The people that created 4e aren’t enemies to roleplaying and WOTC employees are not greedy jerks, they’re mostly gamers like you and I. They probably figured working there would be a dream job; I know I would. These are our peers; venerable old farts and overzealous young guns included. They want what we want; a game to be proud of in a hobby we love.
Hasbro, on the other hand, has a bottom line. Large corporations are an entirely different beast and cannot be expected to embrace something they don’t understand. I’ve seen an entire design team fired for choosing the wrong color for an ad campaign, ludicrous as that sounds (it was orange, by the way). Legal teams and focus groups are the order of business and the only thing they really understand is profit. How much could they really care about Dungeons and Dragons when they have G.I. Joe, Star Wars, Milton Bradley, Disney, and Barrel of Monkeys?
I’m all for flinging poop; let’s just make sure we pick the right intended targets.
Barrel of Monkeys!
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I'm curious if my post in the GSL thread is what kicked this off, or it was caused by some of the undertone in the various threads.
Still - here here!
Honestly, I feel bad for the designers, as I said in the above mentioned thread. They set out to design a game they believed would be fun, approachable, and faithful to D&D. Now, they may not have the same take on the game that you do, but they clearly love the game.
Unfortunately, they have to deal with Marketing, Legal and Hasbro.
Still - even if you hate the GSL, or think the changes are dumb, recognize that these people (much like the fine folks at Paizo) love this game, want it to succeed, and probably gave up huge chunks of their personal lives to get it done.
They just have to answer to bosses who aren't quite as awsome. Which I suspect a lot of us are quite familiar with.
I'm curious if my post in the GSL thread is what kicked this off, or it was caused by some of the undertone in the various threads.
Honestly, it's just the ongoing edition war that's had people swiping at perceived slights for months now that got to me. We were likely typing the same sentiment at the same time. Ironically, the release of the GSL seems to have united people in a way no mediation really could.
There's a lot of chaotic good in the room, I can feel it.
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I’ve seen an entire design team fired for choosing the wrong color for an ad campaign, ludicrous as that sounds (it was orange, by the way).
WTF!!! What the hell is wrong with Orange?!? I like Orange! Orange is one of the two traditional colors of Halloween - the greatest holiday of them all. Damn thos corporate-types to hell. DAMN THEM I say!
How much could they really care about Dungeons and Dragons when they have G.I. Joe, Star Wars, Milton Bradley, Disney, and Barrel of Monkeys?
In truth, I believe Hasbro cares about Dungeons & Dragons because it's still a powerful brand. What Hasbro doesn't accept is that companies out there are making millions of dollars with WOW and other D&D-derivatives while D&D seems only to decline with time.
Using a metaphor, maybe Hasbro feels that it bought a chicken with golden eggs, but they feel they are roasting the chicken instead of making it put the eggs.
WTF!!! What the hell is wrong with Orange?!? I like Orange! Orange is one of the two traditional colors of Halloween - the greatest holiday of them all. Damn thos corporate-types to hell. DAMN THEM I say!
I've seen it before; some people have irrational hatred of yellow, pastels and brown too.
I have an irrational hatred of yellow. No reason or logic, I simply hate the color.
Oh and thanks for granting permission to fling poo. Now if we could just work on your proviso.
Oh and thanks for granting permission to fling poo. Now if we could just work on your proviso.
I honestly don't think Doombunny was so much granting us permission to fling poo (we're going to do that anyway whether he likes it or not), but rather encouraging us to fling it at the people who really deserve the poo flung at them.
You might consider actually reading his actual intentions before making assumptions about his sanctimonious superiority complex.
Well, I hadn't intended that Barrel of Monkeys be the target...I just felt like exclaiming Barrel of Monkeys. I was drowsy.
Well, I hadn't intended that Barrel of Monkeys be the target...I just felt like exclaiming Barrel of Monkeys. I was drowsy.
Truly, if we're going to get into some poo flingin, we certainly don't want to take on A Barrel of Monkeys. I mean, that's like challengin Hercules to an arm-wrestlin contest, or betting Beowulf you can beat Grendel up faster.
It just ain't smart.
What?! You honestly expect me to thoroughly read someone else’s post before making my own to satisfy my sanctimonious superiority complex?
Psha!
What?! You honestly expect me to thoroughly read someone else’s post before making my own to satisfy my sanctimonious superiority complex?
Psha!
Touche, monsieur Fool. Touche. ;)
Truly, if we're going to get into some poo flingin, we certainly don't want to take on A Barrel of Monkeys. I mean, that's like challengin Hercules to an arm-wrestlin contest, or betting Beowulf you can beat Grendel up faster.
It just ain't smart.
You've uncovered a dark day from my childhood. San Diego Zoo. Monkey House.
Back and to the left.
EDIT: And to be fair, I have an inferiority complex about my superiority complex.
You've uncovered a dark day from my childhood. San Diego Zoo. Monkey House.
Back and to the left.
I'm just saying I don't think that's mud.
Should someone make a joke about threadcrapping?
Thanks for this thread btw ... I think you're hitting on what's really been bugging me. I've been gaming for many years now, and I have seen many changes in the hobby. The most disturbing trends have been the most recent however: the capitalization of the hobby. Now, I know all game industries have always had profit margins driving them, but previous iterations of game companies saw that as an equal or secondary goal while care and belief in the hobby and it pratitioners was the primary goal. Please the audience, and they will find a way to make your profit margin for you.
While I do believe most designers still have a "for the love of the game" mentality going into whichever edition they are going into, I think the corporate masses are much more short-sighted ... possibly (probably) because they have no understanding of how this audience is different than a bunch of people playing monopoly (and I doubt Hasbro could give a fetid dingo's kidney's worth of care for that audience). This is nothing new or surprising. We live in a "speculate rather than report the news", "what a person says is more relevant than what they actually believe or do" kind of world. It sucks, but it's a reality.
Unfortunately for us old fogey types, the target market is a bit more blunted than sharp when it comes to knowing when they might be getting shafted. I teach 18 yo college freshmen, so I see them everyday. They are frequently a group conditioned to never question what they are given and frequently told their opinions don't matter ... and they believe it. I had a good number of them believe Dr Manhattan (from Watchmen) was a "good" person solely based on the fact that he works for the U.S. government (Nixon's government, no less). So I'm betting the industry is striking while the metal is hot. Unfortunately, Hasbro is so clueless about this audience that they don't realize they can't win against WoW ... short- or long-term.
Didn't mean to really wane poetic there, but I guess I'm just at that "poor kids these days" stage of things. <sigh> I guess it'll pass.
So we should throw poo at teenagers?
So we should throw poo at teenagers?
Nah; they probably wouldn't notice ....
unless you got it on their cell phones (which I predict will become surgically implanted in the next 5 years).
