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Latest from the 4th Edition Monster Manual
For those with no care to link:
Well, the day is at hand. We're about to pull back the curtain on what might be the greatest stride forward in swarm design known to mankind. But first, how did we end up in this glorious state?
Well, swarms are cool, but researching how we think swarms might actually work into D&D was not so cool. For this, we locked a designer in a sealed box with 100,000 ants. We threw rocks at hornets' nests, drop kicked beehives, and stuck our hands into crates of scorpions. From these experiences, we drew the following conclusions:
Oh my god, insects can sting.
No, seriously. That HURTS.
We decided that any of those feats were more fun than the 3E swarm rules.
The 3E swarm rules fell into the trap of simply trying to model reality as we know it, from movies, comics, or the real world. That might be a great move if you want to build a simulator, but it isn't so hot for a game. Instead, we wanted rules that were evocative. You should feel like you're fighting a swarm, but that feeling should be less like boredom and more like "GET THESE THINGS OFF OF ME."
So, a few highlights about 4E swarms:
Swarms are hard to hurt. Hacking at a pile of bugs with a sword is inefficient, but it's also scary to face a monster that's hard to hurt. The swarm marches on in a relentless wave. We liked that feel, and we could easily set the swarm's hit points to balance the effect.
They're hard to push around, again to make them feel relentless.
They can go almost anywhere. Closing a door doesn't do much to slow down a swarm. The bugs simply crawl under it, or through the cracks in the door's frame.
Originally, a single swarm "monster" was four Medium size groups of creatures. They worked similarly to minions, but the effect on the table was disappointing. Swarms didn't feel like tides of hungry critters, more like disposable bags of hit points. We tried toughening them, but that worked against the 4-for-1 discount they offered. In the end, we dropped the split and worked to simplify and streamline our existing rules.
So, now the swarm piece of the 4E puzzle has fallen into place. 4th Edition is right around the corner, and with it endless waves of hungry bugs, drakes, and other nasties.
--Mike Mearls
From the Monster Manual Glossary:
Swarm: A swarm is considered a single monster even though it is composed of several Tiny creatures. Most single swarms are Medium, but some can be larger.
A swarm takes half damage from melee and ranged attacks. It is vulnerable to close and area attacks, as indicated in the monster’s stat block.
A swarm is immune to forced movement (pull, push, and slide) effects from melee and ranged attacks. Close or area attacks that impose forced movement affect the swarm normally.
A swarm can enter or move through an enemy’s space; this movement does not provoke opportunity attacks. An enemy can enter a space occupied by a swarm, but the space occupied by the swarm is considered difficult terrain, and doing so provokes an opportunity attack.
A swarm can squeeze through any opening large enough to accommodate even one of its constituent creatures. For example, a swarm of bats can squeeze through any opening large enough for one of the bats to squeeze through. See the Player’s Handbook for squeezing rules.
Needlefang Drake Swarm
Savage marauders the size of cats, needlefang drakes swarm over their victims, pull them to ground, and strip them to the bone in seconds.
Needlefang Drake SwarmLevel 2 SoldierMedium natural beast (reptile, swarm)XP 125Initiative +7Senses Perception +7
Swarm Attack aura 1; the needlefang drake swarm makes a basic attack as a free action against each enemy that begins its turn in the aura.
HP 38; Bloodied 19
AC 18; Fortitude 15, Reflex 17, Will 14
Immune fear; Resist half damage from melee and ranged attacks;
Vulnerable 5 against close and area attacks.
Speed 7
Swarm of Teeth (standard; at-will)+8 vs. AC; 1d10 + 4 damage, or 2d10 + 4 damage against a prone target.Pull Down (minor; at-will)+7 vs. Fortitude; the target is knocked prone.Alignment UnalignedLanguages —Str 15 (+3) Dex 18 (+5) Wis 12 (+2) Con 14 (+3) Int 2 (-3) Cha 10 (+1)
Needlefang Drake Tactics
Incited by hunger, needlefang drakes fearlessly rush toward their prey, knock it prone (using pull down), and use their swarm of teeth to feast upon it.
Stirge Swarm
Stirges are bloodsucking, bat-like horrors that lurk in caves and ruins. Lone stirges are little more than pests and nuisances—but they are rarely encountered alone. Stirges tend to gather in large flocks that can exsanguinate an adult human in a matter of minutes.
Stirge SwarmLevel 12 BruteMedium natural beast (swarm)XP 700Initiative +9Senses Perception +6; darkvision
Swarm Attack aura 1; the stirge swarm makes a basic attack as a free action against each enemy that begins its turn in the aura.
HP 141; Bloodied 70
AC 24; Fortitude 21, Reflex 24, Will 23
Resist half damage from melee and ranged attacks;
Vulnerable 10 against close and area attacks
Speed 2, fly 6 (hover)
Bloodsucking Swarm (standard; at-will)+15 vs. AC; 2d6 + 4 damage, and ongoing 5 damage (save ends).Alignment UnalignedLanguages —Skills Stealth +14 Str 8 (+5) Dex 16 (+9) Wis 10 (+6) Con 11 (+6) Int 1 (+1) Cha 4 (+3)
Stirge Swarm Tactics
Stirge swarms gave rise to the old dwarven saying: “I don’t have to outrun the stirges, I only have to outrun you.” A hungry swarm will chase its prey for miles, if need be.
I like that they are difficult terrain, and I like that you can damage them even if you dont have area effect attacks. Sure, it sucks, but it would make the second Age of Worms encounter more doable.
IMO the important thing about swarms as well as their invulnerability to normal attacks was that they didn't have to roll to hit. You just took damage if in the area.
this appears to be gone
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This close to 4E's release, and they are still attacking 3.5 to make 4E look better. Enough already! As soon as you started working on 4E, you made vow to despise 3.5 and rail against it every chance you got. We get it. You now hate 3.5 even though it made your paychecks possible since 2000. Seriously, you'd think by know that they'd have a better way to showcase 4E than saying. "You know this part about 3.5 was as much fun as sticking ou hand in a crate of scorpions." Fighting swarms in 3.5 was supposed to be difficult. They were supposed to be scary because in real life they are scary and difficult to deal with. What is so horrible about having at least a little bit of reality in an RPG?
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Swarms could be a pain to deal with in 3.5, but if the party didn't have the resources to deal with it, it's up to the DM to replace the swarm with something of the same CR, or let them get away by the skin of their teeth. It would take all of a few minutes. How difficult would it be to replace the swarm in the Whispering Cairn with an angry bugbear if the party didn't have alchemist's fire or burning hands? Not difficult at all. One of my most memorable 3.0 D&D encounters involved a swarm. It was scary, but it was also fun.
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This close to 4E's release, and they are still attacking 3.5 to make 4E look better. Enough already! As soon as you started working on 4E, you made vow to despise 3.5 and rail against it every chance you got. We get it. You now hate 3.5 even though it made your paychecks possible since 2000. Seriously, you'd think by know that they'd have a better way to showcase 4E than saying. "You know this part about 3.5 was as much fun as sticking ou hand in a crate of scorpions." Fighting swarms in 3.5 was supposed to be difficult. They were supposed to be scary because in real life they are scary and difficult to deal with. What is so horrible about having at least a little bit of reality in an RPG?It seems that you were taking this more seriously than I was. It sounds like an (albeit bad) attempt at a joke. He's just trying to say that swarms in 3.5 were kind of annoying to deal with as a player and as a DM. He's right. That's the thing that people aren't grasping ... the things they're saying about 3.5 are typically SPOT ON and they know this because they have a job that lets them play D&D for a living.
The swarm they detailed sounds scary. Tiny dragonmonsters that swarm you, pull you down, and eat you alive? That's something that's going to make players take notice.
You can tell that 4th edition was largely inspired by high-grossing action movies. I'm okay with that.
Uhm, no, he says 3e was inspired by movies and that was wrong. Swarms in 3e are more dangerous than 4e swarms. Damage is higher, they don't need to roll an attack, can't be moved (like 4e) and (like 4e) they only suffer half damage from weapons. They don't seem that different to me. Certainly not enough to justify the 3e swarms suck joke. Especially when you consider that quite a few people here have said swarms were nearly a TPK already.
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This close to 4E's release, and they are still attacking 3.5 to make 4E look better. Enough already! As soon as you started working on 4E, you made vow to despise 3.5 and rail against it every chance you got. We get it. You now hate 3.5 even though it made your paychecks possible since 2000. Seriously, you'd think by know that they'd have a better way to showcase 4E than saying. "You know this part about 3.5 was as much fun as sticking ou hand in a crate of scorpions." Fighting swarms in 3.5 was supposed to be difficult. They were supposed to be scary because in real life they are scary and difficult to deal with. What is so horrible about having at least a little bit of reality in an RPG?It seems that you were taking this more seriously than I was. It sounds like an (albeit bad) attempt at a joke. He's just trying to say that swarms in 3.5 were kind of annoying to deal with as a player and as a DM. He's right. That's the thing that people aren't grasping ... the things they're saying about 3.5 are typically SPOT ON and they know this because they have a job that lets them play D&D for a living.
The swarm they detailed sounds scary. Tiny dragonmonsters that swarm you, pull you down, and eat you alive? That's something that's going to make players take notice.
You can tell that 4th edition was largely inspired by high-grossing action movies. I'm okay with that.
I guess I don't find the joke (and the thinly veiled critique of 3.5) to be "spot on." I didn't think swarms were confusing (as a DM) or hard to run. No more so than the proposed swarms they offer in the article. Terrifying, yes; deadly, perhaps too much so. Deadly (a la Age of Worms) can be un-fun.
Moreover, he describes the design goal as "You should feel like you're fighting a swarm, but that feeling should be less like boredom and more like 'GET THESE THINGS OFF OF ME.'" I dunno, but players pretty much felt like that. Bored, not so much.
The only real changes I see are that you can hurt swarms with standard damage, you can't AoO them, they can AoO you, they don't auto-hit. They added an admittedly nifty ability to the Drake swarm, but each swarm has always had specific flavor - the underlying "swarm" trait is what doesn't seem to have changed beyond being nerfed. Not a bad idea at all, but hardly groundshaking changes worthy of truly differentiating it from the previously "boring" edition. And not worthy of the back-handed joke.
Director of Narrative
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Uhm, no, he says 3e was inspired by movies and that was wrong. Swarms in 3e are more dangerous than 4e swarms. Damage is higher, they don't need to roll an attack, can't be moved (like 4e) and (like 4e) they only suffer half damage from weapons. They don't seem that different to me. Certainly not enough to justify the 3e swarms suck joke. Especially when you consider that quite a few people here have said swarms were nearly a TPK already.
I feel you. I didn't notice a huge difference except now weapons can damage them. I'm probably missing something.
I feel you. I didn't notice a huge difference except now weapons can damage them. I'm probably missing something.
Likewise -- note that some swarms could be damaged by weapons before, so that part's not even new. Now they need to roll to hit and there's no distraction save you need to make. That's a big difference somehow?
And since when was fighting 3.5E swarms boring? (Unless "boring" is some hip new slang for "terrifyingly difficult".)
And since when was fighting 3.5E swarms boring? (Unless "boring" is some hip new slang for "terrifyingly difficult".)
I'm enthusiastic about 4th edition, and even I felt that Mearls was laying the "OMG, 3E SUCKS, AMIRITE?" on a little thick.
But, after 4-5 years playing 3.5, I can see where he's coming from. Most swarms in 3.5 were immune to weapon damage. In fact, the Monster Manual is wrong when it says that the CR 2 Bat Swarm takes half damage from slashing and piercing damage, because clearly by the glossary definition, even that swarm and the CR 1 spider swarm are entirely immune to weapons. So right from the start, you're dealing with a monster immune to the vast majority of your attacks.
I guess I'm just not sure anymore where the line is between "terrifyingly difficult" and "not really fun" is. I mean, if the DM throws an orc at the party, but then refuses to write down any damage when you hit it, and further doesn't roll any dice, just announces that the orc hit, is that fun?
My players' groans when the fought the last few swarms told me all I needed to know. I think 3e swarms needed a revision, and I'm glad to see they're getting one.
My players' groans when the fought the last few swarms told me all I needed to know. I think 3e swarms needed a revision, and I'm glad to see they're getting one.
Don't get me wrong -- I hate fighting swarms as a player, and I'm glad they're getting nerfed a bit. But to say that 3.5E swarms are "boring" and 4E swarms are going to be really nasty...I think Bizarro Mike Mearls wrote those comments when the real Mike Mearls wasn't looking.
:)
P.S. I guess I think it's a bit weird that you'll be able to kill a cloud of locusts by shooting arrows at it, but verisimilitude was never D&D's strong point.
I like it (I know, I hear the shock and surprise out there!)
The intro is obviously over the top hyperbole and very tongue-in-cheek. I guess if you're "WotC says I'm stupid for playing 3E" sense has been rubbed raw it probably comes across in poor taste, but I thought it was funny.
As for the actual meat of the issue, it seems that a few things were changed. First, swarms don't have as many large blanket immunities as they pack in 3E. In some ways that does make them weaker, but having just fought the swarm encounter of AoW recently, I can tell you it IS boring to fight monsters you can't do anything to.
In 3E a swarm has to enter your square to hurt you. When your turn comes up you 5' step out and try to attack it with your torch, or just move away. On it's turn it moves back into your square and hurts you again. Meanwhile if you are lucky, your group has some area attacks to hurt it. If not, you pretty much have to run for it, 'cause its immune to pretty much everything else.
In 4E a swarm rolls up to you and may (or may not) enter your square. When your turn comes around, it attacks you again as its constituent members swarm over you and all the surrounding squares. You can hurt it (which I agree, is absolutely a nod towards gamism, which sits fine with me) no matter what, although it is resistant to non-area attacks.
I think some of the best things with these changes are that A) swarms can really mess with multiple opponents; getting a free attack into all adjacent squares is pretty sweet, and when people start running away whacking them again with OAs is even better, B) multiple swarms work together now, and being flanked by two or more is going to be insanely nasty ... every round you'll be eating several free attacks that will quickly wear you down and C) to really hurt the swarm you have to wade into the area it is throwing free attacks into.
When we fought the swarm in AoW the Monk in our party attacked it with a torch as it tried to eat my character. I'd step out of the swarm's area, the Monk would attack it with the torch, and then it'd move back over me. I don't think the Monk was really in danger from it at all ... in 4E that Monk would be soaking attacks from the swarm the entire time. Very cool, IMO.
Cheers! :)
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Likewise -- note that some swarms could be damaged by weapons before, so that part's not even new. Now they need to roll to hit and there's no distraction save you need to make. That's a big difference somehow?
Well, the swarms presented have to make attack rolls, but they also get to attack 9 squares instead of 4. Plus OAs. Plus their standard power attack. I don't much care for the bleed damage effect on the Stirges, but the pulldown attack on the drakes is pretty scary.
Do we know yet whether standing up is a Move or a Minor? If standing is Minor, then you could stand, Move to shift 1, then Standard to shift another and be clear. If standing is a Move, then you'll have to action point or provoke OA to get away. In either case, it did a pretty good job of locking you down for a turn.