the journey in.
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This works better than the 'this room is occupied by 2 kobolds' technique on several levels - firstly it reduces the old-style cornyness, secondly the party are helped to feel like they're moving cautiously through a mysterious and eerie ruin, and thirdly it means things can change behind them, so the journey out can be a different story to the journey in.
Plus, it means the PCs have to earn everything they do. None of this "I killed the monster, where is its stuff" of some adventures. Sometimes stuff is in the storage room, other times nothing but meat and potatoes is in the storage room. Plus, details of the rooms can give the PCs clues about their adversaries.
Recently, a fellow DM described us finding long strands of brittle hair on a bed smelling of earth and decay, because we searched the bed. We instantly began devising tactics for fighting an undead necromancer, instead of a living one.
Heh, just thinking about this 'empty dungeon' theme, and remembering a conversation with one of my players who was basically advocating that we push it further and make dungeons 'archeological explorations' rather than adventurous crawls.
He loved the peeling away of the onion skins of the culture that built the place that searching the dungeon chambers often reveal (well they do in my campaigns anyway ;-) ), more than the dangerous business of fighting monsters. Damn coward!
If he had his way, he said, there'd be no monsters down there and he could load up on treasure, while studying Charannian carvings, Drow grave goods, or Nethian sculpture!
Fat chance, I like colourful dungeon dressing ... but I also like hitting those dumb shlobs with a carrion crawler, or a green slime, or whatever too. :-)
I'm due to play an adventure this weekend set in a ruined Temple-Monastery and the catacombs beneath it - inhabited by 6 Heucuvas (and a couple of foraging rust monsters). There are plenty of 'empty' rooms, and the heucuvas may be met all over, but most of the adventure revolves around piecing together the clues as to what happened to the monks who once lived there and vanished. That's a big different between what I see as a good d&d adventure and what wotc see as a good d&d adventure - they'd turn the ruins into various battle encounters, and the heucuvas into 'artillery' and 'brutes' ... whereas I'm going balls out for atmosphere, mysery, and horror. I plan to 'haunt' my players movements thru the ruins, before any combat for example.
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Stuff about dungeons.
I and my players would love your dungeons, so you are not alone. Heck, my brother once designed a bard/rogue based on Indiana Jones, complete with whip, hand-crossbow, hat, and a bunch of knowledge/exploration skills. Another player criticized his "build" as being weak, and he said "Shut up, it's my character, tell me if he sucks when you get shot in the face by poisoned arrow traps." I have never been prouder of him.
I really have to get back to that campaign.
...my brother once designed a bard/rogue based on Indiana Jones, complete with whip, hand-crossbow, hat, and a bunch of knowledge/exploration skills...
This is what great games are made of! :)
Another player criticized his "build" as being weak...
This is not. WotC probably has an opening for this guy.
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Is this all WoC can can up with as the start of their AP?
I mean, the first advnture should be the one that a) gets the group together and b) gives the players some incentive to play through the adventure path.
IMO this adventure is a severe setback to the Keep on the Borderlands time but without the cool aspects.
Don't get me wrong, Keep on the Borderlands was my first D&D game ever. But that was 27 years ago!
This is not an adventure for a new DM. If it was it should provide plot hooks and ideas why the PCs are in the town.
It should elaborate on the "rivals" theme under Starting the Adventure.
And it is certainly not an adventure for an experienced group that wants to start a campaign.
BAR FIGHT? Should this be old school?
I all honesty, IMO this adventure is crap!
It has absolutely nothing that makes it more than halfway mediocre.
Everything is "been there, done that".
And you can use a theme like an abduction and create a savage Adventure with it, even if you use Kobolds!
This rant has NOTHING to do with the edition of the game. This adventure is crap in every edition.
My stomach keeps turning at this "AP" -- and I am reluctant to use the same term we use for Shackled City, Age of Worms, and Savage Tide.
The launching point (the town of Brindol) appears to have no description beyond a sidebar of less than 300 words.
For a standalone adventure? It's probably a passable product. For the launch of an 18-adventure campaign? "Pathetic" is being a bit generous.
OK, if most people (certainly not all) agree that this adventure is not the direction we would like to see Wizards headed, I think the next question to ask is: what are they thinking?
One thing I'd like to point out is that I found most of the material in the last issues of Dragon and Dungeon to be very well done. Creature Incarnations in Dragon, for example, detailed many knew kobold roles, well thought out, and included humor and whimsy. So it isn't like WotC can't put out a quality product.
We might be looking at a sophomore slump. Maybe they've been working at the content of the first issues of Dungeon and Dragon for a while, and now they're having trouble because they're suddenly crunched for time. And certainly, they may have bitten off more than they can chew with all of their ambitious digital products.
But they could have put off the launch of the AP until later in the month. I'm not really sure why that decision couldn't have been made. I'm sure Dave Noonan is a perfectly good writer, so there are three possibilities: He ran out of time, he didn't get editorial feedback, and/or he produced just what was asked for.
So can anybody tell us exactly what happened? Do the people at WotC just not read the stuff Paizo produces? Are they tilting the website to a younger audience that probably doesn't exist yet?
I'm not trying to bash Wizards or 4e-- I like 4e! But what is up at WotC?
lots of good points and opinions...
I agree -- 4e material in the magazines has been, until now, excellent.
But I fear it's not a slump. They dropped the ball on Keep on the Shadowfell pretty badly. Nearly-universal opinion is that it is a lackluster adventure with a poor plot and poor background. The new adventure simply continues that trend.
I think (as I've already said) that WotC has neither the skill nor the interest necessary to create a compelling campaign. They are good game designers, but poor authors. And I think they neither see this, nor do they care. Nothing seems important to them beyond a series of well-designed tactical encounters.
And I'm not trying to bash 4e either, which I really want to enjoy. But WotC continues to consistently disappoint on specific items.
My two cents. Again :)
lots of good points and opinions...
Just remember what ol' Jack Burton does when the earth quakes, and the poison arrows fall from the sky, and the pillars of Heaven shake. Yeah, Jack Burton just looks that big ol' storm right square in the eye and he says, "Give me 3.5, pal..."
I have yet to read through the whole adventure yet, so I cannot comment on how it all 'works' as the start of an AP.
I was going to chime in about giving WoTC a chance to improve on their first foray into the grand, and apparently difficult, world of Adventure Path creation. But then I noticed something that makes this harder to do.
One of the major complaints seems to be around a lack of background/history. I was going to mention that they would hopefully give us this in some of the articles in Dragon. Then I noticed that the Dragon article that is supposed to give us some ideas on backgrounds for the PCs is not coming out until August. Kind a little too late there, guys!
If I decide to run this AP, luckily it won't be for a while, so I will have time to build a collection of modules/articles. Hopefully things might have gotten better by then.
On a side note, how is this 'Adventure Path', which WoTC is touting as their first, really going to be different then the published modules that are coming out? It was my belief that all 9 modules were designed to get you from level 1-30.
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Bah. Color me unimpressed. As others have said before me, as written, the adventure is just a long string of encounters. There's nothing really tying the whole thing together, nothing to get me excited about running this AP.
I'll do it. Maybe. I'll see how the thing goes as long as it's free, but I was looking at the continued running of the adventure as the only incentive to get a DDI sub. Now I'm not so sure it'll be worth it.
I let Keep of the Shadowfell slide on it's lack of of a real plot. I looked at it as an introductory adventure and as such I and my group have had a lot of fun with it.
But if you're going to put out a full fledged AP there better be substance to it and it just seems to me that Wizards isn't interested in substance.
This really makes my arguments that you can have just as much or more Role Play in 4th edition as you did in 3.5 all the more harder to justify. I finally understand other's fears and reservations that 4th edition would be nothing but a glorified hack-and-slash minis game, with character interaction all but discouraged.
My first ever attempted AP was Age of Worms. It too started as a long dungeon crawl. But there was substance. I knew that Diamond Lake as a seedy crap hole to live in that was full of corruption. The encounters outside of the dungeon were just as compelling as within. After reading that adventure I knew that I had to run this and that it would be epic.
Rescue at Rivenroar has none of that. Brindol is a collection of numbers on a map with no key. There's no NPC listing. There's no history other than name connecting it to Red Hand of Doom. There's nothing there that breaths life into the adventure. And worst of all, to me, is the lack of a summary that I can use to fill in the gaps.
And they plan on having Dragon articles that tie into the AP "roughly every other month, starting in the August issue". As stated above, a little late to the party there guys.
I don't think I would so worried if there was just a summary for the whole shebang. Rodney got one together for the Star Wars Saga AP and I think that's helped people deal with the delays between adventures. They can come up with filler because they know the direction the AP will take. I hope Wizards follows suit soon with this. That way I can start filling in the huge gaps of stuff that's not there. New NPCs, reasons for my players to be there (other than "hey you meet in a bar". There's just more I could add to it if I had more to go on with the Path the Adventure will take. (see what I did there? Path. Adventure. Adventure Path. See...oh go on. You saw.)
By the way, I'm thinking of setting my adventure 50 to 100 years after RHoD instead of just 10. Anyone else have similar thoughts?
On a side note, how is this 'Adventure Path', which WoTC is touting as their first, really going to be different then the published modules that are coming out? It was my belief that all 9 modules were designed to get you from level 1-30.
The main difference is that the Dungeon AP are...well SHOULD be...closely tied together. One adventure leads to another. The published modules are very, very loosely tied together to where, unless the DM beats their players over the head with the connection, players are likely to miss it.
For instance, in Keep of the Shadowfell:
Here's hoping it gets better.
Maybe it loses its luster when they get to the dungeon part?
No, I think there's no luster from the beginning.
There's nothing wrong mechanically with the encounters. What's missing is the background material that helps the world (and the roleplaying) come alive, so to speak. Less than 300 words (lower corner of page 9) are all we get about the locale -- unless it is something that directly impacts a 'tactical encounter.'
I must admit to a little dissapointment, at least at first glance.
I do truly like the mechanical system of 4e - it is just what my group and I were looking for (not saying it is perfect, just that so far it plays to our D&D style).
However, WoTC does seem to lack the adventure creativity that Paizo and other 3rd parties bring to the table. I am not sure why that is.
However, WoTC does seem to lack the adventure creativity that Paizo and other 3rd parties bring to the table. I am not sure why that is.
I've been thinking about that, too. When was the last time WotC wrote an adventure (in-house, without outside talent) that people raved about? I can't recall any.
Sigh. I would not buy this adventure.
Saying over what others have said, I am disappointed. I compare this adventure to Burnt Offerings, similar in many ways, and Rescue at Rivenroar is quite far behind as far as creativity and flavor is concerned. Burnt Offerings had a richness of setting, a complex plot, great description - it sparked my imagination and made me care about where the AP was going. Its NPCs were fascinating and its final goblin hideout more than another stronghold - it was politically intriguing as well. I don't get any of that with Rescue of the Rivenroar. I don't even know what Castle Rivenroar looks like. What a great opportunity - to describe a historic castle, decrepit over the years and full of mystery, a place where the PCs will eventually return. But even the catacombs don't feel they have a general ambiance and feel.
Not to mention the missing sidebar and at least one sidebar in the wrong tactical encounter.
Good points: The tactical encounters seem interesting enough in themselves, and the Skill Challenges have more clarity and organization compared to past explanations. After reading the adventure, I'm starting to "get" Skill Challenges better and getting further ideas on how to enrichen a tactical encounter.
Ironically, I'm running a David Noonan adventure right now from the SCAP - "Test of the Smoking Eye". It introduces a setting rich in flavor, with an interesting NPC in Kaurophon and some complexity - other individuals are attempting to pass the tests. The challenges are more than combat and test the characters' (and players') intelligence, morality, trust, and so on.
I'm wondering if the tactical encounter format and skill challenges are taking up so much room little is left for flavor and details. Or are they expecting us to fill that in? If that's the case, I mine as well buy Paizo adventures and convert - which is looking more and more like the direction I'll go. I don't need a full page describing the skill rolls for interrogating a hobgoblin. I'd rather read about a hobgoblin's unique personality.
My hope is that they are still in the "testing" mode when it comes to 4e adventures and seeing what basic elements are most needed and desired. If adventures stay like this, I doubt the future "Dungeon" will hold much interest for me.
What's interesting is that I happen to like a lot of the Dragon articles, which seem very rich in flavor and fascination. I've already used a new monster from one article and plan on using more. I'm finding it a valuable resource for pulling ideas.
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However, WoTC does seem to lack the adventure creativity that Paizo and other 3rd parties bring to the table. I am not sure why that is.I've been thinking about that, too. When was the last time WotC wrote an adventure (in-house, without outside talent) that people raved about? I can't recall any.
Monte Cook's Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil? 2001.
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However, WoTC does seem to lack the adventure creativity that Paizo and other 3rd parties bring to the table. I am not sure why that is.
They probably didn't read Wolfgang Baur's book?
I'm of the same mind..I really liked the Yeengonhu article and the ruined city article in the last Dragon. Even the warforged fluff, while not to my liking, was...fluff.
Test of the Smoking Eye was pretty amazing stuff. I'm very surprised at the lack of detailed, evocative background. I'm going to assume that the one sentence descriptions of the rooms weren't intended by the author or did not just get absorbed into the tactical encounter page.
OK, if most people (certainly not all) agree that this adventure is not the direction we would like to see Wizards headed, I think the next question to ask is: what are they thinking?
One thing I'd like to point out is that I found most of the material in the last issues of Dragon and Dungeon to be very well done. Creature Incarnations in Dragon, for example, detailed many knew kobold roles, well thought out, and included humor and whimsy. So it isn't like WotC can't put out a quality product.
That a company can make excellent product of one type does not mean they can make excellent product of another type. Adventures are not Splat Books, their not mechanics, in many ways they are the antithesis of mechanics. Their based on imagination, pacing, good prose. Mechanics and the rules are a whole different kettle of fish. Its difficult to remember the last time I was impressed by one of their adventure modules that was not produced by a free lancer. I mean they have only rarely succeeded in the last 10 years - and this may well be, in fact probably is, just a continuation.
We might be looking at a sophomore slump. Maybe they've been working at the content of the first issues of Dungeon and Dragon for a while, and now they're having trouble because they're suddenly crunched for time. And certainly, they may have bitten off more than they can chew with all of their ambitious digital products.
Even if it is a sophomore slump the reality is it should not really matter, especially for Dungeon. They did not need to write these themselves - Dungeon is supposed to be about submissions from the general public and from excellent free lancers. They should have brought talent on board for this project.
But they could have put off the launch of the AP until later in the month. I'm not really sure why that decision couldn't have been made. I'm sure Dave Noonan is a perfectly good writer, so there are three possibilities: He ran out of time, he didn't get editorial feedback, and/or he produced just what was asked for.
Heaven forfend that its 'he produced just what was asked for'. If thats the case...well thats just awful news. I mean you can force a truly talented freelancer to make crap if you work hard enough at it. I mean if they edit out anything thats the least bit thought provoking then even the best submissions will be completely flat.
So can anybody tell us exactly what happened? Do the people at WotC just not read the stuff Paizo produces? Are they tilting the website to a younger audience that probably doesn't exist yet?I'm not trying to bash Wizards or 4e-- I like 4e! But what is up at WotC?
Rumour has it that a lot of the people at WotC really like what Paizo makes so I'm just not sure.
Just downloaded it. I'll read it over later tonight and give first thoughts on it. First I gotta see Hellboy II.Saw Hellboy II. IMO, a ton more entertaining than the dungeon crawl that is Rescue at Rivenroar.
I didn't even like Hellboy II and I agree. :)
My take is that the 4e designers have concluded that setting and story aren't necessary for adventures. In fact, setting and story increase prep time and, thus, are an obstacle to the DM's "fun."
After reading Keep on the Shadowfell, Rescue at Rivenroar, and Treasure of Talon Pass, it feels as if D&D Miniatures "campaigns" are the design goal: a series of encounters with merely a few sentences to tie them together--hence James Wyatt proclaiming proudly that his own campaign consists of nothing more than random dungeons.
I'm wondering if the tactical encounter format and skill challenges are taking up so much room little is left for flavor and details.
I'd say no. The online magazines don't suffer from the space restrictions inherent in a print magazine. FLavor and detail are missing because they didn't want to put them in.
When was the last time WotC wrote an adventure (in-house, without outside talent) that people raved about? I can't recall any.
Monte Cook's Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil? 2001.
I didn't like it, though I know many did. I think opinions were sufficiently spotty that I wouldn't describe them as "raving." That may just be my bias against it, though.
I don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet, but has it been considered that one of their goals might be to make sure that each adventure could easily be run using their online dungeon creator. If that is the case then you can "look forward" to a long series of bland dungeon rooms filled with various critters.
I hope this is not the case because it will really kill a lot of the creative potential for the AP.
However, it could be great for a dm who wants to run an online campaign with friends that are now scattered to the four winds.
I too was really disappointed that their was no synopsis for the campaign, and compared to the other dungeon and pathfinder AP's I didn't feel any inspiration to run it.
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It really looked like it was aimed at beginners. Honestly, shouldn't Wizards be catering more to the experienced players at this stage of the game?
4e seems, in my opinion, aimed completely at the next generation of players......which doesnt really include the experienced ones. Look at the DMG for example.
"Rescue at Rivenroar" is a rough start for Wizards of the Coast's first foray into an adventure path with Dungeon. I think that we got spoiled by the AP professionals at Paizo
Paizo set that bar real high. I honestly didnt expect WOTC to even come close to it, so its no suprise their AP doesnt meet that standard. Especially with Keep of teh Shadowfell as their first adventure.
Adventures, overall, are NOT Wotc's forte. There are exceptions, like Red hand of Doom, but thats exceptions-not the rule.
Paizo set that bar real high. I honestly didnt expect WOTC to even come close to it, so its no suprise their AP doesnt meet that standard. Especially with Keep of teh Shadowfell as their first adventure.
Adventures, overall, are NOT Wotc's forte. There are exceptions, like Red hand of Doom, but thats exceptions-not the rule.
That sums up my feelings pretty nicely. Of course, as they say, practice makes perfect, so hopefully overtime they'll improve as they learn what makes a good adventure and what doesn't.
Still, as I think I'll end up running this AP, it isn't really terrible. Just not up to the quality of Paizo, but again, considering Paizo's quality, that isn't a surprise right?
Cheers! :)
The previous adventures in Dungeon since the transition have been decent. Rescue at Rivenroar falls far short of what I'd call a decent adventure. Actually, to be fair, I'd say the portion prior to the dungeon is good. The skill challenges, the urban encounters, all read as fun, exciting encounters.
Then comes the dungeon. The map looks like it was generated from a random dungeon generator, or for ease of use with dungeon tiles. Bleh. Just plain dull.
The encounters within the dungeon look just as random, despite a bit of text to try and tie random monsters into the adventure. It doesn't work.
This one should have been sent back with a rejection notice, or at least a "needs major revision."
Oh, and not a single picture of Merisiel in the whole thing. Never a good sign! ;)