Chief Technical Officer
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The following scenario is an actual possibility under the terms of the GSL:
November 2, 2008, http://wizards.com/d20
"The GSL has been terminated for all third parties. There is no sell-off period. Destroy all your GSL-licensed product immediately. Remember, the back-conversions clause of the license survives termination and so is still in effect. This means you may not re-issue your GSL-licensed product for (among other systems) Castles & Crusades, D&D 3.x, OSRIC, Pathfinder RPG, RuneQuest, or True20."
I know some people think that's a "tin-foil hat" theory, but it's not far off from what they're doing to the d20 license:
[the d20] license will be terminated as we release the new game system license.We’re going to give publishers a sell-off period where they’ll have until the end of 2008 to move through any stock that they have in their warehouses. Once it’s at distribution or in retail, the product can continue to sell through in its natural progression. We’re not going to ask publishers to recall that product and destroy it. But any excess inventory that they may happen to have in their warehouses at the end of ’08 would need to be destroyed.
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To me it sounds like the GSL was meant to allow individuals to legally write material for 4E, but to make it harder to make money doing so.
-Kinda like Monte Cook taking the 3E Playtest world with him when he left WotC. Probably different circumstances between now and then. Yet Monte did publish Pholtus(sp) after he left WotC. The 4E playtest world is the "default" world now. I wonder why? To keep the 4E designers from leaving and doing another Monte Cook?
18DELTA
[the d20] license will be terminated as we release the new game system license.
Umm... wow, that's harsh. Where did he say that? I'm just curious what the forum was, I have no doubt it was said.
I guess it's a good thing most of your product is OGL and not d20.
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Chief Technical Officer
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[the d20] license will be terminated as we release the new game system license.Umm... wow, that's harsh. Where did he say that? I'm just curious what the forum was, I have no doubt it was said.
I guess it's a good thing most of your product is OGL and not d20.
icv2 in April.
I guess it's a good thing most of your product is OGL and not d20.
The only products we ever published bearing the d20 logo were the official D&D products produced under our license for Dragon and Dungeon magazines, not under the standard d20 license; that contract allows us to continue selling them as long as we have inventory (though we can't reprint them).
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The OGL is such a unique oppurtunity that they can actually DO what they're doing with it they have to take advantage of it now. Even if they hitched their wagon to the 4E bandwagon and it did great, once WotC decides they're ready to do 5E in a about 6 years or so they're gonna force everyone in 4E to go with them or die.
This 'third option' is only going to be available for this edition unless there's some major changes at Hasbro/WotC
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I don't know how software IP works, but my vague understanding is that you are purchasing a license to use the software and not the software itself. That being said, I think the license is tied to the physical product, so you can transfer the license by transferring the physical product. That seems to be what the case you describe is about. Because the manufacturer was attempting to prevent the transfer of the physical product, the First Sale doctrine came into play.
As a digression, the status of software as a licensed product vs. a bought product is actually fairly complicated.
The concept behind a software license (called an End User License Agreement, EULA) is that, in the process of executing a program, the computer makes a duplicate of it, from the hard disk into RAM. The theory goes that this duplication violates the copyright owner's exclusive reproduction rights, so it requires a license.
Things get interesting, of course, when the provisions of these licenses become significantly more restrictive than normal copyright law would grant. The enforcability of such licenses has a mixed history, particularly in cases where the purchaser does not have the ability to view and consent to the contract before buying the software.
The EULA is designed to protect the software programmers right to his intellectual property (the program itself) as opposed to the physical media it comes on. As I understand it you own the physical media it comes on, but not the actual program -- that's licensed for your use under specific circumstances in the End Users License Agreement. So you can melt your disc if you want (it's yours), or sell it, but you can't decompile, distribute or mess with the program itself (unless the license permits you to, as several license types, mostly opensource / free programs do).
*edit* Of course I haven't kept up with the legal end of software for the last several years, so some things may have changed. I think the broad outline still holds though.
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What IS a sure bet, for Paizo at least, is continuing to publish 3rd Edition compatible product under the OGL; we've seen our business there actually increasing over the past few months rather than decreasing, which tells me that sticking with 3rd edition is a pretty wise move.
This is an interesting point. So the sales of 3.5 material are actually increasing rather than decreasing?!?
Some obvious questions:
- Is this because the release of 4e has generated a general surge of interest in D&D?
- Is it because all of the remaining 3e players (who are now officially grognards) have been channeled towards Paizo?
- Is something else entirely going on?
As an aside, I notice that Monte Cook made the following comment in his personal blog recently:
I can tell you that Book of Experimental Might is not only our top seller for this year so far, but it is one of our best sellers ever as far as pdfs go, in regard to its first week or month of sales. Which is particularly gratifying because it flies in the face of conventional wisdom, which tells us that it's a terrible idea to release a 3rd edition related rules supplement just months before 4th edition comes out. And I LOOOOVE to go against conventional wisdom. Particularly in the cynical, overly-conservative game industry.
We seem to live in very interesting times....
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Creative Director
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This is an interesting point. So the sales of 3.5 material are actually increasing rather than decreasing?!?
Some obvious questions:
- Is this because the release of 4e has generated a general surge of interest in D&D?
- Is it because all of the remaining 3e players (who are now officially grognards) have been channeled towards Paizo?
- Is something else entirely going on?
I suspect it's because a LARGE AMOUNT of the established D&D fan base likes the game they've been playing for the past 5, 10, or 30 years. Something doesn't last that long by accident, after all. But the fact of the matter remains that our sales have been more or less going up since we started Pathfinder, really... as have the number of people who are registering at paizo.com.
3rd edition is far from dead, in other words.
Booyah!
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I suspect it's because a LARGE AMOUNT of the established D&D fan base likes the game they've been playing for the past 5, 10, or 30 years. Something doesn't last that long by accident, after all. But the fact of the matter remains that our sales have been more or less going up since we started Pathfinder, really... as have the number of people who are registering at paizo.com.
3rd edition is far from dead, in other words.
I suspect that this is good news for a lot of us :)
The real question now is what can we do to keep the game alive for as long as possible...
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The EULA is designed to protect the software programmers right to his intellectual property (the program itself) as opposed to the physical media it comes on. As I understand it you own the physical media it comes on, but not the actual program -- that's licensed for your use under specific circumstances in the End Users License Agreement. So you can melt your disc if you want (it's yours), or sell it, but you can't decompile, distribute or mess with the program itself (unless the license permits you to, as several license types, mostly opensource / free programs do).
The issue with that argument is that you can do just that with, say, a novel. I can sell my used paperbacks to someone else, and am not considered in violation of the author's copyright for distributing a copyrighted work.
EULA's take advantage of an implementation detail of how a computer works in order to try to bypass a lot of implicit property rights if software were to be considered in the same way as a paperback.
I know some people think that's a "tin-foil hat" theory, but it's not far off from what they're doing to the d20 licenseThe following scenario is an actual possibility under the terms of the GSL:
November 2, 2008, http://wizards.com/d20
"The GSL has been terminated for all third parties. There is no sell-off period. Destroy all your GSL-licensed product immediately. Remember, the back-conversions clause of the license survives termination and so is still in effect. This means you may not re-issue your GSL-licensed product for (among other systems) Castles & Crusades, D&D 3.x, OSRIC, Pathfinder RPG, RuneQuest, or True20."
Yeah. Would I bet on the "November 2, 2008" date I put in that? Of course not, that's a bit of exaggeration for effect. Though it's perfectly permitted under the GSL, I'd bet on normal corporate inertia making it unlikely.
But, let's say the head of WotC is changed by Hasbro in late 2009. What are the odds the same thing would be issued in early 2010, after the new boss has time to evaluate the licensing program? I don't know. Nobody knows, not even the people currently at Hasbro/WotC. And if it happens, pretty much everybody in the third-party world is going to be happy Paizo kept 3.x viable, and pretty much everybody who kept 3.x stuff in print is going to be happy they did.
At the very least, come 5th Edition (in 2016?), the termination clause will almost certainly be used for all GSL product the way the D20 license termination is currently being handled . . . and there's no guarantee there will be any third-party license for 5e. And that would be a rather late time to try to revive 3.x, had it been allowed to die in 2008.
And all that would hold even if 3.x sales were declining for third-party publishers. As it is, I expect that the trend Paizo and Monte Cook have been seeing is going to be general, at least in the short term. Even as the overall 3.x market "pie" is shrinking dramatically with 4e, the exit of Wizards from that system market is probably enough that the other players in that market will see their "slice" grow in real terms, not just proportionate ones.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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As a digression, the status of software as a licensed product vs. a bought product is actually fairly complicated.The concept behind a software license (called an End User License Agreement, EULA) is that, in the process of executing a program, the computer makes a duplicate of it, from the hard disk into RAM. The theory goes that this duplication violates the copyright owner's exclusive reproduction rights, so it requires a license.
Things get interesting, of course, when the provisions of these licenses become significantly more restrictive than normal copyright law would grant. The enforcability of such licenses has a mixed history, particularly in cases where the purchaser does not have the ability to view and consent to the contract before buying the software.
Thanks for the information, that makes a hell of a lot of sense.
The real question now is what can we do to keep the game alive for as long as possible...
Have you pre-ordered the beta yet? What about the hardback?
I figure pre-orders are worth more than a personal commitment to buy at the time it's released because it helps them plan and budget.
I suspect it's because a LARGE AMOUNT of the established D&D fan base likes the game they've been playing for the past 5, 10, or 30 years. Something doesn't last that long by accident, after all. But the fact of the matter remains that our sales have been more or less going up since we started Pathfinder, really... as have the number of people who are registering at paizo.com.
3rd edition is far from dead, in other words.
It's entirely possible that this is could just be the death throws of a dying RPG though :) Paizo got a lot of positive publicity from the PfRPG in the curmudgeon set and it's not entirely clear that this short term boon will become long term success. Curmudgeons don't tend to be a spendy lot... I know I am one.
Although... Paizo has been quite good at separating me from my money lately.
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James Jacobs wrote:
I suspect it's because a LARGE AMOUNT of the established D&D fan base likes the game they've been playing for the past 5, 10, or 30 years. Something doesn't last that long by accident, after all. But the fact of the matter remains that our sales have been more or less going up since we started Pathfinder, really... as have the number of people who are registering at paizo.com.
3rd edition is far from dead, in other words.
It's entirely possible that this is could just be the death throws of a dying RPG though :) Paizo got a lot of positive publicity from the PfRPG in the curmudgeon set and it's not entirely clear that this short term boon will become long term success. Curmudgeons don't tend to be a spendy lot... I know I am one.
Although... Paizo has been quite good at separating me from my money lately.
I suspect that one of the reasons that sales jumped up noticably is because people saw that with 4e coming out the 3e books were going to be out of print and thus not available anymore, so they were purchasing them.
That jump in sales is a good sign for Pathfinder however, since it means that there are a lot of folks planning on sticking with 3e. You wouldn't go buying the books for it in a scramble if you meant to shift editions.
-Tarlane
5th Edition (in 2016?)
Much sooner I guess. 2013 at the latest, maybe even late 2010 or 2011.
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5th Edition (in 2016?)Much sooner I guess. 2013 at the latest, maybe even late 2010 or 2011.
well considering they already have rules corrections out I expect at the minimum a 4.5 by 2010. I know they say they won't do that, but I don't believe them. It will either be that or they will need a 5E.
Course the world will end in 2011 so why worry about anything after that? :)
I think the sales boom also has to do with the fact that right now Pathfinder is 3.5, and the changes that are coming are not so radically differnt as to take too much time to convert. I never had a problem converting from say, Conan or True 20 but others have.
Added to this is the fact that Wizards wants D20 removed form PDF products. Pathfinder might find itself reeping the rewards of being the only 3.X publisher, at lest to the market that likes a system as close to 3.5 as possible.
Two things I am wondering however, and maybe somebody who publishes PDF books can answer.
1. I heard Mongoose is trying to find somebody to put all there D20 stuff for free download on a websit. The excuse is that it would cost too much money to remove the D20 logo from every PDF file for sale, and it wouldn't be worth it base I guess on curret sales. My question is does it really cost that much to do so? And if so what does it mean for other D20 PDF material? Or is it just a F*** U to a costal wizard?
My next question is for everyone.
2. With everything going on the question keeps coming up, I wont support Pathfider adventures because they are not going 4th or the other way around. Is it really hard to run a good advanture in an other system? Example, and I'm not kidding about this one I saw it with my own eyes, and I'm thinking of joining, I know a DM who started Rise of the Rune lords, using the books and eveything, under the Palladium Fantasy system.
It made sense sort of, stats for a goblin are stats, the way you use a goblin is up to you. My point is if Paizo still makes the best advantures, who cares what system you use it for, I'm assuming that the staff at Paizo don't mind as long as you spend your coins getting the advanture. 4th editon players can use most of the monsters in the MM to replace that stats in the book, and the ones Paizo can't use, well they aren't in a Paizo book anyways. Its a pet peev of mine I guess to hear so many complaints about the system in an adv. when it can be ported very easily. IMO
well considering they already have rules corrections out I expect at the minimum a 4.5 by 2010. I know they say they won't do that, but I don't believe them. It will either be that or they will need a 5E.
To be honest I would prefer they released any updates/ bug fixes on their website them re-release an update of the game system every few years under a new point release. Heck something like Rules Compendium released every couple of years would have been great. Instead, new players introduced to the game 5 years after it's release get frustrated by the same stupid bugs that have been in the system since day 1.
Pathfinder in 2009 then Pathfinder 1.1 in 2011 with fixes based on the inevitable problems which ANY system will have. Sure, great. You don't have to buy the updated version but you can, or if someone new is buying it they are buying the most current version.
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Contributor
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Course the world will end in 2011 so why worry about anything after that? :)
I thought the Mayan calendar indicated that the world would end on December 21, 2012. Has someone published a new version of that calendar? I think the Mayans promised they wouldn't, but they may have sold the license to someone else.
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Actually, read clause 11.2, which I am quoting below:
"11.2 Survival. Sections 6, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, and 21 (together with all other provisions that reasonably may be interpreted as surviving termination of this License) will survive the termination of this License."
Ugh!
Nevermind.....
Who in their right mind would sign such a THING?!
Exactly. It's kinda like putting your company on red and spinning the wheel, hoping it doesn't come up black.
-Lisa
When I first read this I thought, its like putting your company in the Red and then hoping to goes to Black!
Course the world will end in 2011 so why worry about anything after that? :)I thought the Mayan calendar indicated that the world would end on December 21, 2012. Has someone published a new version of that calendar? I think the Mayans promised they wouldn't, but they may have sold the license to someone else.
Actually I heard that they were off by a lest three hours.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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The EULA is designed to protect the software programmers right to his intellectual property (the program itself) as opposed to the physical media it comes on. As I understand it you own the physical media it comes on, but not the actual program -- that's licensed for your use under specific circumstances in the End Users License Agreement. So you can melt your disc if you want (it's yours), or sell it, but you can't decompile, distribute or mess with the program itself (unless the license permits you to, as several license types, mostly opensource / free programs do).
*edit* Of course I haven't kept up with the legal end of software for the last several years, so some things may have changed. I think the broad outline still holds though.
Basically, your typical software EULA is a pile of unenforceable crap. That's really most of what you need to know about them :)
well considering they already have rules corrections out I expect at the minimum a 4.5 by 2010. I know they say they won't do that, but I don't believe them. It will either be that or they will need a 5E.
I think that's quite funny. They brag about their playtest, everybody brags about their great new layout, but there's errors nonetheless. And if I have seen correctly, the thread about errors on enworld is everything but small.
Not that they have a spotless record when it comes to proofreading or anything...
Pathfinder in 2009 then Pathfinder 1.1 in 2011 with fixes based on the inevitable problems which ANY system will have.
I suspect that Pathfinder will have a lot less problems than 4e: We will get a year-long beta test. That's thousands of people getting the game a year early to test (since the PDF is free, there's no reason not to get that, and the PDF isn't exactly expensive, either). I think any glaring (or even minor) rules errors and problems will be found out. Add to that Paizo's high standards of quality, and I doubt there will be more than apage or three of errata.
But updating the books sure is a good idea. In addition to errata sheets, they can correct future print runs - and, of course, the PDF versions can be corrected, too, so you can get that one if you ever bought a PDF.
2. With everything going on the question keeps coming up, I wont support Pathfider adventures because they are not going 4th or the other way around. Is it really hard to run a good advanture in an other system?
"Hard"? No. Time-consuming? Of course. And, quite simply, time is a luxury that I don't have. (Who doesn't love a good Khan quote?) I have far more money than time.
Career + life = Nuh-uh to converting.
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2. With everything going on the question keeps coming up, I wont support Pathfider adventures because they are not going 4th or the other way around. Is it really hard to run a good advanture in an other system? Example, and I'm not kidding about this one I saw it with my own eyes, and I'm thinking of joining, I know a DM who started Rise of the Rune lords, using the books and eveything, under the Palladium Fantasy system.It made sense sort of, stats for a goblin are stats, the way you use a goblin is up to you. My point is if Paizo still makes the best advantures, who cares what system you use it for, I'm assuming that the staff at Paizo don't mind as long as you spend your coins getting the advanture. 4th editon players can use most of the monsters in the MM to replace that stats in the book, and the ones Paizo can't use, well they aren't in a Paizo book anyways. Its a pet peev of mine I guess to hear so many complaints about the system in an adv. when it can be ported very...
Back in the 2ed days I used to run GURPS and used older D&D modules (did they make 2ed modules?) The important part was the story. If a goblin was needed I used a GURPS goblin. It was easy to do.
I have taken and run Castle Ravenloft, Desert of Desolation and Temple of Elemental Evil in 3.5 and Iron Heroes and had a blast.
I suspect that Pathfinder will have a lot less problems than 4e: We will get a year-long beta test. That's thousands of people getting the game a year early to test (since the PDF is free, there's no reason not to get that, and the PDF isn't exactly expensive, either). I think any glaring (or even minor) rules errors and problems will be found out. Add to that Paizo's high standards of quality, and I doubt there will be more than apage or three of errata.
Well... we'll see, I sure hope so and having such a huge playtest will certainly help. A few changes on a half dozen pages would not justify the expense of a new version but a significant amount of errata would justify it. In the case of D&D publishing a complete PHB would be worth it.
I liked what Monte Cook did with Arcana Unearthed and Arcana Unleashed not only did the second book contain bug fixes but it added some expansion material so existing players/ DMs would get some added value from the set.
Coming from someone who runs a relatively large game store:
Will they make less money? Absolutely
It might not matter. It all depends on what their goals are.
And if they go with the GSL and Hasbro dumps on them, they'll make what? Less than nothing? I think their revenue stream is more secure with OGL / 3.5 / Pathfinder. I think the issues for Paizo are control of their IP, their vision and their future as a company. Makes sense to me.