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More from the 4th Ed. Monster Manual
For those with care to link:
In the 4th Edition of D&D, we wanted to capture the concept of those creatures, but provide a rules framework that let them be a relevant part of the encounter. To this end, we created the minion role as a rules construct to allow a DM to more easily include such monster hordes.
Goals of the minion:
Drop in one hit: the minion essentially does his job if it can keep a PC occupied for a turn. Depending on its level and role, a typical monster might take four to six basic attacks to knock out. To provide the same amount of challenge, a group of four to six minions should take about the same number of actions. For a while, we considered giving minions some small amount of hit points, a small enough number that they would drop in one hit. But then we ran into a few situations where the minion would take only a few points of damage, forcing the DM to track minion hit points anyway. Eventually, we realized that the best way to make sure they go down in one hit is by giving them a single hit point. (You could think of it as if you are always doing enough damage to kill it.)
Have sufficient defenses: A PC should hit a minion at about the same rate as that PC would hit a typical monster of the same level. If the PC only misses on a natural 1, then that part of the fight becomes trivial. Thus, the minion’s defenses are set using the same scale as other monsters of its level. Similarly, while minions are meant to be easily dispatched, we didn’t want it to be too easy, so we decided that minions shouldn’t die when missed by an attack roll, even if that attack would normally deal damage on a hit. Of course, they might still die if they take damage from other sources, like walking through a wall of fire or getting hit by a Cleave from a fighter.
Have a meaningful attack: Minions shouldn’t automatically fail at their attacks, or always be hoping for a natural 20. Their attack bonus should be similar to monsters of their level, though their damage is a fraction of other monsters. One minion attacking a PC is more of a nuisance, but a group of them can be as dangerous as any monster. The damage for minions is always flat instead of rolled, which again helps speed up play as the DM only needs to roll one die for each minion.
Using Minions
A cool aspect of the minion idea is the way that you can scale your encounters as PCs progress through the Heroic, Paragon, and Epic tiers, while still using similar creature types throughout the campaign. An 8th level encounter might involve battling ogres, but later in that campaign you might have an earth titan that has enslaved an ogre tribe, and thus create a 16th level encounter with an elite earth titan and a bunch of ogre bludgeoneer minions. You can create fun Paragon-level encounters using abyssal ghouls (16th level skirmishers with 156 hp), then a few levels later stock your Epic-level encounter with abyssal ghoul myrmidons (23rd level minions).
When you use minions, you should use those of a level appropriate to the encounter you’re building. The concept of minions is to provide fun filler for encounters, not to provide a way for a 1st level character to gain 1,000+ XP for defeating a 23rd-level abyssal ghoul minion by rolling a natural 20. Minions are a rules abstraction, and one of the many tools a DM has to build exciting encounters.
Also keep your party makeup in mind when using minions, as well. PCs with attacks that target more than one enemy or that target an area will love fights against minions, and it provides a nice contrast with, say, a solo monster fight where those abilities are less useful.
--Stephen Schubert
From the Monster Manual Glossary:
Minion: Minions are designed to serve as shock troops and cannon fodder for other monsters (standard, elite, or solo). Four minions are considered to be about the same as a standard monster of their level. Minions are designed to help fill out an encounter, but they go down quickly.
A minion is destroyed when it takes any amount of damage. Damage from an attack or from a source that doesn’t require an attack roll (such as the paladin’s divine challenge or the fighter’s cleave) also destroys a minion. However, if a minion is missed by an attack that normally deals damage on a miss, it takes no damage.
LEGION DEVIL
THE ARMIES OF THE NINE HELLS are largely made up of legion
devils—cruel, pitiless warriors that gather in countless numbers
from the scorched plains of Avernus to the deepest
chasms of Nessus. Brutally disciplined, legion devils haven’t
the slightest regard for their own existence and live to crush
their masters’ foes beneath their iron-shod heels.
Legion Devil Grunt Level 6 Minion
Medium immortal humanoid (devil) XP 63
Initiative +4 Senses Perception +4; darkvision
HP 1; a missed attack never damages a minion.
AC 22; Fortitude 18, Refl ex 17, Will 17; see also squad defense
Resist 5 fi re
Speed 6, teleport 3
m Longsword (standard; at-will) ✦ Weapon
+11 vs. AC; 5 damage.
Squad Defense
The legion devil grunt gains a +2 bonus to its defenses when
adjacent to at least one other legion devil.
Alignment Evil Languages Supernal
Str 14 (+5) Dex 12 (+4) Wis 12 (+4)
Con 14 (+5) Int 10 (+3) Cha 12 (+4)
Equipment plate armor, heavy shield, longsword
Legion Devil Hellguard Level 11 Minion
Medium immortal humanoid (devil) XP 150
Initiative +6 Senses Perception +6; darkvision
HP 1; a missed attack never damages a minion.
AC 27; Fortitude 23, Refl ex 22, Will 22; see also squad defense
Resist 10 fi re
Speed 6, teleport 3
mLongsword (standard; at-will) ✦ Weapon
+16 vs. AC; 6 damage.
Squad Defense
The legion devil hellguard gains a +2 bonus to its defenses when
adjacent to at least one other legion devil.
Alignment Evil Languages Supernal
Str 14 (+7) Dex 12 (+6) Wis 12 (+6)
Con 14 (+7) Int 10 (+5) Cha 12 (+6)
Equipment plate armor, heavy shield, longsword
Legion Devil Veteran Level 16 Minion
Medium immortal humanoid (devil) XP 350
Initiative +9 Senses Perception +9; darkvision
HP 1; a missed attack never damages a minion.
AC 32; Fortitude 28, Refl ex 27, Will 27; see also squad defense
Resist 10 fi re
Speed 7, teleport 3
m Longsword (standard; at-will) ✦ Weapon
+21 vs. AC; 7 damage.
Squad Defense
The legion devil veteran gains a +2 bonus to its defenses when
adjacent to at least one other legion devil.
Alignment Evil Languages Supernal
Str 14 (+10) Dex 12 (+9) Wis 12 (+9)
Con 14 (+10) Int 10 (+8) Cha 12 (+9)
Equipment plate armor, heavy shield, longsword
Legion Devil Legionnaire Level 21 Minion
Medium immortal humanoid (devil) XP 800
Initiative +11 Senses Perception +11; darkvision
HP 1; a missed attack never damages a minion.
AC 37; Fortitude 33, Refl ex 32, Will 32; see also squad defense
Resist 15 fi re
Speed 7, teleport 3
mLongsword (standard; at-will) ✦ Weapon
+26 vs. AC; 8 damage.
Squad Defense
The legion devil legionnaire gains a +2 bonus to its defenses
when adjacent to at least one other legion devil.
Alignment Evil Languages Supernal
Str 14 (+12) Dex 12 (+11) Wis 12 (+11)
Con 14 (+12) Int 10 (+10) Cha 12 (+11)
Equipment plate armor, heavy shield, longsword
Legion Devil Tactics
Legion devils are regimented soldiers that work together to
overwhelm foes. They can teleport short distances to gain
flanking or position itself adjacent to an ally in order to gain
the squad defense benefit.
I think Wizards did an excellent job on the Minion concept. They are effective, dangerous, but easily dispatched as mooks should be.
Players arent going to want to turn their backs on them, but wont take forever carving their way through them. :-D
Yes, the best concept by far...
I just don't know. I just don't. There's something about the whole "one world for the PCs and another for the NPCs" thing that just rubs me raw. I don't know. I like the idea that games exist in worlds that are consistant. One point badguys who just exist to die flies in the face of all that.
On the other hand, the idea of not tracking minion hitpoints might just be better if you leave it at that. Rather than have them go down at the first stab, maybe just have them die when it feels like they should. Maybe? I don't know.
On the surface, this seems rather "chop saki" theatre to me. Or rather a lot like playing Xena, where minions get one "sokk!" and they're down.
It also brings to mind monsters from warcraft, where you might be fighting one bug and it spawns 2-4 tiny "biteys" that slow your attacks or interfere with spellcasting.
I guess it could be okay if my wizard gets an AoE or area-effect spell that could take them out.
Minor random thought: If Hit Points in 4E represent how lucky, fresh for a fight, and inspired someone is feeling, then does that mean that all minions (possessing only 1 Hit Point) are always horribly unlucky, exhausted, and feeling utterly demoralised?
Certainly not. If you read the excerpt carefully, it suggests that a non-minion monster at low level may be used as a minion monster at high levels.
Basically, the minion is just a more convenient statblock for the PC's current level. An 10th-level angel of valor (soldier) is worth the same XP than a 18th-level angel of valor legionnaire (minion). The first has good hit points and more variety of special abilities. The second dies with one hit, but has far better attack and defense values.
However, it's advised that you use the first statblock when building an encounter for 10th-level PCs, and the second statblock when building an encounter for 18th-level PCs, although the statblocks actually represent the same creature. Because, at least theorically, it's more fun that way.
Pitting five 18th-level minions against 10th-level PCs wouldn't be fun because PCs will almost never hit, and the monsters don't have any cool ability to surprise the PCs rather than "attacking". The PCs just wait to roll a high number on the dice to get an instant kill.
Pitting twenty 10th-level soldiers against 18th-level PCs wouldn't be fun because the enemies are slow to run because of their many special abilities and the need of tracking their large hit points. But in the other hand, they almost never hit the PCs, leading to a long and boring fight.
As for the flavor of hit points, I have always used the "bloodied" rule as an indicator to my group that a monster is now injured or showing signs of fatigue. A good example of this in the new Narnia movie (which is not very good but I digress). When the "hero" kid decides to duel the Telmarine king they go at it in full plate, both of them. The fight lasts quite a while and consists of them beating on each other with swords, shields, kicks, and punches. Each of these blows would deal hp damage, but doesn't necessarily draw blood or severely damage the person. Then the king knocks off the kid's helmet and the kid responds with a slash across the king's leg, drawing blood, and triggering the "bloodied" condition as a descriptor to the kid (or PC's, whatever).
So you gotta take hp with a grain of salt really. Our current DM for Keep on the Shadowfell is not really good at this yet, and constantly describes each and every blow as some kind of trauma to the body. If that were the case, each of our PC's would have about 6 javelins sticking out of them at the end of the first encounter, and the armored kobolds would be dead from about 5-10 wounds each.
Its much more realistic to say that your hits press back the monster, or force it to take blows on the arms or legs as it shields itself from your onslaught, than having every sword stab into the thing drawing 1d8 hp of blood out of the target. As long as your group knows you describe damage like this, they should not confuse their hits with damage resistance or stuff like that. Magic damage tends to be a hit harder to describe, but it can be done. Fire damage blisters or causes heat stroke, cold damage numbs the target or causes frostbite on one hand, acid damage burns through clothing or take off a patch of fur or hair, necrotic damage causes lesions or a fit of coughing, etc.
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The big problem with minions:
"Drop in one hit: the minion essentially does his job if it can keep a PC occupied for a turn. Depending on its level and role, a typical monster might take four to six basic attacks to knock out. To provide the same amount of challenge, a group of four to six minions should take about the same number of actions."
Why not just change the entire hit point system to a number of "Hits" required "to Kill" a particular "level and role" of creature, including a "PC"?
If 4E is about simplifying the game, that is rather obvious next step.
Eliminate all that math, and just cut the bookkeeping down to tracking how many times hits have been scored.
But then you'd run into problems with the class abilities. Why bother using the fighter's daily power to deal 6d6+3 damage if it deals 1 hit, the same as a regular 2d6+3 basic attack?
Plus rolling damage is just fun, as a player anyways.
I was trying to look at what is said about a creature, that it only had one hit point in the context of the 4E definition of hit points as far as I understood them to be- principally that hit points do not represent the ability of a creature to sustain significant physical injury, but how lucky, fresh, and confident they currently are. (Hence the way that PCs by taking actions that are inspirational can help restore hit points to other PCs during a fight, if I have understood correctly from some of the other reviews/articles which have been released thus far).
If I understand you correctly, you seem to me to be saying that as far as minions go Wizards of the Coast/Hasbro are ignoring their own rewritten for 4E definition of hit points (if I understood the 4E definition of hit points correctly) and that whilst minions in theory ought to have more hit points, they don't, because that would be 'boring'?
To put things in context, the original idea of WotC was to make minions without hit points at all, as shown on the previews from D&D XP. The "hit pointless" approach, however, led to inumerous internal inconsistencies between rules, which resulted in the final version with 1-hit point but immune to missed attacks' damage.
I wouldn't say that it "ignores" the definition of hit points. Hit points is the sum of the factors which compose the defensive ability of a characters (physical wounds, combat ability, luck, vigor, morale, etc.)
We could say that, in a relative sense, a minion has a level of combat ability far below than a PC of the same level - thus you may consider its hit point as 1 for purely the reason of speed up combats.
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But then you'd run into problems with the class abilities. Why bother using the fighter's daily power to deal 6d6+3 damage if it deals 1 hit, the same as a regular 2d6+3 basic attack?
Plus rolling damage is just fun, as a player anyways.
So a daily power can deliver 2 or even 3 "hits".
And yes, rolling damage is just fun.
Too bad it is skipped when attacking a minion.
But then you'd run into problems with the class abilities. Why bother using the fighter's daily power to deal 6d6+3 damage if it deals 1 hit, the same as a regular 2d6+3 basic attack?
Plus rolling damage is just fun, as a player anyways.
So a daily power can deliver 2 or even 3 "hits".
And yes, rolling damage is just fun.
Too bad it is skipped when attacking a minion.
But it isn't skipped at all. There are no name tags on monsters, or a "consider" ability that lets you know a creature is a minion. Everything should run more or less behind the scenes. The only damage rolls that have been eliminated are minion's own rolls, and that simply to speed up their use (since you generally have so many of them)
Cheers! :)
While this is true, I think people will be able to identify minions quite easily once combat begins. Still, creative DM's will probably come up with lots of great ways to throw a handful of minions into their encounters to spice em' up.
I can see it now. A simple encounter with 10 goblins wearing leather armor and wielding chipped short swords, with a single goblin in full chain with a big maul. PC's wade into the "minions" only to find out they were disguised soldiers with the minion wearing chainmail in the back :P
Can't wait!
(edited)
I am left with the impression that you appear to be advising me not to bother looking for ways to explain 1 hp minions in ways I might find fun to the game, because this is something which was inserted for metagaming design reasons and was never supposed to be built on.
:(
Hmm, it's exactly that. Well, at least it's what I understood from the excerpt.
I think the minion is a "metagaming" just like a "non-minion" is. If you are familiar with D&D abstraction of hit points, and you seem to be, then you imagin that no matter how many hit points Torrg the Orc have, a good sword blow can still split him in half (on 3.5E, either by a critical hit that does sufficient damage, by a coup de grace or sneak attack, or by a failed saving throw agains massive damage).
On 4E, if Torrg the Orc is a 3rd-level orc berserker fighting John the Human (a 3rd-level human fighter), then we assume that Torgg and John have a similar level of ability, and say, 40 hit points. On the game table, it means that Torgg and John can't kill each other immediately; they exchange sword blows, spend their stamina, inflict superficial wounds, and can only give the victorious blow when the opportunity present itself.
Now, suppose that John is a 12th-level fighter instead, but Torrg is the same level of ability than before. Instead of making Torrg a 3rd-level berserker, you make him a 12th-level minion now. Then, as John is much more skilled than Torrg, John can quickly kill Torrg with a well-landed sword blow, but Torgg alone can't do much against John.
However, when Torgg is aided by two dozens of warriors of similar ability, they can effectily make John spend his stamina and inflict superficial wounds on him - until John is exhausted and wounded enough that Torgg can finally get on the back of John and cut off his head.
Minions, non-minions, elites and solos are all "metagaming" of some sort. They are just suited to different situations.
I think everyone's familiar with the abstraction quality of hitpoints. It's an old chestnut from way back. I think the problem is the term absraction usually is used to represent a complex reality in a simple way. I don't see the hit point system ever having simplified anything. It makes battles take too long as both sides hammer away at each other like you're chopping wood. HP bloat has never helped the game--in fact I would say it's THE leading reason for the problems people have with fights taking too long. It's boring and unnecessary.
In some ways I like the idea that Sam Weiss is suggesting, that for purposes of mass combat, you drop from the idea of HP to the idea of Hits. Make it apply to everyone. Small weak characters like goblins, halflings, or whatever can only take a Minor Hit. Medium sized creatures can take a Major Hit. Really big things can take several Major Hits. Special abilities can add Hits. So now combat is fast and deadly and can be resolved for whole groups or even units fighting each other without a lot of the mess involved with tracking damage dealt and inflicted for every NPC in a whole battle. Hey at least you've got heroes wading into enemy formations, dropping foes with every swing of their sword. Maybe more characters will die too--but I don't know that I would hate that.
Certainly the idea that some guys exist in the RPG just to meep and get stabbed is pretty depressing. It makes the whole idea of fighting them a little less exciting. Like a fight against a guy you know was paid to throw the fight--less satisfying really.
That said, I understand the problem that fighting bogs down because of recordkeeping and applaud them for trying to tackle it in a novel way. I just don't know how I feel about the result. It's a bit too Dynasty Warriors for my taste. I'll try it out on D&D day, but yeah I'm still a little put off by it.
But then you'd run into problems with the class abilities. Why bother using the fighter's daily power to deal 6d6+3 damage if it deals 1 hit, the same as a regular 2d6+3 basic attack?
Plus rolling damage is just fun, as a player anyways.
So a daily power can deliver 2 or even 3 "hits".
And yes, rolling damage is just fun.
Too bad it is skipped when attacking a minion.
Yeah - but if this aspect really annoyed you its not like you'd ever have to use them. I think most groups will because its basically a way to allow the game to have lots of enemies but there is no absolute requirement to make use of them.
I pretty much agree with the philosophy behind them - I once played three sessions of my 5th level players wiping out an Orc stronghold. In total they killed 118 Orcs of various levels and abilities. It was kind of interesting and very much like a wargame (the Orcs where attacking from all directions and using ambushes and various defences) but it really was about how often I could roll a natural 20 except for a handful of higher level Orc NPCs.
I'd definitly embrace a system that let me do this sort of a scene with a little less to keep track of and this probably opens up some interesting options in terms of adventure scenes especially ones involving things like fleeing the evil strong hold. Minions in enough numbers are very dangerous since they can usually hit and deal reasonable damage (they just have glass jaws) so you can't just stand around and kill everyone.
You open up story possibilities like having minions getting in the way during the chase without having to deal to much with the complications and without the whole party needing to focus attacks on the bad guy to shave off all his hps.
Certainly the idea that some guys exist in the RPG just to meep and get stabbed is pretty depressing. It makes the whole idea of fighting them a little less exciting. Like a fight against a guy you know was paid to throw the fight--less satisfying really.
I'm going to disagree with you here.
I understand your looking for something thats both playable and yet has a feeling of verisimilitude. Thats fine but its not really where I'd like to go with the game - personally if its a storm trooper it dies when its shot by the hero - thats the nature of storm troopers. I'm looking for a game that provides me the tools to cover this aspect. The city guard is mostly minions - their main purpose in the game is to provide interesting chase scenes and to be dangerous in numbers.
All of that said one can simply choose never to use minions if this sort of thing really rubs you the wrong way.
The problem with hits is - as you seem to notice with major and minor hits - is that not everyone hits for the same damage. Of course we could have some abilities do two or more 'hits' with a successful attack. Essentially in this case we are back to hps but we are using a flat damage system instead of rolling for damage. Its got its points but I'll pass thanks.