...I really like saving throws. And I can't bear to let them go. My question thus to all the people who are liking the sounds of 4e: how would you suggest combining the attack vs. [Save] with rolling a save (not using the 4e system exactly as it is; I just posted it here 'cause it seemed like the best place for it)?
4th Edition doesnt do away with the saving throw: it just has someone else roll it instead. Like a fighter getting to make an attack roll to strike an orc, the wizard gets to make an attack roll against your Reflex to see if you take half damage from his spell.
Someone on Enworld said something to the effect that its best to think of saving throws as the "duration" of an effect. Instead of having static durations where paralysis lasts more than enough to keep someone out of the fight the entire time, you get to roll each round to see if you shake off the effects.
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Someone on Enworld said something to the effect that its best to think of saving throws as the "duration" of an effect. Instead of having static durations where paralysis lasts more than enough to keep someone out of the fight the entire time, you get to roll each round to see if you shake off the effects.
Akin to the 3.5 Hold person spells.
If someone really wants to keep saves there is a simple solution that will probably occur to many people naturally. The save defences are probably going to be 10 + modifiers, like AC is now. Replace the 10 with a d20 roll. Keep the 10 for NPC's and monsters.
It adds an extra roll. Maybe make it something that characters can use an action point to do.
There is a variant rule for AC in third that did this.
Someone on Enworld said something to the effect that its best to think of saving throws as the "duration" of an effect. Instead of having static durations where paralysis lasts more than enough to keep someone out of the fight the entire time, you get to roll each round to see if you shake off the effects.Akin to the 3.5 Hold person spells.
Yeah. I look at it like a very easy duration tracking mechanism for various effects: easier to do on the fly if a character has ongoing acid damage, paralysis, or charmed than by having to individually track stuff round-by-round.
If someone really wants to keep saves there is a simple solution that will probably occur to many people naturally. The save defences are probably going to be 10 + modifiers, like AC is now. Replace the 10 with a d20 roll. Keep the 10 for NPC's and monsters.
It adds an extra roll. Maybe make it something that characters can use an action point to do.
There is a variant rule for AC in third that did this.
The default setup in 4E (all "saves" are static, with the caster "rolling" the DC) is actually one of the variants available in 3E as well (Attacker Always Rolls). It would be easy to reverse it around in any way you want.
Prefer static spell DCs with a rolled save ala 3E? Add 10 to attack bonus of the spell and you have its static DC. Subtract 10 and add a d20 to the defense and you have a saving throw. It's easy ... and if you want you can have both roll a d20 for both the attack and the defense, although in that case you're going to get much more random results.
Cheers! :)
Zigackly!
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Correct me if I'm wrong:
Under the old saving throw system, you throw a fireball into a pile of "minions." Let's say DC 14 v Ref +4 for simplicity. Half your minions save and live, the other half fail and die.
Under the new system, you throw the fireball, and make a single attack roll against all their reflexes (likely identical). Now it's a 50% chance that all live or all die.
Or does 4E have separate attack rolls against each creature in the AOE?
Correct me if I'm wrong:
Under the old saving throw system, you throw a fireball into a pile of "minions." Let's say DC 14 v Ref +4 for simplicity. Half your minions save and live, the other half fail and die.
Under the new system, you throw the fireball, and make a single attack roll against all their reflexes (likely identical). Now it's a 50% chance that all live or all die.
Or does 4E have separate attack rolls against each creature in the AOE?
You roll for each target within your area. This also prevents you from critting each one on your fireball (a Dragon's breath weapon would probably be REALLY nasty if it could crit the whole party on a lucky roll ...)
Cheers! :)
Yeah, you roll damage once, and then roll the attack for each monster. This has a benefit of making it easier to track the damage on each monster, since its global.
Remember: if you miss a minion it takes no damage (even if the power says Miss: half damage).
You roll for each target within your area. This also prevents you from critting each one on your fireball (a Dragon's breath weapon would probably be REALLY nasty if it could crit the whole party on a lucky roll ...)Cheers! :)
I think David hits on the major difference between the two systems. You are still just as likely to be hit by the spell, but there is now a 5% chance that the fireball you get hit with can crit you.
I think David hits on the major difference between the two systems. You are still just as likely to be hit by the spell, but there is now a 5% chance that the fireball you get hit with can crit you.
Very true Teiran. Although, I will note that in 3E, a 1 on a save is a critical failure, and places one of your items in danger. Perhaps not as bad as a crit (or, depending on the item, perhaps much worse).
Cheers! :)
Director of Brand Strategy
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You roll for each target within your area. This also prevents you from critting each one on your fireball (a Dragon's breath weapon would probably be REALLY nasty if it could crit the whole party on a lucky roll ...)
My experience thus far has proven quite the opposite. It just grants max damage, which for a dragon's breath weapon, isn't that big of a deal. Even for a huge dragon against a 2nd level character.
And for the record, the attacking defenses idea is cool and streamlined, and I actually really like the idea of applying either your Str or Con to Fort, Int or Dex to Ref, and Wis or Cha to Wil, but the 50/50 save mechanic is unexciting and tedious, especially if you have multiple effects on you. I much prefer rolling a single save and then tracking rounds.
Roll for each one? Meh. I would totally just rule it as a single attack roll. That would make it go much, much faster (though either way would be faster than the current system).
When I DM, I roll a bunch d20s and damage dice at the same time, then read them off left to right from how they land.
Although this way tends to roll natural 1 attack dice for the Max damage dice.
Or it's my own rotten luck.
Roll for each one? Meh. I would totally just rule it as a single attack roll. That would make it go much, much faster (though either way would be faster than the current system).
That's perfectly doable but just make sure you consider the implications before hand. What you describe would be similar to having a group of mooks roll just one saving throw against the wizard's fireball in 3E. I'm sure many groups do play this way to speed things up, but it does alter the game's assumed probabilities.
Cheers! :)
My experience thus far has proven quite the opposite. It just grants max damage, which for a dragon's breath weapon, isn't that big of a deal. Even for a huge dragon against a 2nd level character.
And for the record, the attacking defenses idea is cool and streamlined, and I actually really like the idea of applying either your Str or Con to Fort, Int or Dex to Ref, and Wis or Cha to Wil, but the 50/50 save mechanic is unexciting and tedious, especially if you have multiple effects on you. I much prefer rolling a single save and then tracking rounds.
The only stats I have available for a 4E dragon is for a large one, however it's breath weapon does 1d12+3 with an ongoing 5 damage and -4 AC. Critting with that is 15, with another 5 tacked on unless someone grants the character a free saving throw. 20 points is a lot, especially at lower levels, and having the entire party take that 20 ...
Well that seems like it would be a fast route to a TPK, but who knows. Maybe the party can run fast! ;)
Cheers! :)
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Correct me if I'm wrong:
Under the old saving throw system, you throw a fireball into a pile of "minions." Let's say DC 14 v Ref +4 for simplicity. Half your minions save and live, the other half fail and die.
Under the new system, you throw the fireball, and make a single attack roll against all their reflexes (likely identical). Now it's a 50% chance that all live or all die.
Or does 4E have separate attack rolls against each creature in the AOE?
Also remember - many powers in 4e still do damage even when they miss.
Actually, I and my group (currently in Savage Tide) don't like saving throws at all anymore, or spell levels either. This may be because my 3.5 group has pumped up their saves so high that they only fail 25% or less of the time, and they are only 15th level. I don't even bother using most of the monster spells or spell-like abilities anymore as they are practically useless and have super low DC's. And before you cry "twink" the PC's in my group are actually 1 level below the recommended level for each adventure, have only the treasure from the adventures so far, and are not using any non-WotC books or products.
I'm glad to see them go in 4e.