You should not remove artwork to make room for more powers, that's just silly.
Removing some of the powers/spells and making them rituals is a stroke of genius.
Where's the "jaw drop" emoticon?
No. I have not published an adventure, but I've definitely been interested in writing one to be published, so believe it or not, I do value your opinion.
Oh, I do believe that. We may have had a rocky start, but I've got no issues with our current talks. We've probably not had a conversation before, but just FYI you can usually assume I'm good-to-go and on the positive side of things unless I specifically state otherwise. If folks insist on dragging things down into the muck rather than having a constructive dialogue, I pretty much just throw out the [IGNORE] tag and move on...
You're right. I can see how this might at first appear to be a campaign destroyer. But, I think if you dissected each fantasy race and applied it this way, you could come up with similar results.
What about some 3.5 races?
What about Warforged? They don't need to eat, sleep, and never get exhausted. How is any nation supposed to defend against an army of them? But, they do exist in Eberron, and there really aren't any nations that the warforged control (I'm excluding the Mournland here for obvious reasons).
What about Changelings? They can simply change their shape to assume anyone's identity? Why haven't they murdered all the noble's in the world and assumed their identities and taken control? Seems like it'd be easy. Pose as a chamber maid, learn the mannerisms of the lord in question, kill, swap places, rinse repeat.
Interestingly, both of these races have come up in discussions in the past on this very topic. For the Eberron setting itself, Keith et. al. have in general accounted for their abilities in such a way as to make them work in the setting. I have allowed both races to be used in other settings, but they do indeed shift the feel of the campaign considerably if they are a populace race (rather than a one-off as with a "found in a time-lost cavern" backstory). Eberron is actually a setting that could pretty readily accommodate the eladrin--given the powers of several Houses, the prevalence of artificers/mage wrights, and the general ubiquitous nature of magic in the overall setting there is already a built in assumption of defense against magics. This is not something I'd assume in a typical medieval fantasy setting such as Greyhawk, Mystara, etc. So, having a race like the warforged or changeling (or eladrin) that is setting-specific and accommodated in that setting is no problem. Having such races as Core (and thus setting the expectation for many that the race is available in any game) is problematic.
I'm sure you could take any number of races - hell, especially some monstrous races - and include them in these types of scenarios.
I think the solution is to assume that people have developed defenses against such things. Also, the population of Eladrin may not be near what humans are. Why would a kingdom change it's entire defense system because a rare breed can do some wild things?
I'm not saying this is a fix for the problem. I am saying this problem is prevalent in a fantasy world with races that have all sorts of strange and possibly terrifying abilities.
This is correct, and I should probably state that my general assumption when assessing a rule set is to place it in standard medieval fantasy. In some cases (hopefully noted by the game) this is not appropriate and I modify my assumptions accordingly. But for D&D, this has been my standard for decades. This is the first time I've had a standard core race "break" this assumption so badly. It's not an impossible situation, and it's definitely not something that can't be explained/accommodated in setting-specific terms. But it does force a reevaluation that I haven't had to make before. And it's definitely something for which DMs that are assuming "business as usual" should be prepared...
I would think nearly any spawn creating monster would be ten times more world shattering (based on what I can tell of your metric here) than the Eladrin's Fey Step. I mean, a Shadow or two could easily build up enough spawn to be quite a menance. Three touches is all it'll take on average to create another, and if you have hundreds (or thousands!) of the things swarming over towns and villages, your country is going to go to hell in handbasket quite quick.
That said, let's look at Fey Step. You have to see where you're going. You move 25 feet. Eladrin's can't see in the dark. I'm just not seeing the problem. Sure, they do make good scouts/thieves, but then so do Halflings right? Maybe I'm obtuse (and I promise I'm not being so on purpose) but I just can't think of any situations where this is obviously a deal breaker. Like P1n says, a powerful advantage, sure, but not game-breaking.
Cheers! :)
:jawdrop:
:jawdrop:Lilith?? Help!
I think it isn't quite correct to claim Powers are scattered throughout the book. Except for one specific subset of Powers, all Powers are in the Class chapter, in the section devoted to the specific class that gets said Power. I'd say your player's frustration was more because they were using a pregen than anything about the book itself ... if a player had selected the feat that offered that power, they'd likely know where it came from.
As for the derth of options, I think there are many more than you give credit for. While you do get a pick of two (or three) our of four or six At-Wills, those are really just your basic attack, a replacement for your general swing. All other slots are filled by a pick of one out of three or more, which means most characters of the same class will only have a few duplicate powers, if any.
I don't know if you've read over the essay attached to the New Paradigm thread, but it makes the point that 4E has less flexibility in making your character than 3E but exchanges that for more flexibility in playing your character than 3E. It is a good frame of reference to look through when seeing the system.
Cheers! :)
Oh, I do believe that. We may have had a rocky start, but I've got no issues with our current talks. We've probably not had a conversation before, but just FYI you can usually assume I'm good-to-go and on the positive side of things unless I specifically state otherwise. If folks insist on dragging things down into the muck rather than having a constructive dialogue, I pretty much just throw out the [IGNORE] tag and move on...
Right on.
Interestingly, both of these races have come up in discussions in the past on this very topic. For the Eberron setting itself, Keith et. al. have in general accounted for their abilities in such a way as to make them work in the setting. I have allowed both races to be used in other settings, but they do indeed shift the feel of the campaign considerably if they are a populace race (rather than a one-off as with a "found in a time-lost cavern" backstory). Eberron is actually a setting that could pretty readily accommodate the eladrin--given the powers...
I guess that's probably why we have differing views on this topic. I usually run Eberron by default. :)
I would think nearly any spawn creating monster would be ten times more world shattering (based on what I can tell of your metric here) than the Eladrin's Fey Step. I mean, a Shadow or two could easily build up enough spawn to be quite a menance. Three touches is all it'll take on average to create another, and if you have hundreds (or thousands!) of the things swarming over towns and villages, your country is going to go to hell in handbasket quite quick.
You are correct--and that's why I constrain such creatures in some way. Incorporeality, spawning, etherealness, and other such nastiness has to be properly controlled in what I consider a "standard" fantasy setting, otherwise they blow the whole thing up.
I convinced a DM once (online PBP death match style game) to let me use a Shadow. Silly DM...
That said, let's look at Fey Step. You have to see where you're going. You move 25 feet. Eladrin's can't see in the dark. I'm just not seeing the problem. Sure, they do make good scouts/thieves, but then so do Halflings right? Maybe I'm obtuse (and I promise I'm not being so on purpose) but I just can't think of any situations where this is obviously a deal breaker. Like P1n says, a powerful advantage, sure, but not game-breaking.
Cheers! :)
If the castle walls, merchant doors, pits, chasms, and such already discussed haven't started to elucidate the point, I'm likely unable to do so. I simply see far too many ways (again in a standard fantasy setting) where such a race as Core could break too many assumptions to readily accommodate. Throw them in Eberron as suggested and I'm fine. But if the PHB is to be used for standard fantasy and the eladrin are a standard race, then what I consider established assumptions about medieval fantasy are no longer relevant.
The Horizon Walker experience I referenced earlier is a large part of my objection--that is the only character I ever played in 3e that I voluntarily retired as too powerful. Granted I'm not a "powergamer" or some such (I never use more than 2 core classes and 1 prestige class, I build characters to a concept rather than damage output, etc.).
Time will tell, I suppose. Perhaps I should join a 4e PbP to try it out...
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What about some 3.5 races?What about Warforged? They don't need to eat, sleep, and never get exhausted. How is any nation supposed to defend against an army of them? But, they do exist in Eberron, and there really aren't any nations that the warforged control (I'm excluding the Mournland here for obvious reasons).
What about Changelings? They can simply change their shape to assume anyone's identity? Why haven't they murdered all the noble's in the world and assumed their identities and taken control? Seems like it'd be easy. Pose as a chamber maid, learn the mannerisms of the lord in question, kill, swap places, rinse repeat.
I find it funny that the two examples you mention are the newer races from Eberron, to which some players/DMs take offense for the very reasons you mention.
If the castle walls, merchant doors, pits, chasms, and such already discussed haven't started to elucidate the point, I'm likely unable to do so. I simply see far too many ways (again in a standard fantasy setting) where such a race as Core could break too many assumptions to readily accommodate. Throw them in Eberron as suggested and I'm fine. But if the PHB is to be used for standard fantasy and the eladrin are a standard race, then what I consider established assumptions about medieval fantasy are no longer relevant.
Castle Walls over 30' would be un-Steppable for Eladrin. In a world of giants and flying Wizard, three story walls sounds impressive, without me even having to look at what was used in the real world. And I'd think there would be guards on those walls ...
I'd expect merchants to keep their stores shuttered and dark at night, for precisely that reason. As Tharen mentioned, keyhole stoppers probably aren't a bad idea either.
If a pit was less than 25' deep, an Eladrin can easily get down or out, but remember it's a move action to Step, so you can't just fall in and Step right before you hit the ground. Even jumping in probably wouldn't let you do so; you can't take the move action needed to Step in the middle of another move action already going. As a DM I'd probably allow it, but them I'm a big softie. :)
For chasms, see my above statements about pits.
Really, if you're objection is that these guys would run the show in a standard medieval setting, I'd say the issue isn't Eladrin but that your setting is far off from what DnD actually portrays. Because between flying creatures/big boom spells/miraculous healing and several other "DnD-isms" the only thing DnD really simulates is ... itself. And even then, somewhat poorly, as the lack of our Shadow overlords proves. :P
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here, as I still don't perceive the problems you do (and I think it may come down to differences in our core assumptions here).
Go play an Eladrin something or other and come report your adventures. I'd like to see the uses of Fey Step you come up with. :)
Really, if you're objection is that these guys would run the show in a standard medieval setting, I'd say the issue isn't Eladrin but that your setting is far off from what DnD actually portrays. Because between flying creatures/big boom spells/miraculous healing and several other "DnD-isms" the only thing DnD really simulates is ... itself. And even then, somewhat poorly, as the lack of our Shadow overlords proves. :P
I've never (in 20+ years) had this problem in D&D before; that tells me something...Would I get this from allowing non-core options? Sure. But that's why the DM's responsible for controlling such things. But out-of-the-box D&D? No. I've been able to take every edition, plop it in Mystara (my favorite D&D setting) and been good to go. Sure, I could probably do the same with 4e buy limiting/eliminating some of the core items, but that's a hard row to hoe given how much players love their toys once in sight.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here, as I still don't perceive the problems you do (and I think it may come down to differences in our core assumptions here).
Yes, definitely so. I'm not out to prove you wrong or anything--we obviously come at this from very different angles and I don't believe there is a "right" answer anymore than there's a "right" way to play D&D.
But I expect a report here when you get a surprise from an eladrin fey-steppin' through your plans! ;^)
But I expect a report here when you get a surprise from an eladrin fey-steppin' through your plans! ;^)
Lol, I'd be happy to provide one. So far though, no Eladrin in our group. Two Dwarves (one's me!), an Elf, a Human, a Dragonborn, a Half-Elf, and a Human. Yeah, I have a big group.
But as soon as an Eladrin shows up I'll let you know. ;)
Really, if you're objection is that these guys would run the show in a standard medieval setting, I'd say the issue isn't Eladrin but that your setting is far off from what DnD actually portrays. Because between flying creatures/big boom spells/miraculous healing and several other "DnD-isms" the only thing DnD really simulates is ... itself. And even then, somewhat poorly, as the lack of our Shadow overlords proves. :P
At this point, I have to ask just what kind of D&D are you playing? D&D may not simulate medieval life but some variation of that is the usual setting, down to most of the physical trappings at the very least. From Greyhawk to Forgotten Realms, the cultures are variations on generic Euro-fantasy medieval.
They get away with this because, apart from the adventurers and the things they draw to them like weirdness magnets, the fantastic elements are generally rare. The rarer they are, the more normal medieval the setting can be.
Which brings up the problem. If the medieval fantasy tropes hold, perhaps because eladrin are really rare, how do you keep the exploitive eladrin PC under some form of control or in balance? Thirty foot tall castle walls aren't that unusual, but buildings aren't usually too tightly put together. If all that eladrin needs to do is see where he's going, it's not that hard to find the chink in the shutters, the gap under the door. And it's not that hard for a creature with low-light vision to get enough light in the area to see something.
I've been thinking that the main hope of balance for that power is a player who is insufficiently determined, insufficiently imaginative, or cooperative enough not to have too much fun with it.
Actually (don't you just hate sentences that start with "actually"? I do!) I don't care about the Eldarin's world-changing potential. This is a game that contains dragons and Dead Who Walk fer goodness' sake :)
If the Eldarin was a monster who could teleport once per five minutes I wouldn't bat an eyelid, and consider it a fun challenge to fit into the worldview. But it's not. It's a Race played by a player who's going to wreak unholy havoc all over my carefully crafted scenarios because they can bypass anything that takes up less than 25' of space without breaking a sweat.
No other "standard" race has a power like this that's quite so problematic. When it comes to scenario design it doesn't matter whether the characters are dwarves, warforged (or even dwarforged!), elves, orcs or blue hicky men from Mars. But add Eldarin into the mix and all of your pit traps are suddenly at least 30' deep, all doors are airtight so the Eldarin can't peek underneath and teleport through and all darned corridor traps fill at least 6 squares. You're designing around a racial ability. I'll say it again - that's a Very Bad Thing! Make it Daily and that throws the choices back onto the player, not onto the unfortunate scenario designer.
So yeh, it's a problem.
I'd say, why does your pit have to be so deep the Eladrin can't get out? So he Fey Steps to the top, that just means he doesn't need his friends to throw down a rope. Or so he can jump past the 20' of flamethrowers in the corridor. His friends still can't, and I doubt the Eladrin will be able to succeed on his own, so he still hasn't made it past the trap.
I guess if your entire party was composed of Eladrin, they'd be able to ignore stuff like that, but I'd think such a group is a bit outside the norm.
But I can see that this is another spot where I don't think we'll come to any agreement, so perhaps best I leave it at that.
Cheers! :)
Rather the overall campaign setting. This race thwarts everything I would generally assume as defensive measures in a medieval fantasy setting. They would quite literally walk all over any but the most powerful of kingdoms. So I'm forced to make higher walls, wider chasms, deeper pits, and vision-blocking locks in order to make this racial concept fit my logic of a setting. That's not good. Go beyond the adventure/mission. Think about the world in its entirety, populated by a race such as this.
Right, this is a race that could conquer almost any race due to the fact that they wouldn't need seige technology in warfare.
At this point, I have to ask just what kind of D&D are you playing? D&D may not simulate medieval life but some variation of that is the usual setting, down to most of the physical trappings at the very least. From Greyhawk to Forgotten Realms, the cultures are variations on generic Euro-fantasy medieval.They get away with this because, apart from the adventurers and the things they draw to them like weirdness magnets, the fantastic elements are generally rare. The rarer they are, the more normal medieval the setting can be.
Which brings up the problem. If the medieval fantasy tropes hold, perhaps because eladrin are really rare, how do you keep the exploitive eladrin PC under some form of control or in balance? Thirty foot tall castle walls aren't that unusual, but buildings aren't usually too tightly put together. If all that eladrin needs to do is see where he's going, it's not that hard to find the chink in the shutters, the gap under the door. And it's not that hard for a creature with low-light vision to get enough light in the area to see something.
I've been thinking that the main hope of balance for that power is a player who is insufficiently determined, insufficiently imaginative, or cooperative enough not to have too much fun with it.
Physical trappings sure. But the weird and the fantastical are simply not that rare if played by standard DnD assumptions. In 3E a certain number in the population were spellcasters, and there was a given list of spells available. Likewise, magical items were readily abundant, and even small towns/villages had a GP limit high enough to allow for many low powered magical items.
It may not be the way you play it, but core default DnD is a pretty wild and wahoo place, with an extremely high level of magic assumed in the setting. Eberron is an attempt to take all that magic and actually depict society based around it, as opposed to the FR model which seems to more or less ignore the implications here (not being huge into FR, I'm just going on what I remember from back in the day.)
Part of the problem may be that in 2E, and earlier, magic was a good bit rarer. But 3E certainly ramped it up to 11 in that regard, so older settings can look a bit strange when viewed through that lens.
I'm not sure what the problem with Eladrin getting into buildings is? Couldn't a Rogue just pick the lock, or a Wizard just Knock the door?
Right, this is a race that could conquer almost any race due to the fact that they wouldn't need seige technology in warfare.
The same could be said for the many races that can fly. Except in this case, 30' high castle walls shuts down their wall scaling abilities. ;)
What about some 3.5 races?
What about Warforged? They don't need to eat, sleep, and never get exhausted. How is any nation supposed to defend against an army of them? But, they do exist in Eberron, and there really aren't any nations that the warforged control (I'm excluding the Mournland here for obvious reasons).
I think this is a bad exaple, given that if I remember it right (Eberron players don't skin me if I'm wrong) that the warforged were created as weapons of war. It was kind of the point. I also have the impression that that is why the device that created them had been destroyed in the history of the setting, and was not still an active device.
What about Changelings? They can simply change their shape to assume anyone's identity? Why haven't they murdered all the noble's in the world and assumed their identities and taken control? Seems like it'd be easy. Pose as a chamber maid, learn the mannerisms of the lord in question, kill, swap places, rinse repeat.
I agree. I also think that Changlings are an unbalanced character race. When I introduced them into my world, I made them hated and reviled by other shapeshifting races, and these races will kill them on sight, especially true Dopplegangers. It made it easy to have some of these creatures hunting Changelings to keep them from growing too ambitious.
I'm sure you could take any number of races - hell, especially some monstrous races - and include them in these types of scenarios.
True, but we're not talking about monsterous races. We're taling about elves as a core class. (I know they're not called elves anymore, but damn it they're still elves to me.)
using sticky tabs to mark pages
I see people using tabs on every kind of reference book that exists, just as I see people not using them. This is an utter non-issue.I agree - but people are using that non-issue as an excuse for the PHB's poor layout.
Uhug! My wife does this all the time. I can't even get a read through of a new book without it sprouting sticky note and flags. It makes me crazy!
I guess the problem with pit traps and Eldarin isn't so much how deep they are, but how long/wide they are. It'll take a 26' long pit trap to make an Eldarin stop in his tracks. Of course, if they don't spot it they'll fall in just like anyone else - then if it's less than 25' deep they'll just teleport right out again!
One quick note - I've had an email from one of my players already asking if their Eldarin Wizard can buy a mirror (ALSO not in the PHB equipment list!!) so they can teleport 'round corners. I kid you not. And that's AFTER we've nerfed it to Daily.......
Well, true. But once the Eladrin is on the other side of this pit they'll ... I think this is the part you lose me on. The rest of the party is on the other side. Are they jumping down then climbing up with the Eladrin's assistance? Couldn't the Rogue have climbed down and then up again without it anyway? How would you have preferred them to solve this issue? Is the Eladrin playing with your McGuffin that you had left out of (what you had thought) was the character's reach?
In 3E, I don't think a mirror gave you LoS. I don't think the 4E rules address this one way or another. Sounds like your players are particularly tricksy though. ;)
The same could be said for the many races that can fly. Except in this case, 30' high castle walls shuts down their wall scaling abilities. ;)Right, this is a race that could conquer almost any race due to the fact that they wouldn't need seige technology in warfare.
yes, but again, there aren't any flying races in the core races in the PHB. (My guess for that reason.)
I guess the problem with pit traps and Eldarin isn't so much how deep they are, but how long/wide they are. It'll take a 26' long pit trap to make an Eldarin stop in his tracks. Of course, if they don't spot it they'll fall in just like anyone else - then if it's less than 25' deep they'll just teleport right out again!
One quick note - I've had an email from one of my players already asking if their Eldarin Wizard can buy a mirror (ALSO not in the PHB equipment list!!) so they can teleport 'round corners. I kid you not. And that's AFTER we've nerfed it to Daily.......
What I haven't seen addressed is how Fey Step applies to Backstab...4E does still have backstab, right?
What I haven't seen addressed is how Fey Step applies to Backstab...4E does still have backstab, right?I guess the problem with pit traps and Eldarin isn't so much how deep they are, but how long/wide they are. It'll take a 26' long pit trap to make an Eldarin stop in his tracks. Of course, if they don't spot it they'll fall in just like anyone else - then if it's less than 25' deep they'll just teleport right out again!
One quick note - I've had an email from one of my players already asking if their Eldarin Wizard can buy a mirror (ALSO not in the PHB equipment list!!) so they can teleport 'round corners. I kid you not. And that's AFTER we've nerfed it to Daily.......
Another question is does Fey Step allow you to take someone with you? I can't remember from the description.
I also don't like Fey Step. Or more accurately, I like it too much. Every character I find an excuse to want it. Dwarf Fighter. But Fey Step will allow me to get behind the front rank and escape being surrounded. Human Rogue. But Fey Step will allow me to sneak better and back stab. Elf Wizard. But Fey Step will help me escape and get into better artillery position. I think it trumps other racial powers. It might become like the 3.0 one level of Ranger multi-classing. Everyone does it. A year of community playtesting will tell.
EDIT: And LoS proof closets and 26' pits are just messing with players. It is only economical for Eladrin society or larger towns to have LoS proof cells. Would a 26' pit kill a 1st level rogue? Blind folds can to easily be scraped off. The point is not to 'beat the players at the game.' They should have fun with thier powers. If their powers are too powerful (odd expression) then it should be addressed.
My question is:
Why was this not spotted during development and playtesting?I can see a lot of potential to abuse this ability, but maybe, in actual gameplay, this turns out not to be an Issue.
Not the kind of thing thats all that likely to come up in play testing. Your doing shorter campaigns, your being very co-operative with the DM, your testing mechanics as they are put in front of you and not running rampant through some DMs world succumbing to greed.
I actually like the 3/4 spread chapter openers, so that part of the review struck me as akin to the luddite request to print books with no art so we can fit more words in. Not sympathetic to that approach.
I haven't had a chance to read my PH yet, so I can't really speak to the rest of the review.
Ah, yer talkin' like an editor! :)
Actually, I agree. I think that most of the objection to the expansive artwork is tied to the lack of content and the increase of font size. There is no doubt that many people feel as the reviewer did: We've been shortchanged.
I really like the new layout of the PHB, and am puzzled at the critique. Need a power? The class and level will lead you to it almost instantly. Need to know pretty much anything else? It's laid out in very easy to find way. Maybe the book was written for my way of thinking, but I find it VASTLY easier to find than anything in 3E. I'm sure there are niggling little rules that only appear in some strange, inappropriate place, but so far I haven't found any.
The biggest issue we have had in our group is a 3.5 mindset. Essentially we have spent more time trying to find a rule that no longer exists then anything else. We even know that the rule might well not exist but one wants to play by the rules so one wants to check. the problem is where exactl;y do you look for a rule if your not sure it even exists anymore?
That Fey Step means you can’t put your Eldarin in jail.
Don't be ridiculous. There are any number of ways to restrain an eladrin even with fey step. A hood might be the easiest. Another would be a 30' pit.
Not meaning to be picky but a 30' pit couldn't hold a creature of 5' height that can "step" 25'. Reach up, do small jump, "step" and your pulling yourself out with no difficulty.
As to the original review.
I agree on the following:
Index
Glossary
General Powers (or lack of)
Eladrin "fey step"
Oh and a side note which is easier:
A)
Providing all jails with with special cells.
Providing all peace officers with special equipment.
Covering all windows and making all areas dark (and thus a great area for other monsters to lurk in).
Covering all key holes.
Fixing all doors, windows, walls and roofs so that there is no cracks to look through.
Or B)
Banning Eladrin from your city on the basis that theft rates skyrocket when they are around.
What I haven't seen addressed is how Fey Step applies to Backstab...4E does still have backstab, right?Yep. Fey Step is a Move Action so an Eldarin Rogue can Teleport to Flank an opponent (for example), get Combat Advantage to gain +2 to hit, and make a Sneak Attack doing (at least) an extra 2d6 damage. Heck, that attack could be a Power too, so they could use (for example) Tortuous Strike to do 2[W]+2d6+DEX damage. That's kinda cool!
As Fey Step is per Encounter (so is Tortuous Strike) though, they could only do that trick once in that combat. Just like any other Rogue, they could use Bluff once in the encounter (the next round, maybe!) to gain Combat Advantage again and use Sneak Attack once more against the same poor mook, even if they're no longer flanked.
Fey Step in combat (as, I reckon, the game designers thought it would only be used!) is pretty good. It's the out-of-combat once-per-5 minutes abuses I've a problem with.
Agreed.
I would think nearly any spawn creating monster would be ten times more world shattering (based on what I can tell of your metric here) than the Eladrin's Fey Step. I mean, a Shadow or two could easily build up enough spawn to be quite a menance. Three touches is all it'll take on average to create another, and if you have hundreds (or thousands!) of the things swarming over towns and villages, your country is going to go to hell in handbasket quite quick.
Yeah - but evaluating what every monster should actually do to ones campaign world is a bad idea. That way lies madness. The monsters are under the DMs control - ergo they never break the system. Players are not under the DMs control - a fact they often seem to enjoy demonstrating in the most annoying of ways.
In 3e I've had characters Polymorph their allies into small animals before to cheat spell descriptions before. I'd disallow it now though.
Bag of Holding. The rest of the party rides around inside the bag.
True, but we're thinking PLAYERS here. I've run adventures where the characters start in prison. What am I going to do?
Design better than you are now?
There have been multiple examples of ways to deal with fey step in this thread. You can either take inspiration from them, house rule fey step, expand the definition of encounter--or all three--and move on.
Others of us have no problems with it, have fun games with it, and have not found it to be the absolute problem you're suggesting it is. It's not.
Saying "D&D has to satisfy a far wider range of experiences." is just pretentious.
Regardless of whether you feel it's pretentious, it's true. You need only look at this very thread to see how differently people play and expect D&D to be. The strength of D&D, I've long maintained, is its ability to cater to such a wide variety of play styles. Star Wars, however, has more limitations in the kinds of styles of play it offers, not the least of which is that it's but a single campaign setting.
I do think the Fey Step is a powerful ability. It certainly has the ability to circumvent many traditional challenges.
At the risk of drawing ire, I say that this is largely a gamist issue. If a player approaches D&D with the mentality that he must win, of course that player is going to look for every exploit to get an edge. Abuse of an ability like this could severely unbalance the game.
From a narrative approach, an ability like this is likely to be used to advance the story, not destroy it.
Either way, I think talking to the players is the best approach. If they understand and accept that in order to make the game/story interesting their players must face challenges they will not try to sidestep them all the time.
I do think the Fey Step is a powerful ability. It certainly has the ability to circumvent many traditional challenges.
Tentatively, we've ruled that fey step will only allow you to teleport through squares (shudder...heh) that you could pass through physically if you were walking through them. So you couldn't fey step through a chainlink fence, for example, but you can fey step over a pit, through fire, etc. because you could physically pass through those squares.
I certainly understand your reasoning, but what is the point of Fey Step once you implement that rule? Why not just do away with it completely?
I certainly understand your reasoning, but what is the point of Fey Step once you implement that rule? Why not just do away with it completely?
Most of the circumstances where you'd use fey step are preserved, in my view. You're just eliminating things like someone teleporting through a key hole because they can see into the next room. Things that really "break" a setting unless you come up with some extraordinary means of dealing with them.
If your player want fey step primarily to teleport into locked places, for example, I think you've got problems. But it's still there to get past obstacles, etc so long as there isn't a physical barrier in the way.
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But add Eldarin into the mix and all of your pit traps are suddenly at least 30' deep, all doors are airtight so the Eldarin can't peek underneath and teleport through and all darned corridor traps fill at least 6 squares. You're designing around a racial ability. I'll say it again - that's a Very Bad Thing! Make it Daily and that throws the choices back onto the player, not onto the unfortunate scenario designer.
Your pit traps can stay 10' deep if you'd like. You can only teleport to a spot if you have line of sight (PHB p. 286). Unless you've got 10' tall eladrin running around, you're OK on this one. Sure, they can jump 5' up to see over it, but jumping is a move action - they can't start another action until that is finished (unless it's an interrupt, which fey step isn't.) By the time they can fey step, they've lost line of sight.
For doors, you may have a point, depending on how you treat line of sight. Personally, I do not allow line of sight through closed doors (this has come up with 3rd edition spells already.) But if you do allow it, then eladrin can step through doors. That would be a problem, albeit one that also carries danger for a lone eladrin (but a party of eladrin neatly sidesteps that difficulty too...)
For traps, yes, eladrin can bypass small traps once they've been triggered. Of course, they can still trigger them, and unless it's an all-eladrin party, the rest of the group still needs to deal with it. And it's not that hard to come up with a goal that requires you to deal with a trap - the goal is in the area of the trap, or something like that.
I'm going to stick with 'good power, not game breaking.'
Drew Garrett
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They can see the edge of the pit, so they can teleport up to grab hold of the edge and heave themselves up. As another posted has already said, that means that it'll take at least a 30' deep pit (that's pretty much the height of a two storey house, including roof) to hold an Eldarin - 25' Fey Step, plus their height.
Game breaking? Probalby not, but it's far too open to abuse as a per Encounter ability out of combat.
How long do you expect a 10' pit to hold non-Eladrin players?
With your example, he uses a move action (fey-step) and another move action (climb) replacing his standard action. And that assumes he fell into the pit at the beginning of his turn, or on some one else's turn. If he fell in while moving, he's down there that turn, and getting out at the end of the following turn. And using his 1/encounter ability to boot. That seems a fair enough trade to me.
But, by the rules, he can't even do that!
Climb, like fey step, is NOT an interrupt. So, the eladrin fey steps to his current location, but 10' in the air (or 5', if you want, so he can grab on - whatever.) He's now standing in the air. He falls. When he's finished falling, he can make his Athletics check to climb. He is NOT already grabbing the edge. While falling, he can make an acrobatics check to reduce damage - that is a free action when you fall. He might argue he could use Athletics to grab the edge, but by the rules, that is available if you fall while climbing, not if you just fall.
If you allow free combination of abilities, and make starting abilities into interrupts, you can get some of these difficulties (but again, getting out of a 10' pit using 2 actions and a 1/encounter ability is just fine with me.) But if you decide to use the rules as written, this isn't such a problem.
Drew Garrett
Bag of Holding. The rest of the party rides around inside the bag.
In 3e I've had characters Polymorph their allies into small animals before to cheat spell descriptions before. I'd disallow it now though.
I had my players try that. But they really didn't pay attention to the math.
A bag of holding with a few pounds of coin in it. Add dwarf with shield and sword in full plate. His boots are cleated (see pointing things and bags of holding) and his weight with equipment caused it to burst.
I gave him a save and he barely avoided having his body getting blown to the Astral and having his head stayed on the prime (he was standing only shoulders deep in the bag).
Instead he got to experience the "wonders" of plane travel very early.
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Go on, find the Moradin's Rescue Power using the Contents page and Index. Now imagine a new player doing that mid-game because they're playing a pre-generated Dwarven Cleric against an Ogre and they want to know if it applies.
Which is precisely why all powers should be recorded and calculated in full on the character sheet or a few cards. 4e can be played quite well without a single PHB spine crack.