My party is just getting set to investigate Kuluth Mar and all the monstrosities theirin. The Beastlords (the name they got in the Greyhawk Arena, long story)are 12th level with a human ranger (archery style) with Undead as a favored enemy, a human artificer with a warforged fighter cohort, an elven psion, a human paladin mounted on a griffon (nickname "Harpoon Missle," as he does about as much damage as that particular ship-killing missle on a mounted charge with his lance), and a human cleric/combat medic (think Piffany from Nodwick and you'll get the idea). I am having a hard time not imagining this area as a huge TPK. The Worm Naga passage in particular. I think that being subjected to 1-3 feeblemind attacks every round they descend is going to result in the whole party (with the possible exception of the Psion or maybe the Cleric) being ready for Special Ed by the time they come out the other end of hole. Their saves are pretty good, but asking party members to make multiple saves every round or become Forrest Gump is asking a lot, even with the use of action points. They may not be dead by the time they come out, but they most certainly will have problems getting back to civilization. I am considering nerfing the Feeblemind to a spell-like ability as opposed to a gaze attack. Thoughts? What happened with your groups when they ran this little gauntlet
Any help I could get with this section, and the whole Spire of Long Shadows, would be greatly appreciated.
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The Worm Nagas can be quite easily handled by the just not shooting every Feeblemind they have. In such a situation, I'd accept not playing absolutely optimally - especially since the Nagas do not have much to gain from the defense of Kulat Mar. Once the party kills one or two of them, i doubt they push the offense against the characters, unless they assault the tunnels.
I would be more worried about the "Angels of the Worm". Highly mobile, and the Sword Archon's dive attack can really mess up the caster's day. All in all, Spire has IMHO 2 really tough fights, one the Angels (and potentially, the first Kyuss knight, if he is still up. These guys where freaking Generals in life - they should know when to retreat, and eat a wormswarm)
The second, of course, is the Harbinger, possibly aided by the other Knights.
It depends on how much you want to strain your characters. The Harbinger alone is overrated with his CR 17, i think... but adding the Kyuss Knights to the battle may easily be too much for your group.
Long story short: Be creative, don't always ride down the optimal route - and be merciless enough to keep things interesting.
I suspect that many problems occur if a party isn't fully prepared. Do they have buffs up or ready? Do they have potions and scrolls ready for backup plans?
I find myself most often kicking my party's asses when they don't do simple buffs like resist energy. It's a pet peeve of mine.
This adventure is where it really hit the fan for my group. After having their ass's collectively handed to them by the archons and the undead on the first level they realized that they were in no way ready to handle the place without equipment upgrades. I allowed them to return to (Manzorian) via teleports and procure some new items. The magic item compendium has armor crystals and at least one robe that can protect against negative energy attacks. The worm naga passage isn't too bad IF you don't bring them all against the group at once. I moved them in by two's and had others setup along the tunnels caves ready to ambush as they moved in. The party did retreat from the nagas once but that is how you learn. I count making the party retreat and rethink their kicking the doors in strategy as a win in my book.
My party is just getting set to investigate Kuluth Mar and all the monstrosities theirin. The Beastlords (the name they got in the Greyhawk Arena, long story)are 12th level with a human ranger (archery style) with Undead as a favored enemy, a human artificer with a warforged fighter cohort, an elven psion, a human paladin mounted on a griffon (nickname "Harpoon Missle," as he does about as much damage as that particular ship-killing missle on a mounted charge with his lance), and a human cleric/combat medic (think Piffany from Nodwick and you'll get the idea). I am having a hard time not imagining this area as a huge TPK. The Worm Naga passage in particular. I think that being subjected to 1-3 feeblemind attacks every round they descend is going to result in the whole party (with the possible exception of the Psion or maybe the Cleric) being ready for Special Ed by the time they come out the other end of hole. Their saves are pretty good, but asking party members to make multiple saves every round or become Forrest Gump is asking a lot, even with the use of action points. They may not be dead by the time they come out, but they most certainly will have problems getting back to civilization. I am considering nerfing the Feeblemind to a spell-like ability as opposed to a gaze attack. Thoughts? What happened with your groups when they ran this little gauntlet
Any help I could get with this section, and the whole Spire of Long Shadows, would be greatly appreciated.
This module is indeed a meat grinder. If it were the end of the campaign I think my players would have been more understanding, but it isn't, and even I have to admit that I think the Swords of Kyuss are "broken" monsters. My advice would be to simply reduce the number of monsters, or change some of them to less deadly forms of undead that the party could face without dying horribly.
The only exception is the Harbinger, who most definitely should be faced with at least two of Kyuss Knights. He goes down pretty easily if left alone.
The place is infamous in my campaign now, for more TPKs than any other adventure except the original Tomb of Horrors. Rather than spoiling the fun, this added to the excitement of the AP. Most of the players had alternative character builds they wanted to try, or characters of appropriate levels from other campaigns, so trying with new parties wasn't a huge issue. The group that finally managed to get all the way through are now famous.
So, my advice: if your players can possibly live with it, don't spare the party anything. Mow them down with this thing. When they eventually make it through, they'll feel that much more pride in the accomplishment, and will know how dangerous Kyuss and his minions can be!
I also recommend lessening the number of monsters. My group is full of maxed-out PCs, and some players play two PCs, and we were all shocked at how the group was slowly being overwhelmed against the swords, nagas, beetles, etc.
The Harbinger is no pushover (to say nothing of the overworm nearby). With repulsion active, a readied-action maze could remove the first PC to breech the barrier. 30 magic missiles in one standard action? 9 scorching rays? Ouch. Get him in the air, use mirror image, neutralize the spellcasters, and it could be curtains.
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We just finished this segment. Number of deaths; 14. Number of Sundays gaming; 12. Number of original party members from the 9 to walk away from Kuluth Mar; 3. Cost of stopping the Age of Worms; priceless.
Let me start by saying my group started with 6 characters and 3 cohorts. We use only the core rule books, I have heard it said elsewhere on the boards that the accessory handbooks can throw the game balance out the window.
My experience was this. First, once you slap your players down they come back harder and more determined. I couldn't go back once they had overcome the first level and nerf the future encounters.
Second, killing player characters is exhausting. If this is your style then it should be no problem, if it's not then be prepared.
Third, for me this reperesented the place of evil rising, of Kyuss's ascension, of absolute malevolence and by measure needed to be deadly. I had to keep reminding them of that throughout the adventure. I think it made it more beleivable.
Fourth, I warned them before hand that this installment was the hardest and most deadly thing written since Tomb of Horrors, they expected the gauntlet. They tried to prepare for undead and were hit with tainted angels, or worm naga. Everytime they would prepare for one thing the challenges would change.
Fifth, spellcasters are so important. Buff spells, protection spells and dispel magic.
Sixth, as it has been said the harbringer is in need of something to help him out. I put him in a 30x60 room that had trap runes across the floor, but before they could get to him they had to pass over a bridge in an antimagic room. That really did the trick.
Seventh, I would provide a way back and forth from Kuluth Mar to Manzerian's as a regular thing, this really helps them rest, recruit and re-outfit.
Seventh, I wouldn't use the exterior encounters too much, it just drags things out. Unless you need the xp, I would skip them.
Finally this modules brutality taught me a lot about the mechanics of the game. It also taught my players a lot about how to effectively use their characters and work together as team. The only downside to that is that it could have them min/maxing if I'm not careful with future modules.
Thank you all for your help. I will take appropriate actions to make sure my PC's have at least a chance for survival.
I am not too worried about the Eviscerator Beetles or Kyuss Knights, as the party Psion has Psionic Disintegrate at her disposal and with bow continually charged with Undead Bane courtesy of the artificer, Machine Gun Kelly will knock the undead down like nobody's business. I forsee the Worm Nagas and the Worm Angels giving them the most trouble.
I am also considering nerfing the Swords of Kyuss Invocation of the Worm to once a day. That way they will not all just cut loose with all three at once but will save them for healing. I am also considering including a Kyuss Knight or two for backup for the Harbringer encounter. Not that it will do much good, as just about our entire party can fly and will be more than willing to soak up AoO from Kyuss Knights to get to the big bad undead spellcaster.
And of course there is the Worm Naga Feeblemind ability. I will have to see what happens when they run this gauntlet. I will try to only have one or two worms come at them at a time and see what happens.
Thank you all for your help. I will take appropriate actions to make sure my PC's have at least a chance for survival.
Certainly, you know your group better than I do... personally, I let 'em die; then the next group cast speak with dead on the bodies of the last party to find out what else to expect.
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Be careful not to underestimate the Eviscerator Beetles with Nezzarin. I had my first TPK of the path with this deceptively difficult encounter. The Will save to avoid the beetles hypnotic effect is a DC 23 (because there are 2 beetles)! and needs to be made every round by the PCs who are within 120 feet (so everybody!). Nezzarin and the beetles can dish out enough damage to take out a PC every round on the average (especially the poor flatfooted fighter in front). The PC typically attack Nezzarin first as he seems to be the major threat which is a big mistake. The thing that makes this encounter so potentially deadly is that the PCs have no idea what they are up against or how to deal with it. Once they deal with these things once than their survivalbility goes waaaaay up.
The shaft with the worm nagas say they are only encountered in groups of 1-3 of them at a time. The PCs quickly learn to avoid the nagas gaze (blind fighting helps alot here or just staying outside of 30 feet.) My group wiped the nagas out easily and even hunted them down through the tunnels. The thing is the first encounter with the nagas is challenging after that the PCs know what to do and wipe the floor with them.
The Harbinger just can't do enough fast enough against a group completely focused on him. His HPs go fast but still a fun encounter.
I have to agree that buffing is critical for the Spire in it's entirety.
Post and let us know how it goes.
My current group is approaching SoLS (probbaly next session). I was thinking of trimming it down but they have such overbuilt characters (maximized for combat vs undead) that I am not changing a thing.
In fact, they have to fact the occulous demon next session and I was going to increase his difficulty a bit because I think he will be a cakewalk to the party. All along I have been scaling things up for the group, and Spire is the first time I think they will feel even the slightest challenge.
The last time I ran Spire, it was a TPK. The party was very different, smaller and not optimized. They also didn't fare well in the equipment department, so that really was a recipe for disaster for that group.
Be careful not to underestimate the Eviscerator Beetles with Nezzarin. I had my first TPK of the path with this deceptively difficult encounter. The Will save to avoid the beetles hypnotic effect is a DC 23 (because there are 2 beetles)! and needs to be made every round by the PCs who are within 120 feet (so everybody!). Nezzarin and the beetles can dish out enough damage to take out a PC every round on the average (especially the poor flatfooted fighter in front). The PC typically attack Nezzarin first as he seems to be the major threat which is a big mistake. The thing that makes this encounter so potentially deadly is that the PCs have no idea what they are up against or how to deal with it. Once they deal with these things once than their survivalbility goes waaaaay up.
The shaft with the worm nagas say they are only encountered in groups of 1-3 of them at a time. The PCs quickly learn to avoid the nagas gaze (blind fighting helps alot here or just staying outside of 30 feet.) My group wiped the nagas out easily and even hunted them down through the tunnels. The thing is the first encounter with the nagas is challenging after that the PCs know what to do and wipe the floor with them.
The Harbinger just can't do enough fast enough against a group completely focused on him. His HPs go fast but still a fun encounter.
I have to agree that buffing is critical for the Spire in it's entirety.
Post and let us know how it goes.
I am not worried about the Eviscerator Beetles. There are only two of them, they have no SR, lousy touch AC's, crappy Fort saves, and the party Psion has a disintegrator beams with both their names on it. Her will save is through the roof, and she has action points to spare, so between her and the undead-slaying ranger (5 arrows of undead bane with Undead-favored enemy bonus in one round) I don't think the eviscerator beetles will survive more than 2 rounds. I don't have the module in front of me, so I don't remember if the beetle has DR/silver, but that would be the only thing that spares them in the first round. Oops, never mind, he remembered to stock up on silver arrows in Magepoint. One, maybe two rounds tops for the E Beetles.
Well, the encounters on the initial level went pretty much as I thought they would. The party had a little trouble with the e-beetles, but the ranger kept making his will saves and blasted them to pieces with silver arrows from his undead-bane bow. The Kyuss Knight fell to a mounted charge from the paladin after being mostly disintegrated, and the other beetle got blasted to pieces by the party psion. In the Hall of Knowledge, they had a little more trouble with the Swords of Kyuss and the Wormcaller. The Wormcaller got off a single flame strike then got disintegrated by the Artificer from his staff of transmutation. They had a bit more trouble with the Swords of Kyuss and their Worm Invocations, with the cleric almost buying it but blasting the final Sword of Kyuss with a ray-type spell (don't remember what it was, it was from the complete spell compendium) and destroying it.
The most trouble they had was with the Angels of the Worm. No one died, but they all came awful close, especially with the discorporation dive from the Sword Archons. The party wisely took the fight outside the wormswarm room, but that just gave the angels more room to manuver. Everyone was making their saves, which was just as well as after the prismatic spray half the party could have been petrified or in the 9 hells. The closest anyone came to dying was when the party psion got hit with a discorporating dive and made her save by one point. The Ghaele Eladrin was almost impossible to hit, especially after the party was weakened by the Blasphemy spell. He finally fell when the Psion used the death urge power, penetrated SR, failed his will save, and disemboweled himself with his own sword.
More to come.