This is something that applies to all Gamemastery AP's in general, but I've only followed CotCT so I'm posting it here. I was wondering how useful people found the Pathfinder's Journal section in each issue?
I personally find it a waste of 6 pages that could be used on other things.
1) I hate game fiction. I know not everyone does, but I think it is a very poor way to communicate information to players. I don't mind a few paragraphs to provide appropriate flavor text about Topic X, but even one whole page is too much, much less 6. The only time I have found it bearable was in the old Van Richten guides for TSR's Ravenloft, and with that the game fiction was actually used to provide real information to the DM and was focused. This "journal" style is just a big waste.
2) I find the information the Journal provides to have little relevance to the issue at hand. Given the large price each issue ($20), I think these 6 pages would be better spent on something more relevant.
3) After reading many of the threads in the CotCT AP, it seems that there are many instances when people are looking for a bit more detail on Encounter X. Maybe it's stats on an NPC they meet. Maybe it's options for the Cinematic Encounter. Or ideas of what would happen if the PC's think out of the box in this encounter (and generally said encounter often appears to many people as one that can lead to many different approaches). Or a bit more explanation on Group/Location/Event Z which got short shrift in the module, but which could easily be expanded by a DM and Players. I think the 6 pages of the Journal could be used to give us some of these details.
I understand Paizo is using this to provide details about Golarion in lieu of a published overview of the setting, but I think the other 2 sections between the module itself and the PJ (which usually are relevant to the module as well) can serve that purpose. The Journal is just fluff. As examples, here is what I would have preferred to been in its place for each of the 3 issues I own in this AP:
Edge: Some background on Queen Ileosa and her plans for the next few weeks or months. This would be behind the scenes stuff that set up the next parts of the adventures. This would assist DMs and PCs in becoming more involved with the intrigue and plots. Some things might not be preventable, but the section could easily tell a DM what those things are so he knows what needs to happen so the next part of the adventure can happen. A well designed background takes that into account.
Seven: Details on the Gray Maidens who all of a sudden spring up from nowhere. I can accept them as a new faction, but as is there is not enough to make them seem real. Instead, they just appear. Organization, recruitment, where they're stationed, and NPCs that exist between Sabina Merrin and the nameless goons is what I would want to see.
Escape: 6 pages that describe Old Korvosa in much more detail. General locations, groups, and NPC's that may not directly affect the main adventure, but which makes this part of town come more alive.
I've been happy with every other section in the issues, but the Journal is one area I have consistently been disappointed in. I think this section could be revamped to provide us with a much bigger bang for our buck. I am hoping there are enough people who agree so we encourage Paizo to replace it with something more useful. If I am in the minority, well, so be it.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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I feel exactly the opposite.
I love the journals, I hope Paizo continues to include them.
Paizo *is* tweaking their AP design though - the adventures will soon be about 10 pages shorter (IIRC) and will include "Set Pieces" - basically mini-adventures that will describe specific locales in greater detail. Maybe that will answer some of your concerns regarding "more detail."
As for the journals, I think they're well written and really fun to read - it's also a more engaging way of getting world information than just reading gazeteer entries.
This is something that applies to all Gamemastery AP's in general, but I've only followed CotCT so I'm posting it here. I was wondering how useful people found the Pathfinder's Journal section in each issue?
I personally find it a waste of 6 pages that could be used on other things.
...
I've been happy with every other section in the issues, but the Journal is one area I have consistently been disappointed in. I think this section could be revamped to provide us with a much bigger bang for our buck. I am hoping there are enough people who agree so we encourage Paizo to replace it with something more useful. If I am in the minority, well, so be it.
How funny you should be posting this the same day I start a thread saying how much I love these. So I couldn't disagree more. I find they flesh out the world in a way that even other fluff doesn't, so I would be disappointed if they ended.
But I have no idea what the "majority" thinks on this. I suppose a poll would tell us. If I end up in the minority view, and Paizo takes them away, well, that's democracy for you...
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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I didn't care for the journals at first, but these days it's the first section I read. The series has really found its voice, and I find it is giving me a feel for Golarion as well. I'm hoping it continues for many years. I like to see the world from the perspective of those living it.
Also, the episodes seem to foreshadow events in the module series - or at least locales :)
I think they are the strongest part of the line so far, as they evoke the spirit of Pathfinder. It is important to not get too dry and technical. Most of the books are crammed full of very dense stuff. The fiction acts to deepen and heighten the rest of the setting. It is more evocative, easier to digest, and just more damn fun, to get a view into the world from one of its inhabitants.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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I like the journals. For one thing, they give a very different, in-world view on things that all too easily is missed on the other sections. They might tell you what the world is, but the journal gives some insight as to what the world looks like to one single (albeit exceptional) inhabitant.
So i'd say the pages spend are spend well. Any more than what it is, and i think it overstays its welcome, but the size they have is just right IMHO.
By in large, the purpose of the Pathfinder's Journal is to explore Golarion. Especially in the early days of Pathfinder we knew the Adventure Paths would not give us the freedom to detail and define the world as we wanted. While game text and adventures certainly describe places, the Pathfinder's Journal gives us a way to actually relate experiences in Golarion and give folks a real feel for the world—something that even the best written boxed text can't do. It also helps us give the feel for the setting and its titular society of explorers.
All that being said, part of the Pathfinder's Journal was always meant to be rules digressions and out of character sidebars to make them useful as more than just fiction. Admittedly, they have been inconsistent in that regard. But as to the criticism that the journal is just fluff, I'd have to ask, what's wrong with just fluff? Of course, I'm the guy who usually skips reading a monster's stats to get to its ecology and society sections and would rather have a gazetteer of a region than 100 new feats. I always tend to see the “fluff” parts of the game as food for GMs, sparks for adventures, and mining grounds for personal creativity. Even then, though, the Pathfinder's Journal can prove quite useful to a game. If you wanted to run adventures in Urglin, Urgir, Belkzen, or a half dozen other locations, those journals are the go-to source. Take away any of this potential, though, and there’s still the fact that, to a degree, in addition to offering adventures and rules, part of Pathfinder's goal is to simply be a good read.
Despite all that, there are changes in the wind. We don't plan to stick with Eando Kline forever and his trek will be wrapping up with Second Darkness. Wrangling a different freelancer every month to convey the same voice has also been both a miracle and a trail, so we're moving away from that as well. The Pathfinder's Journal is meant to be excerpted from actual volumes of the in-game Pathfinder Chronicles, and we'd like to be able to present more stories and detail more untouched parts of our world through them. So, starting with Pathfinder #19, expect a new tale by a new author with new characters in a new part of the world.
Thanks for this post though. As we're making so many changes to the section, we'll definitely revisit the topic of rules and “non-fiction” in the journals. I'd be interested in hearing all you guys' thoughts on that.
What I did with the journals was this. In the first episode of ROTRL I had the pc's encounter a pathfinder by the name of Jylan Chantequi, who was visiting his old adventuring companion, Ameiko. Jylan befriended the pcs and when he left to travel onwards to Magnimar he promised to keep in touch. So i will pereodically give to them opies of his journal which he sends to them. For this i have simply copied and pasted Eando Klines journal and 'tweeked' it slightly hear ad there to better fit my campaign. It makes a great gaming aid and really adds to the flavour of Golarion.
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The journals are fantastic. Well written, evocative, interesting. My second favourite part of the Pathfinder APs so far (after the actual adventure). They give a lot of background to the world and enough information to potentially run adventures in the locales described. I would hate to see the journals go anywhere.
I'd hate to see the journals go. They're consistently entertaining.
Also, they're a slightly less dry and text book-ey way of getting info about the campaign setting into my brain.
My players love reading em too. And when my players know the setting info I don't need to waste session time on lengthy exposition.
So the journal's a win-win as far as I'm concerned.
I agree with the OP 100%. I've never liked fiction in Dragon and I'm not enjoying it in PF. The Black Fox's suggestions for what else could be done with the fiction pages were great. I'd be more than happy to read a novel about the PFS---but I'd rather it wasn't in my gaming book.
I find they flesh out the world in a way that even other fluff doesn't, so I would be disappointed if they ended.
That is how I feel as well.
Also, even if a journal does not directly address the current campaign that doesn't mean it cannot be used for NPC/PC backgrounds, rumors the PCs hear that make the world more alive, actual in-game fiction (Pathfinder), etc.
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It also helps us give the feel for the setting and its titular society of explorers.
And that's why I want fiction in the locations of that are relevant to the products you guys are putting out. It's annoying to read a RPG related novel about an event or a location and think "Hey that place is pretty cool" and then turn to your supplements have have ZERO support for playing there.
Fiction provides in-character/in-world perspective on the people and places we can play at and I think that's very cool.
At first I was unsure of what to think of the journal. Not that I dont like it! On the contrary, Im addicted to books (Im also a writer, but thats not the point ;)). What I worried about what that the episodic format would be too short to come out as something entertaining and useful. Would it simply end up too short for its own good?
I got to say I like what I see, even if I think it could be better (considering the necessary short format). Considering how many people dont like it, might be interesting to explore two different ways to include them: these 6 pages journal be a downloadable (free or not) PDF released with the current issue AND a Pathfinder novels/short stories series. Yes, I already mentioned Pathfinder novels before. Im repetitive. so what!? :P
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I have to admit that I'm a bit behind (to much to read and not enough time to do so) But as far as the journals in RotRL are concerned I could not disagree more with the OP's point of view. Those journals were in no way irrelevant to this AP and to CotCT.
In PF #2,the journal contained a lot of ideas for side treks to include when the PC would eventually travel from Magnimar to Turtleback Ferry.
PF#3 contained info about Kaer Maga. I remember there were quite some people thinking about integrating D2: The Seven Swords of Sin into their campaign.
And I imagine (at least it was the case for me) that most people planning to run CotCT would love the journal's in PF #4,#5 and #6.
As I told before I'm a bit behind. But a short look into the journals in the CotCT issues is enough to find the Cinderlands, Urglin and Belkzen mentioned. This seems to be highly relevant for the AP and for me as a GM it's pure gold.
And so far it has been a great read so I'd miss the journals a lot.
I use a home brew so the aspect where the journal informs the world does not really apply to me. That said their entertaining enough that I don't really begrudge the space. I usually find I have more difficulty with whatever the supporting article is. I'm finding those useful only about 50% of the time.
The first few Journal entries were so irrelevant and dull that I stopped reading them. Much later, I found that the later ones had improved significantly. It's still not how I'd choose to use precious module space, but they're readable now. (Though for CotCT I note that I'm not reading them, even though I have the GM's permission; I think I'm afraid they'll contradict his presentation of the setting.)
I think the crucial thing to avoid is the approach taken in Pathfinder #1--which had none of the zing of fiction, and none of the usefulness of a background article.
Mary
Despite all that, there are changes in the wind. We don't plan to stick with Eando Kline forever and his trek will be wrapping up with Second Darkness. Wrangling a different freelancer every month to convey the same voice has also been both a miracle and a trail, so we're moving away from that as well. The Pathfinder's Journal is meant to be excerpted from actual volumes of the in-game Pathfinder Chronicles, and we'd like to be able to present more stories and detail more untouched parts of our world through them. So, starting with Pathfinder #19, expect a new tale by a new author with new characters in a new part of the world.
Yeah, this is about what I suspected would happen. I'll admit it must be difficult to get a different freelancer lined up every month for a new installment. If you're suggesting a new author will write multiple installments, hey, I'm fine w/ that. New characters in a new part of Golarion is also ok. I've grown attached to Eando Kline, but that doesn't mean I won't like who succeeds him.
Glad also to see there are others who find these PF Journals a fun, inspiring read!
Creative Director
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Considering how many people dont like it...
I'm not sure where you're getting that information... to me, it looks like this thread, for example, is overwhelmingly in favor of the Pathfinder Journal... a trend I see repeated whenever this topic comes up, in fact. So for now, the Journal isn't going anywhere.
EDIT: Yeah, a quick count of the opinions expressed on this thread comes up with something like a 14 pro-Journal votes to only 2 con-Journal votes.
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Creative Director
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I think the crucial thing to avoid is the approach taken in Pathfinder #1--which had none of the zing of fiction, and none of the usefulness of a background article.
If we did an article like the first Journal today, I'd agree. But as part of the FIRST book Pathfinder-related... I disagree 100% with you. It was VERY important to use the first Journal to introduce the Pathfinders AND to use that to introduce the first real block of world information beyond a very small part of Varisia. It's easy to lose sight of how important that was now that Paizo's made such huge steps toward establishing Golarion as a campaign world. Last year at Gen Con, when this first began... I dare say that Journal entry was one of the most important things Paizo printed.
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Back in Dragon both my wife and I never much got into the little short stories that would appear. Sometimes, but not usually. They were disjointed and varied too much.
With the PF Journal, we find that usually the first or second article we devour. It's Golarion info! It's an ongoing pulp serial with the same guy! We like it tons and suggest it continue. Good work.
-DM Jeff
I really like knowing the perspectives of the people that live in the setting, because it helps you to figure out details that can easily be skipped when you do a general overview that gives you the "important" game related information.
When Rich Baker mentioned over on the WOTC boards a few years back that the people in house didn't see the point of the Volo's Guides, I got a bad feeling about the direction of the setting, because it felt a little like being told the only thing important about a village or a city is what equipment you could buy there before setting off to the next dungeon.
Plus, even reading about the "big things" in a campaign setting somethings stick in your mind more readily when you read them as part of a person's perspective rather than just reading facts and figures in an overview type article.
If you read that the perspective character is afraid of people of this or that organization, or if you read that no one really seems to know about this or that threat, it will remind you what the common folk (and the adventurers, before they investigate) know about a given topic.
Add me to the number of readers who love the Journal. I'm translating it for may players now.
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The only fiction I ever read in Dragon was Ben Bova's series of Arthurian pieces. The Journals are essentially just as useless to me. They certainly may have their fans, but I'm not one of them.
That being said, though, they're only 6 pages, and I suppose they help add a bit of flavor here and there to the setting.
EDIT: Yeah, a quick count of the opinions expressed on this thread comes up with something like a 14 pro-Journal votes to only 2 con-Journal votes.
Ok, so here I was trying to convince you of making Pathfinder novels. Can you blame me? :P
(or Im hiding the fact that I can't count...)
Love the Journal. Want to make a graphic novel of it, I love them so much.
I really like the Pathfinder's Journal. It may be fluff, but I think it adds depth and dimension to the world of Golarion. I think one of the hardest things to explain in an RPG is the creators' intended "feel" for the world, and I think fiction can describe this in a way that the crunch simply can't.
The very idea of the Pathfinders, of exploring Golarion, is obviously important to Paizo and central to the Pathfinder RPG (hence the name). It makes sense that since all of us are new to the campaign setting, Paizo invented the Pathfinders as a way to show us strange new locales and intrigue us with possibilities for adventure. In that sense we're all pathfinders--deciding what our own unique paths through Golarion will be.
I love the idea of the Pathfinders as an organization, and I like the variety that the Pathfinder's Journal adds to each installment of the Adventure Paths. I would be sad at this point to see them removed. And this from a guy who never got into the fiction of Dragon magazine! :)
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Director of Narrative
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I dig 'em. I don't have anything fresh to add that hasn't been piled on already, but I love how they provide a different, more lifelike feel to the world that a gazetteer or narrative text in an adventure cannot. The first adventure I ran for my home group as I was converting them was D2 as a one-shot. The information on Kaer Maga in the journal in PF#3(I think) was way more helpful to capturing the life of that strange city than the text in the module was. Both written by the same fella too if I recall correctly.
I've never been a fan of RPG fiction, but these little morsels are delicious.
I'm also a growing fan of the Journal. Originally, I saw them as wasted space, but lately I've found them to be just a terrific source of atmosphere and world-building. They're an excellent way to get across the feel of the setting and have been an inspiration. The mix of action-adventure, swords & sorcery and urban crime has really pointed out to me the pulp-foundation of the Golarion world... which has only made me more of a fan.
I've found myself lately wondering if the Journal will ever be collected as a single volume.
I like the journal. Not my favorite part of the AP books, but they can be very useful as a tool. They've given me lot's of ideas for small talk for NPC's, attitudes, information for the PC's, side quests, and a living feeling for the world in general.
Yet another person here who doesn't care for the journals. I consider them a waste of space and quite inappropriate for the Pathfinder AP books.
But as to the criticism that the journal is just fluff, I'd have to ask, what's wrong with just fluff? Of course, I'm the guy who usually skips reading a monster's stats to get to its ecology and society sections and would rather have a gazetteer of a region than 100 new feats. I always tend to see the “fluff” parts of the game as food for GMs, sparks for adventures, and mining grounds for personal creativity. Even then, though, the Pathfinder's Journal can prove quite useful to a game. If you wanted to run adventures in Urglin, Urgir, Belkzen, or a half dozen other locations, those journals are the go-to source. Take away any of this potential, though, and there’s still the fact that, to a degree, in addition to offering adventures and rules, part of Pathfinder's goal is to simply be a good read.
"What's wrong with fluff?" is a rather silly question (and disingenuous, IMO), considering that this particular bit of fluff:
1) doesn't usually, if ever, have much to do with the AP that it's found in, and2) don't you have a little something called the "Chronicles" line, that is full of fluff? Why are you inappropriately mixing the content?
Hmmm....
I'm not sure where you're getting that information... to me, it looks like this thread, for example, is overwhelmingly in favor of the Pathfinder Journal... a trend I see repeated whenever this topic comes up, in fact. So for now, the Journal isn't going anywhere.
EDIT: Yeah, a quick count of the opinions expressed on this thread comes up with something like a 14 pro-Journal votes to only 2 con-Journal votes.
Don't you worry about that - we're still making our way here.
Of course, I don't think we need to discuss the absolute folly of using an internet messageboard thread to determine something that only proper statistical analysis can provide, right? Right. (Especially when the messageboard shouting-down uber-fans give very skewed results... not surprisingly.)
I really like the Journal.
I like the extra fluff. I like the in-universe style. I like the ongoing narrative. I LIKE that it's not directly tied to the current AP. I like the 'sneak peeks' and easter eggs (The first set of journals have a CotCT easter egg.)
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I was concerned about the stories' "utility" at first, but have quite grown to love them. I never read the stories back in Dragon, and now these are the first thing I read when I get the AP. There's plenty of crunch and adventure left in the AP, even with a few pages devoted to the Journal. It gives me a feel for Golarian as a living place.
As far as where they belong (AP vs Chronicles), I think their serial quality makes them more appropriate for the AP.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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"What's wrong with fluff?" is a rather silly question (and disingenuous, IMO), considering that this particular bit of fluff:
1) doesn't usually, if ever, have much to do with the AP that it's found in, and
2) don't you have a little something called the "Chronicles" line, that is full of fluff? Why are you inappropriately mixing the content?Hmmm....
I don't know. The journals have had a lot to do with the Crimson Throne AP. They're giving us a feel for regions and peoples that are found in the path, and that's wonderful for me.
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I like the journal a lot. I enjoy reading through the adventures of eadro to see the world through the eyes of a "native". It helps me to visualize and to "feel" the world of Golarion and enables me to transmit this "feel" to my players. reading one of the Journal entries (even if I read it multile times before) on the way to my game helps me to clear my mind and to focus on the campaign (and its setting). I really wouldn't miss these any more.
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I'm not sure where you're getting that information... to me, it looks like this thread, for example, is overwhelmingly in favor of the Pathfinder Journal... a trend I see repeated whenever this topic comes up, in fact. So for now, the Journal isn't going anywhere.
EDIT: Yeah, a quick count of the opinions expressed on this thread comes up with something like a 14 pro-Journal votes to only 2 con-Journal votes.
Don't you worry about that - we're still making our way here.
Of course, I don't think we need to discuss the absolute folly of using an internet messageboard thread to determine something that only proper statistical analysis can provide, right? Right. (Especially when the messageboard shouting-down uber-fans give very skewed results... not surprisingly.)
Funny how you criticize James and not the person he was quoting.
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I really like the Journal.
I like the extra fluff. I like the in-universe style. I like the ongoing narrative. I LIKE that it's not directly tied to the current AP. I like the 'sneak peeks' and easter eggs (The first set of journals have a CotCT easter egg.)
What Ross said. The journal is the first thing I read. Actually, I read the journal when I get the PDF and don't read the rest of it until I get the print copy.
-Skeld
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I'm not sure where you're getting that information... to me, it looks like this thread, for example, is overwhelmingly in favor of the Pathfinder Journal... a trend I see repeated whenever this topic comes up, in fact. So for now, the Journal isn't going anywhere.
EDIT: Yeah, a quick count of the opinions expressed on this thread comes up with something like a 14 pro-Journal votes to only 2 con-Journal votes.
Don't you worry about that - we're still making our way here.
Of course, I don't think we need to discuss the absolute folly of using an internet messageboard thread to determine something that only proper statistical analysis can provide, right? Right. (Especially when the messageboard shouting-down uber-fans give very skewed results... not surprisingly.)
I hope you have the material for a proper statistical analysis with a significant result for either pro or contra at hand. Since the title of this thread is an open question and the OP is just the first to answer this question I think pros (not only über-fans) and cons (not only haters) can give us their opinion.
By the way - social statistics - while not nearly an exact science - hold rules and wethods to do a statistical evaluation of answers to oen questions. It is a hell of a lot work to do it right though and I doubt it is necessary, since there will probably be a percentage of "haters" in the contra group equal to the "über fans" in the pro group, so both extremes will lose their statistical significance even if only counting the opinions (provided there are enough voices heard in the thread).Please excuse the use of (probably) bad english concerning statistical terms, but the few years I spent on sozial statistics were on a german university.
Getting a feel for the world is at least as important as the details of the world, if indeed you intend on presenting a dynamic world that has a unique flavor.
Additionally, while material that is directly relevant to the AP has the most practical use, knowing about events and details outside of the AP provides a "living" backdrop that helps establish the feel of the current AP situation. An example of this sort of idea is all of the background material sometimes only hinted at in Tolkien, which in some ways you could say is not "directly" involved with the main story, but it is amazing how much life this "fluff" breathes into the main story.
As a side note, let's leave the snarky and conspiratorial tone out of some of the responses, it's really unnecessary. There is no evidence that Paizo has been trying to pull one over on its customers.
Anyway, that's it for me on the topic, carry on :)
The Pathfinder Journal is quite often the very first thing I read when I get the PDF each month. I look forward to it and feel like it is worth every page it takes up in the volume. It provides great, indepth flavor for the campaign setting that adventures and source articles cannot.
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Creative Director
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Don't you worry about that - we're still making our way here.
Of course, I don't think we need to discuss the absolute folly of using an internet messageboard thread to determine something that only proper statistical analysis can provide, right? Right. (Especially when the messageboard shouting-down uber-fans give very skewed results... not surprisingly.)
Of course, I'm not only basing the future of Pathfinder on this one thread. There are dozens of other threads here, on ENworld, even on the WotC boards and elsewhere that I monitor. There are also chat rooms that I use to gauge how readers react to stuff we print. And emails from customers. And sales figures. And convention feedback. And reviews. And experience based on how our customers have reacted to similar content over the past five years (first hand) or past 30 years (2nd or 3rd hand). And more that I'm probably forgetting about.
The results from all of this research, at this point, indicate to me that spending six pages a volume on the Pathfinder Journal is good for Pathfinder. It is, of course, an evolving process, and I'll continue to keep an eye on things to do my best to make sure that Pathfinder's the best experience it can be for the thousands of customers who read it every month.
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And I would add, this is an opportunity for the PAIZO community to challenge others to stop focusing on this thing called "crunch". One glance at the superior quality of PAIZO's products, coupled with the artistic story-genius of James, Nick and the others, and this community can see that what we hold in our hands each month is a rich banquet of both game and inspiration.
Its time to step out of "crunch mode" and enter quality game mode, storytelling mode, great gamemastery mode. Asking the editor-in-chief to be more surgically utilitarian about page space is a bit like asking filmwriters or a DM to just cut to the chase. Like telling Mozart he's used too many notes in the composition. Think spectrum - there is a place for all of this richness within Pathfinder.
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"What's wrong with fluff?" is a rather silly question (and disingenuous, IMO), considering that this particular bit of fluff:
1) doesn't usually, if ever, have much to do with the AP that it's found in, and
2) don't you have a little something called the "Chronicles" line, that is full of fluff? Why are you inappropriately mixing the content?Hmmm....
But they tell you about other things happening in the world at the same time as the AP,which I love, it gives us the feel that the world isn't static and waiting on the PC's actions.
For example: